The Curious Case of Anderson Varejao
2012-11-15After dominating the Nets last night, Anderson Varejao is once again on the trading block. Well not exactly, but there has been and continues to be a sizable collection of Cavs fans that wish it were so. All arguments go something like this: “Varejao isn’t getting any younger, he’s reckless and injury prone and is going to be a shell of his former self in 1-2 years when Kyrie/Dion/TT and company will be getting SERIOUS buckets (and please God some stops), @CavsDan will be emptying his wallet, and AC/Fred and crew will be back to calling playoff games. The future UncleDrew Army has no room for a grizzly ol veteran like Varejao and therefore the Cavs should trade him now while he’s playing like a top 3 center in the NBA and get something back.” yes, endquote
There are many that oppose this line of thinking, and some that follow the logic but just can’t bear to see a Cavs team without the Wild Thing and would rather he finish his career where he started it – maybe even with a large wig enshrined in the rafters. There’s a twitter poll up right now and the popular vote is almost as close as that nauseating election we somehow lived through. I guess that makes me a SuperPac. Time to move the needle. Let’s start with some “ fact-checking” since that’s all the rage. Or maybe a better phrase would be “exposing some myths”.
Myth1: Anderson Varejao is old. This should really read “Anderson Varejao is quickly becoming too old to be an effective NBA basketball player.” I rate this claim as Mostly False. Yes, there are studies showing that around age 30 basketball players start to head off into the sunset. And Andy just celebrated his 30th bday. But there are many interesting bits of information about Anderson Varejao that suggest he will buck this trend. Let’s start with the basics. Age matters, but so does mileage. So here’s your first trivia question. Which of the following players has logged the least NBA minutes? Anderson Varejao, Rudy Gay, Rajon Rondo, or Kevin Durant? Well if I created the question, you should be able to figure out the answer. So just let that sink in. Here’s the proof:
That was about as cut and dry objective as it gets. Easy stuff. So let’s wade into some murky waters. I’m no NBA scout – but even a dedicated fan can make basic observations about the game. What diminishes with age that would hurt an NBA player’s production? Quickness, leaping ability, stamina, and the body’s resiliency. A relatively recent obsession for “outside the box” training and nutrition have somewhat improved upon the resiliency problem. Stamina is managed with minutes, practice-waivers, and rest (Spurs have this perfected). So the main diminishing traits brought on by Father Time are loss of quickness and no more dunk contests. A lot of Cavs fans feel like they remember watching Shawn Kemp’s career die in front of them. It’s true in some ways, he was a shell of his Seattle self, but a 30-year old Kemp was still a warm body. Check out 31-year-old Kemp that the Trail Blazers inherited. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kempsh01/gamelog/2001/ But contrast that high-flying style, totally dependent on elite quickness and dominant athleticism, with Varejao’s game…
http://youtu.be/3dGLFCaYGKo
It’s mostly highly-skilled below-the-rim finishes around the hoop, an arsenal of off-balance hooks and up and under moves, and the occasional wide-open 15-foot jumper. Almost all of his baskets are assisted or off offensive rebounds meaning he doesn’t need to blow by a defender to create space for a shot. As a big man, he doesn’t grind away on the block in the low-post, it’s all backdoor cuts and constant movement. On the defensive end he makes a living outworking the competition, and it helps that he has good defensive instincts, a 7-foot wingspan, and there is no one better in the league at defensive position for taking charges, contesting, or boxing out. It’s pretty obvious that his success is rooted in skill (particularly his touch), will, size, and a very high bball IQ. None of these are going anywhere. There’s another player from another era with the same description, and wouldn’t you know it, he’s the first guy on this list! That’s right, Dennis Rodman. Comparing The Worm and the Wild Thing is pretty fascinating. Here’s a nice little career-comparing chart.
Rodman turned 30 in 91-92. That’s 3 whole years before he was the starting PF on the 2nd 3-peat Bulls. Food for thought. While we’re weighing the likelihood that Andy is moments away from slowing down and falling off the NBA’s age cliff, let’s take a look at a few Andy-specific trends. Here’s a chart showing his FT% as a function of age.
He’s gradually improved almost every year. This means a lot. He’s worked on his game to eliminate a liability. Not available in chart form is that he’s become a devastating pick and roll partner which is exactly what someone like Kyrie Irving needs. What I found most interesting, however, was that as his usage has increased, so has his efficiency. He spent many years living the backup role and it may have been easy to cast him as an “energy guy”. He’s spent the last 2 years playing starters minutes against starters and the results have been nothing short of all-star worthy recognition. Here’s a chart showing seasons sorted by usage and the accompanying player efficiency.
There’s really nothing to suggest that he’s about to start trending downward. If anything, his role has increased, he has a devastating PnR partner feeding him the ball in good position, and he’s making a living off of putting some fancy english on below-the-rim finishes. As of yesterday, he was 5th in the entire NBA in estimated wins added – he’s not even pumping the brakes. Now’s a good time to remind everyone that mostly-offensive stats like PER really do not capture all of Varejao’s value at the defensive end.
Myth2: Anderson Varejao is reckless and injury prone. I rate this as partially true, but the “Trade Andy” proponents act like he is some kind of injury outlier. Every team has injuries, and every player will go through various debilitating injuries throughout his career. In the case of Varejao, he does have a well-documented injury history. But the last one was a total fluke. Nothing about his style of play made someone go Tonya Harding bodyguard on his wrist during a routine rebound. Guys that are “injury prone” are guys with degenerative bodies. Think of Brandon Roy, Greg Oden, or even Z before Cleveland doctors fixed him – guys that have constant, nagging issues. (you might even put Boobie Gibson and all his high-ankle sprains into that group) Varejao’s injuries range from broken wrist to dislocated shoulder to broken cheekbone. Maybe his style has something to do with it (flying into the stands and diving on the floor) but in some of these cases clearly there is some bad luck involved. If he was dealing with a nagging knee or back injury every 6 months it’d be different story. Clearly, these injuries haven’t affected his play at all. When he’s out he’s out, when he’s in he’s getting better every day, playing more minutes and at a higher usage rate with the only side effect being a spike in PER as it were. This is not to say he won’t continue to suffer injuries, but what you really want to gauge is how they are affecting his play when he IS playing. And anyway, if he gets bed-ridden with poison ivy this year or next for a few weeks at the end of the season because of his “style” it’s just good tanking at that point, right? (Don’t think for one second I haven’t had to deal with that lazy excuse for why paying the Lakers to take Ramon Sessions was “good value”) [Don’t respond to that in the comments – it’s been covered and we all love future MVP Tyler Zeller, myself included]
Myth3: He’s more valuable as a trade asset than a future asset. PANTS ON FIRE FALSE! Andy is never going to net anything close to equal value in a trade and it’s because of perception, his role on the Cavs, his contract, and his potential suitors. Let’s just establish a basic common sense principle. If you own something that is ridiculously UNDERRATED you don’t want to SELL that. Andy is ridiculously underrated. In addition, the void he fills on the Cavs is immense. Marcin Gortat is a lot more valuable on the Suns that he was on the Magic. Can you even imagine the Cavaliers right now not only without their best player but splitting 96 minutes between Zeller/TT/Samuels? I’d be orders of magnitude worse than watching the backup PG torch-passing from Ramon Sessions to Donald Sloan. Here’s another way of thinking about it: if the Cavs adding Chris Paul to their current roster it would add less value than the difference between trading and keeping Varejao. The Cavs have no one even close to being able to replicate Andy’s skills/role on the team. Also, there is no real match between teams that need him and teams that can give the Cavs an attractive package. The Cavs SHOULD want a high round draft pick (top 15) and a legitimate NBA starter AT LEAST. Not only would zero GMs offer that if they COULD, but there are no good teams with the pick and no bad teams that would give up the young starter. Then there’s the issue of his contract. It’s almost a joke when you look at how little Andy makes for an established NBA Center. Roy Hibbert just landed a max contract. Varejao makes less than HALF that. Finally, it seems his reputation is forever stuck in “irritating flopper that lived off LeBron” (which is a total farce and shame) and NBA Coaches/GMs are as subject to irrational narratives as fans. This would further inhibit anything remotely approaching fair value.
To prove my point, consider two NBA players born just 4 days apart. Both have had at least 3 seasons where they missed more than 30 games. Their career player efficiency ratings differ by ½ of 1 point. Their career Offensive and Defensive Ratings are: [115,102] and [115,101]. Their Win Share per 48min are .153 and .151. Their career usage ratings are 14.0 and 13.9. (Is this getting crazy?!) They’ve both played between 1600 and 1700 playoff minutes with Playoff PERs of 13.4 and 13.5. They’ve both played center with an elite PnR point guard and coincidentally Byron Scott as head coach. (now you got it) Both players have current contracts that extend until 2015. One player has a max deal and would never EVER EVER be traded just because his “value is high”, or because he has a history of injuries, or because he was born during the first term of the Reagan presidency. That player is Tyson Chandler – NBA Champion X-FACTOR and absolutely critical to the New York Knicks playoff aspirations. And the other guy is (surprise) Anderson Varejao – the most criminally under-appreciated player in the National Basketball Association and a guy many Cavs fans wish management would dangle for little more than a 1st round draft pick! Grab an extinguisher and put your pants out!
Also, if we could get Peyton Hillis on the cover of Madden we can certainly get Varejao into the All-Star Game. Follow the Leader
The minutes argument makes no sense. Varejao has less minutes because he’s missed time with injuries. Not playing because you are hurt is not a sign that you will have a longer career. In fact, the opposite is true. And while I won’t argue too much about him not being injury-prone, again, missing significant time due to injury is still a negative. You make the assumption that everyone else in the league underrates Varejao like the fans do. I’d disagree, and besides it only takes one team to value him properly for a trade to happen. Also the Hibbert comparison… Read more »
Tom
I don’t think the Cavs of 2009 and 2010 had the talent to win the championship. They had LeBron and some dudes who were OK. The teams that won the championship those years were way more talented than the Cavs. It wasn’t veteran leadership that they needed. They needed another guy who was really really good at basketball.
Robin – good stuff, thanks for contributing. I will say much of this post is push back against that original quoted argument. Basically, he’s not part of the future so any value added matters not – trade him for something. And almost no critical thought is given to the something. “A first round draft pick”. I wouldn’t have written this post if I saw tons of Cavs fans demanding that Chris Grant offer Andy for Dwight Howard or K Leonard, Tiago Splitter, and 2 picks. But when it’s like “a late 1st round pick that might end up a d-league… Read more »
I don’t think it makes sense to take a hard line here. There’s an argument to be made for keeping Andy, but really only in relation to specific proposals. It doesn’t help to just say, “we could never get equal value”, or, “no other team fully appreciates his ability”. We know he’s an awesome player. He’ll be good for a few more years. He’s a fan favorite. And you don’t make trades just to make trades. But… This team needs a championship core. The argument that a lot of people are making — that he’ll still be a valuable role… Read more »
I don’t think it makes sense to take a hard line here. There’s an argument to be made for keeping Andy, but really only in relation to specific proposals. It doesn’t help to just say, “we could never get equal value”, or, “no other team fully appreciates his ability”. We know he’s an awesome player. He’ll be good for a few more years. He’s a fan favorite. And you don’t make trades just to make trades. But… This team needs a championship core. The argument that a lot of people are making — that he’ll still be a valuable role… Read more »
Also, Contractually, Andy at 9 million per, or Dwight Howard at 16+ or whatever he’s going to make next year…?
Tom Pestak
I realize that this is a stupid discussion because the Lakers are not going to trade Dwight Howard, but I don’t think there would be any hand wringing if he got traded for Howard.
@Cols – I’d trade Andy for Dwight Howard because he’s a generational superstar, but there would be some hand wringing. All this talk about Andy’s injuries, has anyone seen Dwight Howard? There’s a guy who struggles when he’s not healthy, and seems to be increasingly injury prone. Andrew Bynum is the same way. And while good Bynum is better than Varejao, bad Bynum is totally useless. As is injured Bynum. Nate is correct in that Varejao is the best center in the league right now. I doubt that will hold up as Dwight gets healthy but I wouldn’t be surprised… Read more »
Um
If you could trade Andy for Dwight Howard, who is considered by far to be the best center in the league, of course you do it.
Andy’s injury numbers are very inflated the last two years. I’m quite sure he could have come back last year if the team really wanted him to. Same thing the year before… And like Tom says, the injuries have been flukes. The wrist injury last year was not some reckless play, it was getting nailed on the arm by someone trying to dislodge a rebound. As for the Olympics argument: “As far as actual productivity is concerned, the Olympics would appear to have something of a positive effect, if anything. The average NBA Olympian saw a positive percentage change in… Read more »
Re: the argument that we won’t be true contenders for 3-5 years after andy’s prime is over. Before we can truly contend we need some playoff experience. Kyrie and Dion need to see what playoff basketball is all about, they need to try and fail a bit in the playoffs before we’re contending for rings. That needs to start happening next year hopefully. We need andy to get us there so our young guys can get a taste of games that matter
Good article. The point is not that Andy is untouchable or untradable, but that you most likely will not get equal value back right now. He can play roughly this well for another 3-5 years as he plays below the rim. There is most likely very littlle upside in trading him. The plan should be to keep him, hope that Waiters and Zeller pan out and TT fills his role, bring in a FA. If that happens we can make some serious noise. We would of course need to get rid of this rec league bench but that goes without… Read more »
On an unrelated note, Andy scored 35 points last nightcompared to Chandler’s career high is 27 points. He’s the second 30+ year old to put up 35 and 18 since the year 2000…the other being a fellow named “Shaquille O’Neal.” Only five other 30 year olds have had as many points and rebounds in their first 7 games, and none of them shot over 60% from the field. Only 3 other bigs over 30 have had as many assists and as few turnovers in their first 7 games, and none of them came close to Andy’s scoring and rebounding numbers.… Read more »
Also Durant (14), Gay (39 and Rondo (39) have missed 92 total games in 17 combined seasons not including this season.
Interesting note. It’s also interesting that Kareem (80), Garnett (91) and AC Green (84) combined missed only 255 games in 55 total seasons and Andy has missed 213 games in eight.
Year-NBA Champion’s Oldest Starter-Age 2012: Shane Battier ——————33 2011: Jason Kidd———————-38 2010: Derek Fisher——————–35 2009: Derek Fisher——————–34 2008: Ray Allen & Kevin Garnett —–32 2007: Bruce Bowen——————–35 2006: Shaquille O’Neal—————-34 2005: Bruce Bowen——————–33 2004: Gary Payton———————35 2003: David Robinson—————–37 2002: Rick Fox————————-32 2001: Horace Grant——————–35 2000: Ron Harper & A.C. Green——36 1999: Mario Elie———————–35 1998: MJ & Ron Harper—————34 1997: Dennis Rodman—————-35 1996: Dennis Rodman—————-34 1995: Hakeem & Clyde Drexler——32 1994: Hakeem & Otis Thorpe——–31 1993: Bill Cartwright——————-35 1992: Bill Cartwright——————-34 1991: Bill Cartwright——————-33 1990: James Edwards—————–34 1989: Bill Lambier———————31 1988: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar———40 (lol) 9 of the last 10 and… Read more »
Every player is tradeable. Wlit, Kareem, Shaq, and Lebron were traded. Way different circumstances than AV but he is tradeable. Andy does have fun hair and hustle, but it is better to trade a guy a year too early than a year too late. I’m still open to them trading Andy if they can get equal value. What is equal value for Andy? A young piece at a position of need or a good future lottery pick would be my asking price. A contender or a GM in survival mode are the only teams who will value him. He’d be… Read more »
Every player is tradeable. Wlit, Kareem, Shaq, and even Lebron were traded. Way different circumstances than AV but he is tradeable. An asset is only an asset for so long before it becomes worthless. Andy does have fun hair, but it is better to trade a guy a year too early than a year too late. I’m still open to them trading Andy if they can get equal value. What is equal value for Andy? Who would value Andy? He’d be perfect for any title contender. The Celtics have nothing to offer. The Clippers would be amazing with him, but… Read more »
i believe andy has actually been capable of playing at this level for some time, but due to limited usage (when everything ran thru lebron) and limited playing time from injuries (the last 2 seasons) so i challenge the idea that he is just now entering his prime regardless of what the box scores suggest. generally speaking, players start to see significant decline around their early-mid 30’s, and big men decline faster. it’s likely that anderson is on a similar trajectory. regardless, my position stands which is that if the right deal comes along, the cavs should trade him. but… Read more »
Teddy – you just answered your own impossible question. Guys don’t play the best ball of their career and then suddenly drop off a cliff. There is generally a performance curve and in many cases, after a few years of a downward trend, there can be a massive dropoff. All indicators are that he’s on an upward trajectory, possibly entering his “prime” as some would classify it. Guys don’t go from prime to retired in 2 years. And if you read the wages of wins article, many of the people that peaked late had one thing in common – they… Read more »
there are a million variables that can determine how a player’s body holds up over time, including conditioning, nutrition, genetics, off-season regimen, injury history etc. major injuries to backs, knees and shoulders can accelerate the breakdown process. age, not minutes played, impacts one’s ability to heal and rehabilitate from injuries as well as it impacts cell growth. with all due respect to the original poster, the reality is that nobody knows how long andy will be able to sustain this level of play, and no excel charts or player comparisons will help us to predict. There are far too many… Read more »
I’m not a big fan of looking at mileage instead of age. It seems to me that most NBA decline not from overuse, but because as you get older you get less athletic (or whatever term you want to use).
Obviously if we get a good deal, then we trade Andy. I agree with lowercase tom and don’t think Rodman/Chandler comparisons are really relevant. Andy doesn’t have a lot of NBA minutes but he does play for his national team most off-seasons, that’s a lot of mileage that should be considered. Also, I think hustle/energy guys have a harder time with father time than ‘power’/position guys like Chandler. I’m not in the camp of trading Andy, I think even 3-5 years from now when our core is starting to really peak and we’re ready to make a run, Andy can… Read more »
I know Cols, but it can be painful in the short term.
Nate
All of those make sense. I think the wisest path is the one we seemingly are on. Competitive this year but not really close to a playoff team, then really try to improve through FA in the summer of 2013.
The insane thing is that Andy has two more years at this contract. This, Kyrie, and Waiters’ low value contracts are why WIN NOW mode needs to start as soon as possible, late this year or 2013 (probably the latter). Getting maximum value out of Andy, TT, Kyrie, Zeller, and Waiters before their price goes way up allows us to overpay other guys for a couple years (front load contracts…) Who could we add this offseason, or before the deadline? Josh Smith? Andre Iguodala? O.J. Mayo? Corey Brewer? Shawn Marion? Marvin Williams? David West? Paul Millsap? Bynum? Al Jefferson? There… Read more »
whether or not we should trade andy depends entirely on what we can get for him, which is unknown. and so without an offer on the table, it’s an impossible question.
Just to clarify, I’m not saying we should definitely trade him. I can really see it either way and think it’s a tough decision.
Yes, tom lowercase
Chris I think Cols is appealing to lowercase tom.
Tom above is the same Tom that wrote the article
I don’t know. As fans we generally overrate our own players. It happens in every sport to pretty much every fan base. I think that’s what’s happening here with Andy. I think right now Andy is having an awesome year. I also think that comparing him to Dennis Rodman is a bit much. I think Tom above has the right take. He’s probably at peak value right now. If we are going to trade him, now would be the time. The thing is, the Cavs are not going to break the bank to sign him to a longer contract. Nor… Read more »
@Tom – actually, if we are nitpicking, his first three years aren’t his worst 3 years in terms of WS/48. His 2008-2009 Campaign (age 26) was one of his worst 3. And you can always make excuses why a player had a less than average year. Andy’s worst year was during that drawn out contract dispute (PER:12). The Mavs let Chandler walk and it was the difference between a Title and a 1st round sweep. My point wasn’t that Chandler is worthy of a max contract or is some kind of franchise player – it was that no one in… Read more »
THIS IS THE GREATEST POST EVER.
You hit on a great comparison with Collison, Jimbo. Collison is a very important part of what makes OKC so good, even with all their bigger name stars. His game is similar to what Varejao gives the Cavs. Right now Andy is the better player but if Andy starts to slow down in a couple of years it would be reasonable to expect him to be able to play to the level that Collison is currently at. With a reasonable contract, where is the downside in that? The Cavs are loaded with draft picks right now but lack players. Over… Read more »
Tyson Chandler and Varejao are not comparable players. Their career averages are misleading as Chandler entered the league 3 years younger and put up 3 below average seasons (they are his worst 3 seasons by WS/48). Remove them and you see a significant gap between the two players. Secondly Chandler will not be traded because he is on the Knicks because they are in win now mode, not win a little bit from now mode. Thirdly Chandler is on his 5th team in the league and has only been on the Knicks for slightly more than 1 season. He was… Read more »
Thanks Tom. Great post. Love the Rodman comparison, bringing up the Minutes played, the injuries being isolated incidents, and the fact that what he’s good at for the most part doesn’t diminish with age nearly as fast, and your analysis of the market for him.
To all you pro-traders, what say you now? And what sort of package would you take for Andy that is realistic?
Excellent post, he is as you put it “the most criminally under-appreciated player in the National Basketball Association”. If you don’t watch Cavs games night in and night out you just can’t appreciate how many points Andy himself shaves off the differential. I’d say hes worth about 8-10 pt difference on the scoreboard every night.
Yeah, I’m in the same camp. They should trade Boobie and/or Walton this season. I think some of the chatter you’re hearing is from Cavs fans who frequent the internet. Talk to the average Cavs fan and I think they’d go crazy if you talked about trading. On top of his popularity, it’s also incredibly valuable having an older veteran on a playoff team. Look at Nick Collison on the Thunder or, even better, Z on the LeBron Era Cavs. Hopefully Chris Grant sees the incredible value Andy brings to the team and keeps him around.
I remember when he signed that contract. Apparently the Cavs were being mugged overpaying for a such role player.
The critics were out in force.
Was this blog around when the Bobcats signed him to an offer sheet years ago? I seem to remember some fans saying that we were paying far too much for Andy at the time. It would be an interesting homage to him if someone had some links to stories about him back then.
Well done. A smart GM would have already stolen him from us if we weren’t lucky enough to have Ferry and then Grant. They aren’t about to get killed on a trade for a player as incredibly valuable as Andy. Andy is a basketball fan’s dream, (assuming said basketball fan actually understands basketball). Yes, I am blatantly stating that if you think we should trade Andy for anything that we would actually be able to get, (well outlined above) you don’t really know the game.
Another great post. Cavs The Blog on form.
There’s no need to trade Andy unless something AMAZING is coming back. And I can’t see where that’s going to come from. I think Chris Grant knows this. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater as they say.