Whither Kyrie?
2013-05-15I’ve been of two minds lately. My inner pessimist keeps spouting off: Kyrie Irving’s not good enough. He’ll never play defense. He likes making commercials more than making improvements. The half empty glass whispers, The Cavaliers would be better off trading Kyrie Irving. It’s a dialogue between doubt and faith.
Faith knows that Irving is as good a young offensive talent as has ever played in the league. His rookie numbers were up there with the all-time greats. But his sophomore season? He regressed in a couple of areas. His shooting splits dropped from .469/.399/.872 to .452/.391/.855 with his usage going up from 28.7 to 30.2, these are still fantastic numbers, and fairly minor fluctuations. His assist rate dropped from 36.5 percent to 32.7 percent, but his turnover percentage also went down from 16.1 percent to 13.8 percent. Irving passed a little bit less and shot a little bit more. Most of these changes were fairly unremarkable. And Kyrie once again led the NBA in crunch time scoring per 48 minutes.
2012-2013 NBA Season Crunch-Time Stats
Production per 48 Minutes of Clutch Time | ||||||||||||||||||
Team | Player | Gm | Min | +/- | +/- | Fga | Fg% | 3pA | 3p% | Fta | Ft% | Pts | Ast’d | Reb | Ast | T/o | Blk | Stl |
CLE | Irving | 35 | 130 | -20 | -7 | 38.8 | .467 | 11.1 | .300 | 17.4 | 80% | 53.6 | 10% | 5.5 | 6.7 | 10.0 | 0.4 | 2.2 |
2011-2012 NBA Season Crunch-Time Stats
Production per 48 Minutes of Clutch Time | ||||||||||||||||||
Team | Player | Gm | Min | +/- | +/- | Fga | Fg% | 3pA | 3p% | Fta | Ft% | Pts | Ast’d | Reb | Ast | T/o | Blk | Stl |
CLE | Irving | 24 | 78 | -18 | -11 | 34.9 | .544 | 3.7 | .667 | 17.8 | 89% | 56.4 | 19% | 8.6 | 3.7 | 4.3 | 0.0 | 0.6 |
But his efficiency dipped considerably. Irving was ridiculously good in 2011 and clearly expected the same success this season. But he was much better at shooting, rebounding, and not turning the ball over in crunch-time during his rookie season.
He was a turnover machine at the ends of games his year. 10 turnovers per 48 is awful, and a .67 assist to turnover ratio is Drew Gooden territory. Much of this was due to the fact teams figured out how to defend Irving: trap him high, and force him to give up the ball or try to make a hero play. If Byron Scott deserved to be fired, one of the key reasons was that he let Kyrie develop some very poor late-game habits. Kyrie is not good at passing out of high double teams. He doesn’t get any zip on the ball: he loops it or jumps to pass, and the ball gets picked off a lot. He also overdribbles, and more than once dribbled off his foot in a key moment, or stumbled and threw up a weak shot as time expired. He hasn’t yet adjusted to the defenses teams throw at him when the Cavs absolutely need a bucket.
These are the sorts of scenarios Irving will encounter with increasing frequency if the Cavs grow over the next few seasons into a perennial playoff team. Which brings me to another troubling fact: the NBA playoffs historically belong to big men. The ability to get a shot up over the defense is key to winning and winning consistently, and being inordinately tall just helps. Of the last 23 NBA champs, only one team has featured a point guard as its best player: the 1989-90 Detroit Pistons, who featured Isaiah Thomas. The 2004 version of Chauncey Billups might have some claim to that mantle as well, and Tony Parker nabbed a Finals MVP in ’07, but neither player was head and shoulders above everyone else on their team the way Thomas was, or the way Kyrie is. (Plus, Chauncey had Sheed, Parker had Duncan, and Isaiah… well, prime Isaiah was a transcendent player.) If Chris Paul’s brief Clippers tenure proves anything, it’s that it’s hard to dominate in the NBA playoffs if your best offensive player is a point guard.
And we all know and bemoan Irving’s defense, as late as April 5th, Kyrie was guilty of inexplicably lazy defense. Those games didn’t matter in any tangible sense—the Cavs were firmly in the hunt for lottery balls by the time April rolled around—but in a game the Cavs eventually won, Kyrie docilely stared at a Jason Terry fourth quarter three from the left block. I said in November that, “Kyrie’s sins aren’t sins of execution or understanding, they are failures of effort, focus, attention, and accountability. If he doesn’t fix the way he plays defense, he will not win. It’s as simple as that.”
But, Kyrie did get better since I penned these two pieces (part 1, part 2). Take Kyrie’s Synergy stats in comparison to a player whose defense I respect a lot, Eric Bledsoe. (Irving’s numbers are on top, in the white rows.)
Here, Kyrie is comparable to Bledsoe. He has much better numbers against isolation, but I’m betting a lot of this is because Irving consistently gets put on the worst isolation offensive player and is often helped with double teams (which would explain Kyrie’s 19 percent defensive turnover rate against isolations), whereas Bledsoe is consistently put on above-average isolation players. If we compare some other numbers, we see that Bledsoe holds opposing point guards to 14.9 PER, while holding opposing shooting guards to 22.7 PER. He also helps his team defend 4.9 points per 100 possessions better when he is on the floor. Irving, by comparison, holds opposing point guards to an 18.1 PER, and his team defense is 2.1 points per 100 possessions worse when he’s on the floor. But the difference isn’t as stark as you might think, and .87 points per possession by Kyrie is a lot better than I thought he’d be before I looked at the numbers. It has been clear in limited stretches that Kyrie can play defense when he wants to, with focus and effort.
It’s also clear that, at times, he sticks to screens like they’re made of fly paper, makes horrible defensive pick and roll decisions, and gives up on plays. What frustrates people is that Kyrie doesn’t seem nearly as focused on improving as a player as some of his peers. Damian Lillard is rumored to be locking himself in the gym with Gary Payton this summer to learn defense. Steph Curry is currently leading the Warriors on an extended playoff run. Meanwhile? Kyrie Irving is doing clinics, making a paid appearance at Interop for Cisco, and has plans to teach Kangaroos how to dunk down under. My worry is Kyrie is satisfied with where he is as a player and doesn’t seem to be willing to put in the work to be anything more than a friendlier and better shooting version of Allen Iverson—that Kyrie thinks it’s all about gettin’ buckets, not preventing them…
OK, That’s an unfair criticism. Kyrie’s not stupid — far from it. Kyrie has to know that the key to being a great player, is learning to play defense, and learning to be an elite point guard — not just an elite scorer. Knowing what one needs to do in order to improve, and having the will, desire, and the ability to accurately self-evaluate in order to make those changes, are very different things, and those things take time. Kyrie has a reverence for Malcolm Gladwell and his theory that it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert at something. According to Kyrie, he put 10,000 hours into basketball by the age of 19. If he has that kind of dedication to being a great basketball player, he’ll put in the next 10,000 hours to be a winner.
But I fret, because that’s what fans do: what if Kyrie has peaked? What if he has put in his 10,000 hours, and he’s done growing as a player? What if he’s happy where he’s at: all star, ankle breaker, commercial maker…? Of course my expectations are immense, and completely unfair. Look, Kyrie’s going to be a very good player. it’s just that he needs to be really freaking great if the Cavs are going to win a title with him. and even then, he’ll need help.
If the Cavs are smart, they will realize that Irving’s preternatural abilities come with preternatural weaknesses. He’ll never get to be a good defender. He’ll never be able to get his shot off consistently in crunch-time. He’ll never learn how to pass hard out of the double team.”
You’re a 37-year-old blogger from Alaska who hacks everything that moves in pickup games. What do you know about being a 21-year-old millionaire basketball prodigy? Damian Lillard is a year older. Steph Curry is 25. Give Kyrie time. He’ll learn. Just because he’s not giving interviews to Spin Magazine about summer training with Gerald, ‘The Jordan Buster’ Wilkins, doesn’t mean that he’s not working on defense. KI logged 10,000 hours in the gym before he went pro. That’s dedication, Holmes.
What if the Cavs’ best option is to trade him now, and build the team around a lesser point guard and an all-star big man? Could they flip Kyrie and the #19 pick into Al Horford and Eric Bledsoe, then try to trade for Gasol or Pierce? Will they some day be settling for the four quarters for a dollar trade that Oklahoma City got for Harden, the hodge podge of young assets Orlando got for Dwight Howard, or the near-nothing Cleveland got for LeBron James…? What they really ought to do is trade Kyrie for a shot or two at Wiggins or Jabari Parker…
You’ve been spoiled. Even if everything works out perfectly, it’s going to be a long climb. The Cavaliers aren’t taking the Heat to game six of the conference finals in two years. Do you know what kind of effort that is going to take? Look at what the greats had to do to to get to the finals: LeBron in 2007: 25 points, 8 boards, and 8 assists. He was 23. Dwyane Wade in ’06? 28.4/5.9/5.7 and 2.2 steals. He was 24, and he had Shaq at the end of his prime. How about Tim Duncan? In his first finals, ’99? 23.2/11.5/2.8 with 2.6 blocks, and the Admiral playing on his team. In 2003? 27.6/14.4/5.0 plus 4.3 blocks. Duncan was 23 and 27. Holy pantheon. It’s obvious that this kind of greatness doesn’t even start till 23. The lone exception to this? Magic Johnson, who was 21 in his first finals team, but that Lakers team was loaded, and Magic is 6’9″. Kyrie’s development has been matched only by the all time greats. He’ll do his part. The rest of his game will get there, and everything else is up to his teammates and the organization. If there’s anything Mike Brown can teach young players, it’s how to guard the pick and roll. Don’t let Mike’s fart-whiff face get you down. No one ever succeeded without failing first.
ARGH we’re all guilty of irrational optimism. We’re going to be spending the next few years waiting for some other shoe to drop. But despite my well reasoned malaise, there’s no way the Cavs are trading Kyrie any time soon. Still, I can play with the trade machine to get multiple all-stars for Irving. Meanwhile, the wallabies better be helping Kyrie channel his inner Mookie Blaylock.
@ KyrieSwIrving I was incorrect. The Celtics were a half game over .500. Having over half of the leagues teams make the playoffs is ridiculous in any sport. Take a look at the league standings for a moment. 17 teams were .500 or better. Considering the rampant tanking and have nots of the bottom feeders it is an embarrassment that teams under .500 made the playoffs. There were 9 teams this season with 29 or fewer wins and six teams over 55 wins. It’ my own judgement, but a really good season for a team is winning 55 or more… Read more »
I have the same concerns everyone else has regarding Kyrie (injuries, poor defense, a bit of an attitude lately), but I am also optimistic that two of those three issues can be fixed. If there’s one thing Mike Brown can do, it’s coach defense. Let’s remember that the Cavaliers started Mo Williams, Antawn Jamison, and Shaq in Brown’s last year and still had a very good defense. As far as maturity goes, Kyrie has had no major issues, just a few hiccups. Part of this is being a 21 year old millionaire, and I believe he will grow out of… Read more »
Meant anyone, not everyone… Cough CoryHughey Cough…
If wade missed all the games, which I don’t think he will, then the Pacers would have a real chance at winning the series. What I think will happen? Heat in 5 or 6. I’m very interested to see what happens with GS-SA-Memphis out west though. I am really rooting for the excellent shooting pg Warriors to come out of the west, for some reason…
Everyone saying its embaressing to have a below .500 team make the playoffs isn’t very good at math. If 16 of 30 teams make the playoffs, you are usually going to have one losing team make it. And then there is this thing called variance, where sometimes you’ll have two or three losing teams, and sometimes you’ll have none. In the NFL such a claim holds, where only 12 of 32 teams enter the postseason. NBA? Not so much.
No chance whatsoever that Miami sweeps Indiana. Tom, you’re really sleeping on this Pacers team. They play excellent defense, their offensive production has picked up significantly since the All Star break, and they have a recent history of causing Miami some problems (last postseason and this regular season).
Miami in 6. If Chicago can take a game from Miami in the depleted state that they are in, then Indiana is definitely capable of taking two games from the Heat.
Ross – I guess we’ll see. Feel free to show me up in the comments if Miami loses twice.
Indy is better than they were last year when they took Miami 6 games. If Wade is hurt, that’s a really competitive series in my opinion
I’ll go with Heat over Pacers in 6 but it is going to be just as physical as the Bulls series for Miami. The Heat haven’t really been challenged yet. The Bucks shouldn’t have made playoffs. It’s an embarrassment than a team under .500 can go let alone two from the East. The Bulls went out in five games, but Miami had to earn it. Indy is just as physical as Chicago maybe more so. Christina Bosh is going to need an ice bath after every game.
@ Tom
Sweep Indy?!?!
I can’t see that happening.
If LeBron playing center won’t work against Gasol/Randolph, how effective will it be against Hibbert/West? Paul George has made things difficult on Melo so far, and could do the same for LeBron. You’re probably going to see a lot of ugly b-ball in that series (again, assuming). That works in favor of the Pacers.
Cody – yeah I’m calling the sweep. Maybe Indy steals one game kinda like Chicago did.
Hibbert and West might get theirs – but LeBron is going to shut down Paul George. Indiana doesn’t score enough to keep up with Miami.
The Grizzlies are better top to bottom – the only area they are lacking is outside shooting – but they are the only remaining team that can give Miami trouble. I think they could take 2 games from the Axis of Evil.
@ Nate – I probably take stats as slightly less important than you do. I’m not trying to downplay Steve Nash. He’s one of the best players to play in the NBA over the last 10 years. He’s a freak. Handles are handles, and are separate from passing skills. Kyrie routinely splits double teams, breaks ankles, weaves and dices through 2-3 defenders on his way to off-balance, “how did he do that?” layups off the backboard from weird angles. Steve Nash was great, but he does not have the handles that Kyrie does. Also, Kyrie has zero teammates to help… Read more »
@ Gordon
Let me rephrase something I said yesterday: I don’t think you can win an NBA title with Kyrie Irving as your best player. Too small, too injury prone, not a competent defender on his best day.
If he fixes the defense and stops getting nagging injuries constantly, I might change my mind. Until then, I want to build a team where Kyrie is the sidekick.
In that respect, he’s similar to Wade, who has now won two titles as a sidekick to a more dominant player.
@ Cory Hughey I think Memphis and Indiana are very similar. Both play a slow tempo, have centers that can score, and have good defense on the perimeter. Both could give Miami a challenge if they limit transition points and force Miami to play half court. Neither team could run with the Heat. It will be interesting to see how Miami plays Hibbert and Gasol (assuming those teams advance). Last season, Miami fronted Hibbert with Haslem. Indiana had no luck getting the ball to him on the block and their offense bogged down. The Pacers will have to move the… Read more »
I think Memphis is a much better team than Indiana. Miami is gonna sweep Indy. But Memphis could make them work especially if they get physical. Zach Randolph thoroughly devastated OKC’s long/athletic/not-necessarily-big defense – Miami plays the same way. The whole “LeBron playing Center” thing works against most teams – it’s not going to work against Randolph/Gasol.
Gordon, your arguments are unfounded. Thank you Nate, you concisely put things in perspective. This isn’t Globetrotters, the point of having any skill is how you can leverage it into a win, and Nash was far superior at leveraging his handle, his finishing, and his outside shooting into wins than Kyrie. On the bright side, his defense never was much better than Kyrie’s is now. Vesus. Last thing I’ll say on the subject. Yes, if Lebron comes back in 2014 everything will be pretty hunk dory (except maybe for Tristan, I’m with you Hughey. Lebron isn’t dumb and knows his… Read more »
I think it’s easy to forget how good Steve Nash really was, especially due to him being on the worst best team ever, and 2 terrible Phoenix squads for the past 3 years. I think that Kyrie’s numbers dropped because we lost Antawn Jamison who in his last season with us still made other teams respect his shot which opened the floor up a little better than having to guard Tyler Zeller (who pretty much was playing with 0 confidence after Varejao went down) and even though Thompson became a much better offensive player that isn’t saying much because if… Read more »
Sorry, Gordon, but you’re wrong. You’re overstating Kyrie and understating Nash. In Nash’s best season, 2006-2007 he shot .659 at the rim, .553 from from 3 to 10 feet, and .458 at the three point line, and routinely shot out to 27 feet. Kyrie shot .614 at the rim his rookie year, and .574 this year. He’s never come come close to shooting .458 from three and doesn’t have nearly the midrange game that Nash did in his prime, and Kyrie’s midrange game is pretty good. Kyrie’s a fine player but to say that he’s a better finisher at the… Read more »
@ Nate – the comparison is only comical if you take what I said, twist it, and imply that I said something different. I simply stated that Nash does not have the shooting range that Kyrie has. This is true. I also stated he does not have the handles that Kyrie has. This is also 100% true. Now, when you bring passing into the mix (which I did not touch on at all), sure, you have a point. When you bring MVP awards into the mix (which I did not touch on at all), sure, you have a point. But… Read more »
This video shows me he’s hungry!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAY7ki7TOtU
now can we get the “All star” to work too?
Waiters looks like hes already in great shape and this was 2 weeks ago. J is much more upright.
Not that I think Memphis will win the title, but they would be an interesting matchup for Miami. I just don’t know where the Heat will be after back to back to back series against Chicago, Indiana and Memphis.
I thought before Lebron left that as he aged he’d move more into the 4 spot. He could have a much longer prime than the average player. Even if his agility and speed slip, he’ll finally be above normal NBA players. His passing ability would expose open 3’s on the wings and for the other big when the doubles come.
It’s nothing but speculation on my part, but if Lebron actually came back I wouldn’t think that Porter (if they drafted him) would be the odd man out…Tristan would.
Thanks for all the feedback guys. I do have to point to one number that I found fascinating from this year: Kyrie Irving’s P&R ball Handler stats from Synergy. Kyrie was actually, not very good in the pick and roll this year. Overall, he scored .95 points per possession, which wasn’t bad. He was best in isolations, spot-ups, post-ups, and in transition, but in the pick and roll? .81 points per possession, %40 field goal percentage and 17% turnover rate. Synergy doesn’t track assists out of the pick and roll well, but Kyrie’s turnover rate in this play as well… Read more »
Interesting thought about Lebron becoming a PF on the back nine of his career Cory. I personally don’t think LBJ like to mix it up and that his next moving decision my be based on going somewhere that he can avoid becoming a PF. A team with Dwight or other forces inside might have a lot of appeal for him.Is that a reason for the Cavs needing to draft several developmental bigs in this draft?
Right now, I’m cautiously chalking up Kyrie’s poor (by his standards) offensive season to Coach Scott being a horrible coach. Watching the Cavs offense last season was like watching a play where none of the actors was given a complete script and only a few of them were any good at improv.
Totally agree with Versus on this one. I still think it’s a long shot that Lebron comes back to Cleveland but he is opting out of his contract and the primary thing on his mind will be his legacy and finding a place to have a second dynasty. Once Wade’s athleticism goes, he won’t be Wade. Period. His entire game is based on him beating his man off the dribble, drawing contact and getting to the free throw line. Battier is a terrific role player for Lebron and as Lebron ages he’s probably going to become more of a PF.… Read more »
@ KyrieSwIrving – my point was that no team can win a ring when it has one player “head and shoulders” above the rest. Other guys need to step up. LeBron James, a guy who will go down as the 1st or 2nd best player in NBA history, could not win a ring without Wade + Bosh. Wade is another HOF’er and Bosh an all-star. Dirk won a ring with 1) a total choke job by Miami and 2) huge contributions from Terry and the gang. My biggest point is that Kyrie Irving does not need a Batman (aka, he… Read more »
Sign Lebron and any absurd talking of trading Kyrie vanishes like a fart in the wind.
I don’t think anyone is promoting the idea of trading Kyrie as a frontline plan of action. It is just something that has to be considered as the rebuild continues. The evolution of thought on this concept in the NBA has been rapid in light of what happened to Cleve with LBJ, then how well Denver and Utah handled their similar situations with their stars. Even though trading Kyrie is not a good plan in itself it could come to fruition as the best couse of action as things unfold.
@ KyrieSwIrving Yes, people have been saying this about Wade for several years now. Have you noticed his lack of contribution these playoffs and the constant chatter about his injured knee? About Battier: he isn’t some young guy who will be around for years with Lebron. Kyrie is. To compare Kyrie and Battier is just absurd for many reasons; skill level, age and role on the team being the 3 biggest. Besides, Battier will probably retire after his current contract ends. And yes, Wade is a far superior defender to Kyrie. No argument there. But about Kyrie’s willingness to pass,… Read more »
Lebron or no Lebron trading Kyrie now (especially for the proposed Horford and Bledsoe deal in which we for some reason would also have to include the 19th pick in the draft) for anything less than a sure fire superstar is crazy.
And the chances we get anything near to equal value for Kyrie is slim. Look at the recent trades that involved superstars. None of the teams got what anyone would consider equal value for them.
people have been saying Wade’s knee this, Wade’s knee that, for about 3 years now. We’ll see what comes of it. Also, Kyrie is about 1/100 the defender wade is, bad knee and all, and his offense won’t be nearly as important with lebron on the team. If I were Lebron, I’d rather have a guy like Battier on my team, a versatile defender who can hit the open 3, than Kyrie who will only unnecessarily stop the ball and try to do things on offense that don’t involve Lebron. Everyone keeps mentioning how kyrie can drop dimes and just… Read more »
@ KyrieSwIrving Yes, Lebron tore our hearts out once. And he did it because he felt he didn’t have the help here to win a title. He felt he needed to leave to win a ring and (guess what?) he was 100% correct. Things are a little different now. This team isn’t a bunch of washed up vets. We have a ready-made star sidekick in Kyrie Irving for Lebron to extend his title window beyond the career of Wade and Bosh. If you don’t think that will factor into his decision (along with the rapid decline of Wade’s knees) then… Read more »
I assume many of you (including the writers) have never lived in Cleveland. I thought this was a good read:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/14/sports/cleveland-sports-disappointing-fans-since-1964.html?_r=0
I don’t really understand how you can be Cleveland fans and really debate trading Kyrie. Is this just fantasy basketball to you guys? We just got through 3 really crappy years of basketball and one of the only saving graces was having a guy named Kyrie freakin Irving on our team, the rookie of the year, ankle breaker, dead-eye shooter, dime dropper even though we don’t have anyone to pass to, the only guy we have who actually gets some respect anywhere. And he’s ours! A big part of being a fan for me is being a fanatic, abandoning reason… Read more »
Really good balanced post that I thoroughly enjoyed reading, Nate.
Like it or not, there is a ying/yang to everything and this article brings up a lot of interesting facts that Grant has to deal with as the rebuild train moves forward.
Asa Scott apostle, I found the insight about Byron letting Kyrie develop bad habits at crunch time enlightening. There is truth there, coupled with a need to force the defense issue, that gives me some comfort with the coaching change.
grover13-
So he needs a turnaround? I’m sure he can do that :)
SwIrving- Going to have to disagree with you a bit there on the ball-dominance of PGs. Go and look at the Lakers with Kobe or the Mavs with Dirk. While they aren’t “pounding the ball at the top of the key”, they are ball dominant. Usually it’s one of them holding on to the ball for 5-10 seconds on the wing, either posting up or face-forward, throwing jabs and pump fakes to see if they can get a defender to give them something. If they can’t….then they are able to shoot over their defender. You can’t run a double team… Read more »
Mike Conley and Stephen Curry are still improving and both are 25. Kyrie is farther along at 21 than either of those players by a mile. His defense is terrible. If he becomes an above average team defender that will be good enough. Most point guards aren’t terrific defenders. Many of the upper echelon point guards in league history weren’t elite defenders (Stockton, Downlow Johnson, Nash..). If anything these playoffs have reaffirmed that the Cavs are on their way to relevancy thanks to the success of the Warriors. I don’t think Stephen Curry can do anything that Kyrie can’t. I… Read more »
With all due respect to the writer of this article… The argument is weak in regards to his stats. I’m not in any way a stat expert or watch and evaluate players, but I’m sure part of the answer is fairly simple– defenses focused more on Irving, which equates to more turnovers, etc… He has gaps in his game, that’s a fact, but the true measure is if he can adjust in his third year as a pro. If he regresses even more in all your mentioned stats, then we have a little problem, because that means he has not… Read more »
Grover, I appreciate the agreement, but I have a slightly different view on why it is elite PGs struggle in the playoffs. Height is nice, but I think it has more to do with elite PG’s tendency to hog the ball. Dallas didn’t have any sort of tall primary ball handler, they just knew they had to move the ball around a lot to get good shots and they could rely on dirk should other things fail. But it wasn’t dirk pounding the ball at the top of the key being super predictable every time down the court. Boston had… Read more »
Gordon, Lebron and Dirk are/were head and shoulders better than anyone else on their team. Wade and tyson chandler are certainly a lot better than what lebron was working with in Cleveland, but there is very significant drop off in talent. I don’t think Kyrie will ever be good enough, due in large part to the position he plays, to have that kind of drop off behind him. Everyone can predict future events Vesus, that’s an enormous part of what makes us human. We may not be right, but I’ll take my chances. You can continue to think we have… Read more »
Even if you have doubts about the ability to win a championship with Kyrie as your best player trading him now is insane. He is a 21 year old ALL STAR. Everyone else who made the All Star team this young is a first ballot hall of famer. I’m not saying that guarantees Kryie to going down that path, but to freak out and trade him after year 2 because you are convinced that PGs cant lead a team to victory would be idiotic.
Good thing you guys know what Lebron is thinking. Can I have the winning lottery numbers for next week?
Oh, and can you tell me how much longer Wade’s knees will allow him to be an elite performer? Thanks. I was actually going to wait to find out, but apparently the commenters here can predict future events.
Oh yeah, and about Kyrie running around and teaching basketball to people, don’t think that this doesn’t have its uses. I mean, sometimes teaching someone else something is the best way to learn for yourself. So if he’s over there showing them where to be and how to do the things he knows he’s supposed to do, maybe that will help him while actually playing basketball too.
The argument that we cannot win a title with Kyrie being “head and shoulders above the rest of the team” is kind of dumb. LeBron James was “head and shoulders above the rest of the team” in Cleveland and failed. Any all-star talent that is “head and shoulders above the rest of the team” is going to lose, because that would indicate a severe drop off in talent. If Dion, TT, this year’s #1, and FA in 2014 all turn out to be mediocre players, then we won’t win. If they hit their stride and are all-star caliber players, Kyrie… Read more »
I want Kyrie Irving to be the 2nd best player on this team. This is why I am so in favor of bringing Lebron back. If Kyrie is the sidekick, then you have a title favorite.
———-
It’s awesome that you’re in favor of it. Unfortunately, when LeBron is headed for title number 4 in a row, he’s not going to be.
clevyxc- Did you notice the irony in your own argument? In your first paragraph, you make the argument of contending teams with great point guards. You then start your second paragraph with “If you look at the teams that have one championships….”, and list the top-three of four perennial contenders- only one of which had an all-star PG (Parker). I am firmly on SwIrving’s side….your primary offensive weapon needs to be a ball handler with size to win championships. When it gets to one-on-one situations against the top defenses in the league in crunch time, lack of height is simply… Read more »
Vesus, yes, if Lebron came back it would make us title favorites. Duh. The same could be said about any team this side of Charlotte. Its not happening though, so get over it. He chose Miami to have a better chance at winning championship, to live the high life in a beautiful, rich, warm city, and to play with his best friends. In 2014 Miami will still be better for him in all 3 regards. The man has a strong desire to be loved, and a real connections to Northeast ohio, yes, but that was true the last time he… Read more »
I do agree that picking up elite talent is the most important thing, but its not the only thing. What that talent is specifically good at is very important too, and I’d prefer it be good at playoff basketball over box-score stuffing regular season stats. If it can do both? Great.
I want Kyrie Irving to be the 2nd best player on this team. This is why I am so in favor of bringing Lebron back. If Kyrie is the sidekick, then you have a title favorite.
I don’t see the Cavs ever being elite title contenders with Kyrie as the “head and shoulders above the rest” best player.
Clevyxc, Lebron is not a “Short Primary ball handler”, and he doesn’t control the ball as much in miami as he did in cleveland, which not so coincidentally coincided with him winning a championship. That D-Rose led team got beat in 5 games by Miami while holding home court advantage. Westbrook certainly helped the Thunder contend, no doubt, but he’s not OKC’s best player. Jason Kidd, hell even Derek fisher helped their teams win championships. I’m not trying to say pg’s are useless, they are very useful. Just saying its hard to win with them as your clear cut best… Read more »
The plan, still, is to lure a max-caliber free agent to the Cavs in 2014. Kyrie will be considered a top 2-3 PG in the league at that time. Waiters might be a 18-20 PPG scorer, TT a nightly double double, and Porter/Bennett/Oladipo another big time piece with a high ceiling. The plan is to have a ton of young talent on this team, and if the cards fall in place, have a possibility of signing a superstar in 2014. If that happens, we’ll have arguably the best roster in the NBA. We are not trading Kyrie, and we aren’t… Read more »
I look at it this way, as of right now we have an allstar PG, a SG with oodles of potential who’s already back in the gym, a starter at SF coming through the draft, what amounts to a more athletic young Antawn Jamison (goofy shot comparison) who actually plays defense, and a top 5 center for about 50-60 games and a young athletic 7ft player who was thrown to the lions much too early. I’m ok with that honestly, with the right off-season moves, which of course I mean any moves, I don’t see any reason why this team… Read more »
Swirving- You could count Lebron as a PG-type. Also, I wouldn’t say those teams necessarily fade: DRose-led Bulls were one game from going to the Finals in 2010, Westbrook isn’t the A option but still should get credit (especially after watching the Thunder in this year’s postseason) for the Thunder’s Finals appearance last year, Tony Parker is probably the A option on the Spurs at this point and really is the primary reason for them being a factor. If you look at the teams that have won championships, they’re mostly built on the “Big 3” concept (except for Dallas). Duncan,… Read more »
But yeah, Trading Kyrie is not going to happen. And I’m still hopeful Kyrie will become the player he’s capable of being. But his year one to year two improvement isn’t going to cut it. Enter Mike Brown.
Loved this article. Great research – great dialogue. But, I’m confused, if this article is about Kyrie Irving, why do you have two pictures of Sam Cassell at the top?
Um, no, not a terrible article. Good lord, is a man not allowed to offer a doubting viewpoint around here? Especially one that also presents the optimistic counterarguments?
“a league increasingly centered on great PGs” I think this is the whole point of contention right here. The league has a lot of great PG’s who do a lot of great things in the regular season, yet when was the last finals team, let alone champion, to have their PG be indisputably there best player? Billips in 04 was highly debatable, and the last before that was Isiah Thomas. Not exactly a PG’s league. When Defenses ratchet up effort and game plan against you, size becomes more important, post defense becomes more important, and consistent unpredictable ball movement becomes… Read more »
HE. IS. 21.
No…trading him would absolutely be the worst possible move this franchise could make. He literally just finished his 2nd year of pro ball, and you’re worried about a couple of percentage points in his shooting efficiency and AST%? Come on.
Terrible article.
To DC Browns,
You nailed it. Next step-get the SF(Porter) in the draft…….
“The half empty glass whispers, The Cavaliers would be better off trading Kyrie Irving. It’s a dialogue between doubt and faith.”
This isn’t the voice of the half empty glass, this is the same voice that tells you maybe jumping off the bridge would just be better for everyone.
When you have one of the best PGs in the league — a league increasingly centered on great PGs — you leave that player alone and focus everything on getting better at the other positions. Period. Do not engage the dark voices of doubt. Chris Grant, and the fans, just need to worry about the other 4 positions with every waking moment. We’ve seen this before: Mike Brown coaching a team that has a transcendent offensive talent. He can install a team defensive concept that will result in a top-10 defense. You can be a respectable team right off the… Read more »