5:34 Remaining in the First Quarter
2013-11-18Author’s Note: This article was conceived on Saturday morning, for publishing early Monday. I hadn’t started as of 7:00 pm Sunday though, as Mallory inquired about posting the podcast Monday. I replied, “Absolutely”. Some of the discussion / questions below about the players only meeting and aftermath are slightly dated. Time moves fast in a basketball hot-spot like Cleveland.
After the fifth game of the season, Dan Gilbert tweeted that if the season were a game, nine minutes remained in the first frame. Now eleven games in, not much more time ticked off the clock. Unfortunately, six minutes and twenty-six seconds into this analogical game, the Cavs initially falter 18 to 11. A Kyrie turnover netted the opposition a transition bucket, as did a long rebound off a Dion brick. Largely invisible for the first half of the quarter, Earl Clark subbed out for CJ Miles, who mercifully drained a long three. Other than that, a Tristan put-back, and-one serve as the only highlights. In this hypothetical game, down ten midway through the first, Kyrie called timeout, where a small tussle appears to break out on the Cavalier bench; upon returning from the brief hiatus, Kyrie spell binds with a dizzying dribbling display into a deep trey.
And now this game reaches the present. Still battling from behind and definitely not looking sharp in the early going, Kyrie’s most recent highlight comes with mixed reactions. Yes, Kyrie from deep in the Q! But what the hell just happened in the huddle? And did Dion get sent to the locker room because of his recently tweaked ankle…or the bench shouting match?
Enough of that one game similitude to the current season; time to embark on a meandering, disjointed, rarely cohesive post…in honor of the early 2013 – 2014 Cavs campaign.
I have relatively little idea what to make of the players-only meeting. The most extreme innuendo is pointing to an altercation between Dion and Kyrie. Hopefully no one is buying that vague rumor. The best overview of recent events comes from Jason Lloyd, who indicates nothing of that sort. Some reports state that the meeting was contentious, and Dion was involved, but both of those things seem very reasonable; it was a meeting held after a 30-point asskicking…and Dion is a player, so why wouldn’t he be involved in a players only meeting? And why are some commenters / tweeters linking Kyrie’s “minimially displaced right nasal fracture” with this meeting, when Kyrie obviously headed to the pine that night due to a nasty elbow from Corey Brewer? The takeaways that are undoubtedly true from this mess: players are frustrated because the team stinks; there was a heated meeting last Wednesday, and Di0n Waiters missed the last two games. Anything beyond that appears to be baseless speculation. Unless Dion is traded by Wednesday. Moving on…
Other rumors focus on Waiters losing his starting job, and him being upset. Two thoughts on this – the first one isn’t specific to any individual. Hopefully the Wine & Gold settle into more lineup staggering and better floor spacing in general. Unless Earl Clark maintains his 47% three-point shooting (not going to happen), a starting unit with Waiters, Clark, Thompson, and Varejao undoubtedly didn’t have enough shooters and / or distributors to work. Second, Dion should not be upset about playing as the sixth man. It’s a role he played and thrived in at Syracuse, beginning the game on the bench, but closing on the floor. If there are thirty minutes per night available, it shouldn’t matter either way. Combining the two ideas above, I’d like to see a alot of different lineups, big and small, combinations of Kyrie and Dion in the backcourt*; Kyrie and Miles; Jack, Waiters and Miles; Varejao and Bynum frontcourts; Clark as a stretch-four; maybe some periodic small ball with Tristan at the five, and Bennett at the four. A few times this season, can the team roll out Kyrie, Dion, Karasev, Bennett and Thompson? Anyways, there shouldn’t be any shame in sixth-man status for Dion. If that’s the role he is assigned, relish it and prove who deserves to finish the games.
One thing for certain about the first eleven games is that it is way to early to give up on the season. I see people talking about tanking, and that drives me crazy. Early in 2012, I wrote a series titled Building a Winner, really my first substantive contribution to NBA blogging. The general thesis was that it rarely worked to embark on a period of prolonged tanking to acquire multiple stars. The Thunder are an aberration; construction of the vast majority of highly successful teams came in other ways. Sometime this year, I will update with a Part Six: the recent rise of the Pacers, Rockets, Warriors, etc continues the trend of not requiring a barrage of top-five choices in the lottery to field a contender. Drafting multiple superstars represents a path to a championship, but there are better means to success than multi-year sucking.
Can a superstar-less team win a championship again? The last occurrence of that feat came in 2004, via the Billups – Hamilton – Prince – Wallace Brothers starting five. Last season though, two of the NBA’s final four were superstar-less. The Pacers and Grizzlies greatly resembled those 2004 Pistons. Arguably, current day, 36-year old Tim Duncan isn’t a superstar on the level of in-their-prime Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, or Duncan; ESPN’s #NBARank considers him the league’s 16th best player. Three of last year’s final four teams put themselves in near position to win a championship without a current #NBARank top-ten player, and with a few lucky breaks (or maybe more appropriately, a sprain, perhaps to Lebron’s ankle) could win one this season. As a team in a market like Cleveland — similar to Indy or Memphis to some extent — isn’t that the target to build towards? Other than Kevin Durant, recent “superstars” in a non-marquee market have bailed on the franchise that drafted them.
So where is this barely cohesive article taking me? A vague thought-exercise on the value of Kyrie Irving. As a preface, I am not panicking. I do not think this eleven game stretch and one locker room incident is reason to tear everything apart. This is more of a philosophical discussion…something to consider over the next few months or even years. If this season continues to disappoint, should the Cavs ever consider asking, “is there a better way to build in Cleveland than around a megastar point guard?” The NBA has developed a strong track record of superstars demanding or deciding to leave their small market squads. And while “three quarters for a dollar” trades frequently get panned, for the teams that were able to trade their star (instead of losing the guy via free agency), it frequently hasn’t worked out poorly. Until their weird teardown, the Nuggets were an up-and-comer after trading Carmelo. The Grizzlies rebounded from trading Pau Gasol. The Thunder will continue to contend for another decade while staying below the luxury tax. Orlando is stocked with young talent (but no superstar), and is competitive early this season in the weak Eastern Conference. If the season continues to flounder, could or should Cleveland consider the ultimate shocking twist to the rebuild?
Perhaps building around a contingent of 21-year old, sometimes petulant, high lottery picks fronted by a supernova talent isn’t everything it’s cracked up to be for a franchise like Cleveland. Currently, the team’s shelves are stocked with “assets” but with the vast majority of those assets being more highly valued by Cleveland than any other team. One asset sought league wide…Mr Irving. Follow me on a brief hypothetical here. Cleveland has witnessed LeBron scurry away, and this past summer heard vague, non-substantiated rumors on Kyrie’s (non-Cleveland) plans for the future. What if the near term continues to resemble the past for the Cleveland Cavaliers? Mini-dramas of spats between players and coaches, internal battles among teammates, the occasional whisper that Kyrie seeks greener pastures? Perhaps consideration should be given to selling while the Wine & Gold still hold the leverage. What if Houston called, wanting to work on a trade involving some combination of Chandler Parsons, Omer Asik, Jeremy Lin, Terrence Jones, Patrick Beverley, and draft picks? Instead of an improbable quest to emulate the “Oklahoma City Model”, the Cavs rebuild could turn focus to stout defense, strong ball movement, and a 9 to 10 man deep crew of above average players. A grit & grind approach if you will, reminiscent of the Pacers and Grizzlies. It sounds non-traditional, but if this season turns towards 34 wins and dysfunction, the discussion is warranted.
This is probably all crazy talk though. I am certainly not advocating that the Cavs go out of their way to trade Kyrie. The start of the season has been frustrating, for management, players and fans alike. Hopefully any drama from last Wednesday is overblown and overcome, the wins start piling up, and it becomes easy again to envision the NBA contender being built on the shores of Lake Erie. If not, though, hard questions will need to be asked, one of which could be, “Do you sell high and buy low”?
*All lineup considerations involving Kyrie and Dion assume that they are not archenemies intent on hurting each other.
Oh, I know but that doesn’t change the fact that is him and him alone who will be responsible for it…
Even if it is on Kyrie . . . if it isn’t worked out by the end of the year . . . Dion will be the one to go.
Underdog, I was watching NBATV the other night and they had a feature on Dumars and Thomas and Zeke himself said what made them so effective was that each could do what the other could do and that ability to play off of each other and anticipate when one needed to be the point, etc was the key to their success. I had always envisioned this kind of thing with Kyrie and Dion. As I have said though, this is all on Kyrie. Until he learns to trust his teammates, most esp Dion, we will struggle. However, the ridiculous nature… Read more »
The Cavs are seriously disappointing but after listening to Windhorst’s interview with MB, I was reminded how young this team is. I think it was naive to assume that a new coach could show up, go all in on defense and and expect everything to fall into place. Kyrie and Dion may get there, but considering the lack of training they got under Scott, it won’t be easy or quick. MB knows what he’s doing, but we need to be patient. No need to panic!
Kj, do you not see then how the number of all-star appearance is a poor measure of stardom? And if there are only five superstars in the game, it really shouldn’t be much of a surprise to see teams without them in the conference finals.
There’s no question that if Kyrie and Dion don’t learn to play off each other then Dion will have to be traded. It’s obvious we’d have to move on, isn’t it? But you don’t develop that chemistry, or know that it can happen unless they are on the floor together . . . a lot. One can argue a benefit or two of having Dion come off the bench, and it might be fun to watch him burn a second unit from time to time, but it wouldn’t be in the long term interest of the team.
Again, I’m just looking to the day when Kyrie and Dion form a back court like Isaiah Thomas and Joe Dumars, or Billups and Hamilton. How is that going to happen if you split them up? Let them go through growing pains and get there as soon as they can.
It seems to me that just about all NBA teams have talent. The teams with experience and chemistry are the most impressive to me. It takes time.
I think we’re going to find that we’re better off with Dion starting (and alternating with Kyrie at the point) . . . and CJ as the second scoring option off the bench. Kyrie is going to be double teamed, trapped, smothered, and worn out if CJ is the second best ball handler on the floor. CJ doesn’t create anything. He catches a pass and shoots, or catches a pass and immediately takes it to the hole. How does that help the offense? Dion is not a true point guard, but he has improved with the pnr and working with… Read more »
I would have understood a trade of Kyrie for The #1 pick year ago to land Davis, but I don’t think there would be an acceptable trade out there right now. Perhaps a Kyrie for Drummond+ would be enough. To your points about Mem- that was luck. They got good but they only did so because Z-bo went from headcase on his fourth team in four years to clubhouse leader and a 2nd round pick that was basically a throw in turned into a DPOY candidate. They would still be a 7th or 8th seed at best if one of… Read more »
WOw Big News Today from Mike Brown………..drum roll please…. THEY HAD OFFENSIVE PRACTICE THIS WEEK!!! He said team was ahead of schedule on learning defense that he has decided to allow offensive practices this week!! He then chuckled that they really do need to know the plays followed by awkward laughter… CJ was THRILLED team was practicing offense and finally getting to know who will be on floor with him. Too any times they were just thrown in there to play with players that did not know the plays he said.
Why are we always talking about trades? It seems that very few actual trades are made. I guess it’s a fun intellectual exercise. But not much more than that.
One can make an argument that teams that stay together, establish a core, develop some chemistry, and add an important part at some point outperform teams that are Grand Central Stations – 100% of the time.
@ Kj and JHill EVERYONE is noticing Kyrie does not pass to Dion for whatever reason. True his FG% is 39% but his 3pts are 41% and he is averaging anywhere from 13-14 points a game. Strange he is struggling with his free throws this year compared to last year. Could it be we may have a little Westbrook going on with Kyrie not that I think Dion is even close to being Durant? bUt they are very very young and anything is possible to this mystery.
Really, Nate? So you use one website’s stats for one year to trump 8 all-star apperances by Bosh? Of course not every all-star nod is equal but Jesus, get real here. Bosh has had a far better career and by any definition was/is a star in the league. The point some of you seem to be missing is HOF-type player may not be playing at that level currently or in the last coupe years. Certainly true for some of the people Steve R mentioned in his response. As for your “circumstances” Steve, I could point to that sort of thing… Read more »
Maybe Kyrie doesn’t pass to Waiters as much because he shoots terrible shots, and is a black hole for ball movement, leading to 39% shooting and 2 assists a game? I think a big problem is Varajao’s complete regression from where he started last season, our #1 pick playing worse than most team’s 4th or 5th guy off the bench, and the fact that Irving feels the need to do everything to score (which he pretty much does). The glaring weakness of a good wing player has been evident in the start of the season. Picking Bennett number one was… Read more »
I’m with Steve – the argument ‘against’ superstars is … what exactly? The Spurs-Heat? We know that the Spurs had 3 eventual Hall-of-Fame caliber players on their squad and that Miami beat that by having Lebron + (at least) 2 more eventual Hall-of-Fame players (Ray Allen, Dwayne Wade). Or are we comping OKC-Heat in which there were ‘only’ 3 multiple All-Stars per team? Or are we talking Miami-Dallas? When there were a combined 4 Hall-of-Fame players on the court? (Kidd+Dirk, LBJ+ Wade)? Face it – to win a championship, you need superstars. You need guys’ whose talent level supersedes that… Read more »
Conley is about as underrated a player as there is in the league. APM ranks him as the 22nd best player in the league. Bosh, 154th. All star games do not neccessarily a great player make. Also, Splitter’s problem is that his productivity falls off a cliff in the playoffs. He’s a much better player in the regular season. But yes, the Grizzlies definitely have at least two stars, and probably three with Tony Allen, who’s simply been the best perimeter defender in the league over the last two years. The Spurs have at least two, and I imagine Leonard… Read more »
Steve, Conley has zero appearances in the All-Star game. Bosh has made 8. Come on. Notice also I used the term “stars” not “superstars.” There are about 5 superstars in the whole league. Maybe.
Stop it. We are not trading Kyrie Irving. Give the group time to gel a bit. nobody was serious about getting rid of our best player.
If we trade Kyrie, were would he fit and what would we get? I don’t really see anywhere where he fits with a preexisting culture that has a chance to win.
Ya know what? If the spurs had Dion, there’s no way they lose to Miami in the championship.
Yeah guys, let’s trade Kyrie and build around Dion.
So I’m not the only person who realized that Kyrie almost never passes to Dion? Maybe Dion kills him in practice and he doesn’t want to be shown up.
It seems crazy, but I’ve also been asking myself the “should we explore trading Kyrie” question.
Too bad we couldn’t have foreseen this in the summer of 2012, when Kyrie surely would have trumped Houstons package for James Harden.
Of course, NBARank is a pretty shitty measure of actual superstardom on the court, it only measures our perception, which overrates chuckers, and underrates guys who can D up (which still includes Duncan). Looking at WS/48, if Wade is still a “superstar” then the Spurs had three superstars (Parker, Duncan, Splitter) and the Grizzles had one with Gasol. If Bosh is a “superstar” then the Grizzles add a second with Conley, and the Pacers had two in West and Hill.
The “don’t need a superstar” argument is only a measure of just how poorly the common fan judges NBA talent.
I think people are missing that the reason that Brown is thinking having Dion come off of the bench is that Kyrue essentially froze him out after Dion’s relatively good start in the Minny game. I think that Brown is thinking that for whatever damn reason, Kyrie is more likely to pass to a spot-up Miles than Dion. Again, this is nearly all about Kyrie at this point. Really solid points about the myth of the superstars, Kevin. For all the love for Miami, the Spurs had them beaten until a confluence of unlikely events lead to a miraculous win… Read more »