Mega Links to the Present: Memorial Day Madness
2014-05-26
Welcome to a special Memorial Day links edition of CtB. We’ve a lot to get to. First off, let’s thank our service members whose sacrifices we are eternally grateful for. Second, we still have no idea who the Cavs are drafting. I’ve seen mock drafts with each of the three wunderkinds going first. This collection of mock drafts from Cavs.com has six sites picking Wiggins, three picking Embiid, and two picking Parker. And I’ve heard more than a little talk about the pick being moved. We may not know anything till June 26th.
Draft Madness
Joel Embiid:
First off, Trevor Magnotti from Right Down Euclid breaks down the medical details about Joel Embiid’s back injury. After a lot of fascinating technical details, he comes to an optimistic conclusion.
Based on prior examples and the method of treatment for Embiid’s injury, I don’t think there’s much of a precedent for concern surrounding Embiid’s injury. The possibility is there, of course, but everything Embiid has done has been done the right way for this injury to heal. A lot of the concern around this has clearly come from problems involving a limited understanding of back injury. This isn’t a disc problem, which can be a very debilitating and career-ending injury… the possibility of Embiid becoming a Greg Oden redux is very low.
Trevor’s piece was detailed and informative, but his conclusions are a little heavy on confirmation bias, and it was troubling that Magnotti did not even address the implications of Embiid’s high school back problems. For a more pessimistic piece, check out Matt McCarthy of Deadspin from March.
Like Olajuwon, he only began playing in high school and it’s now clear that his body hasn’t adjusted to rigors of dragging a 250-pound frame up and down the court night after night. If he’d been playing basketball his entire life, this might not have happened.
Equally concerning is that Embiid’s high school basketball injuries seem shrouded in a little more mystery, and may not have been handled as well as they were at Kansas. Gary Bedore of KUSports.com talked to Embiid’s high school coach about it.
“He had that a little bit last year. He tried to fight through it, mostly after the season,” Embiid’s high school coach, Justin Harden of The Rock School in Gainesville, Fla., said…
“It started hurting him about this time last year. He played through it.”
Fortunately, Embiid seems pretty well recovered in this eyepopping video from his workout in Los Angeles, last week. Embiid seems like he’s playing on a kiddie hoop. He might be the most effortless dunker I’ve seen since Shaq.
Last bit on Embiid…
Joel Embiid’s measurements at the workout on Fri: 7′ 1″ in shoes, 7′ 5.75″ wingspan, 9′ 5.5″ standing reach.
— Chad Ford (@chadfordinsider) May 25, 2014
Andrew Wiggins:
The PD’s Mary Schmidt Boyer had this piece on Wiggins, Saturday. Boyer notes Wiggins’ world class athletic lineage. He is the son of the fastest 200M and 400M sprinter in Canadian Women’s Track history: silver medalist, Marita Payne. And Andrew’s father, Mitchell, was a six year NBA pro.
Andrew Wiggins measurements from today. 6′ 8.75″ in shoes, 7′ 0″ wingspan, 8″ 11″ standing reach.— Chad Ford (@chadfordinsider) May 26, 2014
If Andrew Wiggins has 8’11” reach and a 44″ one-step vertical, his touch is 12’7”. Top of backboard is 13 ft.
— Michael Grange (@michaelgrange) May 26, 2014
Stay tuned, because Ford has the highlights of Wiggins’ workout coming on Tuesday. (The cover pick is Wiggins practicing a step-back). One thing I will say about Wiggins, his handle may have been an issue, especially early in the season but a lot of people are cherry picking bad games from early in the season, instead of some of his late season monster games. Check out the video below for Wiggins flashing crossovers, spin moves, and monster defense. One reason to cut him some slack? He’s still growing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXt5JtlWnps&feature=player_detailpage
Jabari Parker
Tyler Lashbrook of SBNation went in depth to break down Jabari Parker, on Friday.
In transition, Parker is a one-man wrecking ball. He can grab a defensive rebound and fly up the court by himself or finesse his way past a flurry of defenders. He doesn’t run as fast or jump as high as Wiggins, but he’s still a very good athlete.
Parker’s issues break down into two categories: Defense and shot selection. He struggles defending faster wing players out on the perimeter because he doesn’t sit down in a defensive stance. Instead, he stands hunched over, making it easy for opponents to drive past him.
Here’s Jabari’s L.A. Workout video. Whoa.
Coaching Madness
So, the Cavs coaching search continues. Color me underwhelmed. Lionel Hollins is once again a hot commodity, in the mix for the Cleveland and Lakers jobs, according to USA Today. Also on deck for interviews? Adrian Griffin of the Bulls, and Clippers assistants Tyron Lue and Alvin Gentry. Also seeing tweets that say Vinnie Del Negro is getting an interview. Is it me or are the Cavs going after a lot of guys without the gravitas to challenge David Griffin and Dan Gilbert’s meddling? Mitch Lawrence at The NY Daily News filed this crazy report.
New GM David Griffin is looking for a college or NBA coach who agrees to accept input and instructions from himself and the Cavs’ notorious hands-on owner, Dan Gilbert. That makes for a potential nightmare
Miami assistant, David Fizdale, has mostly avoided the coaching search spotlight to focus on the Heat’s playoff run, reports the Miami Sun Sentinal (paywall). Color me impressed.
And yet amid such speculation about outside interest, including the most recent whispers that have him linked to the Cleveland Cavaliers’ vacancy, David Fizdale has dug in and insists he isn’t looking to go anywhere. So once again amid a deep Miami Heat playoff run, Fizdale has found himself trying to quell an opponent and quiet rumors. “There have been no contact, no conversations, nothing like that,” Fizdale said of the coaching swirl that again has him in the vortex. “Quite honestly, Spo gets very annoyed with me, because he’s like, ‘Why don’t you care about being a head coach?’ And I’m like, ‘Cause we’re in the playoffs.’ “And I just don’t think about it. I don’t even know what jobs are open.”
Kyrie Madness
Kyrie Irving’s contract extension was in the news — again. A dubious story by Mitch Lawrence of the New York Daily News reports.
The Cavs are making noises that they aren’t going to offer Kyrie Irving “max money” this summer via a long-term extension. They don’t want to deal the 2014 All-Star Game MVP, but it could come to that, especially if the West Orange product and his family continue to tell people that he wants out. Irving hasn’t been a leader in his first three seasons and he’s also gained the unwelcomed reputation as a locker-room problem. Those are two reasons the Cavs don’t see him as a max player.
There was lots of hand wringing over this, but personally, I don’t buy it. The Cavs have too much to worry about to have even thought about this right now.
For a more nuanced discussion of whether the Cavs should offer Kyrie the Max, check out Nate Silver’s (yes, that Nate Silver) piece on FiveThirtyEight.com, entitled, “When to sign an NBA Player to a max Contract.”
Kyrie Irving hasn’t made an All-NBA team and he isn’t going to this season. But is he a close call or a flat ‘no’? He’s squarely on the left-hand side of our chartbased on win shares — and that metric likes Irving a lot better than some other systems. ESPN’s NBA real plus-minus rated Irving as just the 37th (!) best point guard in the league, by contrast, in large part because it rates his defense as awful.
If Irving has a 50 percent chance of turning into Westbrook and a 50 percent chance of following the Francis course, the Cavs probably shouldn’t sign him. (The team also has other options to explore: trading him, locking up his fifth season by making him a qualifying offer, and so forth.)
Ouch.
Miscellaneous Madness
Sam Vecenie of FTS goes in depth to analyze all thirty picks of his Big Board 1.0. He chooses Wiggins No. 1 for the Cavs, and not without hesitation, citing Wiggins potential as the reason to pick him over Jabari Parker’s readiness and Embiid’s questionable health. But the real beauty is the next 29 picks. It’s a great read.
And finally, get your tickets for this. I will cry if Dion is not a Cav next year.
Joeyjoe isn’t arguing that big men aren’t needed or that they don’t contribute anything…he’s arguing that the role of the biggest men is less prominent or crucial (when compared to the athletic wing)…and I’d agree. Defenders are allowed to cheat against big men like they couldn’t in years past (legalizing zones) and defenders can’t cheat against quick wings like they used to (disallowing hand checks). 15 years ago, I could see a pair of skilled bigs like Zack Randolph and Marc Gasol (with solid supporting cast like Mike Conley and Tony Allen) leading Memphis to one of the top-2 seeds… Read more »
@Joeyjoe you do realize that the Mavericks wouldn’t have been close to winning the finals without Chandler right? Basically the same team the following year barely made the playoffs… You need at least a borderline big guy who can protect the rim or I suppose great perimeter defense (Miami). We have neither…
He averaged 11 and 8 in college because he started playing basketball in 2011 and only played 20 or so minutes a game . . . and was a freshman on a team with of other scoring talent.
Kansas had another player that has played basketball all his life, was said to have been the first pick in the NBA draft coming out of high school, and scored 17 points a game. That’s 3 baskets more a game than the guy who started playing 3 years ago. And the guy who started three years ago has a better left hand.
Well the comment monster got my last post so here’s the bullet points: Perimeter players (Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Rose, Parker, Pierce, Wade) have won 16 of the last 20 NBA MVP and Finals MVP awards. I don’t think its a “derth” of quality bigs because skilled players like the Gasols, Noah, Ibaka, Howard, and Yao haven’t been able to impact the league the way Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, and Robinson did in the 90’s and early 2000’s. Its correct to say that Gasol, Bynum, Ibaka, Bosh, Hibbert, and other bigs are part of making their teams great, but each of those… Read more »
@KJ. Let’s look at it like this. Since 2004-05 the MVPs have been Durant, Lebron (x4), Rose, Dirk, and Nash (x2) In the same span Lebron (x2), Kobe (x2), Pierce, Parker, Wade and Billups have won the finals MVP. So perimeter players have won 17 of 20 of the awards for the most important player in the league and on the championship team. So its pretty clear that all things being equal that the past decade has favored perimeter players. Look at Wade shooting 96 free throws over 6 games and tell me it was Shaq leading them. Ibaka is… Read more »
San Antonio seemed to have OKC throttled until Ibaka came back.
Howard is the only good center prospect to come out and he lead a team to the finals. The fact that there is a dearth of big men does not mean big men don’t matter. Your logic is specious. Kobe needed Gasol, btw. The Celts needed Garnett. The Heat needed Bosh and the Pacers need Hibbert. The Thunder need Ibaka. Again, you are looking at the evidence and drawing the wrong conclusion. Kobe missed the playoffs until they got Gasol. LBJ could not carry the Cavs and he was arguably the best player by then. Wade didn’t win til Shaq… Read more »
Nate: I like Young too but I worry that he hasn’t been in a winning culture either, at least this year.
Josh VS: Earlier in the season when the Pacers were actually playing well many people considered George a top 3-5 player, granted he couldn’t sustain that level but he very well may.
Fair enough. I would say he’s “in the discussion” now. Just not someone you’d point to and say without question that he’s a superstar. But there’s a solid chance he’ll get there.
I think you forget that George is still just 24. Give him another couple of seasons and he’ll be in the “superstar” discussion.
Also, the interesting thing with the Pacers “model” is that there really isn’t one guy you look at and say “superstar”. Paul George is the closest they have and he’s borderline at best, right? Like, he’s probably top 10 in the NBA but definitely not top 3 and probably not top 5-7.
That said, they’re without a doubt the worst team in the conference finals, so maybe their model isn’t the best.
I could see dealing TT, the Memphis pick, and the Heat pick for Thaddeus. Especially if the Heat win again, meaning they’re all going to stick around to try again next year so that pick will suck.
Random aside, have we thought about what would happen to the Heat pick if they lose this year and Lebron bolts? Regardless of where he goes, the pick looks a LOT more attractive if he leaves. That top 10 protection becomes relevant suddenly.
Love the comment, David. My David West guy? Thaddeus Young. Go get him for TT/future picks/etc. Extend him/re-sign him. Start him at PF for the next 7 years.
@raoul – I agree that the veteran leadership is critical. And it has to be a veteran who actually plays real minutes and can influence the team on the court. It can’t just be a bench guy. Which is why I think we need to trade either the #1 or some combination of our young assets. If we don’t, then we will have to find minutes for KI, DW, TT, AB, Karasev, the #1 AND still try to be competitive (another losing season will be catstrophic for the culture and for player development). That is a tall order. If, on… Read more »
I think Embiid will be better than Shaq, mosdef better than Howard. He has 3pt range. The CAVS should trade Kyrie Irving for a king’s ransom. PGs do not win titles and are easily replaced. Can we get Lakers pick for Kyrie?
@raoul: I see the shift from big men as coming down to three things: 1. Fewer young players developing a back to the basket game (Embiid seems to have this and be working to further his game). On the flip side it seems like every young player is learning trying to develop a face up game. I’ve heard people attribute these factors to the style of play and coaching in AAU which is so prominent now. 2. Rule changes: You mentioned the zone defense, but I think officials allowing offensive players to use their off arm to create space and… Read more »
David N. Good post! Overpaying for veteran leadership might have to be done. If so, I would start with LD. Supposedly, but Bulls sluffed him off on the Cavs because he turned his nose up at $30M/3years, which is way more than he is worth at this point. So, it looks like signing him will be a problem. But he is not likely to get too many offers. Maybe $30M/4years would fly. Maybe another quality veteran too. The key point is getting top leadership and coaching. If KI goes for a top draft pick, so be it. But this time… Read more »
Sorry for such a long post but I’d really like to hear what everyone thinks about this analysis. Go Cavs!
Just typed out a long analysis that is gone somewhere, sigh. Anyway I’ll try to piece it back together. If you look at the final four they all have a competitive guard who attacks the basket, a very good 3, and an all star caliber big. The Pacers who have Stevenson, George, and West/Hibbert as their three components. None of them were drafted high, and all were developed by great coaching and patience… The construction of this team doesn’t resemble our rebuild much at all but the one thing I really like they did, which we need to do is… Read more »
Joeyjoe, you mention SG is more valuable than C… I think the 2 isn’t the emphasis its a scoring guard. That is what these teams have with Parker, Westbrook, Wade, and Stevenson. I feel a scoring guard (check), a very good wing (need), and a big who can be an all star (probably don’t have). Is needed to be an elite team. If you take Wiggins you better hope to sign someone like the Heat (Bosh) or draft one late like the Pacers (Hibbert) or Thunder (Ibaka). If you take Embiid you need to sign a 3 like the Heat… Read more »
JoeyJoe, How has the NBA changed? Have the rules been changed to lessen the impact of a top big man? Maybe the coaching strategy? Now that zones are “more legal” than they used to be, you would think the impact of big men was going up. Or, for some reason, have there not been any good big men lately? I would think a young Bill Russell would still be dominating today. I truly have no clue on this, so if anyone has some insight, please share. I will keep in mind that a lot of things go in cycles. My… Read more »
I grant you that Robinson, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, and Howard were all the best player on Finals teams as big men, but with the exception of Howard, all of them were playing in the NBA in the 90’s. In the present, Howard can’t get his team out of the first round. Meanwhile guys like Lebron, Paul George, Kevin Durant, Paul Pierce, D Wade, and Kobe have all lead their teams to the Finals. You’re saying that there hasn’t been any good centers in almost twenty years, but I’d contest that guys like the Gasols, and Howard, and Howard would have… Read more »
We seem to be talking past each other here. It doesn’t matter if Duncan or Hakeem were “number 1.” What matters is that they were/are superstars who lead their teams to titles. So did Shaq. Only Howard has come into the league since then as a high-ceiling big man and he too lead a team to the Finals! In other words, you are looking at the same evidence I am but drawing the wrong conclusion. The conclusion you should reach is that when a big man prospect comes around like a Duncan, Robinson, Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing and Howard THEY LEAD… Read more »
*I meant to say Hakeem was the #1 after MJs first title run
@Kj. I’m not trying to rag on Duncan. My second response was at Nate taking the my statement that Duncan was never the clear cut best player in the league. My point is with all the advantages, skills, and pieces around him Duncan was never a clear #1. So its amazingly hard for a big man to hold that place in the league. I feel like Hakeem held that title during M’s first title, and Shaq held it for a stint as well. HOWEVER I can’t think of a big man that was more pivotal than Tyson Chandler and Bosh… Read more »
@Joeyjoe, I don’t get your argument. Duncan is in the Pantheon (esp if they win another this year) of big men currently. Who cares if he was number 1 or 1a. He is a dominant SUPERSTAR who has won MULTIPLE TITLES. What more could be possibly want out of a number pick. If Embiid has HALF the career Duncan has had, then his worth to the Cavs is immeasurable! Duncan is still super-valuable. His mere presence on the court makes teams game plan for him. That is the value of a Superstar big. Even at the end of his career.… Read more »
Nate’s right. We’ve compared this rebuild to OKC so much that’s it’s clouded our realistic expectations. They rebuilt during GREAT drafts. We haven’t to this point. It’s possible that we and the organization expected to much too fast from a young core. The Cavs are in a similar situation as the Blazers and Wizards were last season, with more flexibility and assets to improve. Blazers won 33 games last year, then took a step forward through natural maturation of the core. The Wizards won 29 games last season. My favorite thing about Griffin’s mantra is fit. While we may overvalue… Read more »
@Nate been watching basketball since the Lenny Wilkens was coaching the Cavs and I watch plenty of games. My point was as good as Duncan was in 02-03 there was a guy named Shaq who was throwing up 27.5pts 11 rebs 3 assts and 2 blks, and was a force of nature to to deal with on both ends, not to mention he was shooting 58% vs Duncan’s 51% and posting a higher win share per/48 minutes. The next year was when T Mac and Kobe went nuts with their scoring and both McGrady and Dirk had very similar win… Read more »
(continued) Actually, I might be mixing up SVP&R with WhatsHisName and Stugotz.
Ross, great pointer.
Really good. Hard to believe it is the same guy as on “SVP & Russillo”. SVP&R usually come off like a couple of high school stoners doing a sports version of Wayne’s World. ESPN radio must have a rule with a minimum amount of time required for dumb stuff, fake arguments, etc., so as to keep the moron demographic tuned in.
Nate: Who has been successful at tanking? How about San Antonio? As I recall, the lottery was put in after SA totally tanked to get David Robinson.
Doing more research on Embiid. Here’s some more stuff: shoot 64% on 2-point attempts, 2nd in Big 12. Defensive POY in Big 12. 4.5 blks per 40. Lead Big 12 in defensive rtg. Rebound pct lead Big 12 and was 10th in the nation!
This guy is the number one pick. Unquestionably.
Great article. I concur.
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/ryen-russillos-nba-draft-confidential-real-scouts-on-wiggins-randle-embiid-and-parker/
Very interesting read. Wanted to share it since it doesn’t follow the typical narrative (or wishlist) that I’m seeing on most Cavs blogs.
Kojo,
Look what happend to them without Ibaka, I don’t have nothing against getting Wiggins , he is a joy to watch but, his points always came at the expense of bad match ups and didn’t Cary the loads of being the man like other elite players. I just think it would be a safer bet to go with defense than offense at this time, we still can get Deng or another good small forward of the market. Dion and Kyrie and Embiid can be a very good combo for years to come. Go Cavs
I’d include Shaq, Gasol, KG, Dirk, and Duncan as bigs. Dallas won with it’s front-court, not its back-court (though Dallas’ back-court played very well). KG as the back line of a defensive lineup, and an automatic elbow jumper, along with Pierce and Allen was enough to get Boston a championship. Ibaka’s a bad comparison, but you do need at least one all-star caliber big to win it all. Michael’s Bulls might be the lone exception to that, but they had Grant or Rodman, so no. That doesn’t fly either.
Tony O, “Ibaka proved it that you need a big man to win.” What? Oklahoma City hsa won one game. Miami wins without a big man. Indiana is struggling becaues of their big man. When was the last time a championship was won because of a true big man. Shaq and LAL? Clippers have big dudes, don’t win anything. GS has Bogut, Portland has LaMarcus, Washington has Gortat and NeNe, a lot of teams have big dudes and don’t win anything. The best teams win becuase of SF’s that can do it all and dominate on the permieter or driving… Read more »
Gordon,
this … “Any way the Cavs trade Kyrie for a top 3 pick in this draft? Unlikely. But Kyrie + TT + future first to pick up the #2 or #3? Take two of Wiggins/Embiid/Parker?
Pipe dream, but I’d do it.” … is retarded.
Cavs made a mess of Kyrie’s rookie year, putting him with a lot of really crappy players instead of surrounding him with solid veterans. Then they compounded the mess by tanking for two more years, and just thinking they could, “turn it on.” Sixers are doing it with MCW. Tanking is a strategy for getting really highly rated players in the draft and then turning them into selfish players who don’t know how to win. Teams who have tanked and been successful at it? OKC. And it only worked because Durant is once in a generation, and Westbrook is insanely… Read more »
Taking a break of Cavs analysis to pile on the Simmons hypocrisy bandwagon. I’ve always liked Simmons, and think he has some good insights, but his emotions sometimes get the best of him….anyone read his recent mock NBA mailbag this weekend? Simmons has been one of the most vocal “Cavs blew the #1 pick last year” critics with the Bennett choice, and has gleefully trotted out statistics over the course of the year in support. His most recent article simultaneously again mocked th Cavs for poor drafting….then claims the Cavs have the best odds of trading for KLove, with an… Read more »
Cory,
Good points. I was overstating the situation.
“I respect the hell out of Duncan but I can’t think of a time in his career where he was without a doubt the best player in the NBA.” I will hope that Joeyjoe is just very young, because Duncan was a two time MVP (2002-2003), three time Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005), 10x All NBA First team (as recently as last year), and 3x All NBA Second team. So for three seasons he’s been arguably the best player in the league. 10 times he’s been the best player at his position, and three times he’s been the second best… Read more »
@Pedro – Good stuff. Its a tough call, and I can see where you are coming from with the Wiggins love. I certainly would be excited to have him, I just worry about the fit on this current roster. We have so many “potential guys
@RickOH – That made me laugh out loud.
@Scott: Agreed on the extension for Kyrie. I personally think that the floor spacing Hawes provided allowed him to be the special max worthy player we hoped him to be all season. I’m a little blown away to see people making a big deal about this, I really thought other fans embraced Kyrie at a higher level, in my eyes hes a cornerstone of the offense and a big part of our future success. @Pedro/Hot Sauce: I couldn’t agree more with Pedro’s thoughts about defense. Effort is key but you need certain tools. Parker is going to be caught between… Read more »
Even if you argue that Kyrie isn’t worth a max extension, it’s close enough that the Cavs should offer it. If he refuses it, then we’ll have to trade him. Right now he’s just an elite scorer. Even though his shooting percentages dropped he is probably one of 10-12 guys in the league that can create his own shot whenever he wants to. He has the talent to be the league’s best PG, but he has to stay healthy, learn to defend, and figure out how to make his teammates better. Unless Embiid fails his medical tests, the Cavs should… Read more »
Embiid should be the choice, Ibaka proved it that you need a big man to win. Cheat has the Bosh or Bash or Boosh. Price has to get a shot at the coaching, last time the management went with people’s choice, we end up with Bernie and that turned out to be a wise pick, what you all say ? That is just my opinion. Go Cavs.
Where would the Wizards have been this season if they didn’t offer John Wall the max? Cities like Cleveland don’t have the opportunity to bring in mid-level free agents of choice let alone max debatable players. We can’ be as choosy as the premium markets. If Kyrie was drafted by the Twolves and was a free agent, do you think the Cavs would have a shot in hell of signing him?
@Raoul I watched every game last year. Kyrie has numerous faults as a player, but some are blown out of proportion by the media and us. We’re not a normal fan base. We’ve been traumatized too many times. We’re mind f^cked. We are irrational sometimes. Kyrie was in a unique and shitty situation being drafted by the Cavs. He had to replace Lebron. He had to replace the greatest player of his generation and home grown one at that. That was forced on him. Was John Wall asked constantly about replace Arenas? Was Blake Griffin asked constantly if he’d walk… Read more »
Cory Hughey – it doesn’t matter how you or any other normal 22 year old has acted. No one was lining up to give up a tenth of a billion dollars.
Paid like a king, at least act like a man.
@Hot sauce – “Almost every great player enters the NBA as a weak defender. Most great players who truly want to improve on D can get to a solid level of performance with hard work and good coaching. I think Parker will become solid on D over time if he wants its.” Most rooks are bad on defense because they’ve never defended on the NBA level before, some have better tools than others, and my understanding was that Parker was a bad defender on the college level. He could become solid- or at least passable- with work, but the material… Read more »
Yes, it was Kevin Hetrick
Anyone remember the title of that big piece one of the guys on here that analyzed draft prospects based on measurements and stuff and how it translated?
Any way the Cavs trade Kyrie for a top 3 pick in this draft? Unlikely. But Kyrie + TT + future first to pick up the #2 or #3? Take two of Wiggins/Embiid/Parker?
Pipe dream, but I’d do it.
Yeah I’m with RickOH but even if they thought the second pick and Kyrie are equal value, they have Brandon Knight already and if they slide Knight over to the 2 which they want to do, they need a big PG who can defend. Knight and Irving would be one of the worst defensive back courts I’ve seen.
“If Kyrie does want out, I’d gladly deal him to Milwaukee for the second pick. PG is the easiest position to replace by a mile.” Good thing Milwaukee doesn’t know that! Maybe we can get two first rounders out of them? And then maybe take a suggestion from another one of our posters (all of us should really be gm’s on professional teams) and trade TT and Sacramento first rounder for Kevin Love. Then get LeBron here pronto. Oh, then there was also that suggestion to scam Philly out of the 3 and 10 picks cuz god knows they have… Read more »
Cory,
Why would you offer KI a max? Did you sleep through the last year?
JHill, I hope there is another team that wants to offer him a max, and has some good draft picks to trade.
If you watch the NBA for a few decades, you see over and over how teams screw up long term: (1) go into “win now” mode, and (2) give “pretty good” players max contracts.
Does anyone even think another team would offer Kyrie Irving the max? Because Denver played hardball with Ty Lawson and it worked out pretty well.
Not trying to put too much stock into the Kyrie rumors. I can’t imagine that they won’t offer him a max deal or that he won’t take it.
I’ve flipped back and forth between Wiggins and Embiid. If both are healthy I’d be happy with either. If Kyrie does want out, I’d gladly deal him to Milwaukee for the second pick. PG is the easiest position to replace by a mile.
I’d honestly be ok with any of the top 3 prospects as a Cav (God help us all if they choose someone else outside the group) but I think my preference is (which has changed already since the lottery day) is Embiid, Wiggins, and Parker 3rd. If Embiid’s back is a non-issue which from the early reports, seems like it will be fine, you can’t pass on a 7 footer with those basketball skills. If the Cavs medical doctors nix Embiid because of the back, then I would place Wiggins slightly above Parker due to the fact that Wiggins as… Read more »
Also Nate, I think Embiid dunks even MORE effortlessly than Shaq did. I think he compares to David Robinson in his young years when he dunked with seemingly little effort…
Btw, no advanced stats that I’ve seen favor Wiggins. That is not the case for Embiid. I love people accusing others of confirmation bias. People, get real. We all do that when analyzing anything sports-related…
@Pedro – Almost every great player enters the NBA as a weak defender. Most great players who truly want to improve on D can get to a solid level of performance with hard work and good coaching. I think Parker will become solid on D over time if he wants its. Re Wiggins v. Williams, you are showing per game stats, but Williams played 22 mpg and Wiggins 33. Their stats per minute aren’t that different, and Williams shooting percentages were much better. Personally, I agree Wiggins is much better than Williams, and, overall, I think Wiggins is a great… Read more »
I would give KI to BOS or LAL for their 1st rounder this year, another future first rounder, and rights to swap in between. He needs to go if we are establishing a new culture. No extension, No QA.
Returning to the topic of how few players are worth a max contract: Few teams have a super star they can put on a max contract. I would sure like the Cavs to get one. Who in the draft is likely to become one? If Embiid does not have long term back trouble, he is by far the best bet. I am not buying the theory that big men do not dominate the NBA anymore. What is Tim Duncan’s playoff record compared to ANY other player in the game now? Can anyone provide that data?
The more I read….is Adrien Payne the player that we all wanted Tristan Thompson to eventually be? Payne isn’t as athletic as Thompson, and may not have the same motor, but he’s bigger, has 3-pt range, and can defend the paint as a center.
Is it reasonable to flip one into the other this year?
@hot sauce What makes you think the D will come for Parker? I look at Parker and think, we don’t need another mildly athletic, no defense, ball stopper- unless we’re moving Kyrie or Dion (which would be foolish). I’m still sold on Embiid or Wiggins- with a Wiggins lean due to Embiid’s back. What in your mind is the “lots of downside risk” for Wiggins? He’d be an immediate improvement on our defensive side of the ball, makes us immediately more athletic, more dangerous on the break. With Kyrie and Dion, he isn’t bearing the responsibility of the offense- we… Read more »
Nate- agree with your take on some of the Andrew Wiggins criticism. Here’s an example: http://deanondraft.com/2014/02/14/andrew-wiggins-an-ordinary-player-in-an-extraordinary-body/ and my response from another thread: I read the deanondraft piece and was not impressed. It seemed full of confirmation bias and selective sampling. The author takes an already small sample size (one college season) and then makes it even smaller (6 conference games from that season while at the same time ignoring games against other quality competition) and then tries to draw absolute conclusions from the negative information. He sees what he wants to see. Despite Wiggins having better numbers than Paul George,… Read more »
good piece. i am becoming more intrigued jabari. he has past wiggins on my board. lots of offensive skill, and the D will come. the wiggins WV game didn’t do much for me. his team was getting blown out and he basically just got a ton of points by being aggressive against a team playing soft D. when i watch his scoring outbursts in college, i see a supreme athlete taking advantage of weaker players. i don’t see very many offensive skills that translate to the NBA. his jumper has some upside, but he is not a pure shooter. he… Read more »
Raoul—I am in total agreement with you– DO NOT GIVE UP THE FUTURE FOR ” 1 YR RENTAL—KL “—–build a team that he would consider coming to along with a ” certain HEAT ” player
I sure hope Griffin and Gilbert do not get into meddling!
I think things look really promising unless they do some stupid “Win Now” stuff. Trading the farm for one year of KL would be perhaps the dumbest trade in the history of the NBA. Clevelanders would finally stop talking about the “Curse of Rocky Colaveto”.
I read the Nate Silver piece, and it pretty much agreed with my gut feeling. A lot of teams lock up a “not very super” star, and go nowhere and stay there.
o.k I have officially changed the 1st pick at least 4 times now ( between wiigins and embiid )—-wiggins overall potential / basketball skills are EXCITING ( and according to reports is still growing –his potential could be off the charts —the genetics from his parents don’t hurt ) —- embiid health issues WORRY me—-if rumors about kyrie are true ( that he wants out ) make an offer to the bucks even up kyrie for your 2nd pick—-does Austin from Baylor look good as our 2nd round pick ( athletic 7′ ) did well against embiid ?—–still prefer a… Read more »