Podcast 276: Spidaman Takes Over Tower City
2022-09-02Nate Smith, Eli Kim, and Chris Francis take an early Labor Day vacation to the Cavs: the Podcast resort studios to hash out the big news of the week, Donovan Mitchell is a Cavalier. CtB has you covered with every angle of the trade. Chris pushes his Donovan pills on Nate and Eli. Eli walks his dog mid-podcast. Nate regales the listeners with stories from Trivia Night. This one is a must-listen…
Also, this is our first podcast on RedCircle! The setup should be the same. Listen below, download the full audio file, or listen on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, TuneIn, Spotify.
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IF MY “MATH // MEMORY ” IS CORRECT—OUR CTB BROTHER RAOUL WILL BE CELEBRATING A BIRTHDAY TOMORROW—-AN EARLY HAPPY BIRTHDAY RAOUL—-I WILL CELEBRATE IT BY ————HAVING ” MORE BEER PLEASE ” !!
righto! I am transitioning from “old as dirt” to “older than dirt”.
Happy Birthday Raoul!
‘We wanted the deal, obviously,’ but he said, ‘They wanted my wife, they wanted my kids, they wanted my grandkids. They were just trying to rip somebody off.’ So he says, ‘Dude, we’re gonna have to pass on it.’ And I give those guys credit, because you can’t give away everything.” I get that Mitchell is too good to pass up but come on, they did give quite a bit away.
Let me hijack the conversation to the three new baseball rules. Here is my take:
Slightly larger bases? No brainer.
Pitch clock? I can see both sides, but basically a good thing.
Forcing fielders to be in “traditional” locations? Dumb AF! Insane micromanaging for no reason.
The usual position are only traditional because that is usually the best option. They have been doing shifts for over 100 years. If someone can’t hit to all fields, that is their own fault.
Yes it’s supposed to be hard to get a hit so I agree on the BS shift rules.
BTW most of these rules are put in place to speed the game up but if everyone can get hits won’t it slow it down?
Agree 100% on all of that.
NBA says cap is now projected at north of $134 mil for ’23-’24 season.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/34557589/nba-tells-teams-salary-cap-jump-134-million-2023-24-season
Cavs on the books:
1) Garland + Mitchell + Allen = $86 mil.
2) Mobley TO + Rubio = $15 mil
—————
3) Okoro Team option = $9 mil
4) Cedi non-guaranteed = $7 mil
5) Stevens Team option = $1.7 mil
6) Cap holds: Love, LeVert, Lopez, Wade, Neto, Windler.
I
Was listening to Tony Jones (a reporter who covers the Jazz) talk about the trade. Loved a point he made about how the Cavs can keep a combination of DG or Mitchell out on the court along with either Mobley or Allen basically at all times. Should be able to clean up against second units, at least in the regular season.
How do you guys think it works out? Sit the “old guys” Mitchell and Allen first? Which potential pairings do you think does more damage? Going to be a lot of fun watching this year.
I definitely think that is the correct template:
1) 1+ of Garland/Mitchell on the floor at all times.
2) 1+ of Allen/Mobley on the floor at all times.
I think matchups may dictate the Allen/Mobley timing. You don’t want Mobley banging with behemoths. That is what Lopez is for.
Other than that, I think how guys play with each other will be determinative. What combo’s work & which do not (or work less well)? Who claims the SF role? And when Rubio gets healthy, the rotations will change again.
Imagine you’re going to have to give more Rubio minutes to Mitchell. And LeVert with DG. Can’t see LeVert and Mitchell pairing very well.
Another interesting point Jones made was that Mitchell is pretty bad at throwing lobs. Makes me think he’ll be better with Mobley, who is more likely to provide some pick and pop action than Allen.
Also, at this point I’m betting on Okoro claiming the starting SF spot, and pencilling in Cedi as backup.
Something I found interesting during the Chasedown pod with Jones that just came out was when Justin (I think) asked him about Mitchell’s lack of lobs to Gobert…Jones said that Mitchell is terrible at lob passes, and it’s actually kind of a team joke about Mitchell. He apparently practices them a lot, but is just not good at it.
Quite a contrast to DG, who in my book is the best at it in the league. Maybe DG can school him a bit, who knows. There will be a fair few opportunities for Mitchell to toss them with the Cavs.
Allen and Mobley should definitely help make it easier on him. At least I hope so.
Remember who he was throwing those lobs to… Rudy is a stiff.
Agree, but it can also be true that Mitchell is just not good at those passes.
Put in a pair of donations in honor of Ryan Yankee and Cory Hughey. Support Evan if you’re looking for a good cause.
https://twitter.com/AmNotEvan/status/1568241456892067843
https://twitter.com/oldseaminer/status/1568267600999890944?s=20&t=FoDGf-BjfUMk_SiOFY00-Q
what happened last year?
Tore his ACL in a summer league game.
Vaudrin is a PG whi had a good summer league before getting hurt last year.
Pickett is a 6’9″ forward who will turn 25 shortly. He got 13 games with Detroit on a 2-way last year.
We do have an open roster spot.
Coaching update:
https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2022/09/cleveland-cavaliers-shuffle-coaching-staff-name-mike-gerrity-charge-head-coach.html
Turkey loses to group winners Spain, 72-69, but advance anyway. Osman leads team with 20. Cedi is having a pretty strong tournament.
https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/34535616/eurobasket-2022-giannis-antetokounmpo-ready-lead-greece-gold
Why the Cavs Will Have a Great Season With Donovan Mitchell | The Mismatch | The Ringer.. on the ytube..
thnx. that is great! “seventh all time NBA playoff scoring average” — what’s not to like?
My question is: How likely do you think it is that Mobley emerges as a substantial offensive force this year? If the answer is not likely, then I think the best bet would probably be to have all times at least two of Garland, Mitchell, and LeVert on the floor. By itself, the upgrade from straight-up replacing LeVert with Mitchell doesn’t seem enough improvement to the league’s 20th-best offense last year. Looking back at their first few years in the league makes me think Mitchell’s defense could return to okay levels, and LeVert could once again be fine at the… Read more »
If replacing Levert minutes with Mitchell minutes doesn’t raise the roof on the offense, this trade is a disaster. Mitchell is vastly better. I don’t really have any faith in Levert as a winning player. Sub in Rubio for Levert and I’m guessing that’s the plan as far as guard rotation. I doubt the FO sees Levert as a long term piece with Mitchell in tow.
Good post TTM
LeVert is probably not central to the plan. If he can make a positive impact with the “second unit”, that will be a bonus.
There is an excellent chance that Mobley will be an all star this year or next. You want him with the ball so that he gets better every day.
Replacing LeVert with Mitchell is HUGE. LeVert was pretty mediocre last year. His ceiling maxes out at good sixth man. Mitchell’s ceiling maxes out at top few scorers in the NBA
In today’s three point happy NBA, Mitchell minutes are much better than LeVert minutes. Large upgrade.
Who knows with Mobley, but his shot is supposedly looking a lot better this offseason, and I am pretty confident he will be noticeably more of a factor scoring and on the boards this season. Of course, down the line, the sky is the limit.
Great question Treize, if Kevin Garnett’s numbers are any indication, he’s another year or two away from being a “substantial offensive force.”
Agree that it’d be nice to have 2 of DG, Caris, and Mitchell on the court at all times, should definitely be that way in the playoffs.
Age 22 season was a massive jump in usage for KG… but I’d still make a concerted effort to make Mobley a focal point. He’s going to raise the ceiling the most on the team.
I think it is 2 of DG, Mitchell, & Rubio (once he is healthy). I’d wager the FO wants to see if Okoro blossoms this year. I am pretty down on LeVert after last year. But it was a small sample size. $20 mil is an awful lot for your backup (at best) SG. We’ll see how it goes. He’ll also be in the mix at SF with Okoro, Wade, & Cedi. Rubio & Mitchell are better with the ball. Mitchell & Wade are better shooters (maybe Cedi too). Okoro & Stevens are better defenders. But he comes in 3rd… Read more »
Another thing to consider is, will LeVert want out if he is not the starter? We need shooting and/or defense in that spot more than a ball dominant scorer.
I think the guy has value. But worry he is a taller version of Sexton. If he is not willing to re-sign for backup wages, it might make more sense to move him & see if we can recoup a late 1st. Especially if things do not go swimmingly early on.
I think he’s pretty clearly a worse offensive player than Sexton. Can’t shoot 3s and has terrible efficient stats.
agree.
KG came straight from HS, though. Remember to count college years on Mobley’s developmental curve.
FWIW, in terms of 5 man units, Markkanen was a part of many of our top performing units and most used units last year. Losing him stinks.
In 221 minutes, the DG/Okoro/Lauri/Mibes/JA unit was both our most often used and had the highest +/- at +58.
However, subbing in Wade for Lauri netted a +42 in 105 minutes, with superior offensive & defensive ratings.
http://www.82games.com/2122/2122CLE2.HTM
Of the top 20 most used lineups, the only other 9ne that had the other 4 constant with Lauri/Wade as the 5th DG/Sexton/Mobley/Allen.
Less minutes in the sample, but the Wade version was again slighly superior. Much better on O, worse on D, better +/- in fewer minutes.
Another comment on the trade creating “a hole” by losing YB + LM + the rook:
Last year Okoro/Lavert was the fifth best starter. This year Okoro/Lavert/Wade will be the fifth best starter — at least as good as last year.
As for the other four starters, three are the same, but the former fourth best player has been replaced by a regular all-star who would be the best player on many teams, maybe including the Cavs.
While a stronger bench would be nice, you can’t have everything.
This is a much better team than last year.
Much better.
First off, Sexton only played 11 games. Yes, we were 7-4 in those games. But he was also a RFA and not guaranteed to be on the team, much less start. Mitchell is a large uograde over Sexton, Okoro, or LeVert starting.
I liked Lauri, but he was not a world beater defensively or on the glass. Though the D was much better than I thought it would be. Some combo of Wade, Okoro, LeVert, Cedi, Stevens, and maybe even Windler eating those minutes won’t hurt us much, if at all.
Plus, getting Rubio back and adding Lopez makes the bench better. As does Neto at #3 PG. Plus we have an open spot. Losing Agbaji sucks, but we never really had him.
But the real upgrade isn’t comparing incoming to outgoing players. It is that we now can keep an A level offensive initiator on the court at all times. When Rubio is healthy, we’ll have 3.
One of DG/Mitchell on floor at all times plus one of Allen/Mobley on court at all times is the blueprint.
damn that’s exciting!!!! High screen PnR domination!!!
The 4th best starter last year was Markkanen.
Now it is Mobley.
Do we have a list of 0layers heading to camp?
I know we can takeup to 20. The 14 under contract plus I. Mobley & Nembhard (our two-way guys) seem locks. That leaves 4 spots open.
Speaking of open, there is a senior spot open. The Cavs have shown a willingness to roll with 14 early on in case a waiver claim/trade can be made without dropping anyone. But with Rubio already out, that would mean rolling with 13 guys to start.
I’d say that number is higher with their two way guys.
Fedor article just posted saying there are tryouts today and yesterday… also g-league guys might get invited (Mobley, Nembhard)
Also sources: “No Knobs”.
https://twitter.com/ChrisFedor/status/1567543020379054082?s=20&t=HhAvj-hiHzgCczKQBhoS2Q
nice, thanks for posting Simmo
Nice Pod. Typhoid Rudy, love it. Still can’t get above a B- on the trade with the holes it created in the lineup. Hopefully the coaching has the right set of keys to “unlock” Okoro.
Trading the fourth best player, maybe the seventh and tenth best for a guy who would be the best on many teams? — Not a problem in my book.
It is a lot of draft picks.
Apparently other teams (Knicks, …?) were offering slightly less and trying to outwait them. That pretty much establishes what the price is.
the value of mediocre talent is not additive.. the sum of mediocre talent is mediocre talent.. top=tier talent (hard to define, but like pornography, you know it when you see it) is the secret sauce and the path to greatness.. when it is available, you grab it..
Agree, although LM is a step up from mediocre, and who knows what the other two will turn out.
This is how most really good teams have been assembled. It probably backfires more often than not — see NJ + Brooklyn Nets — haha!
We can also debate the #1 picks. If they were for the next few years, sure. 2027? 2029? Swaps in 2026, 2028? The Cavs might not have this core anymore. That’s a few contract extensions from now. And agree with Raoul, you can debate LM’s value but when the team has literally no other proven SF option, it sucks to trade him. Now there are reports of packaging more guys to patch the hole they just created.
There is no hole.
Four all stars is plenty to win it all.
Every other team has some non all stars starting.
i think baby mobes will fill some holes very nicely.. and they should bring the down-under guy up as well.
My previous post is not an endorsement that the move will work, but just saying in terms of a big swing at SG/SF, we did as well as we could do with what was available and what we were offering.
I’d also note we kept our 2024 pick, the year Bronny is eligible.
Obviously the move is a gamble. For a lot of reasons, I am coming around to thinking it is a good one.
The Cavs could also have a potential 30+ million in cap space next offseason to offer a starting wing in the FA pool.
Not anymore. Unless the cap skyrockets.
Garland’s extension kicking in + Mitchell + Allen + Mobley puts us at $95 million, or thereabouts. Add in Rubio and it is $101.
I mean, if we declined Okoro’s & Stevens’ options, cut Cedi, and renounced all our FA’s (Love, LeVert, Lopez, Wade, Neto, Windler), we could have $27 mil or so in cap space. But we’d also only have 5 players and need to sign 10. A lot of vet min guys would be needed. 8 at least (1 big contract & 1 exemption).
that’s exactly how contending teams construct their rosters, wouldn’t surprise me if they took that route if the opportunity presented itself next offseason.
Not really. 3 max guys plus scraps is thin (ask the Nets), and you are advocating for 4 plus Allen at $20 mil?
Again, if the cap skyrockets & we can lock Mitchell/Mobley into extensions before that happens, then maybe. But that will be a couple years down the road.
I just think we already have 4 all-stars. The idea that we need a 5th seems thin. The belief is those 4 + smaller pieces is enough. If not, then I think it more likely we sell off a core four piece (Mitchell) & retool around the others.
What I’m advocating is that the Mitchell trade still maintains the Cavs’ flexibility to bring in a FA wing next offseason, who will cost a lot of money regardless because of positional scarcity.
or absorb a bad contract/overpaid vet into that space and recoup some draft assets.
Pretty much agree. Four all stars is plenty
For fun, SGs and SFs who averaged 20 ppg last season. With age. While I’d prefer Mitchell to be taller & a better defender, I don’t think that guy was abailable. Of the gettable guys at SG/SF, I think it is hard to argue we could have done better than getting Mitchell (without giving up DG, Mobley, or Allen). And his age fits the best. Murray or standing pat were viable options, but I think we were not gonna move while the LBJ door was still open. Player, AVG, GP, POS, Age 1. LeBron, 30.3, 56, SF, 37. Not available.… Read more »
good work.
Great point about availability Jason… I think the only guy that’s truly available on that list beside Murray and Mitchell was Jaylen Brown. I’m actually intrigued by JB but he’s not as proven offensively as Mitchell and they have the same career stock rate.
actually KD was available, but rumors were that the Nets FO was completely unserious in negotiations.
The BurnerPhoner is such a huge gamble. Pretty sure I prefer Mitchell.
As Jason pointed out, Cedi always brings energy. Just for that, he deserves a chunk of minutes every night — run full tilt while in, get a breather when out.
Since we have two ultra fast scoring machines, another non stop guy makes it tougher on the D.
On the occasional nights when he is feeling it, get him the ball.
One more thing I’d like to say about the two small guards thing. Regardless of his height, Mitchell is a bigger dude than Garland. Garland is listed at 192 pounds. Mitchell? 215. If the desire is there (big IF), he is sturdy enough not to get pushed around by any but the biggest 2s (PG13, Brown, etc). Will he struggle if switched onto bigger 3s (Brown, Kawhi) or 2s in ways a taller guy wouldn’t? Sure. But with his weight and wingspan and athleticism, he has the ability not to be a seive. Particularly if he DG share the offensive… Read more »
A BIG WELCOME BACL KARL KOOL—-D.V.M. AT LEAST HAS GENERATED A “CTB REUNION ” ALL WE NEED NOW IS A POST FROM “THE EVIL ONE ” :-)
Hey y’all, it’s been a minute. I’m always reading, never posting. But been keeping up for the better part of the last 7 years. Just wanna say the/our undersized backcourts is an in exact science when you consider that they can both score 50 any night and also prolly have the best defensive frontcourt in the league. Not that it can cover all deficiencies (sp?) But it definitely helps. Also, we have to remember that in small ball era (which may shift a little, partially because of this BOMB ASS TEAM THAT WE PUT TOGETHER), there’s not many actual 3’s… Read more »
hell yeah Karl LETS GOO!!!
Right On!
If we were gonna rank PGs & SGs, how would it shake out?
Curry 1st, then Luka/LeBron (if we are calling them PGs). Next tier would seem to be Dame, Morant, Young, CP3, and Harden. With CP3 and Harden declining. Garland & Murray (both) would seem to be next. Jrue in there somewhere. Maybe Ball.
SG? Booker. Jaylen Brown. Healthy Klay. Mitchell. Non crazy Kyrie. Mitchell has to be top 5, right?
Again, fit may be an issue. Talent should not be.
I feel like Ja has to be put in the first tier, strictly based on Mamba mentality. He’ll get a ring soon.
I worry about fit also but the hype in me wants to believe that they’ll figure it out, assuming Mitch wants to win. Like you said, talent is all there.
Yeah. I just feel like this iteration of the Cavs, with DG, Allen, Mobley, and now Mitchell as the core 4, is good enough to win a title without adding another major (all-star) level piece.
Now, we need those 4 guys to buy-in & mesh and improve. I have zero worries about DG, Allen, & Mobley on that score, and am hopefull on Mitchell.
Improvements or returns to form from our others, be they younger (Okoro, Wade, Stevens, Windler), prime age (Osman, LeVert), or older (Rubio, Neto, Love, Lopez) also needed.
IF—AND A BIG IF—-WINDLER COULD STAY HEALTHY AND ALSO –A BIG IF/ JB. WOULD HAVE CONFIDENCE IN HIM AND GIVE HIM SOME MINUTES —WE MIGHT GET A TRUE EVALUATION OF HIS TALENTS —–STILL HAVE CONFIDENCE HE CAN BE A CONTIBUTOR ON THIS CAVS TEAM
I will say this, while I don’t think the Cavs will make anymore trades presently, and we cannot trade anymore firsts (2031), we do still have some tradeable contracts/players (Love, LeVert, Okoro, Osman) and some seconds. Personally, I’d wait & see how things look with Spida. How LeVert looks year 2, is he a keeper? How does Rubio bounce back? Does Okoro make a jump? Can Wade contribute regularly? Is Cedi leveling up at Eurobasket? But if teams are tanking & racing to the bottom this year, if we can acquire a player who fits us for cheap, we should… Read more »
I wouldn’t invest money in this happening, but just for a second let us imagine….
https://twitter.com/Tony_Pesta/status/1565435824841363457?s=20&t=IcYGC2YAK_TOCr1rOBqavw
He’s apparently looking really good this offseason, and more confident.
He’s honestly exactly what we need if he is a better version of himself and healthy.
https://twitter.com/LawMurrayTheNU/status/1565458321397538816?s=20&t=D7poB8rbdEFrnpkDu3bfVQ
could use a bit more context
Exactly!
Like Mitchell being the centerpiece of the top offense in the league for 2 straight years and dropping 50/40 pt PO games? Yeah, I’d say so. Though he was poor in the POs last year. While the Cavs do not have a brightest level star you build a sol-centric system around (Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, LeBron, Curry, Durant, Luka, Kawhi, etc), I think Mitchell is close to/maybe a Tier 2 guy offensively (Tatum, Butler, Irving, George, Morant, Young, Booker, CP3). And so is Garland. We may not have a first team all-NBA type guy, but we might have 2-3 2nd/3rd team… Read more »
Mitchell is like the fever dream fantasy version of Sexton that the Sexton stanboys imagine.
This. ^
I LOVE CEDI BUT HE “TEASES ” YOU ALL THE TIME THEN GOES BACK TO DISSAPPEARING ——WULD BE NICE IF YOU COULD GET THAT CONSISTENT PERFORMANCE FROM HIM —–GO BUCKS —GOOD –IF NOT A DOMINANT —WIN LAST NIGHT !!
He is just inconsistent. Streaky. That is why he is a bench guy rather than a starter. But he does bring energy most nights.
I think SF is wide open. We do have candidates: Okoro, LeVert, Osman, Wade, Stevens, Windler.
There’s competition at that spot, which I like.
Cedi breakout season??? https://twitter.com/TheCediFanClub/status/1566118937875697664?s=20&t=DhyehoDLQYpk18GJllSIfw
It would be great of one of the forgotten guys takes a big step up this year!
it’s time..
*Austin Carr voice* I agree, Go Cavs
At his age and years of experience it is unlikely. I think he is who he is.
Bulgaria is like the ‘96 Bulls of the EuroBasket!
That’s right Arch!
The Cavs are saying Mitchell is 6’3.
I think the listed heights are now accurate since everyone had to actually get measured a few years ago.
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/10/nba-heights-new-official-durant-zion
So unless he grew I doubt it.
I’m bringing measuring tape to every home game. Sounds like there’s some “heightening” going on!
I think he and DG are both around 6’2”, at least with shoes on.
https://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/releases-mitchell-trade-220903
the stars must be aligned.. looks like spida and ricky are in a love-fest.. when rubio hangs up the shoes the cavs need to bring him on as the guard coach.. here is hoping spida understands that there is no greener pasture out there for the rest of his career.. this is the best of all possible worlds.. very happy that bally has the $19 subscription service coming on line this year.. uncle buck going to watch some hoops
BUCKAROO —YOU MUST BE DRINKING THE ‘WISDOM JUICE ‘ YOUR POSTS ARE RIGHT ON —-GO BUCKS !!!!
thx NOMAD bro.. just selzer and a little diet coke or vernors.. but if we ever hook up with the CtB group to watch a game i will hoist a rock in your honor.. too much alcohol and i am even too miserable for myself to bear..
i would not be too quick to dump levert.. he is a bona fide nba player.. not a scrub.. is he top-tier ? No.. but for what the cavs spent to get him he should get the opportunity to add value to the team.. very doubtful he is going to bring back comparable value.. if he can be part of a package that brings in the 3-D dude.. fine.. never thought i would utter these words, but the cavs are in good shape with koby & co.. ..
agreed, good point
Good pod. I made time to listen all the way through.
So good to have something that matters and we care about to argue about!
Nice, thanks Raoul!
“Walking the dog” is Australian parlance for sneaking out the the pub for a quick drink.
Whenever my wife used to sneak smokes before my youngest was born, she’d say she was “going out for ice cream.”
Clarifying that she stopped when she got pregnant.
🤣 Glad to hear that!
LMFAOOOOOO love it Nate!
We are not exactly flush with options at the 2 (after Mitchell). And not exactly flush with draft picks. I would not be too quick to jettison LeVert. Love, Rubio, and LeVert are a pretty solid trio off the bench. Add in Lopez & Neto and you have 5 realltly solid vets supplementing the core four. Cedi can also be streaky good. If Okoro makes a jump, we are REALLY starting to look good. Wade might be able to give us 80% of Markkanen. Stevens is our dawg. That is 13 guys I am confident will give us SOMETHING on… Read more »
Yeah. You’re not getting anything for LeVert without building his value anyway. And as you noted, the asset cupboard is now bare. I don’t like Stevens’ game, and I think Neto may be washed, but other than that, I’m with you.
You may be right on Neto, but he is essentially PG#4 when we are healthy (DG, Rubio, Mitchell). He is only 31. Too young to be washed, I hope.
I do like Stevens more than most. He cannot shoot, though.
LeVert did not look good last year, but I am willing to give him a more extended look. Asking him to do less might help him. As will more time with his teammates.
Stevens’ mechanics looking better when I saw his videos this summer. My biggest problem is that he is wildly overrated as a defender. He’s not much of a help defender, and a tweener in a bad way individually. Also, JB seems to love him, which means he puts him in bad situations. As for Neto, I hope he’s a decent break glass in case of emergency player. My big hope is that they don’t need to use him much, but he can’t be worse than Pangis, and I did always like him.
I am much less concerned with the other forward position than you guys are. If the Cavs had someone who is as good as you want, they would be favorites to win the chip this season. We need to keep it is perspective. Wade, Windler, Stevens, and Osman can be useful low minutes starters. Each of them has shown a propensity for moving the ball, rotating well, and rebounding the rock. Yes, they have question marks, but they are going to be asked to be a 5th guy anytime they are on the floor. One of them will pop enough.… Read more »
My point is below. No team has won a championship with two 6-1 or shorter guards without an all-world small forward, and FVV and Lowry were oxes. The Cavs have to get a good enough three so teams can’t just mismatch hunt ad nauseum. Maybe that guy is on the team now, like you said, but we haven’t seen a sustainable answer from that group so far.
And don’t take this as bagging on the trade or you. I think they’re a playoff team and am thinking about long term construction.
Your point largely stands, but it is kind of an artificial line, though. Is there that much difference between two 6’1″ guys and a 6’1″ guy and a 6’3″ guy? Especially if the 2nd 6’1″ guy has a 6’9″ wingspan?
It’s an artificial line with a pretty comprehensive history behind it.
Weren’t Thomas/Dumars a shorter backcourt?
Isiah Thomas is a pretty good defender though and Dumars is elite on his time.
I don’t think our backcourt will reach that level defensively.
No. Dumars was 6’3”, Thomas 6’1”. Dumars was pretty stout too and an incredible defender. Thomas had incredible hands.
I feel ya, Nate. I am just banking on Donovan remembering his rookie year defensive effort. He and Garland are both very strong in their base. Are they Lowry, FVV strong? not quite, but neither is weak and DM is long. Is there a difference between an All-world SF and an All-world whatever we call Mobley two years from now? We shall see. To me, it depends how big the eventual three guy. (For later seasons championship contention) As for now, Stevens is a good defender. He isn’t Lou Dort, or Isaac, but he is good and doesn’t get screened… Read more »
I’m with you, Ben. I understand why Altman pulled the trigger, because of two guys: Mobley and Garland. Mobley is ready to explode, agreed, but I think DG is ready to make a claim for All NBA. Altman is probably thinking he can win a title if these guys continue on their track, and I think they can, too.
When you have talents like this, you go for it. Can’t wait for the season.
I’d love to see them flip LeVert for a 3.
I think it’s time to trade LeVert too and find a legit defensive SF.
We have enough offensive fire power and Mobley should be 3rd, at worst, in touches to not impede his offensive growth.
LeVert unfortunately is the odd man out.
Love is 6th man, with Okoro, Rubio, Cedi and Lopez as Herculoids 2.0.
I like him as a 6th man… you need depth for the Finals. 7 deep at least.
Heat writer throwing some shade:
“Meeting Utah’s high asking price for Mitchell reeks of a team “desperate to be relevant,” argues Ira Winderman of The South Florida Sun-Sentinel, who says the Heat didn’t need to acquire the star guard because they’re already relevant. According to Winderman, Durant was worthy of pushing all the chips in the center for because he’s a “generational talent,” but that isn’t the case for Mitchell.“ — Hoops Rumors
He should probably cry more.
LMFAOOOO get their asses MIke!!! Sore losers!
Hey now. We’ve all been witnesses to our own team being blown up. It sucks, it hurts.
Naaaah, you’re right Mike. Nice to see it happen to other franchises. 🤣
He is hust butthurt Miami did not get him and is saying now they never wanted him in the first place.
Like a guy who calls a girl ugly after she turns him down.
Great find. I love the schadenfreude aimed at other teams for once. FWIW, CBS gave the Cavs and Celtics the only A+’s for their off season roster moves. I think they gave the Heat the worst grade, a C-, for not replacing Tucker. That probably explains some of Ira Winderman’s bad day at the office.
i get the concern about the issues related to defense.. yes, you need to be able to get some stops.. you need to make a consistent effort.. (anyone remember the laughable play with quiche several years ago who was turned around like a turnstile, and never even had his arms up on the defensive board ??).. at any rate, i digress.. but, a great offense (and the cavs are going to be an offensive thing of beauty) is one hell of a defensive weapon.. i am not that concerned about the cavs defense.. 50 wins.. minimum..
preach it buck!
Sam Quinn and Colin Ward-Henninger at CBS are both TOTALLY ON BOARD:
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/donovan-mitchell-trade-grades-cavs-load-up-for-present-and-future-jazz-add-to-massive-haul-of-future-assets/
Sam has a good discussion of how a lot of future scenarios might play out.
It might be an over interpretation, but I look at the Mitchell trade and spending draft choices as an investment in our young core. If I’m Mobley and DG I’m thinking, management believes in us and what we’re building and that it’s time to win. The best way to keep the young core happy and staying in Cleveland when they blow up into super stardom is winning.
great point WCC, 100% true… Mobley has two elite guards to play off of now.
100%. Front office investing into now has to pay great dividends to the young guys morale.
Nice pod btw. I hadn’t heard the bit about Melo, at that point, when it was ultimately brought up by Nate.
thanks Arch, that means a lot esp. coming from a diehard like you!
SI’s take:
https://www.si.com/nba/2022/09/02/donovan-mitchell-trade-debate-utah-jazz-cleveland-cavs-nba
Was listening to the Bill Simmons podcast, and they are really high on this trade for Cleveland, but they also mentioned that Mitchell has a 6’9/6’10 wingspan. So maybe the defense won’t be all that bad.
In terms of his whole career he hasn’t been bad for a 6’1 guard. I think the concern would more be pairing him with DG, another 6’1 guard with a slight frame and how much pressure that might put on the rest of the d. I think DG Donovan lineups will be nowhere near as bad defensively as Sexland lineups. They also might not be that much above average if teams game plan and manage to force mismatches though.
Plus he is really athletic. Didn’t he win the dunk contest one year?
Now, his buy-in on D will be the question. But despite his “shortcomings” repative to his height, his wingspan & athleticism suggest he COULD guard most twos.
Hopefully, having both DG & Spida will ease the creative burden of each on O, and hopefully give them more energy for D. Rose colored take, but possible.
He was actually known more as a defender coming out of college. Some of it is probably effort related. Being on a team where most of the guys take pride on that end (even DG is a smart defender who gives effort), we might see a different guy on that end in Cleveland.
It’s mainly usage related… Mitchell is in the Luka/Trae bracket. If he can dial it back up to 10% less on the Cavs, he should be able to give much more effort on defense.
I attribute a fair amount of him getting exposed in some playoff series to that.
for sure, over 30% usage is completely unnecessary on this Cavs team with Mitchell.
It’s a very good point.
Pelton gave the deal a C. But he’s a dope. He values picks and cap space more.
USA Today gave it a B.
SI gave us an A (from one writer).
We found a way to land a legit all-star while keeping DG, JA, and Mobes. It is fit inperfect, though.
Pelton is really bizarre on draft grades. He gave the trade where the Cavs picked up Allen for essentially nothing a C+, I think, because “the Cavs have to pay him now”.
Yes, paying a good player, what a travesty.
It sounds like Pelton’s concern was that the Cavs didn’t run much pick and roll last year and that DG and DM are both pick and roll heavy guards.
What? Cavs ran a lot of P/R
If the Cavs pick a guy from Kansas in Round 1, he’ll never play for us.
Haven’t been on Twitter, but I’d guess LeVert starting at the 3 is about building his value
Hellebe a token starter, hit the bench at 5 minutes, then one of Garland or Mitchell will always be on.
Not so sure about that. I mean, yes, Garland or Mitchell will always be on (at least until Rubio gets back). But when one sits, LeVert likely slides down to the two (if Wade or Cedi or Stevens come in). A token starter, to me, is someone who plays the first 6 minutes of the 1st and 3rd and that is basically it. LeVert will play more than that. Way more. Especially with Rubio out. Starter or not, I’d expect LeVert to play more MPG than anyone outside the core four. Okoro, if he levels up, is the only other… Read more »
I guess I should have clarified. My expectation is what I wrote above combined with what I said on pod. LeVert is featured. He plays the 3 for the first 5 minutes of each half, then he’s a backup guard. Two of LeVert, Mitchell, and Garland are almost always on. The Cavs run a two hybrid guard offense, as do many NBA teams.
Is Twitter saying Ice starts at the 3?
Garland, Mitchell, Okoro, Mobley, Allen.
Rubio, LeVert, Osman, Love, Lopez
Neto, Windler, Stevens, Wade, +1.
It makes sense in terms of timelines for those 5 to start together. Though we need some frontcourt shooting.
It would be hilarious if K-Love matches or exceeds LeBron’s ring total after he left the 2nd time.
I know I am rooting for it.
FWIW, I see a lot of very good teams, but not a super- team. Everyone has flaws. I would not give us contender status (Dubs, Bucks, Celtics, Heat, Clips) or even semi-contender (Suns, 76ers, Nuggets). But I think we are right there with the next group (Grizz, Nets, Minny, Mavs, Bulls, Hawks).
Okoro was the fifth overall pick. He’s had moments when he was very good. He has the tools to be exactly what we need at the three. Consistency comes with time and experience and good coaching to understand roles. He played more minutes, with more responsibility than any young player should. Hopefully those sometimes painful minutes will begin to come to their fruition. That said, Spida is a stud. If you were on the playground and could pick Mitchell or Lauri ( as much as I like him) you’re picking Mitchell without hesitation. Sexton and Garland can’t play together and… Read more »
He is just a tad too small vs some bigger SFs, and is overmatched vs 4s.
He can guard 2s and 1s pretty well, though.
If he can raise his 3PT% by 1-2 pts on higher volume, driving lanes will open up for him.
I think our top 4 is as good as anyones. Potentially better if Mobley & DG level up again.
RAOUL—-I WILL KEEP THE BEER ” ON ICE ” FOR ANOTHER 8 DAYS ——GREAT PEOPLE ARE BORN IN THE MONTH OF SEPTEMBER :-)——–I AM SIMILAR TO JASON 0N THE TRADE—THOUGHT WE GAVE UP WAY TOO MUCH —LAURI IN PARTICULAR// REALLY THINK HE IS GOING TO HAVE A SOLID YEAR —BUT ALSO UNDERSTAND A PLAYER OF MITCHELL’S CALIBER DOESN’T ” JUST FALL ON YOUR LAP ” YOU NEED TO SCARIFICE A LITTLE OF THE FUTURE FOR ” NOW ” !!
Good pod. I listened to most if it.
My reactions were closer to Nate and Eli when the trade was announced, but am closer to Chris the more I thought about it. Despite concerns about fit, perimeter D, the hole on the wing, and the haul we gave up.
The East is loaded, but I think we are top 6 now. Ahead of ATL, CHI, and TOR.
We get the other forward via:
1) Ring chaser/mid level exception
2) Good late 1st/early 2nd pick
3) LeVert trade
4) Internal development (Wade, Stevens, Osman, Ice, Windler).
yup
We should avoid the play in this year. Top 6 seed.
Capology for after this year (2023/24).
8 players under contract.
1. Garland ($33.25)
2. Mitchell ($33.16)
3. Allen ($20)
4. Okoro ($8.9). Team option.
5. Mobley ($8.9). TO.
6. Osman ($6.7). Partial guarantee.
7. Rubio ($6.1).
8. Stevens ($1.9). TO.
—————
Right around $118. Not counting cap holds. Big FA likely out of the cards unless the cap skyrockets.
Interesting, they could get it 16 million more if they renounce rights to Okoro and waive/stretch Cedi
Love, LeVert, and Cedi drop off.
Nate’s grasp of NBA history is a little lacking.
Please expound.
Well, I was referring to the two short guys in the backcourt winning a title line. I do think it has happened more frequently than the once you said (FVV & Lowry). Though it does depend on how short you consider qualifying. Two 6’1″ guys (or shorter), that gonna be tough. I must admit. Though Mitchell being such a great athlete and finisher at the rim helps. 1. Raptors 2018. Lowry 6’0″, FVV 6’1″ 2. Pistons 1989, 1990. Isiah 6’1″, Dumars 6’3″. 3. 76ers 1983: Cheeks 6’1″, Toney 6’3″. 4. Blazers 1977: Hollins 6’3″, Davis 6’2″. 5. Dubs 1975: Beard… Read more »
If you go back further, it gets more common.
GSW just won with Curry, Poole, Klay, Wiggins, and Green/Looney logging lots of minutes as a group. That is pretty small. Regular season, Poole & Curry started.
I’ll counter that exactly what I said on the pod stands. No modern team (not going back to the 50s and 60s) except the Kawhi raptors won a championship with two guards 6-1 or shorter. 6-3 is on the low side for a guard but it’s not 6-1. Your list proved my point. As per the Dubs, Klay didn’t work his way back till mid season, and Poole was clearly a bench guard in the playoffs. Also, they’re 6-2 and 6-4.
Age breakdown at 14:
19-23: E. Mobley (21), Okoro (21), Garland (22).
24-28: Allen (24), Mitchell (25), Stevens (25), Wade (25), Windler (25), Osman (27), LeVert (28).
29-33: Neto (30), Rubio (31), Love (33).
34+: Lopez (34).
NO FOR ME ALSO ON MELO—-BUCKAROO’S WORDS OF WISDOM MENTIONED BRINGING IN THE AUSTRALIA KID —–NOT TOO FAR FETCHED IDEA—-HAS SIZE/ ATHLETICISM/ BASKETBALL I.Q/ CAN DEFEND AND PASS —-THOUGHTS ?
Isn’t he under contract in the Aussie league?
Most Aussie league players have an NBA-out clause…
Not until he can shoot and defend NBA strength and speed.
Both Rubio & Neto played 2 seasons with Mitchell in Utah (2017/18, and 2018/19).
I have concerns about chemistry/diva issues. But if Neto & Rubio are OK, then I think I am OK with it.
I think they’re more than OK, I’d guess Rubio recruited Neto IMO.
Both Mitchell & Garland are respectable spot up guys from deep but both better off the dribble.
If teams blitz Garland in the P&R, Mitchell will kill them. And vice-versa.
For the season:
Wade was 35.9% from deep last year.
Lauri was: 35.8% from deep last year.
WOW THE DONAVAN TRADE—IF NOTHING ELSE —HAS GENERATED SOME ” LATE SUMMER SPARK ” HERE AT CTB —–BAD SALMON HAS JOINED THE “FRATERNITY “—WELCOME ABOARD !!—-WHENEVER WE GET A POST FROM BEN WERTH IT IS SPECIAL—–SPEAKING OF SPECIAL BUCKAROO’S WISDOM NEVER LET’S US DOWN —INSPIRES US—HE HAS INSPIRED ME TO ……….” MORE BEER PLEASE ——HAVE TO REGROUP AND GET BACK INTO ” MY BUCKEYE GAME FACE MODE ” —–THE NOMADS HOUSE WILL BE ROCKING TOMORROW NIGHT —BIG GAME —BUCKS VS NOTRE DAME AND OH DID I MENTION IT IS MY BIRTHDAY !!!!—-BRING ON THE “ROLLING ROCK “—-GO BUCKS —GO CAVS… Read more »
hey! NOMAD is 8 days older than me! more beer please!
Thank you, Nomad! Your encouragement is appreciated.
I know he’s old and washed up, but any thoughts to bringing in Melo on a vet min?
No thanks…(for me)…
No. No. No.
A thousand times no.
Great minds think alike Arch!LMFAO
Haha… I wrote this before hearing it on the pod. It was bound to come up….
Mitchell is the backup PG to start. Not LeVert.
Until Rubio is healthy, one of Garland or Mitchell is on the floor at all times, running the show.
At 6 min or so, one of Garland or Mitchell sits, and LeVert plays the two.
I find it hard to believe they won’t come out starting Okoro. 67 starts his rookie year, 61 starts last year. Maybe he comes out first for Wade.
Just gonna say this once (unless someone disagrees), but I think the Cavs won the Kyrie trade. I can walk you guys through it if you want. Despite the IT flop.
Bottom line, he didn’t screw us the first time. What did Kyrie do for them? And he didn’t screw us this time.
Sexton is a losing player. Agbaji, I liked the pick, but is a role player. And a rookie. Lauri is solid. That hurts. We have a concern at SF.
Agree on hating Ainge, though.
But Mitchell is a stud. Utah had the best record in the league, what, 2 years ago? Mitchell has the bona fide clutch gene. He has more 50 pt PO games than anyone but Jordan.
Defensive issues with 2 small guards remains a concern. GSW did do OK with Curry & Poole.
I think the Cavs will play a lot of zone.
spittin facts Jason!
I do like the suggestion of Wade starting at the 3.
But I think they’re starting LeVert.
Think Fedor said he’s hearing the same…at least as of right now…
Wade or LeVert?
LeVert.
Excited to listen to this today. One nice thing about the trade is that Sexton gets a nice deal for him ($18M / year) and we don’t have to be the one paying it. Happy for him!
Yep, had the same thought. Cheers to Collin. Good dude. His Nets big-3 debut spoiler game was an all-timer in great Cavs moments.