Live Thread: Pistons @ Cavs
2024-01-31Good evening CtB!
The Cavs welcome Central Division opponent the Detroit Pistons to the shores of Lake Erie for a proverbial trap game for the good guys. The Cavs just came off of beating one of the hottest teams in the Association in the Los Angeles Clippers. Evan Mobley performed satisfactorily in his first game back, and it should be expected that he’ll drastically improve as the rust shakes off. Darius Garland is rumored to be back as well, and the Pistons are the perfect opponent to ease him back into the rotation as well. With an easy schedule ahead, this is the time where the Cavs have to make a run for playoff positioning now that we’re halfway through the season.
FROM THE LIVE THREADS:
Resident CtB shooting coach NOMAD poses an interesting question here, which guy should the Cavs dangle? The correct answer is both. But if it’s between the two, Isaac Okoro is the clear and obvious choice, especially if doing damage in this year’s playoffs is the goal. Okoro is strictly a defensive specialist with zero offensive game to speak of, and over the course of 7,000 NBA minutes played, his production has remained static over the course of his entire career.
On the flip side, Okoro’s age might trick some team into believing in his upside. But as long as the Cavs have guys such as Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland, Evan Mobley, and Jarrett Allen, the opportunities for growth simply won’t be there for Ice. To his credit, Okoro’s been the ultimate team player, sacrificing his individual production for team success. That can’t be underestimated, given how hard it is to find players with that kind of mature mentality.
WHO ARE THE TRADE PIECES?
If the Cavs should make a move, who are the tradeable pieces? The quick and dirty answer is anyone outside of the core four. However, given the performances so far of Max Strus, Dean Wade, and Sam Merrill there’s no way their trade value would exceed their production. That would leave Caris LeVert, Georges Niang, and the aforementioned Okoro. The problem with trading any of this trio is again the limited value they have out on the market. The Cavs will need NBA veterans to do any damage in the playoffs, and in spite of their subpar regular season production, Niang and LeVert have the playoff experience that will be necessary to elevate the younger players come playoff time. With Okoro, he’s an “innings eater” that saves regular season wear and tear on the star players. Part of the benefit of Okoro is his ability to be physical and stay healthy over the course of the marathon that is the NBA regular season. Sprinkle in the recent success of the Cavs, and it’s easy to argue why the Cavs ought to stay put unless there’s an offer they can’t refuse.
YOU ARE FAKE NEWS
Yours truly is reticent to respond to troll posts such as these, but since this poster hasn’t been banned yet allow me to set the record straight. As the chief Caris LeVert supporter of this blog, it’s precisely because of LeVert’s versatility that I prefer to keep him over say a one-way only player such as Okoro. This poster also clearly underestimates the obvious versatility of players such as Dean Wade, who does everything better on a basketball court than Niang, or a Sam Merrill who does many things better on a basketball court than Isaac Okoro. If any of these players lack versatility, it’s Niang and Okoro. Niang is an offense only player who cannot defend multiple positions like Wade does, does not score as efficiently as Wade does, and does not even playmake better than Wade does (Wade assist ratio 14.0, Niang’s 11.9, which is worst on the team this season).
The same story goes when comparing Merrill to a defense only player such as Okoro. Merrill scores more efficiently on significantly higher usage than Okoro. Merrill is a better defensive rebounder, better playmaker who takes care of the ball better, and has the most charges drawn this season on the team in spite of playing less than 75% of the games Okoro has. Now Okoro clearly is a more versatile perimeter defender, but I’d argue it doesn’t result in more team success given the Cavs’ defensive ratings with each player (Cavs’ drtg with Merrill 109.5, with Okoro 109.2). Merrill’s offensive versatility far outweighs what Okoro brings on the defensive end so far this season, and what’s the point in Tower City if Coach JB Bickerstaff won’t surround them with dead eye shooters with Steph Curry-like production from three?
Unfortunately for some, feelings get in the way of objective analysis, and worse, the attempt to slander the good folks at CtB sucks the fun out of banter. Such is life on the internet. Back to the day job and school for yours truly…
Tip off is scheduled for 7:00PM Eastern time and will be broadcasted live on Bally Sports Ohio, Go Cavs!
Allen with a rock star spin move
He’s just automatic around the basket
Lwvwrt ain’t it.
Ph. I thought he got an offensive foul. Whew.
Clutch
Tough on nthe boards.
Spida visibly pissed about D breakdowns
Maybe Strus & DM having disagreement.
Man what is wrong with our defense we keep leaving open looks
JB with the TO after a TO to give Mitchell a breather.
Strus seems angry on the bench
He should be.
Mitchell hero Balling the Cavs into a tie.
DM3!!!
I miss blowing away teams!
The D is….not good.
Come tf on.
Hive max a rest plz.
I second that emotion.
Spida keeping us afloat.
As Sir Alex Ferguson used to say “Squeaky bum time.”
Big freebie, Caris.
Really interesting game.
I have watched the Pistons a couple times and they have played well for 42 or 45 minutes and then it just implodes on them.
Hope it happens again.
Good call sir!
Looks like Mitchell has to take every shot
I hope that is not what he is thinking.
Cavs dodging bullets
Strus is spent. Give it two minutes & put Sam in.
We have stunk at the start of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th.
Did Garland start the second?
Yep.
And the 3
Cavs got a tiger by the tail.
No Garland, thank God.
14-4 run by Pistons to start the 4th
Merrill or Caris for Strus to close.
Garland gotta shoot that
Just terrible defense.
JB is gonna lose this game if he keeps screwing around.
Ot isn’t like Bogey or Burks or Cade cannot get hot here.
And Gallinari is killing it.
DG getting us great looks but energy just weird
Yeah
JB done fucking around.
Good god no more Niang at the 5
Yeah it’s worth trying out but it’s not the wave
Woof. Niang. Five point whiff.
Yep. Dropped his head, didn’t get back on D. One of my pet hates.
Wade worst dribbler since shumpert
The lineups without DG or Spida or Mobley/Allen puzzle me. Keep ONE of each out there.
Not us yelling at JB to shorten the rotation???? Lmao
Keep the anchors in.
Who could have seen that coming?
It is not complicated. ONE of DG/DM + ONE of Mobley/JA.
Yeah I agree. Not mad at trying it against DET in a Feb game but let’s not go there again
Your not alone
That was a weird ass lineup.
So is this one. Detroit will take the lead here.
Every time we get up 7-10 pts, Detroit closes it down again.
I low key blame JB. I hated that last lineup so much
Why are we playing all bench guys?
Garland on minutes restriction. Front end of back to back.
Yeah I guess experimenting with five out is OK to try
Shit maybe not! That was ass.
DG playing slooow but has been efficient and effective. Just not on same page yet
There’s just something about Okoro in the last month or two. Demeanor in between plays and interviews, he just suddenly seems to be mature, the boy is gone.
He’s been a bad MF all year. Just so impactful
His analytics have gone up too.
Yep. Or maybe I am just seeing what I want to see. Glad someone else sees it, too. The defense only guy has 12 points on 5-6 FGs. 4 steals. Generally, I like guys who are two way guys better. But guys who are elite at anything are hard to find. If they aren’t killing you on some other aspect, they should be keepers. I think Ice’s O and Merrill’s D are not crippling. Though you do have to watch the matchups and who they are out there with. Okoro-Mobley- Allen is not gonna work unless someone’s shot improves a… Read more »
How many steals is that for Ice? Three or four?
Not gonna rush to judgement yet.
The Pistons have been playing better lately, and are healthier.
Garland is playing well offensively. Mobes looks spry. And I do not mind getting a triple up.
But I just think we are better (most of the time) wirlth DG/DM and or EM/JA staggered.
Yeah there were plenty of weird vibe games in December after the injuries (even though we won) …it’s just funky rn
Weird vibe.
Feel like Cavs will not be their best selves with DG & Spida on the floor together.
Might want to give him a few games. He’s been good just not quite sure about how to play the new style at game speed.
I like the plan of him getting shots and being aggressive from jump. This still reads as a pretty comfortable win
Looks like same defense we saw first 20 games. Whoever told Mobley to shoot 3 is a not wise person
Late to the game. Questions:
Are Cavs playing with their food?
Has Mobley been attempting threes?
Their chemistry is weird.
DG tends to search and wait for the great dish or drive moment instead of taking the quick pass that makes things a little better and builds to a great shot.
Still, love the kid and great to see him back and playing pretty well. Seems like Detroit will cool off and Cavs can take command.
This is a great observation.
Wasn’t able to comment earlier. The thing that is so palpable with Garland: he is not used to playing as fast as the rest of these guys, both in terms of starting the offense as well as executing the office.
Up 7. I will take it.
JB is gonna have to experiment with rotations. And early retirns with DG & Mobes after so long a layoff may be deceptive.
My suggestion would be to give Strus a rest. He looks worn down. He has started every game.
I think I’m there too. Maybe Vert as well, get CPJ those minutes.
Detroit shooting the cover off but still down 7 feels right.
Merrill was great, this is a good matchup for him. Okoro good too and Niang useful.
Wade…kind of invisible?
He only played 5 min.
Wade is often kind of invisible. He plays good D. Much better than Niang, and at multiple spots. However, on O he is strictly a floor spacer. He has got nothing in terms of dibbling, or creating/scoring off the bounce. Niang does.
Wade is a much better defender.
Niang is a superiorc scorer, dribnler, and passer.
Deep shooting is about dead even. Wade better this year, Niang career wise.
Superioric?
One thing Wade has changed from the past couple years, though, is shot volume. The 3 is all he’s got, yes, but he’s no longer hesitating to let it fly when open.
We have been doing a lot better since Ice & DM checked back in.
Lordy, Sam can shoot.
Mobley looks great
The lineup to end the first was too defensive, the one to start the second too weak on D.
If you are gonna have DG + Merrill, we need Wade instead of Niang. Merril + Niang has to mean Mitchell or CPJ at point. Or Caris.
17 points in 4:30.
DG, Sam, Niang cannot guard worth a dang.
Yeah…this lineup needs Ice
DG, Sam, LeVert, Niang, Mobley.
Merrill & DG to start the 2nd.
Detroit scored 15 points in the first 6 minutes.
Ice checked in. 8 in the last 6.
Yes, small sample and their backups playing more, of course.
Okoro plus 5
This lineup worries me: LeVert, Strus, Okoro, Niang, Mobley
I don’t hate it but Vert leaving a lot of points on the floor.
Generated 10 3s so far
Duren has a bright future.
Wouldn’t mind a Burks buyout, but a 3/4 would be my preference.
Can Caris NOT turn it over?
I think we will play better when DG/Mitchell and Mobes/Allen do not share the floor. Or at least one pair broken up.
But Okoro gonna tank the offense!
Okoro deflection to open transition 3
TO to give DG a blow.
17-15.
Re: trades. Big picture we’ve been smoking hot & just got Mobley & DG back. I think trading a core four piece in the next week has a zero percent chance of happening. Zero. Further, we have next to no draft capital to trade. I don’t think we can trade a first and are down to two seconds. While LeVert, Wade, Niang, Merrill, & Okoro all have value of a sort, you cannot bundle them + a 2nd to get a star. You are just re-arranging the chairs, at best. Plus, vibes are good and their value to us is… Read more »
Re: Wade – the one thing he does not do as well as Niang is handle and drive. Wade has a higher assist ratio because he is a good offensive rebounder and gets scramble assists there when the defense is not set. By contrast, Okoro and Niang can do something with the dribble against a set defender without advantage. Wade can’t. Merrill can’t. I know we think it’s all numbers but this shit isn’t Settlers of Catan or Yakuza RPG: it’s ball and minute differences in advanced analytics are not the primary factor in evaluating a players skill and utility… Read more »
Niang’s differences aren’t minute. They’re drastic.
He’s been a useful player as a playmaker in ways Wade cannot be. AST ratio without context is not really capturing that.
Wade takes two dribbles and IMMEDIATELY bailed out
VALID QUESTIONS SB—- AS OF RIGHT NOW—/ YES —-THINK CAVS GO THE BUYOUT ROUTE——- UNLESS THERE IS A “ GODFATHER “ OPTION 👍🏀
Hot question. Are we sure Mobley is part of the “core 4”?
Hotter question. Are we sure that Mobley AND Garland are part of the “core 4” if Mitchell commits?
Yes. And yes. Bye
Yes and Yes.
Though I think if we melt down (not just lose) in the playoffs again there could be a rethink.
GREAT JOB CLF👍-HOPE CAVS PLAY LIKE YOU WRITE 👍👍—/THANKS FOR THE SHOUT OUT —-DID I EVER MENTION SAM MY MAN WAS A REGULAR AT MY SHOOTING CAMP——OBVIOUSLY HE LEARNED WELL 👍🤪🏀———- GO CAVS -/— TIME TO MAKE A MOVE
Nice stuff Chris. I actually don’t think the Cavs do much at the deadline unless there’s a major improvement opportunity. I like the Cavs’ ability to create match-up and lineup versatility with a deep roster. As much as I’d like them to get a stretch big, 4/5 or 3/4 of impact, I think they’d have to move a core piece to do anything other than reshuffle deck chairs, so I think they don’t mess with the vibes, which are immaculate right now.
Majorly disagree with your opinion that defense is not important.
Having a top defender such as Okoro is a huge plus. If the Cavs actually “dangled Okoro”, the phone system would crash from teams trying to steal him.
Let me pose this question: Are the “trade Okoro” people the same ones who want (or, wanted) to trade JA? What is the common denominator?
I don’t think that’s true at all, but I’m hoping that defensive specialist with long term upside is his ceiling. I don’t agree with Chris that the aging curve is flat for Okoro, and I think he’s still improving. He’s a lousy defensive rebounder but his d-epm is 92nd percentile. His o-epm is is -9 but his TS% is 59: solid. Okoro tempers his offensive shortcomings with very good shot selection (sometimes to a fault), and he’s not killing the Cavs nearly as much as he has in seasons past. Niang has been by far the worst addition of the… Read more »
What other 3/4s were there for Niang’s salary?
If you can’t find more than like 4 comps with the same skill set and similar availability for cheaper then it was fine. (I can’t think of any but happy to be wrong)
Okoro’s ceiling is 2017 Iggy
But even if Niang is the worst no one has really been underperforming
Man. You’re forgetting how good iggy was offensively.
He was a great playmaker. Okoro has a lot of those characteristics. It’s a ceiling though.
He’s just not that guy. He has some olaymaking ability, but people forget iggy was an all star and Jimmy Butler light style player.
Maybe not. Jimmy started as kind of an all defense no offense guy too. Let’s see
this guy can’t shoot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0Wys17Ia9o
https://www.nba.com/watch/video/georges-niang-10-points-highlights-vs-la-clippers
Show me where I said “defense is not important.” That’s right, I never said it.
Good piece Chris. Though we disagree about a ton, and I still think you put WAAAAY too much stock in +/-, ORtg, and DRtg type stats.
Okoro is a main bone of contention. Merrill is an adequate defender, but he’s mostly playing against backups. And writing another piece discussing Okoro without mentioning him shutting off Dame & Harden recently is borderline journalistic malpractice, or evidence of bias. Russ was eating Merrill up and he got yanked. You tried to give Okoro some credit, but could not quite bring yourself to do it. But the effort is appreciated.
You know ball
Sorry, just not into one way players who tank the offense every time they touch the floor, *shrug*
Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere:
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2024/1/26/24050272/sam-merrill-cleveland-cavaliers-3-point-shooting