The Point-Fourward: Old Guys Need Days Off
2017-07-20Four points I’m thinking about the NBA and a bonus Rose…
1. Considering all the hoopla surrounding Lonzo Ball‘s footwear, it was fitting that he collected his Summer League MVP in street clothes. One might be confused into thinking that the thin young man is a Zoolander protégé. Though, considering his ability to pass with either hand, I suppose he is more of a Hansel.
On the court, count me as one of many who is more than a little concerned with Ball’s funky shot mechanics. It has been well documented that Ball’s shooting percentages suffer when he drives to his right. That cross-faced release is very difficult to get off with the defender automatically on his release side. He is much more accurate with his step-back jumper going left.
It is true that most right-handed players are more comfortable using the right foot as their step-back foot. It keeps the right shoulder in line with the target, thus mitigating a lot of left/right body lean problems. LeBron is a prime example. His natural fall to the left becomes a straight fall away when he shoots from the left wing. A fall away is always better than a lean.
That is why so many people are skeptical of Ball’s unorthodox stroke. It isn’t such a problem that his shot is nontraditional. The problem is that his kinetic chain is too easily disturbed. He may drill some beautifully high arching bombs, but when he misses, he misses horribly.
It’s not difficult to make him miss. Any good defender can pick up on release point consistencies, but it’s often more important to check landing points.
Most great shooters go straight up and down on their jumpshot. Still, many other fantastic shooters get that slight hip momentum going forward causing them to land a bit closer to the target. There are a slew of streaky shooters who rely too heavily on that hip momentum. Think Chandler Parsons pre-injury.
What great shooters all have in common is that they don’t move laterally. The Sports Science video doesn’t talk about his right to left body fade. The weight transfer isn’t quite as important as the release point, but it is still hugely relevant. Lonzo Ball jumps forward and left on every shot. His landing point is predictable for the defender and since his release isn’t super quick and is in front of him, he is particularly easy to defend. NBA players will closeout hard to the left side of his body and trust that his funky kinetic chain will do the work for them if Ball evades them to the right.
2. Sometimes one’s greatest talent hinders skill acquisition. Lonzo Ball has the softest passing touch on the rock that I have seen from a rookie in years. His otherworldly ability to flick the ball with appropriate velocity over great distances must have made it almost unnecessary for him to construct a normal shot. When the ball rockets effortlessly from one’s fingertips, hip-angle discussions must seem a bit superfluous.
Since Ball has yet to show any defensive ability or high-level Pick and Roll play in the half-court, I have a hard time anointing him as anything other than an exciting rookie with things to learn.
He is nowhere near the athlete or defender that Jason Kidd was early in his career. Honestly, he reminds me more of a tall Brandon Jennings than the Bucks’ head coach. I do expect Ball to be substantially more effective than Jennings, but he has a long way to go before he can be a crunchtime player on a Finals team.
3. As the Cavaliers look around the scrapheap for guys that could make an impact come Finals time, it is important to remember that some of those very same players will not be assets during the regular season. For all the very nice macro data we have for regular season play, much of it is rendered completely useless once the real season rolls around.
We have seen first hand how differently Kyrie Irving plays defensive in December versus June. While it is true that effective regular seasons by role players would help to keep LeBron James fresh for the silly season, it is more important for the Cavaliers to surround the King with guys that he can trust in big moments.
For as much as I have detested Jeff Green‘s game over the years, he did show up against LeBron’s Heat teams on more than one occasion. If there is any chance for the veteran to turn his career around, it would be with James in his ear. If nothing else, the Cavs have not seen a lot of lazy playoff play from role players during the LeBron 2.0 era. An engaged Green might make me not want to calmly close my computer. Again, I am NOT discussing the regular season.
With that in mind, Jose Calderon also has had the confidence to deliver in big situations throughout his NBA and International career. I don’t expect the Spaniard to be particularly useful for the 82 game slate, but he is the type of player LeBron can trust to nail a big three. And he does still get fiery at times.
4. Since youth doesn’t seem to particular interest the Cavs’ brass (whoever that may be at this point), it might be wise to look at another old man with supreme basketball IQ.
Boris Diaw has been a favorite player of mine for over a decade. His unique combination of skill and intelligence often hides his still incredibly quick feet. Utah recently waived the French point-forward after signing Thabo Sefolosha. He too might not be the most locked in regular season player, but Diaw has been consistently effective in the playoffs, often playing crunch-time minutes against the other teams’ wing superstar.
Diaw was crucial to the Spurs’ success in their destruction of LeBron’s last Heat squad. If LeBron likes Green because of his play as an opposing player, he should love Diaw. Boris may have lost another half step to age and wine, but he was still able to shut down Kevin Durant as recently as this spring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwnbA1IyHhY
Green has never shown himself to be a particularly high IQ player, but Calderon and Diaw are both basketball geniuses with wine ice water in their veins. The Cavs haven’t always played the most intelligent basketball and they have had the tendency to get too uptight in the regular season. It’s possible that free spirits like Calderon and Diaw and a spirit free guy like Green could end up moving the needle by moving the rock. If nothing else, LeBron could get wine recs from his one time nemesis, Boris.
BONUS RANT:
For the second straight week, I have been putting the finishing touches on an article as Cavaliers news has broken. Last week, I was pleased to find that Cedi was to officially join the Cavs.
This week, I am in a mild state of shock, awe, and utter annoyance at the report that Derrick Rose may be coming to Cleveland. I am not going to pull any punches. Signing Derrick Rose would be a mistake. He is a high usage, low efficiency player on offense and a total disaster on the defensive end. Even before injuries sapped his explosion, Rose was a minus defender that struggled to grasp team defensive principles. Post-injuries, his diminished lateral quickness has made it all but impossible for him to guard opposing point guards.
But, he is DERRICK ROSE?! Yes, and that is a huge problem. It is helpful that he no longer has to live up to a large contract, but he has still yet to grasp his current place as an NBA role player. He provides limited play-making, zero floor-spacing and low IQ shots from the mid-range. Jeff Green doesn’t care enough to hi-jack an offense. Jose Calderon is too smart to do so. Derrick Rose will think he is the final part of a SuperTeam. Iman Shumpert‘s offensive forays in transition will seem pragmatic in comparison.
Rose can provide the occasional highlight leading less casual fans to conclude for the 14th time that “He’s baaack!” He’s not. And truth be told, he was never really that great to begin with.
Until now, I was quietly optimistic that the Cavs’ quiet off-season was a sign of patience and competency. If this signing goes through, the off-season looks more like it has been run by a dude who won his Fantasy League in 2011.
D Rose and Lebron to begin working out together in Vegas. This is finally some good news for the CAVS, since the past two weeks. ESPN has said Bledsoe, has already been working out with Lebron in Vegas. Don’t know much about Bledsoe, but he averaged 21 ppg last year. Good deal if it happens.
I think there is a good chance this will blow over. So far, KI and LeBron have kept quiet. That is the key. If they start publicly insulting each other, it is toast. The Rolling Stones had more than a year when Mick and Keith would not even talk, but at least they kept their mouths shut. Unlike the Beatles, where John and Paul started fighting publicly, which made it too hard to ever get back. In the case of the Stones, management scrounged up some discarded tapes and cobbled together the “Flowers” album to make it look like the… Read more »
Media will put words on each other and at some point, they will speak against each other or like Lebron’s case.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/lebron-seems-to-respond-to-irvings-trade-request/ar-AAoC2QK?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=wispr
Some random thoughts, cavs underachieving in regular season and the losses could have contributed to Kyrie/Lebron rift. Winning cures all and if Cavs haven’t lost 30 or so reg season games, lesser the chance of a rift. However, Kyrie is making worst decision of his life time. Here are few instances someone leaves a great teammate and what happened after wards. * Joe Johnson wanted to be his own man leaves Nash’s suns, goes to Atlanta, makes boats load of money as the most overpaid athlete of his generation with lot of losing. * Marbury leaves KG’s Wolves and well,… Read more »
First point is whacky. They don’t give a sh!t about 30 loses as long as they get into the playoffs. When you win the early playoff rounds 4 – 0, it doesn’t much matter who has home court advantage. Second point is right on the money. I had already said it, but your excellent examples illustrate how it goes. Except for Nash, he never wanted to go. Cuban had a brain fart. Agree that the Mavs might have won several if they had kept Nash. Cuban wanted to use the money for someone. Probably no one remembers who it was.… Read more »
Agree that he’ll most likely look at it as a mistake one day. (Or perhaps he won’t, but likely that observers will) Really though, this is what KI is – he’s a selfish player, always has been. He’s in one of the best situations he could be in, he can kind of do whatever he wants and still be winning on a glamour team, because Lebron is so good. Irving’s ‘brand’ has not suffered at all, quite the opposite. Yet it’s not enough. Hope him being ‘the focal point’ works out for him, but I don’t see it working out… Read more »
+1. Like you, I see him as an all star but not a franchise player who will elevate other players. Utah will not suit him as he won’t get as much attention. Knicks is the best place for him, lot of drama and he will be in news even if for wrong reasons.
I’d differentiate Nash because Cuban was lowballing him. His offers were well below the suns, and I’m sure Cuban had all his money tied up in ridiculously overpaid big men like Adonal Foyle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bohHnac8qwQ
I wouldn’t take Kings table scraps for Irving. We need a legit star back. Was re-watching game 5 of 2016 finals tonight; Irving’s ability to get buckets was so crucial
KINGS HAVE DENIED THE TRADE RUMOR —BUT YEAH I WOULD GO FOR THAT TRADE
https://twitter.com/basketballtalk/status/889251314298912768
Could be true. Could be accurate that Kyrie thinks it’s true even if it isn’t. But the source is Stephen A…
WOW… Sea of Blue(?) with a report that the Kings offering Fox for Kyrie! I’d take Fox, Jackson, Hield, and a pick or two.
“you think Dejuan Wagner still got game?” https://youtu.be/bC81hoqp4iI
Lol.
WHEN IS D.ROSE TO MAKE HIS DECISION—-THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE THIS WEEKEND OR TOMORROW—-AM SURE KY’S ANNOUNCEMENT MAY SWAY HIM HERE
Last I heard, he’s taking a few more days to think about it…later this week…
Please God, no.
https://twitter.com/BenAxelrod/status/889127108081061896
No question that David Griffin was doing a good job, and it is a shame how it ended up.
Now I hope Koby Altman will do an even better job.
Griffin was tremendous. One of the best GMs I have ever seen.
Gilbert is a complete, utter moron. As so many republicans are.
Yeah. What ever happened to normal Republicans?
Here is an exception: Just saw today that Jeb Bush is calling out the entire party for criticizing Obama for being soft on commies, and now sporting sh!t-eating grins while Trump sells us out to the Russians.
This is why I hate Brian Windhurst:
“And there was no remark when a text message from Indiana Pacers general manager Kevin Pritchard undid an agreement on a blockbuster deal for George the Cavs were just starting to celebrate, a moment that now lives in infamy within the organization.”
WTF did the text say??? What was the blockbuster deal the Cavs were just starting to celebrate???
He gives just enough tantalizing info to be interesting, yet not enough info to be informing.
He said the deal was off. I’m 100% sure Herb Simon killed it.
Oh. Guess I shoukd have kept reading the whole piece first! Details buried at the bottom of the article. #my mistake
But I still don’t like Brian Windhurst…
For those of you buying into LeBron planning to go to LA and join Team LeVar, this sounds like something LeBron would love to be a part of:
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20135974/lavar-ball-pulls-big-ballers-aau-team-court-receiving-technical-foul
Dude’s an ass.
Cavs don’t need to get stars in return. They need athletic players that can defend and shoot. No ego. Just a desire to win.
Cavs should get rid of Kyrie, Shump, Felder, and even TT if they can find a cheaper replacement.
Great idea! I will play for TT for the Vet min! You can play for Shump.
https://twitter.com/jackpowers22/status/889136875100876800
https://twitter.com/12upSport/status/889185184893075457
Three intriguing trades floated online all for Kyrie and Shump 1)Kemba and MKG 2) Melo and Beverly 3) Delly, Brogdon, and Middleton
Kemba and MKG for me. Leb kemba JR MKG and Love linups win everything all the time.
You crack me up. A shrimp and a guy who can’t shoot. Smh.
Not gonna lie, a starting lineup of –
D. Rose
JR
LeBron
Love
Boogie
sounds interesting…
Warriors sweep!!!
Considering the stat line of Cousins/Rose will out score/reb that of Ky/TT, I don’t see how you can say it’s a sweep.
Plus you get TT off the bench with a smart PG in Calderon and a solid bench with Green and KK…
D.Rose sucks and won’t be able to score vs. GS, and Boogie is fat and will get run off the court.
Doubt Rose would even be healthy enough to play, but miracles occur, I suppose.
Remember the time tested theory that a BB team can do alright with one knucklehead, but two or more are poison? JR might have retired his knucklehead portfolio, but Rose is All – World, and Boogie is beyond just being a clown.
Is D. Rose still a possibility? Not saying he can/will outplay Kyrie but at the moment we seem to be needing a solid PG.
And, …, what do solid and Rose have to do with either?
The big short is a really
Good movie.
I liked it, but it made me as pissed off at those knuckleheads as I was in 2008 and 2009. That wasn’t pleasant.
The upside for Nate is if the Cavs are better without Kyrie he gets to laugh in our faces.
Good thing you’re above that kind of nonsense…
Yep.
And people still blame immigrants and poor people. If only we had a functioning press
I’ve never laughed in people’s faces for being right, and I’ve freely admitted when I’ve been wrong.
Is it realistic to keep Kyrie? This is a key question IMO. If it’s possible to keep him without causing locker room and on-court issues then we have the ability to turn down crappy trades. If it’s not realistic then we may end up trading him for not too much.
I don’t believe it is. Give me a previous scenario in the NBA when a star player wanted out to “be the man” and then did an about face and was a productive leader/player/winner on their original team. And the Kobe example is not compatable…he wanted out because he didn’t see any surrounding talent on the roster and then they got Gasoline and he was a happy little goat from then on.
We don’t have to go back very far at all. Paul George wanted out this whole season and still turned in one of the best seasons of his career and one of his best playoff series. You really think Kyrie in the playoff/finals next year will just give up? I mean this is a guy that supposedly wants to win. I don’t see him laying an egg against Curry, Isiah Thomas/Markell’s Fulton, or Lowry. The dude lives to show up other point guards in the playoffs. There was tension between Durant and Westbrook for their entire time together to the… Read more »
I think it’s very realistic. I think we trade him if we get a ridiculous offer or just keep him, let cooler heads prevail and have the boys work it out in the locker room. Shaq and Kobe didn’t like each other, but they stilled balled out while playing together. Yeah this is a little different of a situation, but in the end I think this can be worked out. Take out their anger/frustration on the opposing teams.
Absolutely. For one thing, it is in his best interest. People are always whining about their current circumstance. Usually they realize the grass is not always greener on the other side before they do something dumb. If he goes to another team, the best he is likely to see is like Paul George had it with the Pacers. Maybe get to the playoffs. Possibly win a round.
If he has any sense, he will soon hold a presser and say “that was just a joke, like the flat earth”.
Raoul. Unfortunately for the “adults” is that Cols was correct the last three years. During every meltdown he assured everyone that the Cavs were easily making the Finals. Now, this is a time to actually meltdown because losing your 2nd best player really sucks.
However, I think we are still making the Finals.
You are right about the Finals. Either Kyrie will stay, or they will get some decent players for him.
Usually the adults at CtB take turns trying to talk sense to Cols when he is on the wrong end of a bipolar swing. Suddenly a crew from the other side of the space/time/logic continuum has shown up with outlandish theories that Cols could never come up with. Maybe this is a Russian hacking bot that went rogue from a voltage surge when they screwed with the electric power of the Ukraine. We should hire Sean Spicer to deal with them.
I agree, Raoul. I think that Nate Smith dude is off his rocker too!
Nate has always hated Kyrie.
Nope. I don’t hate anyone really. And my only sports hate was reserved for Miami LeBron, the Dubs, the oakland raiders, and rasheed.
Nah. You have been a huge Kyrie basher since LeBron came back. No one will ever forget the stupid cartoon that was posted and you spent an entire thread making fun of Kyrie.
Lol. No one except me.
I wanted to trade him for Chris Paul. I don’t rate him too much either because GSW have his measure now. They know him and Love don’t get back in transition and they exploited it.
There’s a difference between having a realistic view of someone and hating them.
Hahahaha. Saying trade Kyrie and start Delly is far from a realistic view.
God, I wish they could do that now!
No Yankees???
I know. I download the podcasts. I have always liked Kyrie. But I’m a realist and it’s like the High Sparrow said on Game of Thrones, “A disgruntled star player in the NBA is like a boil. And lancing a boil is never pleasant. But it must be done.”
Well, he pretty much said that…
Ok, here we go… let’s do this! http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ychjto8z 3 team trade — Cavs, Knicks, Nuggets. Denver gets Kyrie and Shump from Cavs. Knicks get Shump (back) from Cavs and Wilson Chandler and PF Faried from Nuggests. Cavs get Melo and W. Hernangomez from Knicks and Mudiay (on the cheap for 2 years) and J. Hernangomez (on the cheaper for 3 years). Cavs win because we get one of Lebron’s besties (Melo), a decent PG sure to improve playing with Bron (Mudiay) and the Hernangomez brothers (who would instantly be Cavs fan favorites, in name alone). Denver wins because they get… Read more »
Dear God, that’s awful. Mudiay stinks so far and the Hernangomez boys are 14-20th pick level talent and big men in a wing/guard league.
Awful? I don’t think so. It “satisfies” is how I like to think about it. Plus, we don’t need a blazing-talent level PG when we have point-Lebron anyways. Melo’s ball domination won’t leave alot of PG plays to go around anywho. Plus, with the Hernangomez bros we get some much needed brother-love on this team plus some peeps to make Calderon feel at home. I like it. Give me a better trade…
Who cares about Calderon? The guy won’t or shouldn’t play more than 3 minutes a night. He shouldn’t even have been signed. Put a fork in his career. Melo is basically heading their too, at least compared to his contract. Melo on a vet min or the other MlE after a buyout is one thing, Melo at his current contract is absurd and awful. Dude can’t play d and can’t score efficiently anymore.
Bledsoe and Josh Jackson for Kyrie is actually a trade that helps and 1 million times better than that nonsense.
I’d rather have Drew Bledsoe and Jimmy Jackson than those guys! How would getting either of those players actually satisfy LBJ? A little clutch sports connection but that’s it. Plus, if we move Shumpert out Mudiay will be the perfect punching bag for us Cavs fans to hit on. I like it, I don’t care what you poop heads say!
Josh Jackson. Bledsoe is a Klutch client, and offers far better d than Kyrie and 20ppg at the point guard position. Jackson offers a guy even as a rookie will likely be better on d than Anthony. He also is a guy that has all star and maybe superstar potential. Mudiay is god awful and will likely be out of the league after his rookie contract. Anthony is no longer a superstar, horrifically bad defensively, a guy that relies on holding the ball for half the shot clock before jacking a long 2, and a guy that doesn’t move without… Read more »
Basically it is a trade that upgrades significantly defensively offers around 85% of what Ky did on offense, more if you count Jackson’s likely production off the bench. Finally, with Jackson it gives us some future security since he is a top rookie with all star two way potential. Phoenix gets a dynamic scorer, who by his own belief is ready to challenge for an MVP. Otherwise I say we ride out this season with Irving.
Also why trade for Melo now. Minimally wait for the buyout market to get him for cheap. I don’t want his contract. He isn’t worth it anymore.
I agree with what you’re saying, but you are still too preoccupied with trying to get “matching” talent for Kyrie. If trades only happened when players of equal age/contract length/ salary/PPG/+,-/PER/etc were matched up precisely, no trade would ever happen. This is about satisfying the needs of these players and the basic needs of each organization moving forward. Our primary need shoukd be satisfying LBJ and keep building around him in Cleveland for as long as humanly possible. My proposed trade accomplishe’s that and keeps us competitive to win the East even after parting with our 2nd best player (statistically).
1. I get that, but I think the Jackson and Bledsoe trade makes us better and is more realistic. The only issue with Bledsoe is his injury history. However, if he stays healthy we don’t lose much offense and get far better defensively. We don’t lose half our bench in addition. 2. Who cares about the needs of the players other than LBJ? Kyrie is trying to leave. Why should we care where he wants to go? Also your trade doesn’t even send the guy to NY. How is that caring about the needs of the players? LBJ wants to… Read more »
Hello! You would trade Kyrie for Melo???
No. I would “satisfy” both parties and be happy with the results. It’s not about trading this player for this player and comparing qualities/abilities. At this point it is about satisfying needs and moving on. We’re all rooting for laundry anyways so what does it really matter whose flesh is underneath it? Melo wants out. Kyrie wants out. LeBron likes Melo. Melo likes Lebron. But I would NOT send Kyrie to NY and give him exactly what he wants (the franchise savior/the limelight/great bagels). I would get him out of the East and send him to Denver. Let him play… Read more »
The Melo thing is probably a non stater, anyway. Sounds like he may well be a Rocket in the next couple of days.
If they think they can get Kyrie for Melo, the phone line will go dead in Houston so fast they will think it was a neutron bomb.
No, it would be some multi team deal that involved Melo and somebody else. (if it happened) It sounds like Melo to the Rockets is close to happening, though.
Kyrie is awesome. This really sucks.
They control him for the next two years so the suckitude is contained to some degree. He’s not going to sit out. They can wait, see what materializes. Worst case he pouts all year and next season they can flip him for some draft picks and back to the drawing board. Which sucks but that’s life in the NBA.
I saw the Pluto quote Nate posted below too about the Cavs being able to expect a great haul for Kyrie. I don’t see it. It’s all about context. Paul George and Jimmy Butler were both just moved for “eh” returns, and they play positions of greater demand than Kyrie. I realize that Kyrie is younger and that George has one less guaranteed year on his contract, but there are so many quality point guards out there now that I’d be surprised to see anyone give up multiple future pieces for Ky. If we could swing the 3-way with New… Read more »
Both Chicago and Indiana (specially Indi) were in a different position. Indiana, we all know, was going to lose Paul George either way, and with his “I want to play in LA” comments (plus only 1yr contract), it completely took away any leverage they had. As far as Chicago, my opinion is that they said, “Screw this. We can’t compete against Cle nor Boston.” So they blew it up. For then, I think the biggest part was the pick. Could you get a higher pick for Butler? Maybe. As far as Ky, I see him as a better offensive weapon… Read more »
Is it possible to trade Kyrie for Wiggins and a decent PG or wing from the wolves?
I want to give Kyrie’s move a charitable interpretation and some of the news today suggests its possible. What if he is saying to Dan Gilbert ‘don’t think you can treat Griff bad and take Lebron for granted and then rely on me to rebuild around’? He might be trying to strengthen pressure on Gilbert to go all in, which is something that LeBron wants too. He might have only said that he wanted to be more of the focal point in order to prove to Gilbert that he is serious.
Then give and interview and say those things. He’s said boo. Seems more concerned with convincing us the earth is flat and “self-sustaining farms” than convincing anyone he’s an adult. Seems like a very unserious dude.
Even if he does feel that way, if he really has “learned from Lebron” then I don’t think he does that. Clarity in the NBA is a rare gem. LeBron has had many chances to clear the air on comments/thoughts/rumors before and he never does. By design. He understands that the less said, the more speculated.
I think Kyrie is a good player who would probably grow more playing on a team without a Lebron-like-otherworldly talent.
McMenimin, Windy, Vardon, Lloyd are all close to the pulse of the team, and have all detailed things sufficiently that it seems clear Kyrie legitimately wants out. I don’t think there is a more nuanced story here of defending Griff and/or threatening Gilbert.
Maybe he doesn’t want to elaborate publicly on internal conversation.
You are dreaming. He does not give a crap about any of that. Much more likely that his “stage mom” dad had convinced him he needs to be the star of a team. Unfortunately, he will never sniff the playoffs on a team where he is the star.
dunk on podcast talked of kyrie for groran dragic, justice winslow and Josh Richardson I like it.
You are expecting an awful lot for a guy that half of you thought really sucked. The way you dissed Kyrie – I’d say Bledsoe straight up should be sufficient.
Not many here think he ‘sucks’. He’s a maddening player a lot of the time, though. There are plenty of players I’d rather have. I’ve never been super high on him, but I certainly don’t think he sucks. He is overrated by the ‘sick handles, bruh!’, ‘INSANE handles brah!!’ crowd.
Agree with Mike. I doubt anyone think he sucks. We have the statistical evidence in the playoffs and specifically the finals to prove he is tremendous. He outplayed Curry and likely would have this year if gs didn’t have Durant. I would rather keep him and been on record as saying you don’t trade him. He does have the potential to be an MVP candidate if, if he can get better defensively and distribute like Curry started doing when he became an MVP candidate. Unless they get a superstar like Davis or KAT or a very good point guard and… Read more »
Curry sucks defensively.
He plays ok team d during the regular season and that is not what I meant. I meant Iriving has to get better defensively in the regular season in general and distribute more to have a shot. I mean Harden scored 27 plus ppg and averaged like 12 assists and still couldn’t win the MVP against Westbrook. The bar is high.
I don’t get this argument. You think he’s sublime. Obviously others do too, so let the bidding commence. Dude is under contract for another 708 days. Cavs have all the leverage. I don’t think he “really sucked.” I think he has had brilliant moments but he is clearly all about himself on and off the court, and he could not give a **** in the regular season. Bill Simmons and Isaiah Thomas talked about the “secret” of winning a championship and having a great team. And the “secret” is who is going to sacrifice their game so that the team… Read more »
Fair enough.
. . . but I’ve never heard Kyrie make a single “selfish” statement in all the interviews I’ve ever seen. It was always, “I’ll go to war with these guys any day.” And I don’t think it is “all about himself on the court.” He was the first pick in the draft. It’s always been expected of him to carry the load and get it done.
I’m only calling it from what I’ve read in the last few days. If it’s all BS then he should come out and say it.
Yeah, the Kyrie bashing is over the top. The dude is an elite awesome PG. It sucks he wants out. I think his reasons are really dumb too.
You think Kyrie is being selfish? I could make the argument that Lebron is selfish by holding everyone’s career hostage with his childish antics. This is the same guy who when he came back abandoned his team and went on a 2 week hiatus to Miami. This is the same guy who went to a lakers game wearing purple to feed into the rumors. As great as he is dude is a drama King. I’m glad he brought us a championship and all but that doesn’t mean he can do whatever the hell he wants when he wants. I think… Read more »
Kyrie is elite. The whole point of the NBA right now is that you can’t be elite by yourself. You need at least three guys maybe four. That’s why Kyrie going on his own isn’t just selfish, it’s dumb.
That is true. There are more teams with 3-4 superstars than there have been in any era. 80s had lakers, Celtics, and 76ers. 60s and very early 70s had lakers and Celtics. That’s about it. None of the 90s teams really had three super stars, weak era btw. The 70s knicks maybe. That’s about it.
Actually, that’s EXACTLY what it means. Lebron came back and brought Cleveland a championship. He can do WHATEVER the hell he wants now. Years ago I had bought one of those “Just one before I die” Cavs shirts. Just one was all it said and honestly all I ever wanted. Lebron could wear a dress on the court and start shooting with his feet…he owes me nothing. Kyrie either. 3 straight Finals appearances is something I NEVER thought I’d see as a Cavs fan. If he wants a trade so be it. Let’s keep moving forward…Go Cavs!
Good list except for Wiggins and Teague. Also dump Shump and Felder.
https://twitter.com/ClevTA/status/888869637030629377
Right. Teams lining up to get a chance at Kyrie will have to take Shump too! We might be able to trade Felder to Cleveland State.
If we got Bledsoe and Jackson, that would be enough to keep shump.
Number 2 would be my vote.
Dallas pretty high on Smith. I’d be ok with that, but I’d rather get two players and a rookie over a two players and a draft pick. Bledsoe, Jackson, Dudley is my choice. Though Smith, Barnes, and and pick is interesting if they take shump. I think that’s a lateral move for Dallas though. Sacramento might be the deal though. And if they can find a way to add Carmelo and a guard for kyrie, shump, and fodder, that’s a team that can beat the dubs.
I don’t know much about Smith other than summer league. He looked good, but based off the defensive flashes in summer league and his college career, I like Jackson more. I am not convinced on Fox yet and I think Melo will probably end up in Houston.
Philly would not deal Simmons.
So true, pluto. I got in an argument with a discussion with a Spurs fan who thought San Antonio could move lamarcus+green and maybe a pick to Cavs for Kyrie. Then the Pistons fan below is equally nuts. Cavs should get a very good point guard, wing, and young player for Kyrie and dump Shump/felder. Can get better and deeper and younger. This is a golden opportunity.
https://twitter.com/oldseaminer/status/888930445672534017
Pluto wants Wiggins if they traded with Wolves, and I would not want any part of that. Wiggins is about to be paid a crapload of money, too.
Trading with wolves is dumb. Let Kyrie’s ego be someone else’s problem
What kind of trade are you looking for? We’re not getting Anthony Davis or Cousins, or CJ McCollum or devin booker or Giannis. We’re not gonna get exact value for Kyrie. A good trade would be Reggie Jackson, Tobias Harris, and maybe Tyson Chandler if the Suns get involved cause I think the bucks would like to get Bledsoe. But I think we automatically get better defensively in a deal like that. Our defense sucked last year and Kyrie was a huge reason for that. I would be looking a defensive minded PG to replace him. Just my opinion tho.
Hopefully the Cavs will sit tight, and about 15 teams can start a bidding war for Kyrie. And don’t forget to toss in lots of picks!
MikeO is right, Wiggins is about to get paid more than he is worth.
I will now officially declare that trading Wiggins for Love was a GOOD IDEA! (Kindly disregard any erroneous statements I might have made on this issue in the past! Thanks.)
Yeah. I was 100% wrong on Wiggins vs Love. Love was so worth everything.
I wouldn’t trade for Wiggins right now, but I think he will become an elite two way player with another year under Thibs and with Butler forcing him into line.
Take away Irving and add nothing and we are still easily going to the Finals.
Ahhhh no. Who’s gonna make up the 22+ ppg?
10 for green, 5 more for love, and ten more at least for whoever replaces him. Not sweating it too much.
Plus the defense will be better.
Good. I was counting on Cols to retain some optimism!
Who knows, this might be for the better. Let’s hope Koby is a genius.
Kyrie Irving is the most underrated player in the entire league. You put him on a team with a good defensive big man and a solid wing defender, and Kyrie will lead the league in scoring and it won’t even be close. A lot of y’all worship Lebron so much you can’t even see clearly. For the people saying, if Lebron leaves then Kyrie can take over you’re wrong. This team is only built for, by, and around LBJ. That’s why when he sits the team sucks. I hate the fact that the Cavs make short term decisions to win… Read more »
I açtually feel sorry for Kyrie because he will be Stephon Marbury 2.0. and 21st century Norm Nixon.
Never. Kyrie is 10x the player Stephon Marburg ever was. That’s just straight up disrespectful.
If you think a Pistons team without Drummond and adding Kyrie will beat LBJ and Drummond you are out of your mind. And yeah don’t get your hopes up, Detroit would never get Irving without gutting their core including Drummond. He’ll even if you added Irving to Detroit without losing anyone, they still wouldn’t make it to the finals.
Guess I’m out of my mind then. I think they can get Kyrie without giving up Drummond. Cavs get Reggie Jackson, Luke Kennard, Tobias Harris or Stanley Johnson for Kyrie. And Stan Van Gundy would coach circles around Ty Lue. A team with Kyrie, Avery Bradley, and Andre Drummond is very formidable. Especially in the East. I could see them being a top 5 seed. As far as the finals, not this year, but definitely in the years to come.
I am not the Altman, but if I was Altman I would resign before I took that deal. Wishful thinking on your part.
Altman might not, but Danny Gilbert might.
Well if Gilbert is running the show and does that he is an idiot. He doesn’t own any stake in the pistons. He is a Detroit guy, but yeah a businessman first. Shooting your own club in the foot to help a club you have no investment in would be moronic.
Again there are a lot more clubs that would probably like Irving for a minimum of two years that would offer far more to Gilbert and Altman than that nonsense. It won’t happen but you can always dream of what could be in a fantasy world.
True. The goal would be to get young players in return on they’re rookie contracts. Especially with the LBJ uncertainty. I think Detroit can do that but I agree other teams can offer better deals. Maybe Sacramento or Phoenix. I just think the Detroit/ Dan Gilbert aspect is interesting.
Yep Kyrie gets buckets – thats why we’re not trading him for Pistons trash. Not turning a dollar in to 4 quarters
Reggie Jackson, Tobias Harris, and Luke Kennard (who I think is a gonna be a nice player) plus draft picks is not trash.
Call it what you like, if the Cavs trade Irving, they are getting a better offer than that.
That makes you better defensively and you don’t lose much offense if Ty Lue can come up with a fluid offense. Plus Jeff green and Cedi Osman you literally switch every screen against GS which is what you need.
The Cavs had a great offense last year.
Woj is a moron: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20125888/kyrie-irving-trade-request-shows-learned-lebron
Indeed. I loathe him.
Makes absolutely no sense.
Confirmed
Let the reader decide (from the article): As much as anything, James has taught everyone — including Irving — that the best players on the planet can influence, shape and even control their fates and futures. James is responsible for the empowerment of the modern basketball superstar, which speaks to an important lesson that’s resonating with Irving himself: Dictate terms before they’re dictated to you. Irving has watched the way James has leveraged the Cavaliers for commissions on the contracts OF HIS AGENCY’s CLIENTS, watched the way James’ signing of short-term player contracts has bent the will of an organization.… Read more »
I guess. Doesn’t mean I have to like him or that it’s good for he sport or the game in the long term.
It’s a millenial’s world.
You don’t have to like it, but it is what it is.
Hey, we still got Lebron.
And actually, I don’t think anybody will be willing to pay the asking price for Kyrie . . . unless LBJ has a friend on another team . . .
Eh. The bri went down by 4% last year and no one worried. If it happens again it’s a trend.
In registering his preference to Cleveland Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert for a trade, league sources said, Irving divulged that he’s become increasingly uneasy about a future that includes a roster constructed to complement LeBron James — a roster that could well be devoid of James come free agency in 2018. With James refusing to commit to Cleveland beyond the coming season, with the growing verdict that James is intrigued with pursuing a Los Angeles Lakers exit plan, Irving has become proactive in controlling his own career arc. The Cavaliers are constructed to play a slow, half-court game around James, personnel… Read more »
Are you copping from Cols? Who has a growing verdict about the Lakers? Nobody that knows anything. Now that LeBron sees what a pain in the butt Deadrick Irving is, you think he wants to work with LaVar Ball, who is 100 times worse? What “slow, half court game around James” are you talking about? James is all about fast attack. Kyrie moves at about 1/4 the speed of LeBron. ” up-tempo style with Irving as the centerpiece”? You have got to be kidding. Did you watch any games? Kyrie loves to kill the clock noodling around. It is true… Read more »
I really can’t dignify your comments with a reply.
Signing off . . .
Tell us then, U-Dog, about those wonderful 3 years when Kyrie was the main man. How about explaining to us how Kyrie got in a locker room brouhaha with Dion Waiters and got a newly rehired Mike Brown fired after just one season despite a guaranteed 4 (5?) year contract. Tell us how Kyrie led the Cavs to 21, 24 and 33 wins despite two top overall picks and multiple lottery picks.
1) Kyrie was 19, 20, and 21 years old on a team that sucked and was probably the least experienced in the NBA.
2) You’re defending Mike Brown? The seven games with the Lakers Mike Brown?
3) Dion Waiters was on his own planet. I’d blame Kyrie if he NEVER got in a brouhaha with the guy.
1) Sure Kyrie was young then, but to lead the Cavs to the the worst 3- year total wins despite playing in the weak east while getting lots of lottery picks and serviceable veterans? And don’t forget the record for longest losing losing streak under his leadership. 2. )Mike Brown actually lasted 1 season and five games with the Lakers. You may also recall a fellow name Lebron who took Brown and the Cavs to the 2007 at age 22 with rookie Boobie Gibson as arguably his best teammate. 3) Kyrie feuded with Waiters, feuded with Brown and wanted out… Read more »
Adrian wojnarowski is the master speculator who sells conjectures better than anybody. To my best recall, he has never personally interviewed Lebron and yet nobody has written more editorials about Lebron than this hate mongerer. He declared before that Lebron did not go to Chicago in 2010 because Derrick Rose didn’t woo him and he likes to be wooed. Yet in another article/editorial he said that Lebron’s Miami stint was forged during the 2008 Olympics. Woj has an axe to grind against Lebron’s boys because they never gave him access to him so he gives this “league sources says” BS… Read more »
That is because LeBron is by far the best player in the league. Not many players can expect to be able to do what he does.
Not many can . . . but at age 25, Kyrie decided he can be “proactive” with his career.
“With the growing verdict that James is intrigued with pursuing a Los Angeles Lakers exit plan (with Paul George), Irving has become proactive in controlling his own career arc.”
Of course, there’s more going on than what anybody knows.
https://twitter.com/oldseaminer/status/888828424076353536
Is the e list composed only of people that mooch off of and ride the coat tails of their kids talent/fame?
At least by all accounts, Dedrick Irving was a pretty good baller. Lavar just has the genes, Richard Williams’ stardad obsessiveness, and a big mouth.
I understand that the ultimate goal is to win a championship – but the world has gone the way of, “if you don’t win a championship – you’re nothing.” Not for me . I watch basketball to be entertained. I’ve never seen a player do the things that Kyrie does. He’s an artist that needs to fully express himself. Can’t be done on a Lebron led team. Kyrie has won the championship that validates his career. He hit the series winning shot. He’s still only 25 and it’s his time. Kevin Love has also won the championship that validates his… Read more »
1. Speak for yourself: Kyrie “The Artist” can put up beautiful shots for a bottom feeder team anywhere. He would be as nobody if he hadn’t played with LeBron.
2. If you think Love would rather play with KI than LeBron, you are flat out crazy.
I was speaking for myself.
Without LBJ he still would be a player that made the prettiest and biggest clutch shots in the NBA over the last three years. And the biggest shot in Cleveland Cavalier history. Offense wins championships. He’s probably the best player in the NBA at scoring when you need a basket. Keep Liggins and let him play defense.
What????
“How is their leverage low? He’s under contract for two years and he is one of the best players in the league at the leagues most important position.”
He’s one of the best at the league’s most important position???? !!!! Nate said that?
I guess I did. I still don’t like him but I doubt many people would argue with that assessment of Fredo Irving.
Fredo Irving now? Sheesh I caught hell for Benedict Varejao and he actively joined our fiercest rivals!
After they cut him, and he was one of our finals mvps.
Well without LeBron he wouldn’t have made “The Shot” since the Cavs would had more than likely been out of the playoffs in the first round, if they even made it in with him and Wiggins.
But he DID make “The Shot.”
I like this post. Agree with a lot of it; guess thats why Im ok with seeing something new in CLE
I’m waiting for the CAVS fans to start saying bring Delly back! Any way, Kyrie is a very good player, did I mention very good, if he wants to leave, that’s his right! I JUST WISH HE HAD LEFT BEFORE PAUL GEORGE, JIMMY BUTLER, AND WHO KNOWS WHO ELSE WE COULD HAVE TRADED FOR!
Actually, it isn’t. He is under contract for 2 more years.
Bring Delly back! Heck yeah!
A Boogie deal is intruiging. I don’t think you beat GSW playing their way. Green can’t guard Boogie, Love, & James. There is an issue there down low every time. Kick out to shooters.
Why would they won’t to? They’d just out race them and score three points for every one of their twos.
The reason Im on the Boogie train is threefold. 1 – we cannot trade a dollar for 4 quarters here. We need a legit superstar (or someone with superstar potential). Trading kyrie for smaller pieces just makes us worse. 2- boogie for kyrie seems like a win win for both teams and thus an actual achievable trade. Sure Id rather have giannis or whatever but it aint happening for like the 5th best point guard in the league. 3- i think it would be fun to watch a new look cavs with boogie. I dont just want an inferior kyrie… Read more »
I mean, if he could keep his temper in check and we add Rose… That may work.
If we can get a good Kyrie trade + a Melo/Wade buyout we are in business.