A Few Scattered Thoughts
2012-05-24So, under normal circumstances, I would have sat down this morning and tried to spend 1,200 words comparing Alonzo Gee to an antelope or whatever, but I’ve got a few thoughts kicking around my head that I don’t think I can channel into a coherent essay, but wanted to talk about anyway. Bullet points: engage!
–I think it was David Thorpe who recently wrote about team-building through the draft, and how drafting certain types of prospects in the same draft or consecutive drafts has a significant impact on their development and, by extension, the direction in which a team grows. Considering that this Cavs team is likely going to have to be built through the draft (last year’s, this year’s, and the next), I think this draft is the one in which fit becomes important. Not “fit” in the sense that the Cavs shouldn’t draft Anthony Davis if they win the lottery because they already have a lanky, athletic forward, but “fit” like not drafting too many projects or ball-dominant players or guys who can’t shoot. For example, I like Andre Drummond. He scares the hell out of me with his intermittent passivity, but I think, in the right situation, he could sort himself out and become one of the best centers in the league. Let’s suppose I’m right—that if there are six realities that lie in front of Andre Drummond, in one of them he is a seven-time All-Star—and that Chris Grant agrees with me. The Cavs have the fifth pick, and they’re deciding between Drummond, Harrison Barnes, Perry Jones, and trading down. What should they do? I think the answer revolves around a number of questions.
–Are you okay with having a future front line (TT and Drummond) that can’t shoot free throws? We’ve seen the Clippers have this problem with DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffin. When your starting forward and center pair can’t shoot a respectable percentage from the line, you’re leaving points on the table every game. On top of that, you can’t run your offense through the post late in games. Everything has to be isos, pick-and-rolls, and running shooters off picks. Because the Clippers have the best point guard in the world in Chris Paul, they often get away with this. Are the Cavs comfortable running literally every play through Kyrie Irving late in games? Maybe they are.
–This sort of goes hand-in-hand with the previous question: is a TT-Drummond front line going to be sub-par offensively and is that an issue? I think OKC is a good team to look at to answer this question. They start two offensively-deficient big men in Serge Ibaka and Kendrick Perkins. One is a hyper-athletic shot-blocker, and the other is… well, whatever your opinion of Kendrick Perkins is. This works fine for the most part. Perkins sets screens, guards the other team’s center capably, and grabs rebounds while Ibaka catches alley-oops and protects the rim. It doesn’t much matter (except when it does, late in games, but I’ll get to that in a minute) that neither can score because OKC has two of the best perimeter scorers in the league in Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant. Plus James Harden is eminently capable of going off for 25 and six. I don’t think, unless the Cavs are incredibly lucky in future drafts or free agency, that they will have three perimeter scorers on the level of KD, Russ, and The Beard. So where do those points come from? Is Irving going to have to become Derrick Rose and score 30 a night in order to carry his team offensively? We also occasionally, in crunch time, see the problems OKC experiences as a result of having two non-scoring big men. Because neither Ibaka nor Perk is particularly apt at making a 15-footer, the paint becomes clogged with defenders, and OKC has to either live or die by long jumpers or pray Westbrook can pull off one of those impossible Westbrook drives where he knifes through three defenders and lays it in. It’s not the most efficient way to get clutch baskets.
–Is Tristan Thompson a project? So, we’ve talked about this a bit. You can’t write a sentence about TT without using the words “raw” and “athletic.” But where is his ceiling, exactly? I think, defensively, he has the potential to be similar to Serge Ibaka. But offensively, it’s hard to know where his game is headed and what the Cavs expect from him. Do they think he will learn to shoot? Do they expect him to be the third-leading scorer on a playoff team? His status as a project depends on what you expect him to be. If he’s supposed to be a good offensive player, then he needs a lot of work. If he’s supposed to grab rebounds, block shots, and score in the same ways Andy Varejao does, then he’s closer to his objective. I mention this because Drummond is definitely a project. He needs to be coached in terms of asserting himself, playing hard on every possession, etc. I don’t think there’s a giant disparity in talent between Anthony Davis and Drummond, but the difference is Davis works his ass off, and Drummond seems like a weird, moody giant. My point is the Cavs don’t want two projects. You can overhaul one raw talent’s game, but two? That’s a challenge the coaching staff likely can’t handle.
–How do you feel about PJ3 and Barnes? This is not a question I care to answer. Go bother Kevin about this. But it’s something that needs to be considered. PJ3 actually has a lot of the same problems as Drummond re: work ethic, disappearing from games, etc., and Barnes is a kind of terrifyingly limited player.
Anyway, I’m just throwing this out there as something to chew on. Feel free to fight about this in the comment section.
My rank is
davis,beal,mkg,pj3,drummond,barnes
@24 i would love to get Qunincy miller
Kevin, Shouldn’t the Cavs get PJ3 if they fall just because his talent and the fact he can play the 3 and the 4 that lets use start him at the 3 were he would like to play and he will have a huge advatage over must 3’s just by height by the way and then if we need play him at the 4 at the end so they can’t just foul TT plus the rebounds we would get from PJ3,TT, and Andy all on the floor it would seem its a win for the cavs and a win for… Read more »
Barton and O’Quinn might also be good second round options for the Cavs. Not being able to remember Quincy Miller’s first name makes me wonder if there either is a problem with Lucas’ evaluation or Quincy’s true value.
Here’s a vid of John Lucas talking about players at his draft workouts and the first guy he mentions as being impressed by is my man-crush, John Henson! Haha! What I did find interesting is that Luc mentioned he can hit the shot like a stretch 4 and that is what I was thinking when I mentioned way back when they he coud be the next Rasheed. We’ll see, I guess…btw, I REALLY expect the meme to start changing as far as the depth and quality of this draft. I sense it swinging back towards “this is a really good… Read more »
I totally agree with Kevin that the Cavs need to take BPA, and that if that player is a PF or PF/C type, there will be enough minutes for all three of the Cavs bigs. A rotation of a stud rookie big plus TT and Varejao for about 32 minutes each per game is ideal. If they kept selecting another developmental big in round 2 over the next few drafts to replace Andy in 3-4 years that could be a great plan. Having two second rounders almost every season going forward makes that a viable plan. Marc Gasol, Deandre Jordan,… Read more »
Kevin, Legit 7 Footers with range that don’t suck at all other aspects of basketball are fairly hard to come by, and the thought process is that we should do well enough in this draft to not be seeing a whole lot of top 10 picks in the near future. Also why does everyone exclude Andy from our future? He was the best player on our team last year while healthy and is only 29 and the rebuild is going faster than planned. He’ll still be a good player in 4 years, we don’t have the talent level to be… Read more »
Matt, I’m talking long range plan – maybe 5 years down the road. At that time, TRob and TT would both be 26 and really be towards the early part of their prime. I wasn’t trying to exclude Andy from the near future or indicate that landing a 7-footer with range was easy. The 7-footer could come through a draft pick or free agency in the next four – five years. I was more indicating that with a real long-view, it’s reasonable to think you can build a team with Thompson and Robinson. If not, and they’re both really good…trade… Read more »
I think tristan thompson has a very high ceiling and is going to be great in this league one day.
@pete… thanks! ;)
But if the Knicks are worried about this, it wouldn’t hurt to drive up the bidding a little? And it’s about the only way now to keep Nash from the Heat (supposedly the only team for which Steve will play for below-market salary).
So, at the risk of extending the crazy :0 ……………………
Could Nash & Irving play together?
The best part about our draft is that we know our needs and we have versatility in our frontcourt. Anderson can play the 4 or 5, which let’s us work around Thompson and Drummond if we end up at 5 or 6. For the next 3 years at least, Andy can play at a high enough level to help us develop young talent. My ranks are: Davis, MKG, Beal, Drummond, PJones, T Rob. I don’t quite know where to rank T Rob exactly because he plays the exact same position as Tristan. Could we draft T Rob…and start him and… Read more »
Keith, My stance on Robinson is if the Cavs like him at pick 4 – 6, they should draft him…and it shouldn’t mean anything negative against Thompson. Not looking specifically at next year, but if the Cavs targeted a legit 7-footer with some shooting range in the next several years; why can’t a “TT, TRob, legit 7-footer with a jump shot” be a reasonable big man rotation? Simple math means they all play 32 minutes and the team play small & fast for 16 minutes a game. Tristan’s long and athletic and has played a little center. Robinson’s a great… Read more »
sorry, meant to say we’ll be lucky to land one starter/6th-man-on-a-contending-team level player
I agree james that the picks 24-32 will get more focus, because there is less obvious of choices, more variables, and you can good players there but more often then not you don’t. We’ll do well to land contender level starter/6th man with those picks. While yes, two or all 3 of them will probably get minutes next year because we are so thin, that doesn’t mean that is what the draft will be remembered for or how it will have lasting impact on our franchise. The guy we pick in the top 6 will be top dollar, and will… Read more »
Kevin, What if, just what if, in the Cavs absolute best judgement and evaluation they deem Drummond to be be the real deal. I understand your agony very well. At this juncture, there is nothing other than “potential” to hang your hat on. The numbers certainly don’t justify any support for Drummond, not to mention his apparent lack of motivation. But then I ask, what if Grant and his team get to see this guy up close and personal and come to the conclusion that he could really turn into something dominant. It does cause one to pause. I, for… Read more »
james, As some context, last year I was in the chorus of fans that wanted Valanciunas over Tristan. While I thought Tristan was good (i probably rated him 10th or something), I thought Jonas was the likely future all-star. Now with TT in tow, and wanting the team to be successful, clearly I think patience is the best perspective. With that as intro, if the Cavs decide they like Drummond at 4, 5 or 6; I’ll be espousing patience from the start, regardless of if I like Robinson, PJ3 or whoever else better than him. Drummond is a rare athletic… Read more »
Matt, I have to disagree with you regarding the importance of the 24, 33, and 34th picks of the Cavs. There is a reason that Grant has worked so hard to accumulate these picks. If you look at the Cavs projected roster going into next year, the analysis tells you that there are 6 to 8 obvious holes. The fact that the Cavs can fill half these holes through the draft should not be underestimated. Imagine their situation if all they had was the number 3 pick, for example. I can only imagine, as well. how giddy an organization like… Read more »
If the Cavs are at 4 or 5 and the 3 they really want (assuming that is Davis, Beal, and MKG) are gone, then I would seriously consider trading down if someone wants to move up. Problem is, I don’t think anyone is going to be excited about moving up in this draft, beyond maybe the top 3 spots. I don’t get excited about any of the guys left in the 4-6 range and feel you’d be just as well off grabbing more players in this draft or a future one than placing your bets on guys who were physically… Read more »
@DCG Yup!!! I am always amazed how often people talk about the less “talented” player being the guy who doesn’t jump as well. Seems to me that it is also a “talent” to be able to be ridiculously accurate on a shot. Technical development certainly helps a jumpshot (ie, Jason Kidd) but rebounding position, ball skills and shooting ability is also to some degree innate. I wouldn’t be opposed to Sullinger for these reasons. We have seen time and time again that rebounding translates to the pros. We need a defensive rebounder and also someone who can make a 17… Read more »
Which qualities are most malleable? This is the question that always comes up for me during draft lottery season. The conventional assumption is that jumpy, lanky guys potentially become great, while skilled players have a lower ceiling. This is intuitive, but kind of misguided, I think. After all, skilled players may just as easily become really really skilled (think: Kevin Love). To a large extent, eye-hand coordination, which underlies the ability to consistently make 3-point shots, may be just as biologically-based as jumpiness. That may be why it’s so uncommon for 50% foul shooters in college to become 85% foul… Read more »
Considering that Byron Scott has very limited patience with players he feels aren’t playing hard, I doubt the Cavs will draft Drummond. Look how quick he was to bench Semih Erden. Also, I don’t think Barnes is as limited as people are saying. NC was a loaded team last season. They really didn’t need Barnes to post up or drive the lane. I think his job was mainly to shoot from outside. Of course, this is just my opinion. I’m no expert, just an arm-chair point guard…lol. Is anyone else a little concerned about drafting MKG? Not that I think… Read more »
Call me crazy, but if we miss out on Davis, MKG, and Beal, I think I’m leaning more for Sullinger. I know people aren’t high on him, but he really should be a better version of paul millsap. He’s a tad bigger, has better range, anchored one of the better defenses in the NCAA as the only true big on the court, and his college stats are slightly better in points per minute, slightly worse in rebounds and shooting percentage (cause he took jump shots and 3’s) and is significantly better at FTs, all of this against Big 10 competition… Read more »
After reading Colin’s thoughts does it scare anyone else that if we end up with Drummond what the Cavs ceiling will be? I mean doesn’t everyone already kind of compare Kyrie to Chris Paul, so if we end up with two athletic yet non-threatening from outside 10 feet big men isn’t the Cavs ceiling the same as the Clippers ceiling? You know always very good, but never great, maybe the fourth best team in the NBA, but never the best kind of thing? I think that should push us away from Drummond more than anything and maybe towards Barnes if… Read more »
James, I’m pretty sure the class will still be defined by the first, likely top 5, pick. If we get MKG or Davis and they turn us into a contender, or if we draft Drummond and he ends up being the bust he’s destined to be, we’ll be remember for that, not whether or not we got a 20 minute player in the early second round. Sure, it would be a nice bonus, but top 10 picks define the league, and therefore the draft for any team that has one of those picks.
This is where Grant and his team of player evaluators earn their stripes. Simply put, take the best player available, regardless of position, other than point guard. This draft is not going to be defined by who the Cavs take first, but how effective the Cavs are in converting their other trade picks/assests into players that “fit” the long-terms need of the team. The Cavs are, in many ways, like the Browns going into this draft. Roughly 25% of the roster is open to new draft picks. If one believes in the absolute imperative of building a 9 to 12… Read more »
I’d rank those 3 Jones/Barnes/Drummond and if that’s our worst case scenario I’d be happy with it. Two months ago we were looking at the 8th best lottery odds. I think Jones could be a dynamic 3 if he’s paired with an elite PG who could keep him engaged. Barnes has the lowest ceiling of the 3 players but he has the highest floor also. Drummond is raw, but he has elite potential. UCONN was a mess all around and they rarely ran plays for him.
I agree with D. Everything I’ve heard about PJ3 is that he’s a great kid, works hard, loves the game, but is just a little too passive. With Kyrie, he wouldn’t need to be as aggressive, not to mention the fact that Scott and Kyrie will be riding him to take over at times. I am biased, as I love his talent and potential, but I would definitely be okay with him, possibly even at 4.
Sorry that should read ” I’m actually encouraged that in a year when another wing scorer came in and it took 3/4 of the season for Drew to play their best pg that PJ3 DIDN’T regress sharply.
I really worry about the “work ethic” questions about PJ3. Reading bout him in that NYT article and realizing that it takes more than some preternatural gift to have the handle and knowledge of passing angles that he has sours me on that narrative. I think it may be more likely that he went to a school that was close to home and comfortable in Baylor. As we’ve seen with every player on that team in the Scott Drew era, they don’t develop players at Baylor and they don’t use their personnel properly. They had a 9 deep athletic team… Read more »
It’s still a crazy idea. That’s crazy. You’re crazy. (sorry for the triple post)
Pardon me, I misread the last part there regarding keeping Nash from the Heat. Sorry.
Really? Your idea involves attempting to screw over the KNICKS of all teams by overpaying an overrated player?
Like some of you, I’m particularly interested in overseas players – does it seem to you that the pendulum has swung too far away from Euros? – Satoransky is a highly regarded 2, etc. Stashing even a couple of players might be desirable – being them over once we are rolling? p.s. Just had a chat with a HUGE (and obnoxious) Knicks fan – they are fearing that somebody will outbid them for Jeremy Lin. #1 fear is a backloaded contract that puts them over the limit in 2 years. #2 fear is someone with a ton of cap room… Read more »
I’ve read a few things lately from pre-draft workouts that have got me thinking. I didn’t know MKG considers Kyrie his best friend and is currently working out in beachwood! After that and chad Ford’s tweets from Santa barbara I have a new possible draft scenario. 3. MKG 24. John Jenkins (apparently added muscle and drains threes like no one else in this draft.) 33. Festus Ezeli (also has shown improvement and looks explosive in workouts) 34. Drew Gordon (basically Thomas Robinson from a lesser school. Will be working out for cavs.) Thoughts? I like the idea of getting a… Read more »
Ryan Young, Yeah, Kyrie and MKG were high school teammates. I like your draft scenario. Regarding Drummond, Jones and Barnes if the Cavs pick 5th or 6th; I’m closest to having talked myself into PJ3. A few updated thoughts on each: ____________________________________________________________________________________ In the last ten years, the really strong top 5’s have been Lebron, Carmelo, Wade, Bosh…and Milicic Rose, Westbrook, Love, Mayo…and Beasley Griffin, Harden, Rubio, Evans…and Thabeet Once upon a time some fanbase was excited to pick Kwame Brown over Tyson Chandler and Pau Gasol. The top 5 is never bust proof. There is frequently a big man… Read more »