Regarding Andre Iguodala
2010-02-04The Dream:
There are young players, there are productive players, and there are available players. At the trade deadline, a team generally gets to choose two out of three. Andre Iguodala, however, can check all three boxes. He’s 26 years old. He’s had three seasons with a PER of 18 or better in the last four years. And evidently, the 76ers are currently open to moving him.
Danny Ferry has done an absolutely masterful job of surrounding LeBron James with high-quality role players during his tenure as GM. That being said, thanks to LeBron getting too good too fast, Luke Jackson’s back, DaJuan Wagner’s intestines, Ricky Davis’ head, Larry Hughes’ everything, and the sins of Jim Paxson, LeBron’s never gotten a young potential superstar to grow with. (Mo Williams is great for what he is, but he’s no superstar.) This might be the Cavs’ chance to get LeBron a true running mate.
There’s also something else. Iguodala’s a lock-down perimeter defender, both on the ball and providing weak-side help. He’s got off-the-charts athleticism and a Gumby wingspan. He’s not a natural shooter, but he can make shots when they’re open. He’s a good decision-maker and can make plays. This is borderline heresy, but it’s hard not to see more than a little bit of Scottie Pippen in Iguodala. Here are the career numbers:
S. Pippen: 16.1 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 5.2 APG, 2.0 SPG, 0.8 BPG
Iguodala: 15.8 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.5 APG, 1.8 SPG, 0.5 BPG
Pippen wins across the board, but Iggy’s close in every category. Let’s go advanced:
S. Pippen: 53.6 TS%, 10.6 REB%, 23.1 AST%, 15.6 TO%, 22.5 USG
Iguodala : 55.9 TS%, 8.9 REB%, 19.3 AST%, 14.9 TO%, 19.7 USG
Still pretty darn close. (I will note that Pippen’s later years hurt his career TS%; with the Bulls, Pippen was always around the 55% mark.)
I’ve been opposed to comparing a LeBron sidekick to Scottie Pippen for a very long time. So when I say that Andre Iguodala could be the Cavs’ version of Scottie Pippen, realize that I do not make that comparison lightly. There are some issues with the analogy. I think Pippen was a much better decision-maker than Iguodala is, and a much more versatile offensive player in the half-court. The fit’s not perfect, either. As much as LeBron gets compared to Michael Jordan, his game honestly resembles a superpowered version of Scottie Pippen’s more than it resembles Jordan’s. (Pippen made a huge positive impact in every area of the game. LeBron is capable of dominating in every area of the game.)
The next Scottie Pippen, in search of a Jordan. Is that possibility enticing enough to make the risk worth it? Let’s break it down.
The Optimistic View:
First of all, Iguodala’s impact on the defensive end would be immediate. By the numbers, Iguodala may have been the best perimeter defender in basketball last season. What’s more, the numbers seem to make sense. Iguodala is a freak athlete with a 6-11 wingspan, and has been regarded as a nightmare defender ever since he came into the league. He’s also active on the weak side, as his block and steal numbers demonstrate.
The Cavs would become a scary defensive team if they added Iguodala. Anthony Parker is a very nice defender, but he’s no Iguodala on that end. With Iguodala, LeBron could roam free on the defensive end for the first 35 minutes of the game. Okay, he already does that. What the addition of Iguodala would mean is that the other team’s best scorer won’t get any easy baskets of his own while LeBron conserves energy and creates weak-side havoc for the majority of the game. Down the stretch, LeBron could take on the other team’s best scorer as Iguodala patrols the passing lanes and provides help. Iguodala and LeBron could be the best perimeter defensive tandem since Pippen and Jordan themselves. I don’t know about you, but I like the sound of that.
Add Delonte West coming off the bench, and you’re talking about 48 minutes of misery for opposing perimeter players. A few commenters have brought this up: who scores on a West/Iguodala/James/Varejao/Shaq lineup? It’s a good bet that Mike Brown’s had a few daydreams about a defense that includes Iguodala.
Offensively, Iguodala would be the best slasher LeBron James has ever played with. Iguodala loves to dunk the ball, and shot better than 70% at the rim in each of the last two seasons. This season, he’s gotten less easy opportunities at the rim, and has struggled to finish in traffic. Some of this may be due to the Sixers switching Andre Miller for Allen Iverson; only 50.4% of Iguodala’s shots at the rim have been assisted this season, compared to 57.1% last year. Playing with LeBron James, Iguodala could be an absolute force going at the rim on weak-side cuts and curls, and he also has the playmaking ability to find LeBron if the defense tries to collapse on his drives.
Iguodala is also very good in transition. The 76ers are an excellent fast-break team, and Iguodala is a big reason why. Iguodala runs the floor like a deer, and is more than capable of making the pass in the open court or finishing the break with emphasis. If the Cavs put Iguodala next to LeBron James, they could do some amazing things on the break.
Iguodala is also comfortable at the three, and has enough length to make more small-ball lineups very viable. At 26, Iguodala is already capable of giving the Cavs a new dimension on both sides of the floor.
The Skepticism:
Iguodala’s contract isn’t pretty. 12 million a year, and he’s under contract for five seasons. There’s no reset button on this trade if it happens.
There’s also the issue of scoring efficiency. Iguodala’s never had a mind-blowing TS%, and this year it’s at a career-low 52.3%. That’s well below league-average efficiency. Currently, Iguodala is a poor scorer from everywhere except the rim. He shoots 35.7% from inside of 10 feet, 25.5% from 10-15 feet, 37.0% from 15-23 feet, and 32% on threes. In fact, Â Iguodala is shooting a miserable 44.4% on layups this season. Basically, Iguodala is an inefficient offensive player when he takes any shot other than a dunk. That’s not good.
The good news is that Iguodala’s being forced to take too many tough shots in Philadelphia, which he hopefully wouldn’t have to take in Cleveland. He’s taking 56% of his jumpers off the dribble, which is an absurdly high percentage for a player who isn’t a natural shooter. He appears to have a solid stroke when he sets his feet, so he might have much more success from the outside with LeBron and co. setting him up with open looks.
If Iguodala starts, there might not be enough shooting for the Cavs. A lineup of Williams/Iguodala/James/Varejao/Shaq only features one true three-point threat, and four players who aren’t comfortable at all from midrange. The Cavs are only now figuring out how to keep their spacing intact when Shaq is on the floor. Would there be enough room in the paint if another slasher was added?
There’s also the issue of what the Cavs would have to give up. If it’s just Z with a buyout and JJ, that’s one thing. However, the word is that the 76ers are looking to use Iguodala to offload Dalembert’s contract. A commenter made that work with the Cavs giving up Z, Hickson, Boobie, and Parker. That’s a lot to give up. Say what you will about all of those guys, but you’re talking about shipping out four rotation players from the league’s best team, including two starters. And as much as Z has struggled with his shot, the team still plays very well with him on the floor, and he’s the only true 4 or 5 on the team able to stretch the floor.
Making Iguodala fit could require a lot more run-and-gun or a lot more small-ball. I’m not sure if that’s a philosophical shift that Mike Brown is willing to make, and I’m not even sure it’s one he should make.
Final Verdict:
Just like I was about the Amare trade, I’m extremely torn about this deal. On the one hand, only an idiot passes on an opportunity to add a great talent entering his prime, especially one who resembles Scottie Pippen. On the other hand, only an idiot makes a trade that could seriously alter the chemistry of a red-hot team with the league’s best record.
I don’t see the 76ers giving Iguodala up for Hickson and cap relief, especially when they have Speights and Thaddeus Young. I also don’t see the Cavs giving up four rotations and taking on Dalembert’s bad contract just to get Iguodala, especially without a buyout agreement for Z. This is one of those trades that usually only happens if both teams really want it to, and I don’t think either team wants the trade that badly right now. If the interest from the 76ers is real, I would not have to make the decision that Danny Ferry is faced with right now.
i’m somewhat surprised that none of you have mentioned this stat (esp. you, john, as you’re a big stat guy) that the cavs are 20-0 when JJ scores 7 or more points. TWENTY AND OH!!!!! that’s a big enough sample size, so don’t gimme any crap about that. JJ is more important to this team than any of maybe realized. how hard is for JJ to get 3 lay-ups/dunks and hit a FT every game playing with LBJ and shaq? not too hard, i think we’d all agree. and when that does indeed happen the cavs DO NOT LOSE. not… Read more »
Pau Gasol took the Lakers to another level he was the perfect fit as a big man in the traingle offense.
If Igoudala was this perfect for the Cavs, I’d guess Ferry and Brown would have him here today.
Trading a big for a small in the NBA seldom happens. And it seldom happens because it seldom works out well for the team trading the big.
I watch a lot of Sixers games, so I’ve actually seen quite a bit of Iguodala both this season and last. In my opinion, the Cavs would be gaining in every area except 3-point shooting. AP’s main offensive value is his ability to knock down the open 3, so this really could be an issue in the offense. However, I do think Iguodala has suffered from having to take too many jumpers off the dribble, and is a capable-enough 3-pointer shooter to keep opposing defenses honest. When you look at what he brings to to table in his ability to… Read more »
I don’t think some understand how good Igoudala is. His numbers on offense are down this year but if you look at the previous three years you see one of the better slashers in the league. He is as good a play-making and defending wing as just about anybody not named Lebron or Kobe. He averages close to six assist a game on a pretty offensively challenged team. His defense is extremely under-rated. If the Cavs can get him without having to take back Samuel Dalembert they should do it without thinking twice. Him and Lebron you could win 60+… Read more »
Great analysis here John. Stealing Andre from the Sixers could turn out to be as big for LeBron as the Pau Gasol trade was for Kobe. Literally within five seconds after that grand theft, Kobe’s fortunes were reversed and he became not only the greatest Laker of all time, but possibly the second-best shooting guard of all-time. The upside truly is unlimited with Iguodala, who nearly set the world on fire with that first round against Orlando last season. Huge upside as you mentioned, but definitely a big gamble for Ferry and company.
Look at last year’s playoff numbers for all you need to see about Iguodala.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=2386&year=2009
21 PPG, 6.3 Assists, 6.7 Rebounds. .393% from 3, .449% from the field (.65 FT% numbers though).
Remember he was playing of ‘dre miller, so he wasn’t dominating the ball either. The guy can get it done.
“I see Igudala’s skill set and think, man, if this guy could play a style where he didn’t have to create so much for himself he’d be insane.” Good afternoon Tsunami, And this is why I have a problem letting Z go for this guy. The Cavs problem in the playoffs last year is that they don’t have enough guys that can create their own shots. Mo and Lebron were it, and face it – Mo choked the entire playoffs….big time. A guy that creates his own shots – like a Jamison – is what this team needs. You go… Read more »
Taking Dalembert’s contract with Iggy’s is tough. But I think it’s the only way the Sixers do the deal. They’re dangling Iggy to make you take Dalembert. Dalembert is serviceable, and would play better surrounded by winners. But he makes 12 Mil. per. He’d also be Shaq insurance, but I’m not sure we can re-sign Shaq next year if he’s here. Plus we now have 3 questionable shooters in our 4-5 rotation. Dalembert is not a horrible shooter, but is real streaky, and only has range to 12 feet or so. However he oddly shoots 84% from the line. He’s… Read more »
I think adding Iguofala to the mix would be huge…straight up huge… A few years ago, we got Mo Williams because his team didn’t want to deal with his salary. And since coming to Cleveland he’s flourished playing off Lebron. Guys who are super talented like Lebron run their team and make their other players better. First off, LBJ can make a lot of role players better. Guys like D West, Parker, Jamario, and Jawad all benefit playing with him. But when you get another player in his prime…IE Mo Williams…the step up in their game is phenomenal. I see… Read more »
Great post Tsunami. I want to add this about J.J. and IgUOdala. J.J. sucks. I love all Cavs players, even Danny Green and Jawad more than rationale would suggest. But I hate J.J. because he sucks and I would hate for his ‘potential’ to block a trade to bring us Iguodala. Let’s take a look at J.J. His rebounding% this year is 13.7% which is below average for a PF. This ‘young and improving player’ had a 13.9% mark last year. So his rebounding his below average and not improving. His TS% is good at 57% but he’s pretty low… Read more »
And would you rather have Iggy guarding Kobe in the Finals, or Delonte? Iggy is the same height as Kobe, and, like everyone has said, a really really good perimeter defender. Delonte is good too, but not big enough. And, we’re getting Leon Powe back some time soon, so in a trade for Iguodala we would be losing 1 big man (Hickson), and gaining Dalembert.. I don’t think it would take nearly as much time for Iguodala to adjust as Shaq. 2 completely different players. I think getting Iguodala is the best way to persuade Lebron to stay.
Also, don’t forget late season buy-outs: McGrady (might) be one, Raja Bell, if he’s not traded, Tony Battie, anyone in their last year on the Wizards, and Etan Thomas: not exactly a murder’s row. Battie could end up on the Celtics, Bell will be a hot commodity (Lakers would love him), and T-Mac will get a lot of workouts and sign with the best contender (Also a Laker’s possibility).
Disagree that JJ has no post moves. He has a lot of one-on-one post moves. He’s got a nice turnaround (his hang time is very good), a decent up and under, and a mediocre hook shot. He’s even showed signs of being a decent passer (though he doesn’t always spot the double). He has a decent face and drive to the right as well. What he lacks is a 15 footer. I don’t think I’ve seen him hit that shot all year. The problem with JJ in the post is that they pass to him there so infrequently, he feels… Read more »
I really don’t think Iguodala is that risky of a move. He plays like a bigger, better version of Delonte West, pretty much (with less shooting, more slashing). Giving up, say Z, Hickson, Boobie, and Parker, I’d def take it. Z prolly comes back, Hickson is the only player I would miss, but I doubt he will ever have as much effect on a game as Iguodala does now. Parker is the one being replaced, and Gibson would probably go back to not having much playing time anyway if he was in a backcourt with Mo Williams, Iguodala, and Delonte… Read more »
Don – I don’t think McGrady has anything left in the tank. And I’m not sure he could do what Shaq has done and put ego aside. When I look at Igudala I just see a guy that isn’t a franchise player but could REALLY be a missing piece guy. Remember, he’s unselfish, an elite defender, a fast-break nightmare, and despite his documented “shooting woes” he’s no more inefficient than a guy like Stephen Jackson. Look at the difference he has made in Charlotte and they are ASKING him to take lots of shots there. I see Igudala’s skill set… Read more »
Tsunami, All good points. Some comments back…. “I think sometimes we over-analyze players, or see what we want to see. Case in point, lots of people talk about JJ Hicksons ridiculous talent. Well, he still has zero post moves, never has plays called for him, and really just feasts on all the attention LeBron gets.” o The Cavs are going for a championship. Young players are not going to try out their moves until they’re totally debugged. JJ had move moves last year then this. I’m assuming he’s working on things in practice, but is being told not to use… Read more »
As a casual Cavs fan, I do not want Z’s 12-year fall-and-rise story to end with him being traded away the same year we seem to be hitting a rhythm on track to bring a championship to the city.
Sometimes, it matters who lifts the trophy. For me it’s not Lebron and a bunch of others, it’s LeBron, Z and a bunch of others.
Well said by both JK and Tsunami. I definitely like the idea of adding Iggy to this mix, but it has to be for the right price. In Ferry We Trust.
Thank you Tsunami for writing all of that out I completely agree with everything i just didnt feel like writing all that out… J.J. is overrated and iguodala is underrated, and although i dont believe in Ferry as much as you do cuse of the szczerbiak screw up I think he has done a really good job
A few things. 1.) Great breakdown of Iggy, JK. Sometimes I feel like you just do grunt work for us, but we appreciate it. 2.) I like the idea of adding Igudala more for the future than this year. This year this team is very reliant on our bigs. I would rank our players in terms of importance as: Bron, Andy, Shaq, Mo, Delonte, Z in that order. I highly doubt Shaq comes back next year unless he’s willing to resign at a huge paycut. Also, who knows if Z retires. Suddenly, 2 of our top 6 players are gone… Read more »
Don I get what your saying, but the 76ers would be buying out Z so essentially he would get to take a month off and come right back (Fresher for the playoffs), and to do the trade we would have to give up gibson, J.J. and either parker or moon so Danny green in my opinion would end up being the fourth backcourt player on the team instead of where he is now being 5th or sixth so he would get more consistant minutes, the biggest drawback in my opinion is the loss of all the shooting on the perimeter,… Read more »
Besides, as frustratingly inconsistent as JJ is, he still has provided a solid 8-5 on 55% shooting as a starter this year. _________________________ Charlie, You are not going to keep a team in contention for years unless you can develop your own young players. This Cavs team is so good because the core of Z, Andy and Boobie have grown with LeBron. This article talks about Iguodala being a true 2 to LeBron. Got news for you – the true 2 is on the Cavs now, and it’s JJ. He has more talent then anyone on that team other then… Read more »
Nice points, but pretty off the mark. Iguodala’s contract goes up for the next 4-5 years, ending at $16M. Considering that NBA salaries are coming down and the owners are talking about a hard cap, it’s no wonder that 76’er are trying to dump a 26 year-old player for an expiring contract that by logic they would be building on. His contract is going to stifle any team that takes it on. Add in that Iguodala’s game has suffer this year. OK, maybe it’s the losing. But I have my doubts this guy’s all that good. And then add that… Read more »
I keep going back and forth about what the Cavs “need” and how much they need it. All of the “stretch 4” options are weak defensively and all will require that minutes be taken away from AV, who is arguably our second best player. Besides, as frustratingly inconsistent as JJ is, he still has provided a solid 8-5 on 55% shooting as a starter this year. Food for thought: JJ’s 48-minute splits as a starter (18 points, 11 boards, 55% shooting) are comparable–certainly more efficient–than Jamison’s (26-11-46%). Statistically, SG is our weakest position. Parker and Boobie are role players, Delonte… Read more »
looking @ the rumors (murphy, jamison, iggy) from a risk/reward perspective i’d rank them like this:
1. iggy (high risk, high reward)
2. jamison (medium-high risk, medium-high reward)
3. murphy (low risk, low-medium reward)
I’d only do this if it was Iggy for Z straight up. If you throw in JJ, that’s taking away two frontcourt guys for a backcourt guy with a really crippling contract. I think the Cavs need another frontcourt guy more than another guard. Once Mo and West are back, we should be pretty deep in the backcourt.