Cavs: The Podcast 0034 – DRAFT FRENZY! Part 1
2013-06-28
Oh boy, CG did it again.
As has happened for the past two drafts, Grant managed to throw literally everyone off the scent, picking the one player most pundits hadn’t connected to the Cavaliers.
Colin, Tom, Nate and I hopped on the ole’ podcast line and talked this thing out. We discussed (obviously) Bennett, Karasev, the second round, whether or not Chris Grant has completely turned teams off from trading with him, and the direction of this Cavaliers team.
As always, we can be found on SoundCloud at: https://soundcloud.com/cavstheblog/0034-draft-frenzy-part-1
And on iTunes at: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/cavs-the-podcast/id528149843?mt=2
I can’t remember the last time I heard so much lisping…and I like the pick.
By now everyone realizes that the basketball gurus, prognosticators, “sources,” mock drafts, and trade rumors all were wrong about everything. Well, some had Oladipo and Porter pegged.
But it sure was fun speculating!!!
I’m ready to get on the roller coaster again next year! I predict it’ll be a year of Lebron coming back to the Cavs . . . and the Cavs having the opportunity to draft Wiggins via some incredible (that’s right – “not credible”) trade.
I’m disappointed that no one’s mentioned how awesome a name Carrick Felix is. Sounds like a boxer.
We got guys that can shoot, we only had 2 players who could shoot the three last year, Miles and Kyrie. Dion and Wayne Ellington came along at the end, so 4 players but the Cavs didn’t pick up Ellington. Now we have 5 players who can hit the 3 or at least long twos ;) That means that with a 3 and D type signing our offense now opens up so much more, assist rates will go up along with more team offense, at least that’s the theory.
And quit acting we all won’t have talked ourselves into the pick by the end of the month anyways.
The pick and roll and pick and pop possibilities between Kyrie/Dion and Bennett are going to be wet. I’m more and more okay with the selection. The only unmovable guy on the roster before the draft was Kyrie. The same holds true. It’s likely that Tristan and the #1 pick had middling trade value at best on draft night. That could change this season. Bennett will produce highlight plays. Thompson should be another year refined. I still think a trade is on the horizon.
Speights has opted out. I love the addition of Kadji to our summer league roster, a 6’11” athletic catch and shoot stretch 4 with solid defense. Look for him to find a place on our roster. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crG42tCzc0w
The more and more I think about this pick up the more and more I honestly love the pick and get excited for the future. I wanted Nerlens Noel because yes our defense was horrible and felt that he would be a defensive anchor which our team desperatley needs. But our team also desperatley needed another reliable scoring option and that’s exactly what we got with Bennett. Being able to have a big that can stretch the will make it that much harder for teams to clog the paint. That means a lot more room to opperate for Dion and… Read more »
Ok, I tried to finish up the podcast but holy moly you guys are off the reservation. A. You have no freaking idea what other GMs draft boards are. You can’t take a guy to trade him unless someone has made a predraft agreement and you don’t know who the more valued asset around the league is. Who are your sources for draft Baords? guys like Chad Ford who said that Noel was 100% being taken by the Magic if the Cavs passed, or the guy that said Zeller was going #4- oh wait that was nobody. You are feigning… Read more »
Agree with the commentariat that Tom was most reasonable.
Bennett’s length should help negate his lack of height defensively. Karasev looked like a nice pick too, but I’m just baffled that Grant passed on Jamaal Franklin at 33. Kid could be a defensive stopper and we snagged some training camp invite instead.
Another thing overlooked: all of us fans grew frustrated by the fact that, at the end of close games, our only hope was Kyrie or Dion to make insanely difficult shots going 1 on 5. Adding an offensive beast like Bennett changes that whole dynamic.
We can now run 2-man games with Kyrie or Dion and Bennett, stretch the floor with Karasev or Ellington, and have TT or AV running around grabbing offensive boards. Even in the LBJ days we never had a two man game. We now have the chance for one.
I also like the physicality he brings to what I see as a borderline soft team. And that’s why I’m not high on Zeller. I’m sure his skills will come around to where he’s considered to be a decent role player – but he’s soft. I like to have a couple of “bruisers” on my team. I like them on my team when I played (and Kyrie will, too) . . . and I hated to play against them.
No one knows how Bennett or anybody in this draft is going to turn out. But Bennett’s frame (his length, athleticism, and strength) . . . and how advanced his offensive skills are for a 19 year old (from dunking on everyone to having a sweet stroke on the 3) suggest that he CAN grow into a physically dominant, mismatch nightmare, 20-10 guy. Don’t the teams that go deep into the playoffs have that type of player? We might say the same possibility existed for Noel and McLemore . . . but Noel fell to 6 . . . and… Read more »
If big fat Boris Diaw was able to lock down Bron for much if the Finals then I’m not worried about what an uber athletic big forward can do in the league. Of course he won’t be able to stay in front of Durant. Who can? Its definitely true that he slacks in his way back down the court some. Kyrie does it all the time too. A dude that is chillin around 6’8 235-240 who can play either sf or pf with a jumper is going to be a tough cover regardless of who he is guarding and who… Read more »
Only person that made any sense was Tom. Everyone else was just whining and pretty much being hypocritical. Bennett is two years younger than Oladipo and has a way higher cieling. You guys are saying it’s redundant to have Bennett but it’s not with Oladipo? I understand the whole Dion as 6th man, but he was your 4th overall pick last year. With the first overall you pick who will be the best player in the draft and apparently Grant thinks that is Bennett. Noel’s knee issues were obviously too much of a concern and Len doesn’t seem to have… Read more »
My math was wrong above: Bennett would be 22-26 minutes.
The more I think about it, I just don’t get why people are worried about Bennet’s position. The Cavs have 96 minutes a game for the 4 and 5 slots. They now have 4 strong players there. AV will play 24 given his age and injury history. TT will probably play 30. TZ will play 16-20, which leaves 24-28 for Bennett. That is plenty of minutes for a talented rookie that still needs some development on D. If Bennett starts doing Barkley impersonations by the end of the year, he gets 30, TZ gets 14. And if you allow for… Read more »
As others have said- many problems with the tone of this podcast. To hit a few notes that seem to have been missed in the comments- 1. The Cavs should have traded 31+33 for Marion + 13? There is no credible evidence that this was ever on the table. The Mavs repeatedly (Mark Cuban- not a spokesperson) said they hadn’t put Marion on the table, further more all of the Mavs trades left them WITH a 1st round pick, which they used and have stated to be planning on keeping. In addition Marion’s contract has an ETO which occurs after… Read more »
I don’t buy the “other GM’s don’t want to deal with Grant” thing. There’s only so many of them. He’s probably pulled off more trades than damn near any other GM in the past three years. Was asking for a talented young player and a 2014 draft pick too much? Maybe. That’s what he should be asking for. Odds are the 76ers are going to get the 10ish pick next year from New Orleans. If Bennett was in school another year, he’d probably be a top 6 pick in a much better draft. We’ve brought up the OKC rebuilding comparison… Read more »
Preferably off…
turn your damn mic down!
@shepsie, did you not read my posts that mention what advanced stat guru Kevn Pelton said about Bennett?? Barri’s WOW is not considered a good draft rater at all.
In fact, Pelton had your guy Olidipo as about the 15th best prospect. Bennett 3rd.
I agree with most here, times like these are when this site is extremely frustrating to read (and listen to). If Bennett is one of the best rookies come February all the commenters will be bringing this podcast up and Mallory will be making excuses of why he wasn’t really wrong about him. It’s like a never ending cycle. Honestly, after reading Nate’s draft thoughts the past few months I’m somewhat relieved he hates the pick. And finally, thinking you have any clue if other teams are unwilling to deal with Grant is just stupid. Thinking another team would turn… Read more »
My reaction was WOAH!!! But I was looking at Bennett back when I was going crazy into who we might be able to pick with the 3-5 pick and I liked him. I like that we got an athlete, something sorely needed on this team who’s only crazy athletic guy is Gee, who I think we all like but are honest with ourselves about his limitations. The difference between this year’s team and last year’s team will be that the team actually HAS a defensive scheme. I watched probably about 70 Cavs games last year and agreed with the blog… Read more »
Pete, I am referring to Dave Berri’s wages of wins group. Bennett’s advanced stats were extremely low. From their metrics, Noel and Olapido look like the two potential all-stars of this draft. With the #1 pick, I think it is wise to go with the most likely all-star. With Noel’s injuries, I was hoping for Olapido, even though he isn’t a “need” for the Cavs. Olapido looked far and away like one the safest future all-star bets from other advanced stats perspectives too. Everything is a gamble, though :) !
@shepsle: How is this a bad pick for stat geeks? The only guys that graded above him on most models were Noel and Porter. I personally preferred Noel or Porter, but if they don’t like Noel (and apparently at least 5 other teams didn’t, considering NO traded him away and had to pay a lightly protected pick to do so), and thought Porter had too low of a ceiling, then it’s not a bad pick from a ‘stat geek’ perspective. What it is, is an unfortunate pick for people who expected the Cavs to go with defensive picks. Bennett’s advanced… Read more »
Awesome podcast! Much needed skepticism for those who are confused by this pick. For stat geeks, this pick is a bit unfortunate.
@kevin – I agree that GMs make mistakes. But those mistakes are not knowable 12 hours after a draft. They are knowable 1, 2, 3 years out. 3 years from now, if Bennett is a flop, it will make sense to question Grant. But the negative instantaneous reaction, given the lack of clear cut #1 player in the draft, really makes no sense.
defensive rating
grover13,
Not trying to pile on with my comment. I just don’t think that Bennett is a lost cause on defense. I think the right coach can make a difference. Take Tom Thibodeau for example. In his first year as coach, he took the bulls from a defensive of 11th to 1st.
@ grover13 In 2006-07, the Cavaliers didn’t have Delonte West on the roster. Also, Ira Newble only played in 15 games that season, and averaged 8 minutes in those games. However, they ranked 4th in defensive rating and 5th in opponents pts allowed. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2007.html That being said, I would give a little more merit to the idea that Mike Brown can get players to make more effort on D. If he couldn’t, he probably wasn’t a good hire. Regardless of who they drafted, Kyrie needs to improve on defense. I believe that was one of the reasons for bringing him… Read more »
@ grover13 I can’t believe you would compare Chris Grant to David Kahn. What a terrible comparison. Grant has drafted a stud PG, solid SG, solid PF, bench C, and now a promising SG/SF and SF/PF. Kyrie, Tristan, and Dion have exceeded what was expected of them when they were drafted and they have only played 1 or 2 years in the league. Grant has done a masterful job. In 3 years, he has used a first round draft pick on each of the 5 positions. What about any of this is comparable to David Kahn??? The annual draft rite:… Read more »
Brown got Sasha Pavlovic to play solid man defense, and his framework leveraged Hughes’ length and quick hands. I’m interested to see if his defensive system changes now that the Cavs are so young. Last time he was dealing with older players, he might be more aggressive with so many young bodies. I’m finding it intersting how wildly polar descriptions of Bennett are. He has been described as: Hyper-athletic not a great athlete Wants to tear down the rim at all times, one of the best finishers in the nation a below the rim player a middling rebounder a great… Read more »
I’ll agree with some of the commentators in that I think this podcast was too quick to be judgmental in such a weak draft. But i appreciate the time taken to give your thoughts. Also, somebody said “the power forward position is the deepest in the NBA.” What? Maybe second deepest. But point guard is by far the strongest position. Almost every team is built around a great or very promising PG right now.
@grover13-
Are you implying that it is impossible to teach 19 and 20 year olds to play team defense? LeBron didn’t come into the league as a defensive stalwart, one the major criticisms of young LeBron was his defensive focus. Who do you think helped him hone his defensive skills?
@kj-
Are you implying that because they are young that they don’t have discernable traits? That watching tape or statistical analysis can’t identify defense as a competency at age 19? Why exactly was Nerlens Noel touted as a top pick- his jump shot?
Don’t be a doofus.
Yes, a 19-year old and a 20-year have “no history.” Imagine that!
@vedwin- Brown was able to scheme to hide the weaknesses of Jones/Marshall/etc. because he did have some defensive talent on those teams- Lebron (all-around), Delonte West (backcourt), Ira Newble (wing) and Z (rim protector)- that he could anchor the defense with. This current version of the Cavs has NO ONE (outside of oft-injured Varejao who is not part of the long term plan) who excels on that side of the ball. Scheme won’t be enough. At some point, you have to add people who have that talent- like Otto Porter- even if that sacrifices some scoring ability. By all accounts,… Read more »
@grover I’m a little confused. You say that being a good defensive player is about awareness and desire. Are you saying that Marshall and Jones were secretly wanting to play defense all the years before they got to Cleveland and just never got a chance? If Mike Brown was able to put those veterans with no history of playing defense into a position where they were contributing to a top ranked defensive squad why don’t you think that would also be possible if not likely that he can accomplish the same feat with much younger, more athletic and more impressionable… Read more »
One of the things I like about Bennett is that I can see his personality fitting in with the other young guys. He seems to really enjoy himself, he’s got a big smile and an energetic attitude. Also, the fact that Brown likes him is a good sign. The problem with the NBA draft is that its hard to do useful deals to just move a few spots, because late round picks are worth very little (especially when you already have a bunch.) So the ‘luck’ of winning the lottery turns out to not be worth that much this year.… Read more »
I’m with Nate on this. Bennett is probably going to be really exciting to watch, but it won’t translate into wins. I think people just assume that because Mike Brown is acknowledged as a strong defensive coach, that he will magically be able to get a player who has never cared about defense to suddenly care. I think that’s a trap. Mike Brown is a great defensive TACTICIAN, as in scheme and team concept. He didn’t make Donyell Marshall a good defensive player. Or Larry Hughes, or Damon Jones. Lebron came out of high school touted as an all-around great… Read more »
I had thought all along the Cavs would draft one player and stash another with the 2nd round picks. My guess is that when Jean-Charles went off the board before they could take him with #31, they just decided to trade #31 for whatever they could get for it. If Jaiteh hadn’t pulled out of the draft last-minute, I bet he would have been the pick at #31 when J-C came off the board.
Felix was going to be there at #33 no matter what, so they didn’t have to worry about that.
Oh and since I haven’t seen it mentioned, Pluto and others reported that NO ONE in this draft was considered a starter by the Cavs front office. So, asking the questions about TT and Bennett “fitting” are the wrong questions to be asking…
My god, I can’t imagine what you Chicken Littles would have done when the Cavs drafted Kevin Johnson back-in-the-day.
It’s called BPA. It is the right call over “fit” EVERY TIME…
@Hot Sauce: Great point about the trade market. I don’t think I would have been happy with any deal for an established player, given what the Cavs would have to give up. I wouldn’t necessarily accuse you guys of groupthink (there’s a fair amount of debate in the podcast), but there’s overwhelming negativity and a lack of reasoned analysis. I get that it’s right after the draft and everyone is sharing their immediate reactions, but it wouldn’t hurt to look back at your reactions from previous drafts. Last year, Colin declared the #4 pick a “death sentence,” but I think… Read more »
Since evidently no else has read this let me throw the out there AGAIN so Nate Smith and his ilk can try and get it through their heads:
Pelton said that out of the top 30 players, Bennett was the only one who had “no statistical weakness.” Read that again and tell me why we should’ve drafted someone else??
And as Pestak rightly notes (looks like it’s me and Pestak this year like it was me and Hetrick last year with Dion) Pelton had Bennett third and Karasev 10th. Sounds like a pretty good effin draft to me…
Good point Pete. That’s how we did our mocks too – what will this team do. Had the Cavs drafted Cody Zeller there would have been rioting in the streets (and I think Zeller is pretty good) and he went before BOTH Len and Noel. So that gives you an idea of how cold GMs were on those two guys. And yes, the 2nd round made zero sense to me. There will still some good players on the board and the Cavs opted for a guy they could have just invited as a walk on. I really don’t get that… Read more »
You guys need to relax – most of the reax in the podcast were “I don’t understand this”. That’s a pretty fair sentiment right now. The Cavs biggest weakness is defense and specifically interior defense and neither of their picks addresses that (at least not right now). Back in February Gilbert tweeted that when this team came back to prominence it would be a defensive juggernaut, and then they fired B Scott and hired Mike Brown. So if analysts/bloggers/fans expected them to continue on that path and not draft two high-octane scorers can you blame them? I said 2 weeks… Read more »
I’m torn on this draft but it appears to be one of the worst perceived talent pools in history. So fine they thought Bennett was the best guy. I liked the Russian pick a lot. I’m puzzled as to every move in the 2nd round and the need to have 5 2014 2nd rounders. I’m not sure what the Cavs identity will be this season. They’d need to buy 2 or more big names to compete in the playoffs this season. They don’t look bad enough to win another tank-fest either. And really, how lucky can you be? So if… Read more »
I personally was hoping for Noel, Karasev, Jean-Charles. But the Spurs screwed that up for me (which of course means that I was right, and the Cavs should have traded #31 & #33 to move up and get him). Spurs always seem to strike oil on their late picks. Do I like Bennett, sure. At least I’m not as disappointed with him as I would have been with Len (who is atrocious in advanced stats models). I thought Bennett’s range was #2-4, so it’s not like it’s a “reach”. And while Mock drafts had him lower sometimes, that is because… Read more »
Even if the experts were right about the draft order, bottom line is that nobody in the draft was worth an established all-star, which is what the Cavs were trying to trade the #1 pick for.
Just because ‘tier 1’ of the draft contained 6 players, doesn’t mean they are considered ‘tier 1’ players in the league. According to those same experts those 6 players were actually considered to be ‘tier 3’ players in the NBA (starters/playoff team rotation players).
Thank God Tom was there to keep this podcast from going off the rails. I understand the pick was shocking and brings up questions about the future but the sheer amount of assclown things said in this podcast was comical. You guys narcissistically disregarded any rational argument by Tom. I loved this answer from today’s press conference: Q: Mike, these first two picks in the first round are offensive minded guys, you were brought in here for defense. Are you confident with what you’ve seen so far on film from last year and adding a couple of guys this year… Read more »
Adding to the Noel trade: NO had to give up an additional pick AND Noel to get Holiday. That says a lot about how Noel is viewed as a prospect. While the “experts” all had him top of the board, none of the people in the league did. I know its a crazy notion – but maybe the “experts” were wrong?
@Mallory: Teams don’t give a damn about Chris Grant. If Adolf freaking Hitler offered them a trade that benefited their team, they would take it in a heartbeat. Bottom line is that NOBODY WANTED THE PICK. Period. Regardless of what you think of Jrue, he is only maybe the 10th best PG in the league, and NO had to trade Noel AND a very lightly protected pick in next year’s draft to get him. Nobody liked the top of this draft, nobody wanted the pick for an established player. Even with Noel, what could we have traded it for? A… Read more »
Once again, the podcast has been basically awful. I realize that you guys did this immediately after the draft and were a bit hyped up, but you guys need to try to cut out the hyperbole. You are ridiculously negative and miss some key points. (other than Tom) Some things: Tristan is not an undersized PF. He has over a 9 foot reach. Reach is more important than head height. He is long and already bigger and stronger than his listed weight. We often get confused because he played so much Center, we got used to saying the word “undersized”… Read more »
Yet Hasheem Thabeet still goes #2 in a draft, Hot Sauce.
Hot Sauce,
While GM’s spend a lot of time evaluating players and have great information, they are still wrong a lot (I’m not necessarily talking about Chris Grant here). If every GM was right all of the time, then fans would probably feel less entitled to have objecting opinions.
I was a proponent of trading leading up to the draft, but I agree that the Noel plus 2014 #1 for Jrue Holiday summarizes the apparent lack of a trade market. It was a nice thought in theory, but certainly with that market, the team had to make a pick. Bennett was a consensus top five guy…I’ll write something for Monday about the draft.
I do like the Karasev pick.
The great irony of post-draft “grading:” Chris Grant (and all GMs) spend 1000’s more hours than anyone in the media researching and evaluating talent, they have access to information no one else does, and, based on all of that information and analysis, they figure out who the best players are. They then make selections that don’t line up with the “rankings” of the media/bloggers (who know less about the game and have worse information and limited resources), and those media/bloggers then give them bad “grades.”
Cracks me up every time!
Worrying about a 19 year old’s defense is dumb.
Like Nate, I don’t think we have group think at all (I’ll leave that to the chorus) I honestly don’t even dislike Bennett. I don’t know a ton about him, other than what I’ve read/the little I’ve seen him play/videos. What I do know is: 1. Teams don’t want to deal with Chris Grant anymore. I’m sorry, but that’s disconcerting. 2. For all the “assets” that have been collected, the Cavs haven’t pulled a single big trade. Maybe they’re not out there, so I clearly cannot fault Grant, but I’ll remain skeptical of asset collecting until I begin to see… Read more »
Also. Larry Hughes was a horrendous defender, and the advanced statistics back this up (now that they exist). He had a great steal ratio for one year, and then once he was in a defense that wasn’t aggressively going for steals he was exposed for how bad he really was on D.
No groupthink here, at least on my part. If I colored other staffers’ opinions with my derisiveness, I feel bad, but they have their own opinions. I’ve hated Bennett from the minute I started approaching this draft, and I’ll completely own it. I think he is going to be a bust of the highest order. He’ll go down as the worst #1 draft pick since Kwame Brown. My reasoning is quite simple: he doesn’t play defense, he’s a 6’7″ tweener, and he’s merely an average rebounder in a weak conference, and he’s going to be too big and slow to… Read more »
Glad to see you guys waited until after the draft do do all of your mocking!
Seriously, you can stand behind your team’s players while criticizing them without sounding like idiots. Don’t be Bill Simmons…
I generally like the work on this site, but commentary here lacked a bit of logic or reason or ressonable . The Cavs needed front court scoring, not just a center. Now they got front court scoring. They still have 15+ mil in Cap space and tons of assets. Plus Bennett is going to be incredibly fun to watch. Too much groupthink here.
I found myself frustrated listening to this. Lots of criticism, but all of the shots taken at the team ignore the context in which the decisions have been made. At one point someone suggested that in retrospect the TT pick was bad because now they have Anthony Bennett. The Cavs could not have known that the best talent available (from their perspective) would be a PF two years down the road. You can make the argument that the Bennett pick was wrong due to fit this year, but the Cavs are in no position to be drafting anything other than… Read more »
Correction: MOTHERS’
Carry on.
Look forward to listening to this.
Brian, the correct cliche is “their MOTHER’S basements.” Step up your troll game.
come to think of it, this podcast alone is reason enough to not use this website at all. i’ll stick with WFNY and Fearthesword. peace
don’t bother listening to this, unless you like listening to a few jaded cavs fans sitting in their basements, pretending to be experts. these goofballs still think that JV is better than TT bwahahaha!