Links To The Present: July 20, 2010
2010-07-19
“The old Cavs, obviously, were built around James, with players who were brought in because of the way their games complemented his. He was the supernova, the hub of the wheel, the raison d’etre. Without him, Cleveland is a shadow of its former championship-contending self, the nightmare scenario come true for a city that walked on eggshells for seven seasons — an expensive, old shell with no great player around which to build. There is Mo Williams, and Anderson Varejao, and third-year forward J.J. Hickson, and a lot of question marks.” [David Aldridge on Cavs]
“What the Cavs wanted to scream at the TV and have been seething about privately all during the Vegas Summer League is how could they when James himself had them shackled to the short term.” [Brian Windhorst on LeBron the FA Magnet]
“There’s no way, with hindsight, I would’ve ever called up Larry [Bird], called up Magic [Johnson] and said, ‘Hey, look, let’s get together and play on one team,'” Jordan said after playing in a celebrity golf tournament in Nevada. The interview aired on the NBC telecast of the event. “But that’s … things are different. I can’t say that’s a bad thing. It’s an opportunity these kids have today. In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys.” [Michael Jordan on LeBron James]
Henry Abbott wonders out loud how LeBron James is now the player most people “love to hate”. Seems pretty obvious – he USED to have a legion of Ohioans by his side. Not anymore.
D Wade compares the media coverage of a couple of reg season “South Beach” losses to the WTC terrorist attacks. Smart.
Erin Phelps shares her feelings as a transplanted Cavs fan.
“The Man” is being used in all different contexts. Bryant Gumbel’s take.
@ ben tej: the cavs trounced a lot of teams last year and you’re correct in that it made the 4th quarter (and sometimes 2-4) optional. but, yeah, i might still watch. i used to watch tyson fights when everybody knew he was going to kill the guy. because it was still tyson. but you’re mistaken if you assume that’s going to happen more than usual with the heat. even very good teams, like boston in 08, play to the level of their opponents. and against good teams, there are no assurances. you really think miami is that much better… Read more »
So you’d rather watch them sit on the bench in the 4th quarter laughing than watch Congressman James led Bulls vs. a revamped Heat team? That’s ridiculous. (Aside: Of course the LeBron/Wade matchups were meaningless the last few years — MIA was gutting their roster.)
Would you rather rewatch the first Dream Team Olympics or the Redeem Team Olympics? It seems like you’d prefer the former because you, the true basketball fan, get to watch one super team trounce everyone else.
Enjoy your basketball porn in Miami this year, true basketball fan.
Logic, I completely agree with you. From my comment above…..
“I don’t know that he sucks as a teammate. He stunk it up that series, and yeah, he probably gave up. But he gave 7 years of all-out basketball, and was a good teammate all the way up until his last 3 or so games as a Cav. “
“Logic, I don’t understand how you can still think LBJ is a great teammate when you just saw what we all saw..he QUIT on his team. This whole idea that his “deferring” is linked to him being a good teammate is bogus now. We know, for a fact, he sucks as a teammate. ” This is an embarrassing revisionist history. LeBron’s teammates in Cleveland loved him and he was always an unselfish player. Do you only remember the 2010 playoffs? Because I haven’t even been discussing that, and one series is a very small sample size. I know that Cavs… Read more »
@Colin Sorry, got all mixed up with the 95 thing too. Stupid work by me. Either way though, my point is the same. That Bulls team was GOOD without MJ. I think they’re very comparable to a D-Wade and Chris Bosh Heat team. And beyond that, the reason I’m making that point in the first place is that the deification of MJ is over the freaking top. He had a solid supporting cast and was lucky enough to win 6 titles. The fact that he a cut-throat a**hole didn’t mean he was destined to win 6 titles…things happened to fall… Read more »
@ ben tej, no, i’m not going to miss lebron vs dwayne wade, and no true basketball fan will either. because lebron vs wade is a myth, a media construct used to sell tickets to a regular season game that doesnt matter. the heat vs the cavs were terrible games, producing nothing more than sportscenter fodder when it was realized that both teams were so bad that the final minutes had to be dominated by the only real playmakers on each side. so no, im not going to miss watch two great basketball players revert to a 1v1 schoolyard game… Read more »
James, I would say Wade is a better player than Pippen. If they go on to win a few titles, it will be an easy choice between the two.
I’d also say Wade’s best two years have been the last two. I don’t think he’s peaked at all (unless last year was it..who knows).
HA, hemlock, the patented “I follow celebrity not a team” koan.
If you’re such a basketball fan, isn’t a part of you going to miss seeing Congressman James and Wade go head to head in a fourth quarter, trying to beat each other? You’d rather watch them sit on the bench while Big Z, Joel Anthony, Daequan Cook and some other minimum player jack up 3s in a 30 point win? THAT’S BEING A BASKETBALL FAN?
You are a bandwagon fan. Trying to take the holier than thou approach just makes you seem petty at the same time.
The Nupe,
I think we’re pretty much in agreement. Like I said, I don’t find that equation very useful either. I just find the knee jerk “But Robert Horry” retort almost as useless.
@James:
Pippen did not get the Bulls to within one game of the finals. They lost in the East Semis in 94.
@Logic:
4th year Jordan? I don’t know. I can only vouch for the Jordan I was alive to see (6 rings Jordan), and that Jordan would have made it happen because he had matured to a point that he realized he couldn’t go it alone.
@ Rich Ah, at first I thought you meant that him choosing to leave the Cavs meant LeBron was a bad teammate. I realize now you must be referring to the weird Boston series situation. I agree that his play and demeanor in that series was, well, despicable. I don’t get it. Unless there was some really crazy stuff going on behind the scenes, it’s impossible to defend what he did in that series. That said, however, I don’t know that he sucks as a teammate. He stunk it up that series, and yeah, he probably gave up. But he… Read more »
@Rich I find it a bit contradictory that on one hand you have used PER to make your points several times in this comment section alone but on the other hand you find Kobe to be the clear number one on the Lakers. Kobes and Gasols PER were very similar the last 2 years and this year Gasols PER was higher, despite the fact that PER is a very Kobe-friendly metric, especially against Gasol, because it rewards low efficiency chucking to a degree (as in every additional shot taken at 40%+ FG% increases PER). In less chucking-friendly metrics Gasol was… Read more »
I think the idea to boycott James return to the Q is a great idea!
Just looked at the pic on ESPN.com of T-Mac, Shaq and AI and wondered if the Cavs added all 3 right now. ?????????????
Logic, I don’t understand how you can still think LBJ is a great teammate when you just saw what we all saw..he QUIT on his team. This whole idea that his “deferring” is linked to him being a good teammate is bogus now. We know, for a fact, he sucks as a teammate. The arguements going on here are impossible to prove. This team vs. that team. This player on this team and that player on another team. It’s all speculation. I perosnally believe Jordan with this Cavs team beats the Celtics. I can’t prove that. But it’s no different… Read more »
Colin: “I’m sorry, but Jordan DEFINITELY takes that 07 team to the finals. That might have been the weakest year any conference has seen in a long, long time. And that Pistons defense was severely overrated. I would say Jordan even grabs a game against the Spurs, but I still don’t think they win that series.” Why exactly? The lineup of Eric Snow, Michael Jordan, (insert Larry Hughes’ equivalent of SF here if you believe that the team would not start 2 shooting guards), Drew Gooden, and Z would be worse than having LeBron. Your use of “DEFINITELY” (hilarious that… Read more »
@ The Nupe
You’re cherry-picking accomplishments, skills, achievements and stats to fit your viewpoint.
I’m NOT saying that “X MVPs = X Greatness” but I think that’s a lot more relevant than “X Rings = X Greatness”. I don’t know if there is any formula to determine best player ever or greatest player ever. One thing I do believe is that rings is not a part or a very very very small part of it. Rings are given to a TEAM and represent the best team that year. The only thing I can think of that really starts to get at best PLAYER would be MVP awards. Not saying that an MVP is the… Read more »
Damn, F-ed my tags.
I’ve never been an advocate of the “X Rings = X^2 Greatness” argument. But I’ve never found the “But Robert Horry” rebuttal very convincing, either. I see it as attacking a straw man, because it ignores the greatness parameter in the aforementioned equation. When people point to Kobe’s rings, they are pointing specifically at the rings on Kobe’s fingers, not the ones on his fortunate, role-playing teammates’ hands.* The actual argument is intended to distinguish between two otherwise equally talented players, using ring differential as a reason why one is ultimately superior to the other. Robert Horry is completely irrelevant… Read more »
@Kevin I’m a LeBron fan first, and was a Cavs fan second. I hope the Cavs do well because in watching LeBron I’ve become attached to their ragtag group of players, but that interest will wane after a month of watching them play. I’ll keep coming here because I think John Krolik is one of the best basketball writers we have, and even if his tone is now bitter towards LeBron and the Heat, it’ll still be a quality perspective and will probably be better than what’s available anywhere else. LeBron is the reason I watch basketball. I think the… Read more »
@Andrew
That’s what I’m talking about.
@Dave Shockingly, I’ve never heard the “96 Bulls vs. 2010 Cavs” argument made. That’s a great point, man. It’s been noted plenty of times, though, that the Pippen-led, MJ-less Bulls won 55 games and made it to the conference finals. Of course, there was never a Cavs team during the LeBron era that would’ve been able to do that. But here’s something to think about: doesn’t a Dwayne Wade + Chris Bosh Miami Heat team sound like about a 55 win, conference finals team? Is the supporting cast that Miami has for LeBron, though admittedly great, any better than the… Read more »
I just think everyone is confusing “being the best” (or even “being a winner”) with “being Jordan”. Just because Jordan was the best does not mean that you have to be like Jordan to be the best. It’s a logical fallacy that everyone seems to not see. And Jordan is considered the best because he won. We place a huge premium on that intangible factor that seems to allow one person to win more than others, even though it may be a combination of many other, often arbitrary factors. Then, to turn around and say Lebron is not a competitor/winner… Read more »
So the Bulls sucked when Jordan got there. True, but Jordan didn’t win any titles when his team sucked. He won titles when his team got better. Jordan was clearly the catalyst and a huge reason for the Bulls getting better as a franchise, but it was because of more players than just him. I’ve seen many arguments on this blog about how the Bulls in their prime with Jordan were stacked. I’m not trying to disparage MJ; I’m just saying that even MJ himself never won a title by himself like people seem to think LeBron should be able… Read more »
I’m sorry, but Jordan DEFINITELY takes that 07 team to the finals. That might have been the weakest year any conference has seen in a long, long time. And that Pistons defense was severely overrated.
I would say Jordan even grabs a game against the Spurs, but I still don’t think they win that series.
And with respect to the Jordan deification, here’s a comment I posted about a week and a half ago: “I’m really sick of this “Jordan would’ve never done this or that” junk. MJ did lots of awful, awful s***, but was lucky enough to be in a situation to win lots of titles. Like it or not, no matter how good you are, winning a title involves lots of luck. Winning 6 involves an extraordinary amount. Saying that punching teammates or being a pathological a**h**** results in titles makes little sense. It’s just as likely that being an inclusive person… Read more »
@seven dwarfs and @Dave — Good points you guys, I’m with you. Especially the win percentage and “will to win” distinction, that’s solid man. @ The Nupe You say: “Bottom line, it’s not about the rings, it’s about the player and how they approach the game.” COME ON MAN. That’s silly! The people on this site specifically should take huge offense to that statement. For years Cavs fans screamed that LeBron was the best player alive (and they were backed by things like “evidence” and “facts”) and lazy analysts would say Kobe was the best (using words like “assassin” and… Read more »
I love what James did in stretching out his decision. How many times have NBA players been cut or traded without notice and have to relocate their families. I enjoyed watching corporate america being held hostage for onece by the employee. It is funny how the owners got upset at the athlete having business sense. WOW! His brand has gained so much attention for this Lebron has solitified himself as the model of the NEW ATHLETE. The one that makes business decisions not emotional decisions that only get you run down and traded or cut because you dont sale tickets… Read more »
Logic, how can you not think Jordan can do what LBJ can? If the only great thing LBJ has going for him is his stats….well, Jordan has him beat. The highest PER seasons ever were by…Jordan. Jordan could carry a team moreso than LBJ..ESPECIALLY in the playoffs. Exactly what about Jordan’s game made him selfish? The fact that he shot the ball a lot? I would think when you put up amazing PERs and have seasons in which you shoot FIFTY FOUR percent, shooting a lot shouldn’t be perceived as selfishness. As a matter of fact, I think quitting in… Read more »
Yea, Dave, the Bulls were the Clippers when Jordan got there. So, yea, he did do things the hard way. Sevn dwarfs, how can you not say Kobe has won multiple titles as the clear number 1? He just did it twice. The gap between Kobe and Pau is bigger than the one between Wade and LBJ. People seem to just think LBJ is head and shoulders above Wade, and he isn’t. Wade is second to LBJ in PER and ahead of him in usage. The gap is easily small enough to that if/when they win titles, Wade won’t be… Read more »
Kevin: “I have yet to meet a person that was a LeBron fan first and a Cavs fan second that thought LeBron made an arse out of himself with The Decision” Does online count? LeBron is my favorite player ever. I’m from Ohio so had the pleasure of watching all of his games on Fox Sports. But I always thought the coaching, management, and players around him were beneath him. I never was, nor still am not, a fan of the Cavaliers but they became my favorite team b/c of LeBron. Though I’ll probably follow this blog still b/c some… Read more »
P.S.– Of course I meant, “run the offense,” not “office.” Though he probably did that too, when he was with the Cavs.
Also — I wouldn’t be surprised if Lebron ends up as the 3rd-leading scorer on the Heat next year behind Wade and Bosh. And I’m not saying that’s a “bad” thing. From what Lebron’s said publicly, I really think he sees himself, ideally, as the player who will run the office, lead the team in assists, and crash the boards, and contribute scoring but not necessarily be the primary scorer. In other words, he’ll be Magic Johnson, and Wade and Bosh will be something akin to Worthy and Kareem (though those latter two comparisons aren’t nearly as accurate). But what… Read more »
Dave — Your comment about Jordan is way off base. Guess what? Before they drafted Jordan, a “perenially crappy team” is exactly what the Bulls were. Jordan had to go through years of playoff battles against two of the all-time great teams, the mid-80s Celtics and the Bad Boy Pistons, just to get to the Finals. Not to mention, beating the Cavs with “the Shot” was pretty damned impressive considering that that Cavs team was loaded with talent and swept the Bulls, 6-0, in the regular season. On top of all this, Jordan came back from 2 years off at… Read more »
LeBron is clearly the best player on the Heat but will be perceived as the guy who had to go somewhere to chase rings by teaming up with arguably the 2nd best player in the league and another top 10-15 player. Assuming the Heat win rings and LBJ is the finals MVP, he will still be perceived as taking the easy way out. Which he himself said when talking about not needing to feel the pressure to go out and score 30 pts every night. He’s joining Wade’s team and it will be interesting to see who ‘leads’ that team,… Read more »
I’m not convinced that LeBron won’t get credit for championship rings won with the Heat. Most people expect that LeBron will be subordinate to Wade or, at best, equal to Wade, but when LeBron was still in Cleveland, most people agree that LeBron was a superior basketball player. What’s everyone going to say if LeBron emerges as the clear best player on the Heat and both Wade and Bosh are his sidekicks? I don’t think the Heat is destined to be Wade’s team; I think there’s a pretty good chance that LeBron will usurp him. Furthermore, I still don’t buy… Read more »
This is really all just public perception formed by the media. Kobe never made it out of the first round without either a better player or an equal player plus ridiculously stacked team. Lebron never had that and it’s even debatable if he will have it next year. He is younger than Wade and has been better for years so it’s perfectly possible he will be the clear number 1 guy on the Heat. If he wins multiple rings as the clear number 1 he will be one of very few players to do that, and Kobe is not one… Read more »
Man the Wade/WTC comment was harmless imo. People making something out of nothing in todays politcally correct world. He simply said the MEDIA would blow it out of proportion and compare it to something like the WTC. It’s sad that he had to apologize for that comment.
@ James: Kobe’s ‘offense’ (never convicted) was a lot worse than LeBron’s “Decision” but from a competitive LeBron made a bigger career mistake. Yes, a lot of fans are pissed over how LeBron announced his decision, but just about all basketball fans believe now that LeBron is trying to take the easy way out and has admitted he’s a failure. He has just about killed his image as a competitor that should be mentioned in the same breath as MJ, Magic, Larry and yes, Kobe. The one constant about Kobe has been his will to LEAD a team AND WIN.… Read more »
I will be at every single game that lebron plays in Cleveland for the rest of his career. I will also be completely hoarse after each game because I will boo and jeer him until I cannot speak! The way things went down was reprehensible!
Good back and forth going on here guys. What we don’t have data on is how many LeBron fans are out there. I have yet to meet a person that was a LeBron fan first and a Cavs fan second that thought LeBron made an arse out of himself with The Decision. A scorned Clevelander never forgets, but a media-blitzed fan of individuals will. Kobe will always be despised until he retires.
Hey Cavs Fans, In all seriousness, I think the best way for you guys to stick it to LeBron next season would be to completely boycott his first game back to The Q. You know he’s expecting a packed house of angry Cleveland fans ready to boo him and he’ll probably be playing extra hard to stick it to Dan Gilbert. Why not stage a massive boycott and not show up? You gave this guy everything for 7 years night in and night out. Let him show up to an empty arena as his homecoming. The truth is the Heat… Read more »
@Colin Also, expanding further on your comparison between the LeBron and Kobe situation, you correctly point out that Kobe wasn’t all that popular pre-Colorado. I remember the line back then being, “Kobe has always been cold and calculating, and his true villainous side is now showing through.” And to some extent, that was true. Kobe was always calculating and felt a little contrived. The Eagle situation was further evidence for people who already thought of Kobe as an a**hole. The tone surrounding LeBron’s career, and now “The Decision,” has definitely been different. Up until 2 weeks ago, LeBron had always… Read more »
@Colin True that the swing might have been more dramatic (higher high to a lower low), but I think the reaction to LeBron’s decision is very much a visceral one, an enormous knee jerk reaction to a PR blunder. People are upset over the way he left, and rightfully so. But ultimately, it’s a more forgivable offense than Kobe’s. And actually, because LeBron was more admired a few months ago than Kobe was pre-Colorado, as you pointed out, I think people will be quick to remember that admiration. The fact that he’s not playing basketball right now doesn’t help LeBron’s… Read more »
@James and Isaac:
Although, in comparing the two, I would argue that LeBron’s fall in popularity has been even more dramatic than Kobe’s was. LeBron went from being the most popular player in the NBA, by what seemed to be a fairly wide margin, to now the most hated.
Even before the whole rape thing, Kobe was never the most popular player in the sport. In fact, there were many that already despised him.
I noticed that too, Isaac. If this is to be LeBron’s low-point in his career in terms of popularity, it’s not THAT low of a point. I’m sure any poll taken after Kobe’s Colorado incident would’ve looked a lot more grim.
The funny thing is, despite everything the media have been saying and stirring up the last week or so, Lebron was only the most unpopular sportsperson in that poll by 8%: His 33% to Kobe’s 25%.
I’m sorry, but that Bryant Gumbel piece is absolutely ludicrous. The ONLY thing that matters to the media is titles, it’s the sole judge of a player’s worth in the eyes of many. People still get away with saying Kobe Bryant is the best player alive despite hundreds of games indicating the opposite, because his team wins titles. And to say that Ewing and Barkley and Marino are still respected despite their lack of titles? COME ON. The fact that they didn’t win a title is in the first line of their sports obituary. No one forgives a great player… Read more »
Check out http://www.outtatownclowns.wordpress.com, a great read on the possibility of Ramon Sessions heading to Cleveland in a swap.