Links to the Present: Chicken Edition
2014-07-16
The Cavs landed veteran free agent Mike Miller yesterday to begin the process of filling out the roster. It’s a move that will surely give the team some added depth. The Cavs are still looking at a trade for Kevin Love to add a final piece to contend for titles with; however, the Wolves and Cavs seem to be playing a game of chicken, where a crash is inevitable if Andrew Wiggins isn’t in one of the cars headed to the trade zone.
Sam Amico of Fox Sports breaks down some of the points on why the two teams can’t agree.
Right now, it appears the Cavs and Timberwolves have drawn their lines in the sand. “No Wiggins, no Love,” the T-Wolves seem to be saying. “You’re not getting Wiggins, period,” the Cavs seem to respond. Again, each stance makes perfect sense — for now.
Amico counters that the Cavs have all the power here.
But the Cavs probably have the actual advantage here. Love won’t be signing a contract extension with the Timberwolves. So that means the T-Wolves stand a chance to lose him for nothing. The Cavs, however, are willing to offer them something. Just not Wiggins. Not now. And frankly, why should they?
If I had to make a prediction, I imagine a trade for Love will happen mid season after the Wolves sputter a little and Love definitively tells Flip Saunders he will not resign no matter what. Then Dion Waiters, Anthony Bennett, and a future pick will probably be sent to a different winter snow zone to play. Trading Wiggins seems far fetched because he has looked so transcendent already during his appearances in Summer League.
However, I understand the view that Wiggins should be traded. Rick Grayshock at Waiting For Next Year pushes for a Love trade including Wiggins because just winning one title would be enough for him.
I’m getting older. I’m the oldest writer here at WFNY. I was born eight years after the last championship team in Cleveland. That one trophy is getting to be pretty important to me.
Yes, I’d love to watch a team that wins say two of the next four NBA titles. But I refuse to think about multiple titles or a dynasty type of run until that first parade downtown.
Rick admits that he is a lot older, definitely above 40, so that has a lot to do with his win now view. When I talk to older family, 
a lot of them share the same view. I can’t fault them, but I’m very selfish, so I’d rather wait it out for Wiggins to develop and hope that the Cavs could win a title when he comes into his own as a second man next to LeBron James. Then the Cavs could win a title with LeBron supporting and Wiggins leading the next season. Wiggins will get there with the help of LeBron.
LeBron said he was excited to mentor players in his essay about coming home, and the organization is ready to let him do that. Jeff Zillgitt of USA Today sports caught David Blatt’s thoughts on LeBron mentoring and the young players on the team.
For a guy a like Andrew, to have the opportunity to play with arguably one of the best players of all-time and to learn from him and be tutored by him and to play alongside him, which he will in many cases, I’ve got to think that’s a tremendous boost to his confidence, to his comfort level and probably to his motivation to be even better,” Cavaliers coach David Blatt said.
“I was happy to see his [Bennett’s] confidence level high,” Blatt said. “I was happy to see his energy and his ability to run the floor and to stay in it for extended periods of time. I just think with his approach and his improved approach and condition, he’s just going to get better and better.”
In a surprise break for the Cavs, Lance Stephenson has signed a three year contract worth $27 million for the Charlotte Hornets. 
The third year is a team option. This contract effectively gets Lance out of an already stacked central division and will help weaken fellow division friends, the Pacers. Chris Broussard said it took one face to face meeting with Lance to quell any worries about his attitude. With a full season of antics to explain, Lance must be one hell of a talker to get rid of any worries. He’d be a great con man.
If you’re interested in Dan Gilbert’s meeting with and courting of LeBron look at Terry Plutto’s piece. Gilbert’s and LeBron’s actions have changed how the team will be perceived by the world. Jim Ingraham of the Morning Journal explains why LeBron returning home is such a feel good story and will make the team more loveable.
James’ decision to stop chasing rings and start chasing redemption, to commit to re-enforcing family values, prioritizing loyalty to his hometown, to acknowledging that the ties that bind and should always be respected are the ties to the community that is, was and forever will be home — that’s what makes The Revision so admirable.
There have been many conflicting views on the economic impact of LeBron coming back to Cleveland. Robert L. Smith of The Plain Dealer has said that the amount of money James may bring home varies wildly from $245-$520 million.
Ken Mayland, president of ClearView Economics in Pepper Pike, argues money spent on Cavs games is leisure money that would have been spent on other activities by the same pool of consumers.
LeBron James will bring in some new money with out of town fans, he said, but most of the new jobs will be temporary and lower paying.
“This will have a barely noticeable, positive impact,” Mayland said. “It doesn’t seem to me it moves the needle that much.”
Smith concluded that LeBron’s biggest impact will be the increased positive perception of Cleveland by insiders and outsiders.
Any chance that LeBron opts out next year (does he have an opt out clause?) and take a team-friendly contract like he did in Miami ($15M?)
I know he won’t, but it’s a little bit annoying that took less than his worth to team up in Miami and win titles, but signs a short term deal with us so that he can maximize his earnings for the rest of his career.
Nothing against him, but an annoying timing thing.
He does have an opt out after this year.
matt I will drink to that !
thank God that chris grant is not in the GM chair. Imagine how the pontification would unfold then. Personally, I am happy in the following order: 1) LBJ to cavs 2)Wiggins first rather than a 9th or 10th pick 3)Irving max contract with clauses 4)AB15 looks like he learned from the mike brown era more than he ever could have otherwise. 5) David Blatt knows more than a thing or 2 about basketball 6) Trade asset pontification is fun when arm chair GM’s get together on an online forum I’m not being sarcastic, but I wish i could meet alot… Read more »
If it isn’t already planning to, CtB should definitely do a roundtable discussion about Kevin Love and all the various ways we could(n’t)/should(n’t) obtain him. Would be nice to see all the pros and cons laid out in orderly fashion. Lots of opinions all around on the matter!
I think we just did all that…
Can we sign Greg Oden on the cheap, and have a starting five entirely of #1 overall picks?
PG – Irving
SG – Wiggins
SF – LeBron
PF – Bennett
C – Oden
We could do that, but we are trying to contend for a NBA title, not be the answer to a random trivia question.
I’m really disappointed in how much discussion there has been about trading Wiggins for Love when it’s not even possible straight up under the salary cap rules. The trade would have to be Wiggins plus a lot of other valuable players. With all of the players the Cavs would have to add to match salaries they would likely devestate their future and hamstring their opportunities to improve going forward. A lineup with Andy, Love, LBJ, Miller and Kyrie could be a contender but not without a bench. The Cavs would be without one after trading away all of their youngsters… Read more »
So how many points is Wiggins going to average his rookie year?
Last year:
MCW . . . . . . . 16.7
Oladipo . . . . . 13.8
Burke . . . . . . . 12.8
Hardaway . . . . 10.2
McLemore . . . . . 8.8
Olynyk . . . . . . . 8.7
Kelly . . . . . . . . . 8.0
Plumlee . . . . . . 7.4
Wolters . . . . . . . 7.2
DependsDepends on his role but I’d guess 10-12. Probably 25mpg. But his offense won’t really be his key contribution.
Wiggins is going to score 25 a night. Easy.
Care to make a friendly wager, Cols? What are the stakes?
I didn’t write that. Someone else did. I think 15 ppg.
That’s good. So you’re only semi delusional instead of entirely nuts.
I’ll take the under. What are the stakes?
I think between Varejao’s contract coming off the books and Brendan Haywood’s contract the Cavs will be able to add one more significant piece by next summer (and hopefully re-sign Andy for less $$$).
Personally, I’d love to get Marc Gasol, but I think he tops almost every team’s list.
Dion’s going to command a good chunk of that.
We can trade Haywood for someone (sign and trade for Gasol might work) and still extend TT and Dion with their Bird rights. We’ll definitely be in the luxury tax but I genuinely think Gilbert won’t care.
Why is Memphis trading Gasol for cap space, when they could have the cap space by just letting him walk? And what are they going to do with that cap space that is a smarter deal for them than just re-signing Gasol?
Because we can include a pick or two in the process. And if Gasol wants to sign with them, sure. Who’s to say he wouldn’t prefer Cleveland though?
Oh and Andy will probably sign for a lot less than ten mill, but again with Bird rights it won’t even matter.
So, trading for Love and creating a Big 3 sounds great, but then we’d be stretched thin financially. Hell, we’re stretched thin already and we need a center that we can’t afford. I think we’d be better off trading one of our young assets and a future pick for Asik. That’s a low-risk, moderate- to high-reward move. Thoughts?
Why would New Orleans trade Asik for anything we have to offer? They just traded for him because they really like his fit in the frontcourt with Anthony Davis and Ryan Anderson. If we wanted Asik, we needed to do a deal with Houston who was looking to move him.
How about Kevin Love to the Cavs – for nothing. Seriously. If Love really wants in to play with Bron and the young guns he should bide his time, not sign any extension and join the Cavs on July 1, 2015 as an UFA. Think about that. Today’s roster, minus Andy’s expiring contract (or bring him back on the cheap) plus Love. Cavs would be front-runners for the ring every season from ’16-’20.
Giving up Wiggins is definitely a tough call. I say keep him, and not just because of what he can be in 3 years. This roster is going to struggle defensively and swapping him for Love will only make the problem worse. Beyond that, we get the upside and production on a rookie contract, and then presumably on a max rookie extension. With Love, we would be limited in building the rest of the roster, and be depleted several of our best assets to trade or draft. Not to mention 2 of our 3 stars would have a concerning injury… Read more »
Jason Lloyd story:
“Former Cavaliers guard Baron Davis wants to return to NBA, says Cleveland will always be special to him.”
Baron Davis will always be special to me, too. If we trade Dion and Baron weighs less than AB and will play for free . . .
Wiggins won’t be a huge impact on the offensive side, but he does have enough skill that will keep teams honest. He can hit an open jumper and can beat ‘lesser’ defenders off the dribble. With teams putting thier best defensive players on LeBron or Kyrie or Waiters, Wiggins will be able to score. Maybe not the offensive threat as Parker, but because of the team around him, he’ll be able to make a impact. We still don’t have a stretch 4 or 5. Andy has developed a reliable jumper from the elbow, but by no means a floor spacer,… Read more »
I thought about that for 1 second yesterday. As it turns out, teams get to bid on him, and some teams want him, particularly the Heat.
let me throw this out there for chatter ( actually been thinking about it—just read on amico chatter )—-would going after boozer be a good idea —not as skilled as love ( but could fill the void this year—him and LeBron had a good year together )–just a thought—would welcome some comments
Nope. We don’t need the skills that Boozer has.
BOOZER IS A *@%!*# TRAITOR! #neverforget
The Cavs cannot bid high enough to possibly get Boozer when the bidding starts.
Looks like we’ve signed James Jones. This is another good move.
joe whatever you are drinking I want some !!
I think they should trade Wiggins to the Celtics for Tyler Zeller. Who knows how Wiggins will develop, and just remember, Zeller was really coming along last year! Just imagine what a TRUE 7-footer could do with Lebron. If we have to through in Bennet to make the trade work, I’d do it.True, it’s two first picks, but Zeller was really coming along last year!
*throw is what I meant to say. Everything else looks good.
Excellent idea After all, you can’t teach height.
I think there are benefits to building internally rather than through free agency. A team like the Spurs has players who’ve played together almost their entire pro careers and witnessing them is poetry in motion. It took LBJ and DWade a year to learn to play together; not all super-teams can be the ’08 Celtics. Considering the new coach, youth/inexperience, and the expected learning curve it will take for all parties to be on the same bball page, let’s pretend the Cavs don’t win a title this coming season — as LeBron more or less predicted — with or without… Read more »
I’m with you- I love the idea of having Love, but I don’t love financially hamstringing ourselves, sacrificing our depth, AND losing 2-3 1st round draft picks. If we are trying to build something like the Spurs, we’ll need those young players on cheap contracts that we can mold in the new “Cavs” way… Another reason to wait, if management believes that Dion+Bennett are about to have breakout years (as I do), selling low now would be a bad choice. IF Dion is about to breakout for 19-22ppg on 45% shooting, we could give even less for Love/demand more for… Read more »
Agree with you completely. If Love were a player who made sense for our team (a decent Hibbert, Marc Gasol, Ibaka) then trade whatever. Love is vastly overhyped. LeBron took utter garbage to the NBA Finals. Love has never made the playoffs. I’m not one for massively over-emphasising stats like that but when you don’t play any defence it’s hard to give over a third of your cap in my opinion.
Why would you want a big man who would clog the lane and stop our terrific slashers from getting to the rim? And Love has only played for bad teams in the West, until last year, when the twolves were one of the best teams to ever miss the playoffs (at least in terms of point differential). And look at gumdrop’s posts up above and see if you really want to spout the lazy media narrative about his “poor” defense. “Not one for massively over-emphasizing stats”- obviously, you didn’t use any actual statistics.
I can agree that whoever the Cavs play at the 5 needs to be someone who isn’t reliant on living down in the paint because we have some amazing slashers/passers at the 1-3. Honestly this team’s needs are not many, part of the reason I don’t find it necessary at all to snag Love. Maybe K Love does play underrated D according to some metrics, but he’s not helping LeBron (who this is ALL about) guard the wings. That’s the biggest difference.
Wow do you work in the media Alex – twisting quotes to prove your point. Include the final 2 words and it’s clear my point is about the stat about playoff appearances. How are ANY of the 3 players mentioned above people who clog the lane on offense? All 3 can play near the rim but also have decent mid-range games particularly Gasol and Ibaka. If you want to hamstring us financially for the next half decade go ahead – I prefer the roster depth and flexibility that the Spurs achieve each year.
LOL
wow man, lurk and read about basketball before you try to write about it
” It’s not worth trying to become the Heat. I don’t want 95% percent of our $$ tied up in three players”
Four straight Finals appearances, two wins. Sounds like it’s worth trying to me.
San Antonio Spurs: 16 consecutive seasons with 50+ wins (or equivalent in lockout ’99 season), 6 Finals appearances, 5-time NBA champions
^^THAT is what I want
We’re a bit behind on turning second round picks into Hall of Famers, but that’s still feasible. Tying up your cap like the Heat doesn’t prevent you from being the Spurs too.
Doesn’t matter where the players are drafted. The talent is already in place for a decade of dominance in CLE. Bringing in Kevin Love makes it almost unavoidable to end up like the Heat, especially considering LeBron and Kyrie are due for even BIGGER paydays in a few years
The talent is not in place, yet. Wiggins is yet to prove anything, albeit with a lot of potential. Irving has a ton of potential too, but he just turned in a third straight .125 WS/48 season. Good, but not great. We’re still hoping that they can turn in a season like Love just did. And the Heat would have been fine if Lebron stayed and Wade was 25 instead of 32. And of course, the best case scenario for Wiggins is that he becomes as good as Love is now and in a few years, we’ll have to pay… Read more »
The talent IS there, it’s just not developed yet (nor is it guaranteed to) — but if the latent potential on the Cavs roster were to be fully realized, the team would be better than it would with Kevin Love coming in at the expense of multiple guys. Wiggins wouldn’t have to get paid for 4 years, when Varejao and other vets will be coming off the books and/or retiring. We still could remain flexible and worry about paying dudes their second contracts when the time comes. Just so it’s understood, I don’t view bringing in Love as putting all… Read more »
Sure, and if the latent potential on every NBA roster were to be fully realized, we’d have a heck of a lot of 50+ win teams. You know, if that were possible.
I still don’t see this flexibility. The Cavs are going to be over the cap next summer just keeping all these guys on their rookie contracts. They’re going to be Brooklyn-level bloated if they sign them to second contracts.
We have LeBron until he retires. I’m not settling for a four year title window. There is so much more that is possible.
And we had Lebron for seven years and won nothing, primarily because we didn’t put a second star next to him. Let’s not make the same basic mistake again. I like the potential of Irving and Wiggins just as much as you do. One day I hope even just one of them is as good as Love is right now.
The Spurs had four top 30 players last year, they have always been top heavy. They just have depth because they’re smart and their owner isn’t cheap like Arison. You said what you want, now I’ll say what I want.
I want you to read some Zach Lowe article and learn basic NBA theory before you grace us with your wisdom. ^^ THAT is what I want
As glad as I am to to be condescended like everyone else on here who disagrees with you, you seem to be missing my point considering this comment has no relevancy to it. You should present your own ideas instead of just referring people to a national writer who we all read.
I’ll be content with whatever they choose…keep Air Canada or trade him for Love…obviously would rather keep him though…either way, Can’t Wait For Opening Night…
I’m not sure on the tampering rules application here but the Cavs would have to know what kind of deal Love would be getting before they try to break through with the Wolves. These star guys are favoring the short 2-3 yr deals for a better max re-up. Lebron? Cool, whatever. Love? Even with an expanding cap it might be hard to swallow two full max guys with one definitely looking for a Jordanesque send off package(you guys might know these new impending rules but I don’t). At that point the Cavs have to ask if they just give up… Read more »
I dunno, I’m 44, but there’s no way that I’d trade one title for an extended championship run. I’ve waiting my whole life for a title – I’ve been a Cavs fan since the early childhood when Bingo Smith led the team. I’m telling you, I’d much rather keep Wiggins and run with our young core than panic trade for Love and lock us into a Lebron, Love, Irving big three with only aging vets around them. I think it’s hard to carry too many max deals. The Spurs won as much because of their ‘next three’ as their ‘big… Read more »
Totally agree on everything – especially the need for a defensive Big. I think Marc Gasol would be a much better fit, and would hopefully cost less.
Agree. I was about to bring up defense. Most people commenting have never heard of it, and think the NBA is like a fantasy league. For 100 years anyone who knows basketball or football points out that “defense wins championships”. At a minimum, it is as important as offence. The current Cavs have only LeBron, Della, and Andy who are above average on D, and the rest are average, poor, or don’t try. Wiggins might be the D-MVP his rookie year. Think of how much better LeBron’s shot will be if he does not have to cover the other teams… Read more »
Dude, you don’t have a clue. First you bash people here that have a high opinion of Kevin Love comparing our evaluation of him to fantasy basketball rather than real life. Then, you proceed to say Wiggins might win the DPOY award as a rookie. Are you freaking kidding me??? Are we supposed to take you seriously with comments like that? Kevin Love is a superstar on offense, but his defense isn’t as bad as you make it out to be. He had 3.7 Defense Win Shares last season – MORE THAN ANYONE on the ENTIRE CAVS ROSTER. The same… Read more »
Raoul doesn’t even understand what you write
Hello, this is Peggy. Leave a message. BEEEEEP
#obscurereferences
#discovercommercial
#lookitup
So you’re guaranteeing an extended championship run with Wiggins? Seems a bit premature.
Steve – I’m not guaranteeing anything. I believe that Wiggins ceiling is too high tand his relative value (rookie contract and his first extension) is too great to trade away. I’m saying that if we deplete our youg core and draft picks for KLove then our window to win a championship is probably 2-4 years starting with te upsoming season. We’ll have 3 max contracts and no high draft picks so finding additional talent will be tough. On the other hand, if we keep our young core, our window may be be 5-7 years (or even longer). We almost certainly… Read more »
The max deal is irrelevant, we have no cap space next year. Please don’t tell me you’re posting on here without understanding that. You wasted way too much time talking about cap space when we will never have anything outside the MLE to spend. That’s why it’s so important to get him at $14 million, that’s Gordon Hayward money, then you can raise him with Bird Rights and it doesn’t matter you still have the full MLE to spend.
Happy – Actually, between Hayward’s non-guaranteed $10.5M and various club options, the Cavs could have cap space next year, but that’s not the point. The point is that we can have greater flexibility with multiple players and contracts vs one big contract.
Would you rather be locked into a core of Lebron/Irving/Love/mid-level guys/vet minimum deals and no draft picks, or a core of Lebron/Irving/Wiggins/Bennett/Dion/TT + draft picks?
Varejao’s contract expires so the Cavs will have a little cap space and potentially more with the maneuverability of all the youngsters contracts. Once Love was on board they would have a set roster and could only add minimum contract players like the Heat did.
If the Cavs want to keep Bennett, Thompson, and Waiters, they will almost certainly not have any cap room next year. The cap is projected to be 66.5M. Lebron costs 21.5M at the moment, but can opt out and get 35% of the cap (23.3M). Irving will cost 16.6M or 20M. Wiggins, Bennett, Thompson, Waiters, Miller will cost them 26.7M. They’ll have to eat cap holds of the minimum salary until they fill 12 roster spots (5 spots = 2.5M) 21.5+16.6+26.7+2.5=67.3M, which is just over that projected cap. The cap could be higher, but it would have to get up… Read more »
LOL
Wow man. Lurk and read about the CBA before you write about it.
Have you learned NOTHING from what has just unfolded in Miami. 3 players on non-max deals meant they had no money for virtually anything else and if they resigned everyone would have been approaching the hard cap put in for tax offenders as Lowe stated the other day in one of his articles.
But for us it will be different. 3 players on super-max contracts but we’ll surely have money left to spend ?!?
Our window with Love will be however long he, Lebron, and Irving are under contract. I have no idea how that’s four years, much less two. Our window with Wiggins opens as soon as he becomes a legit star. As we saw with Irving, that may take a bit more time than we thought. I know, all-star game mvp!1!!, but he hasn’t helped the team win games that actually count in the standings like an all-star. I think Simmons talks out of his rear way too often, and of course, those groups are way too vague. What makes a starter… Read more »
what level was love playing at when he was 19 yrs old—give wiggins 6 yrs and see where his talent is —-I can bet it will be higher than love at the same age and wiggins will be wearing a cavs uniform and receiving the torch from LeBron to carry on the cavs franchise— DO NOT TRADE WIGGINS —–if Minnesota wants to be stupid tat is there problem——-waiters / Bennett ( or t.t. ) draft pick—NO MORE THAN THAT —- I ‘LIKE ” LOVE BUT I DON’T ” LOVE ” LOVE to give away the whole future
^totally agree. Although some grammar would be nice.
Here’s the deal – if KLove was on a team that was actually good, would his numbers look the same? Would he look like a “superstar” NBA athlete? Is KLove worth a max contract? I personally believe the answer is ‘No’ to all of the above.
“If KLove was a on a team that was actually good…” The T’Wolves were good last year, they simply had the poor fortune of being in a STACKED Western Conference. Some metrics had them as the best team in NBA history to miss the playoffs. “…would his numbers look the same?” Short answer, no. He averaged 26 pts and 12.5 reb per game. The scoring would come down on a team with LeBron and Kyrie. I don’t see why the rebounding would decrease though. I’d gladly take a 20 ppg and 12 rpg PF in the frontcourt. Those numbers would… Read more »
Rather give up waiters for a smaller piece. Would love waiters for mozgov.
My preference at this point would be to not give up Wiggins. It’s not just the talent itself….it’s the fact that he can learn under Lebron for the next 6 years. You could argue there is not a better situation for Wiggins to maximize his talent in all of the NBA. But the argument of trading promise- which often goes unfullfilled- for a known commodity (a top-10 player just entering his prime) is a valid one. I agree that a Waiters/Bennett package would be optimal. But, I would consider a scenario where the Cavs do give up Wiggins for Love….but… Read more »
I couldn’t have stated my own preferences on this matter any better than that
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think Wiggins for Love is possible. We have to clear $15.7MM in cap space to get him.
Correct. Salaries wouldn’t match at all. We’d have to throw in other contracts to make it work.
Wiggins for Love straight up is possible if and only if it happens once the Haywood partial guarantee kicks in. I believe the literal cap number is 2 mil, but the hold can be worth up to 10? Meaning a sign and trade-type situation would come into play. The fact is, because of the Haywood partial guarantee, the Cavs have the ability to trade for a SUBSTANTIALLY larger contract than they could through any other channels. Essentially, Combo-ing this Haywood’s contract with Dion, etc., a year down the line remains a strong possibility. By then, Love will hold ALL the… Read more »
Thanks for sharing, Mallory. I knew about Haywood’s salary next season, but I was unaware that it was already a trade chip for us this year by being able to take back much more salary in a trade than what goes out. That’s good news!
Russ, it’s not a trade chip for us this year, just next summer.
Pretty sure that Hayward’s contract will only be a trade chip after July 1st, 2015 and Love is already a FA signing with whoever he wants. If the Cavs want to trade before then they have to match salaries using 3 out of five of the contracts of Wiggins, Bennett, TT, Waiters and Kyrie or any one of them plus Andy. Any of those combinations seem foolish to me, especially when you consider that once such a deal was made they would have no cap room to fill out their now depleted roster.
This is why the Cavs acquired Haywood.
Is KLove REALLY a top-10 player?
Yes, absolutely
Sez who? Have you checked out his teams record?
Even if he was a top 10 player, do you people understand how the salary cap works? The only way we can afford him is if KI will take a big pay cut.
Says PER, Win Shares, Win Shares per 48, and many other stats. Last time I checked Kevin Love was one player on a 12 man team. He plays a sport that requires contributions from 4 other teammates when he’s on the court. But yeah, he’s entirely responsible for the win-loss record of his team (40 wins-42 losses). As for the salary cap, that’s not entirely true. Hence one benefit of Lebron having a 1 year opt out. He opts out, AV comes off the books. You can then sign Love to a max, Lebron can be signed over the cap… Read more »
Fortunately we can analyze players with many, many methods better than team record. I don’t have time to go into all of them, but did you really think it was smart in the first place to judge Kevin Love by team record in the West when his second best teammate was 54 games of Pekovic? But since you want to go by team record, he’s the splits from 82games. He played 70% of possible minutes last season. If you pretend he played 100% of minutes, the Wolves would have had a +6.1 margin of victory. Instead they had a 2.7… Read more »
1. Yes, he’s absolutely a top 10 player. Look at his advanced metrics, and his basic per-game and per-36 stat lines. Epic. For the record, he’s 3rd in PER and 4th in Win Shares in the NBA, and posted 26.1 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 4.4 apg, shot 45%, 82% from the free throw line, and has 3-point range and average defense to complement being a top defensive and offensive rebounder, if not the best. Pointing to his team’s record is laughable. The Timberwolves are historically terrible, sans Kevin Love. With Jabari Parker this year, if Love stays in Minnesota, their wins… Read more »
By almost any measure imaginable. As rated by PER, he is #3 in the league, behind only Lebron & Durant.
I’d put him at 11, just behind Tyler Zeller.
(YES HE IS TOP-10 OPINIONS ON THIS BLOG ARE COMICAL!)
Top 25, and maybe top 20. His numbers are inflated by being on a bad team.
Nate – agreed. If KLove was a “superstar”, he would have taken his squad to the playoffs. He has been unable to do so to date.
Sure about that, Chip? Melo is a superstar; no playoffs. Wade is a superstar; but after Shaq left, no playoffs until Lebron came. Garnett is a superstar; he only made the playoffs once with Minnesota, and then won two championships in Boston with Pierce & Allen.
grover13, simply incorrect. Wade dragged the Heat to 47 wins and a playoff berth the year before Lebron came.
Also wrong about Garnett only making the playoffs once with Minny. They made the postseason a bunch just never went anywhere.
Love has been unable to do the same in an admittedly tougher conference.
I’m not opposed to Kevin Love, he’s a top 5 player. Just opposed to trading a bunch of young talent for him and paying 3 guys max money when neither of those 3 is a legit rim protector. (Lebron is, sort of)
Please name 20 NBA players better than him. Please post the list – either you will realize how vastly you are underrating Kevin Love or you will give many of us a good laugh. Either outcome sounds good to me.
How would you be able to compare how much he contributes to winning? Has he been on a winning team since middle school?
There are plenty of stats that analyze a player’s effect on Winning. Kevin Love was 3rd in the NBA last year in Win Shares and 4th in Win Shares per 48. But feel free to stick to your petty narrative that Kevin Love’s presence on a basketball court doesn’t lead to more wins. So short-sighted.
I’m starting to think considering Love as a Top 10 player (debateable) is oversimplifying the issue. How does he make the Cavs better? Definitely improves our 3 point shooting and floor spacing – that’s big. He’s a really good passer, especially for a big man – and that will play well in Blatt’s system. He is a great rebounder, but the Cavs are already pretty good in this area, so I don’t know how much he helps. His defense is pretty iffy, and he doesn’t protect the rim at all – something the Cavs REALLY need and losing Wiggins hurts… Read more »
Bennett and Waiters and picks for Love. He immediately makes us win the title this year. Plus he’s just entering what should be his prime.
Funny, people automatically assumed LBJ, DWade, and Bosh would all win a title immediately after their Big Three was formed…
And they came really really close.
We can be close this year and the next 10 if we are more careful with our $$ than the Heat
Thank goodness someone is looking at this as something more than an NBA2K game! Building a team is more than an arms race. Look around the league — the best teams are some of the ones that have played together longest. What the Heat did in free agency 4 years ago was unprecedented. You have the Spurs, Thunder and Pacers in the Conference Finals, whereas the Clippers, Rockets, Knicks, Nets all have underwhelmed and failed to reach that point. Adding Love doesn’t fix our biggest issues and prevents us from doing so. I think we’ve seen over the years that… Read more »
You answered your own question. K Love immediately, and significantly, imrpoves the Cavs 3 point shooting, floor spacing, and interior passing. He also will improve interior scoring. All of these are things this Cavs team needs. Look, determining whether to trade Wiggins (and pieces) for Love is an extraordinarily difficult decision, one I am glad I do not have to make. I can certainly see both sides of the coin. In Wiggins, the Cavs have an athletically gifted wing with all the potential in the world. A player who should be a defensive presence from day one and who is… Read more »
As the Cavs management struggles over the next few weeks to find a legitimate and affordable back up to injury-riddled Varejao . . . and then think about how they’ll only be able to bring on James Jones-types to replace Dion Waiters (Love replaces Bennett) . . . perhaps they’ll conclude that two superstars + solid players plus +assets (#1 choices) will lead to greater and longer lasting success than 3 superstars and little else. HOWEVER, several of you have convinced me about Love’s value . . . and Mallory’s comments about the cap provide a little more assureance .… Read more »
Love would give this team THREE legitimate threats to score 40 points on any given night. Two of those three are legitimate triple-double threats each night. The undervaluing of Love is comical. With that said, I am a HUGE Waiters fan and I really think Bennett is going to develop into a damn good player. Let’s not forget that Dion had better per-48 numbers than Bradley Beal and Klay Thompson post-ASB last year. Would you trade Beal + Bennett and picks for Love? I wouldn’t. Would you trade Thompson + Bennett + picks for Love? Golden State won’t. We have… Read more »
Bennett and Waiters and picks for Love is perfect.
Wiggins is so much better than people were giving him credit for pre draft. And learning from LeBron will only help He’s going to be a star.
I think the Cavs will wait them out and not have to give up Wiggy.
“Wiggins is so much better than people were giving him credit for pre draft.” Based on what, exactly? Beyond the fact that he was incredibly hyped coming into this year and a concensus top three player, he has played three summer league games against guys who are either; (1) rookies or second year players, (2) undrafted free agents, or (3) foreign/overseas players hoping for a chance to stick in the NBA. The competition is subpar to say the least. I watched all three games and found that Wiggins is as advertised. He is going to be a disruptive force defensively… Read more »
Well said, Jim.
What am I missing here? AFAIK- it is imposible for the Cavs to trade just Bennett and Dion plus all the draft picks in the world for Love. To match salaries they would have to also add either Wiggins, TT or Kyrie. Theoretically it could be done by trading away five million additional dollars in fodder contracts but that would mean an additional 4-7 players at the amounts they will be paying Delly, Harris, Jones, Miller, Powell and whoever else they add as minimum contracts. I’m sure Minny doesn’t want to deal with buying out all of those players/
Dion/Bennett + picks for Love does not work, but there doesn’t need to be an extra $5million to match salaries. Salaries only have to be within 150%. They don’t have to give up TT, Wiggins, or Kyrie to make it match. Dion/Bennett = $9.6 million, Love makes $15.7 million, so the cavs need to get to around $10.7 million in outgoing salary. Adding in one or two crap contracts (i.e. 2nd rounders) makes the money work.
They brought in Brendan Haywood(sp) for this reason. He has a fat, tantalizing, non-guaranteed contract that Minnesota can use to dump cap space and allows the money to match up with minimal wiggle.
There is a good chance that in a year Bennett + Waiters will be much more valuable than Love. Things are going great lately for the Cavs, and for some reason a lot of people want to give the good fortune to MN. Get over it! Rick Grayshock is an idiot. I am older than he is, and would much prefer a decade of contending to one maybe championship and nine years of lamenting how we blew it.
The only way Anthony Bennett and Dion Waiters are more valuable than Kevin Love is possibly if you are selling them for meat.
“Bennett and Waiters and picks for Love is perfect.”
For us. Not for Minnesota. They can do better than that.
And that also answers Amico’s question “And frankly, why should they?”
Because the likelihood of the Cavs getting Love without giving up Wiggins is almost nil.
What better offer does Minnesota have? An expensive, aging David Lee and Harrison Barnes? The Celtics offer of Sullinger and the pu pu platter of Nets picks over the next five years?
The fact remains: if Minny waits too long, they lose Love for NOTHING. They don’t have a single other offer on the table that offers them two top five picks over the last three years.
Where is the “they can do better than that” offer?
The Bulls and Celtics offers are better. The Suns and Rockets can make a better deal if they want. The inclusion of Thompson completes the deal for Golden State. The offers are out there for Minnesota to get something for Love. “They don’t have a single other offer on the table that offers them two top five picks over the last three years.” That is a selectively misleading description of our offer. Those two top five picks put up .037 and -.028 (yes, that’s negative) WS/48. Every other player with NBA experience being suggested in a deal easily tops Waiters… Read more »
I think he has shown he’s a step above everyone else. Him and Noel look like grown players already. I guess transcendent is a tad strong, although I do think he is going to come into the league and be pretty disruptive defensively.
I watched LeBron in high school for four years. Wiggins is nothing close to transcendent. I will be happy if prime Wiggins has a lefty of 16 year old LeBron.
I think Wiggins has looked VERY promising in Summer League, but considering the level of competition I don’t see how you could say he has looked transcendent already. Because of one incredible highlight dunk and some impressive blocks?
I think Wiggins has looked exactly as advertised. Freak athlete, skinny/lean frame, active & willing defender/gets his hands in lots of passing lanes, excellent help defense/highlight blocks, shaky handle, limited offense moves/does have an effective step back J, streaky shooter/unreliable from 3, content to play offense inside a system/doesn’t dominate the ball.
What Ross Gumdrop said.
Wiggins will make a defensive impact in his first year that will help win games. Won’t make an impact on offense this year at all. At all. (Good thing Bennett’s here to encourage him.)
But will provide fans and ESPN with many entertaining offensive highlights.
This is not true. He will be impactful on both ends of the court.
I think Underdog is overstating Wiggins lack of offensive game and impact this year, but not nearly as much as you are overrating his offensive impact in his rookie campaign.