The Point Four-ward: Get Those Hands Up!
2014-08-14Four points I’m thinking about the Cleveland Cavaliers…
1.) Still finding yourself on the fence about whether or not to embrace Kevin Love? Well, sipping from a frosty, ice-brewed, beachwood-aged mug of Kevin Love highlights should put some flash back in your step, mister. I’d been resisting spending too much time aboard the Love Boat this summer, but since we’re in that dangerous stretch between Summer League and Team USA games (where madness truly does lie), I thought I’d spend a minute or twenty with the Cavs presumptive 2014-15 starting power forward. And you know what? Kevin Love does all those Kevin Love things that everyone says he does. But the thing that really stuck out was how much of his 10-minutes plus of highlight footage spanning an 82-game season came on the two occasions where Love was matched up against Tristan Thompson.
I remember that Love had torched the Cavs this past season but, man, Thompson had a serious case of the lead foot blues. Just seeing those two matched up against each other should make Cavs fans happy that Love will likely be the team’s power forward very soon. But it also brings up an interesting wrinkle to the coming season: just moving Thompson to a reserve roll where he comes in and rebounds isn’t going to really move the needle for this team. What’s more, I’m not sure that Thompson finding his jumper is really the answer. David Blatt and his staff — along with Thompson — need to find ways to make him more of a disruptive player. Energy guys (if we’re to believe that’s what Thompson is) need to change something about the flow of the game with their energy. Thompson, Blatt, et al have to answer the question “rebounding and what else?” about the player or risk the very real chance that one of Rich Paul’s clients slides out of the rotation.
2.) Speaking of a players who get torched on defense, I went back and took a look at Ian Levy’s great breakdown of Love’s defensive tendencies to see if there’s any hope that Love’s ineffectiveness on the defensive end had more to do with him sulking about being on a bad team (we can work with that) than just not being able to do it (much more troubling). But based on Levy’s conclusion – that Love simply avoids contesting shots like the plague – it seems like a case of the former, not the later.
But, make no mistake, it’s a very troubling case of the former.
On the one hand, Cavs fans can argue that putting Love on a widely better team next year with a coach who preaches pesky defense and a four-time MVP who will hopefully demand a bit more defensive effort and accountability from his new teammates (even while being okay with the poor defense provided by his old teammates, like James Jones) might coax Love into raising a contesting hand every now and then. Love’s lack of aggressiveness, kept the Wolves best player (him) from dealing with foul trouble and for a team that performed so much better with him on the floor as opposed to when he sat, anything Love could do to make sure he was available to do the things he did care about (scoring and rebounding) could be excused since the Wolves, on the whole, were such a mess.
On the other hand, though, he wasn’t doing a fairly basic tenant of playing defense and his teams were losing a lot of close games down the stretch. The Wolves, one might argue, would have been less of a mess if Love, as the team’s best player and leader (de facto or otherwise), had made contesting shots of even nominal importance.
At least, it will be easy for Cavs fans to take note of if their new big man is defending any differently in the wine and gold. Hands down? Bad. Hands up? Well… it’s a start.
3.) There’s been some hand wringing among fans who have noticed, as Terry Pluto pointed out over the weekend, that the Cavs have gone from one of the youngest teams in the NBA to one of the league’s oldest. Mike Miller is 34 and has had battled injuries in the past. Jones is 33. Brendan Haywood is 34. If the team adds, as is being rumored, Ray Allen (38) and Shawn Marion (36), that is, in fact, a far cry from giving big minutes to the spry legs of Tyler Zeller (24), Andrew Wiggins (19) and Anthony Bennett (21).
But here’s why we shouldn’t be suddenly calling this team “over the hill”: its core is still very young, compared to the cores of other contending teams around the league. An Irving/James/Love foundation averages just 25.3 years old. By the start of this season that will still much younger than San Antonio’s (Tim Duncan/Tony Parker/Kawhi Leonard = 31 years old), Chicago’s (Derrick Rose/Joakim Noah/Pau Gasol = 29.6 years old) and it’s actually the exact same average as the Oklahoma City Thunder’s (Kevin Durant/Russell Westbrook/Serge Ibaka).
The Miami Heat didn’t look old because their core’s average age was passing 30. They looked old because all of their rotation players were old.
Chris Anderson was just shy of 36 during the 2014 Finals. Udonis Haslem and Rashard Lewis were both old 34s. Shane Battier was 35 and Allen was 38. The only two young guys given significant run were Mario Chalmers (28) and Norris Cole (25), but neither was relied on heavily with James and Wade being the team’s primary ball handlers.
The Cavs will be looking for significant contributions from Irving (22), Dion Waiters (22), Thompson (23) and Matthew Dellavedova (23) as well as Love (25). The team will also have rookies Joe Harris and Dwight Powell in their system.
So, yes, there will be some older guys playing minutes for the Cavs next year, some even significant minutes. But it’s unlikely Jones plays much (though I’m not ruling out Blatt finding some way to hide him on defense in order to use his very strong outside shooting), Haywood may or not play depending on his health. Miller played in all 82 games for the Memphis Grizzlies last year, but averaged only 20.8 minutes per game. Look for him to play the biggest role of all the Cavs’ new old guys (followed by Marion, should he sign) but this team still has plenty of young talent on it, it did not sacrifice all of it’s first rounders because it signed James as a free agent and, face it, getting some older veterans is what contending teams do.
4.) And speaking of young guys, the Cavs added another this week when they signed undrafted 7-0, 245 pound center, Alex Kirk.
Kirk played well(ish) for the Cavs in the Las Vegas Summer League, where he averaged 5.2 points and 3.4 rebounds in just over 15 minutes a game. Kirk isn’t particularly athletic or fast, but he’s a big body who gives the Cavs more much needed frontcourt depth. In Vegas, he flashed some ability to stretch the floor with his shooting, some nice toughness and he sports a 7’ 3.5” wingspan that helped him average 1.7 blocks per game for the University of New Mexico last year.
Kirk has a real shot of making this roster because the Cavs desperately need the things he does well (i.e. be tall/protect rim). He’ll be an end-of-the-bench guy and one who will probably be in the mix with Harris and Powell to get some run in Canton, but with few obviously better options, this is a nice value signing by GM David Griffin.
as Nate somewhat pointed out, and I’m oversimplifying cuz I know y’all know this – your minutes per game calc assumes everyone plays all 82 games and that all games require the same effort and have the same matchup needs. There will be games Miller plays 24 minutes and games he plays 6 and probably weeks at a time when he’s hurt. Delly could start some and he could get some DNP-CD’s along the way, too, as Blatt experiments. Delly could play more if KI is getting torched by the opposing point guard and having an off night offensively. Lebron… Read more »
Well said. Look at teams’ stat pages on ESPN and you usually see 12-14 guys per team playing at least 40 games a year and averaging at least 10 minutes when they’re active. Plus a bunch of other guys playing fewer games/minutes but still seeing some action. Most of those teams are using an 8-9 man rotation but it’s not the same 8 or 9 guys every night. Depth is important and you want to be able to plug in different people to do the same job. Redundancy on the bench is a good thing! If Ray Allen wants to… Read more »
Agree with Dave.
Last year, 50 players averaged 33+ mpg. The only Cavs players on the list were Kyrie at 35.2mpg and Luol Deng at 35.1 – though mainly with Chicago). Lebron was 6th in the league at 37.7 (clearly, too many) and Love was tied for 11th at 36.3. If Blatt does his job well, I’d hope that none of the Cavs average more than 35 mpg and if he’s really as good as I think he’ll be, none will average over 33mpg. None of the Spurs players averaged over 30 mpg. Meanwhile, I’m hoping that Thibs continues his habit of rrunning… Read more »
Miller should start at the two. Dion should embrace the 6th man role. It just needs to happen. I don’t like Delly with the ball in his hands. He can come in and play in lineups with Dion when Kyrie and Miller are on the bench.
I’ve hoped Dion would embrace that role since we drafted him, but I’m fine with him starting. I’m sure they can find ways to maximize his talents either way. I can’t wait to see their rotations. I could see a really solid line up with Lebron and Kyrie resting, led by Love and Dion. I can see Love starting games going to work in the post, drawing fouls and creating open three pointers for everyone else, then with the second unit move him outside with guys like Mike Miller, hopefully Marion if he comes, and open up the lane for… Read more »
I’m curious why Nate called out Cols for doing the exact same thing he does: Repeat his arguments firmly and with consistency. You interpret Cols’ disagreements as disruptive commentary. This is supposed to be a blog.
Every Nate calls out a Cols for the same three reasons:
1. Dismissive attitude
2. Redundant posting
3. Interminable listings
I was probably overly abrupt in my reaction, so I deleted my comment.
We’re all giddy about the potential starting lineup. My concern is what do you have when the the big 3 and Andy come off the floor?
Dion
Delly
TT
?
?
Even if you add Marion to that lineup – most teams are going to punish that group.
Guess what? The other team’s second string will also be in.
I doubt there will be many minutes when all of the big three are off the floor at the same time. A key value of the big three is you can rest LBJ and still have two stars on floor.
Interesting, cause Dion and Delly were one of the Cavs best two man lineups last year. https://cavstheblog.com//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////?p=25516 Also interestingly, Thompson didn’t play that well with Dion. So add Mile miller or James Johnson at the three, and a then Powell? Haywood? Man these guys are thin up front. But maybe Marion at the four, TT at the five. Suddenly that’s a team with four shooters that can push the ball, and isn’t the worst rebounding lineup ever. Dion initiates the offense, and Delly pushes the break, and Jones and Marion camp out in the corners on offense.
Are we not all thinking too hard about this?
Kyrie & Miller start.
Delly & Dion back up. (Dion steps on the floor for Miller several minutes before Delly replaces Kyrie.)
Jones is the veteran on the bench, plays when someone gets hurt, plays when a game is out of reach.
Harris plays when a game is out of reach, but is largely D-League this year.
There is no room for Ray Allen unless someone is injured.
Maybe. Miller’s impact would be much greater when LeBron is on the floor. Delly is a big plus anytime. I could imagine those two swapping out for O and D in crunch time.
How about this for the last minute of a close game, when there is a chance to substitute almost each play: LJ, KI, and DW always on the floor with MD and AV on for D, and KL and MM in for O.
Mallory and Cols714: Have either of you ever played basketball?
If so, recall how infuriating it is when someone like Delly is on the other team.
Cols is exhausting but I want the kool-aid he’s mainlining. I want to believe! I just think there will be an adjustment this season.
At this point I have exactly one concern about this team – how the heck are the Cavs going to add another big man when they’re already maxed out of roster spots? James, Kyrie, Love, TT, Andy, and Dion are all not going anywhere (that’s 6 players). Same with Miller, James Jones, and Delly (we’re up to 9!). Haywood is sticking around purely for that trade exception. That’s already 10 players! The bench can literally hold two more players, (with three reserves, who don’t dress for games). If the Cavs add Marion and Ray Allen, that caps them off. For… Read more »
I believe the team can have 13 active players under the new CBA, but correct me if I’m wrong. That would leave an extra spot for a rim protector (then Powell and Harris inactive for most games). And let’s just take a moment to recognize that you’re expressing concern over having a bench that’s TOO DEEP. That’s one of those good problems. Also, Lebron (and Marion if he comes) are likely to spend some time at the 4. While I do think the Cavs would benefit from another center, the situation isn’t as dire as it appears. Andy, Love, and… Read more »
Yeah. I don’t understand the freaking out about a center. We could use another big guy, but it’s not as dire as it seems. We have Andy (I know he’ll get injured eventually though), TT, Love, and Haywood to play PF/C. That’s good enough in today’s NBA.
JJJJJ –
You’re 100% right – I actually never realized the 13 man roster thing. Thanks for that! Not sure how I missed it.
I agree, it’s a good problem to have, but it’s a problem none the less. erratic minutes can cause players to get out of rhythm and make ’em upset. Lets hope Blatt can handle it!
Depth is a problem if it blows out your chemistry, but between LBJ and the guys he’s bringing from Miami, that’s a veteran squad that knows all about being ready to go no matter what. Outside of the core stars, pretty much anybody could end up benched indefinitely if the matchups dictated it. JJ has been out of the rotation for years and when Ray came in to back up Wade, Miller was the guy whose minutes got chopped. Didn’t change anything – the whole active roster was ready to play, no sulking or slacking off. I can’t guarantee that… Read more »
You’re nuts. Delly is the Cavs best defensive guard. Jones will barely play and Harris will spend most of his time in Canton. Jones was washed up three years ago. Cavs are making mistakes overly relying on washed up players who are LeBron’s buddies, but they are trying to establish a culture, so I see that side of it. Kirk just looked over matched in summer league, so Canton for him, too. DellY’s minutes will fall if the Cavs sign Allen, but expect Ray’s minutes to be limited. Delly will be too good to keep on the bench. Also expect… Read more »
Nope. The Cavs are doing exactly what championship teams do. They are signing veterans who can play and who know how to play in the playoffs.
The biggest reason the Cavs could possibly fail in the Finals is that this is Blatt, Irving, Waiters, Love’s first Finals. The more experienced good players like Marion, Jones, Miller, and Allen we can get the better. If it pushed down marginally talented guys like Dellavedova it’s a win-win.
James Jones was washed up three years ago. Experience isn’t going to help him play defense/hustle ball better than Dellavedova.
I like Miller, Marion, and Allen as much as the next guy, but those guys are also due to fall off a precipice at any time now at this point in their careers.
Nate – I’m not saying I WANT Delly to be benched, but how exactly do you see him getting minutes? Jones didn’t sign with the Cavs to sit on the bench – I’d be SHOCKED if he spent more time sitting than Delly does. Delly certainly can’t play when both Dion and Kyrie are on the floor, and I doubt he’ll be first off the bench when either of them sits. Lets say Miller, for all intent and purpose, is the sixth man and plays 20 minutes a game. Dion plays 32 and Kyrie play 35. You’ve basically used up… Read more »
By the way, I realize no back-up big is going to play 15 minutes – I’ve probably undersold how many minutes TT plays. Furthermore, James Jones has averaged almost 9 minutes a game over the last two seasons – 6, again, might be underselling how he fits on the roster. The only guy who I may have oversold was Miller, who saw a much-reduced role on the Heat in 2012-13. But that was on a roster where he was competing for time against a defined SG in wade and a defined SF in Lebron – Dion is much better suited… Read more »
Quick side note: I actually agree with Nate – I think the James Jones signing was a mistake – the way this team is made up right now is almost TOO deep – the only way to give all the players adequate minutes is to reduce those of the starters, but I don’t see Lebron, Kyrie, Dion, or Love dropping below 35, 33, 33, and 35 respectively. It’s just not what big name guys want. A guy like Delly makes WAY more sense for minute-grabbing than Miller and/or Allen, until the playoffs come and you want vets. For the most… Read more »
@Mallory: it’s actually okay to reduce LeBron, Kyrie, Dion, and Love’s minutes through the regular season to below your listed totals. The only reason to ramp up their minutes would be if we get locked in a neck and neck horse race down the stretch with the Bulls for the 1-seed. The core of the Spurs is older, but managing minutes is how Pop had his players so fresh going into the Finals, and not managing minutes and riding their stars like busted mules is why LeBron literally collapsed during the Finals. Granted, they rode those players so hard because… Read more »
James Jones played 20 games last year and averaged 12 minutes a game. Two years ago, when Mike Miller was around and Dwyane Wade was mostly healthy (i.e. a roster similar to what the Cavs are putting together this season), Jones played in 38 games and averaged 6 minutes per game. He’ll be 34 when the season starts. Why should he expect to play minutes now? He’s a smart guy, a professional and a great teammate. He should be an excellent presence in the locker room and at practice. He’s sure to help out when guys are banged up or… Read more »
Something tells me you looked at James Jones’ minutes averages and not how many games he actually plays in, Mallory. James Jones was signed to be an end of the bench guy. That’s what he does. Yes, he averaged 12 minutes a game, and yes his per minute numbers were decent, but he also, only played in 20 games and scored 97 total points. And the year before: 36 games for 60 total points. He’s a “leadership” vet who can come in when a guy gets hurt or in stretches of games, but he’s best in very limited minutes. Heck,… Read more »
To be clear, I’m DEFINITELY not advocating Jones get playing time – I slotted him for SIX minutes. But I just don’t see how Delly fills those six minutes unless the Cavs plan on playing Kyrie, Delly, and Dion together (which definitely won’t happen much with so many SFs on the roster). Basically, Jones will crack the rotation on nights when he’s needed, like you said. Nate, you’re confusing what you think is my opinion versus what the reality of the situation is. I’m not arguing that Delly shouldn’t receive the minutes (he should, as I said above) but simply… Read more »
Agree with Nate.
The Heat just bombed out mainly due to the best players being overplayed. Now the Cavs have some depth so they can play limited minutes like SA does, and Mallory wants to go to an 8 man rotation? That would be insane.
My prediction: DW plays more minutes, but MD starts. The one man full court press is a huge advantage, particularly if it forces long passes anywhere near LeBron.
James Jones will not get more minutes than Delly. He is a 3 pt specialist, which is a valuable asset, but Blatt fell in love with Delly in Summer League.
Agree with Nate. There is a decent chance Delly will be a starter. His plus D will lessen the minus D from KI and KL. You would want DW to be on the floor a lot when KI and/or LJ are not. The “old guy brigade” will probably see most of its minutes in specialized situations. I do agree with Mallory that there might not be room for RA. One cool thing would be if he decides to rest up for the first half of the season. About the time there is an injury, RA could come in and give… Read more »
Nate- I completely agree with the washed up vets. Miller makes some sense. But then Jones-and possibly Allen as well- become redundant, as they all offer the exact same skillset (good for team culture, can hit an open J, but too old to do anything else of consequence).
Didn’t the “make Lebron happy” approach doom the Cavs the last time around?
Yep. We don’t need a 2nd year average to below average guard in this lineup with talent we’ve assembled. Anything that pushed Dellavedova further down in the rotation means this team has gotten more and more talented.
Delly is a very valuable asset for this team. If James Jones is stealing his minutes, that isn’t a good thing.
Good stuff. A couple quibbles: 1. Do you want KL and AV playing 48 minutes each? TT is not going to slide out of the rotation. Obviously you want him to improve has game and add new dimensions, but don’t discount energy. 2. The Cavs are the ideal situation for old players who used to be real good: They have a good chance to show their best stuff in limited minutes, and are there to set a good example and prevent young players from becoming head cases, lazy, entitled, etc. 3. Some older role players are ideal for the “mostly… Read more »
I’m not discounting energy, Raoul. I’m questioning how much that is what you really get from Thompson right now. Just because he’s a good rebounder doesn’t mean he’s a guy who can hang his hat on being an “energy guy.”
My hope is that TT’s in his basement watching clips of his rookie year, playing volleyball to practice his shot blocks, and watching tape on every power forward in the league. This team NEEDS him to become a defensive presence, and not a defensive negative.
IMO, offensive rebounds are “disruptive”.
You’d think that having TT go back to contesting shots and not awaiting the rebound will be a major priority. If he can protect the rim, he and Love aren’t a bad combo for the front court at all.
Many of the folks in the Cavs community have said it’s possible that Thompson is one of those guys who doesn’t start to get it until he’s 25 or 26 (Andy didn’t either). He probably won’t follow the traditional aging curves, especially on offense with the hand switch, yadda.
He’s been playing around AV his entire career.. of course ENERGY, is going to be a thing he does well. Let’s not discount the Love/LBJ effect of expanding TT’s game potentially.
Anyone complaining about adding Kevin Love needs their head examined. Anyone complaining about adding vets like Miller, Jones and hopefully Allen and Marion need to get with it. Adding great players, especially veterans is needed to win the title. Even with a Big Three.
Who complained about Kevin Love?
Great post. I watched those same Love highlights – the dude has so many skills. Never realized how sick his post game was, or how great a passer he is. I have seen no evidence that it is a bad thing to be old. In fact, the table below is something I have seen in the past, and it shows that “old” teams are more likely to be “good” teams. If we want to win, it helps to move away from an insanely young roster, so I don’t understand the age concern thing. Also, as you note, a lot of… Read more »