Recap: Houston 105, Cleveland 93 (or “Coffee is for Closers”)
2015-01-08
Cleveland hung with the Rockets for three and a half quarters, until Cleveland’s inability score and keep the Rockets off of the offensive boards put Cleveland in a hole. Kyrie Irving was unstoppable for those three three and a half quarters, scoring 38 on a dazzling array of drives, jumpers, and unbelievable dribble moves. J.R. Smith’s debut was full of excitement, misses, and turnovers, but he wasn’t the worst. That was reserved for tonight’s officials who seemed to officiate on reputation more than actuality, and for Kevin Love’s jump shot. But that’s not why the Cavs lost. The inability to focus and effectively defend shooters were the nail in Cleveland’s coffin tonight. It’s about time Cleveland started defending the corner three. Sadly, I can’t play the video from Glengary Glenn Ross that our subtitle references because it’s a profanity laced dressing down of dilatory salesmen. But if I was coaching this team, this is the video I’d make Cleveland’s dilatory defenders watch. Always be closing (out (shooters)).
First Quarter: It was a battle of runs. Cleveland used a 13-5 stretch to start out the period, then had a five minute, five turnover scoreless stretch. It included the worst pass of the season: a Haywood missile that went 20 feet over everyone’s head and took out someone’s incisors in row D. This pass answered the question, “Why doesn’t Blatt play Haywood more?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je8q2Xl3u88
Houston went 11-0 during Cleveland’s follies, and James Harden scored or assisted on all but two of those points. The Cavs tried to get the ball to KLove on the left block, but Houston defended him well, and instead of moving or re-posting, Kevin settled for fadeaways which clanked. He was 0-5 in the period. We had our first J.R. Smith sighting. He looked quick with a solid handle, but missed two jumpers, one with horrible footwork as the shot clock was running down. Cleveland stayed close behind Kyrie’s awesomeness, a Delly trey, and a couple Delly dimes. Cleveland did a great job of reversing the ball with quick passes around the perimeter (hooray!… finally!) and the Cavs hit four threes. It looked like their multi-game dry spell from triple territory was finally over as the quarter closed to some James Jones string music, which cut it to 26-23, Houston.
Second Quarter: Josh Smith looked not-awful during his stretch from the late first into the early second. For the most part, he played like sane Josh Smith, which was good for the Rockets. Still, the Rockets looked beatable. Cleveland contained Howard, and despite some terrible foul calls, held James Harden to 2-9 shooting in the half. Kyrie started heating up and by the quarter’s end he was raining comets down from the heavens. He went 7-8 in the period, with only one of those makes coming at the basket. Patrick Beverly is one of the league’s best defensive point guards, and he was helpless to stop the man my daughter calls, “The Advertiser.” Here’s the advertiser burning a less than capable defender. Cleveland had only two turnovers in the period, and Kyrie hit a silky three to cut the deficit to 49-48 with 15 seconds left. He had 23 in the half, and summoned the divine fires of heaven each time it left his hands.
Third Quarter: Cavs came out of the locker room with some of the best third quarter energy all season. Kyrie really was really working, and Tristan Thompson, who’d been quiet in the first 24 flushed a nasty dunk, and added this wicked block. Kevin Love notched a quick six points, as Wes and flaming Uncle Drew helped Cleveland jump out to a four point lead halfway through the quarter. Most of the points were on Kyrie’s pick-and-roll offense, and even when Houston pushed him back, he just rose up and hit 27-footers. But Cleveland could not get a call, and could not keep Dwight Howard and the Houston Rockets off of the offensive boards. Houston had six of them in the last six minutes of the period. Kevin Love continued to struggle from outside, missing both his shots out of the key, but Kyrie kept the Cavs ahead with plays like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RreuJze_tuQ#t=28
Kevin Love closed strong with five points in the last 2:03, but officiating, James Harden layups, and Houston’s control of 50-50 balls kept the Cleveland lead at just 74-73.
Fourth Quarter: J.R. Smith started as the ball handler in the wing pick and roll. He sported a flashy handle, but he threw the ball away twice in the first three possessions, and got stuck on a screen. Delly thankfully took back the ball handling duties and found Tristan Thompson with this nifty pass for an and-1 layup. J.R. was quickly replaced, but playing a guy who has never played with his new teammates and doesn’t know the plays ought to be done before the fourth quarter, coach Blatt. Tristan just could not keep Dwight from grabbing every freaking rebound in sight, and then everyone else on the Rockets started grabbing O-boards. They had four in the first five minutes. Houston started taking the ball out of Kyrie’s hands, and a bad Delly turnover, a missed Kevin Love three, and two Corey Brewer threes suddenly put the Rockets up nine with six minutes left. Delly cut it back to six, but missed his next three.
Crunch Time: Jason freaking Terry tore the Cavs up (WTF?!). He scored or assisted on 11 points in the last 6:07, as Houston buried a barrage of three pointers and free throws. Analytics geeks everywhere swooned. Kevin Love and the Cavs offense went cold, missing a 16-footer, and two crucial free throws on consecutive possessions. As Tom noted in the comments, Cleveland has a terrible time defending corner threes. Needing a stop down eight with 3:14 left, Terry burned an over-collapsing defense from the left corner. A minute later Kyrie collapsed on a driving Jason Terry and James harden buried a 25-footer from the top right. Why do you collapse on Jason Terry, Mr. Irving? He’s 137 years old!? Do not fear his drive! A 12 point lead for Houston sealed the win, so naturally, Josh Smith canned an eff-you three to rub it in.
Notes:
- David Blatt frustrated me with his decision to force J.R. into the game late. He ignored a James Jones who’s been playing really well lately and was +5 for the game. The insertion was a failed experiment that cost Cleveland.
- J.R. Smith was 0-5 with two turnovers. Two of them were buzzer half-courters, and one was a shot-clock buzzer beater. He looked shifty. His handle looked nice, but the turnovers hurt.
- Josh Smith finally got Houston a win. He was 7-10 and +21 in the game. I only counted one dumb shot.
- Tristan tried his hardest against Dwight, but Howard was vintage tonight: 19 rebounds, 10 offensive. TT should have taken to face guarding on the boards. Superman was held to 17 points and Tristan went a solid 7-7 from the line, and scored 11 with six rebounds. Starting at the five and checking huge centers are not Tristan’s fortes. Mozgov will help TT immensely.
- Cleveland was outboarded 50-37. Are LeBron and Timofey on the floor yet?
- Houston gets more star calls than any team in the league, and no one gets more than Harden. The Beard exaggerates every contact more than Kristen Stewart exaggerates disaffection. Here, Harden jerks his head back like he just whiffed three month old milk, and J.R. gets whistled for a foul (hard to see on the ESPN feed). Here’s a phantom call on Mike Miller. James Harden got this gift call while posting up Delly late. Kevin Love finally got his hands up on defense and was whistled for a nothing-but-ball foul on Josh Smith. But that wasn’t the worst miss by the refs. They failed to catch a goaltend on Josh Smith late, which led to a five point swing as Kyrie Irving was late getting back and Cory Brewer hit (another) Houston three. The Fox Ohio broadcast clearly showed the ball coming off the glass. That doesn’t mention at least three missed offensive fouls on the Rockets. I’d send Alec Bladwin to their dressing room too.
- Kyrie’s 38 happened on an amazing 15-26 shooting spree. He was the best player on the floor tonight. Here’s the highlight reel. One thing I wish he would do more, is use his ability to attract defenders to set up teammates. The coaches need to put him in positions to do that when other teams are taking the ball out of his hands. Most critically, Irving’s defensive mistakes (not getting to shooters) late really hurt Cleveland. Coffee is for closers.
- Delly was fine. Not great, not bad. Nine points, five dimes, and one turnover in 35 minutes. Low usage, I know. He hit open threes and an open J. The Twitter hate he’s getting is ridiculous though.
Dion Waiters’ first game with the Thunder: four points, 1-of-9 shooting, two rebounds, and an assist in 22 minutes. His first possession: a defensive rebound into a pull-up brick with 16 on the clock. That sounds about right.- Shawn Marion can’t finish around the rim. This sequence at the beginning of the second was brutal. He finished 1-7, with this dunk as his lone redemption.
- Kevin Love was 7-19, 0-10 outside the key, and 3-6 from the charity line. To say that he’s struggling with his shot would be generous. His shooting numbers were inflated because Delly and Kyrie set him up for some easy ones. Kevin finished with 16 rebounds, which was the best part of his game tonight. He makes me sad.
- Why does he make me sad? Because ESPN was cruel, and made me watch Andrew Wiggins drop 25 on 10-16 shooting and just miss a game winning three against Phoenix. In his last seven games Drew’s averaging 21 points, shooting 50% from the field, and 46% from three. He shoots it effortlessly from all over the court. He scores using his height, athleticism, and soft touch, and he’s just scratching the surface of what he can do. Think Kevin Durant if he had a post game coming into the league and played much better defense. Think Wiggins doesn’t have a handle? Check out this highlight. David Griffin will forever be the GM who could have had LeBron and Andrew Wiggins. He’ll be the comical answer to a Trivial Pursuit question. Seeing Wiggins do this made me tweet this.
2014 will go down as the year Cleveland drafted Johnny Manziel over Derek Carr and traded Andrew Wiggins for Kevin Love.
— Nate Smith (@oldseaminer) January 8, 2015
Put me on Team Nate in the Love vs Wiggins discussion, but of course I think Nate’s exaggerating a bit for the sake of an energetic discussion. However, I think we know that one of Lebron’s “requirements” to come here was to acquire Love as a teammate; no Love = no Lebron. So the question is would we be better off with Kyrie, Wiggins, Andy, TT, AB, Zeller, Karasev, multiple assets etc. or the team we have now with much of our assets cashed in? But seeing how “soft” griff has been as a negotiator, one has to wonder if… Read more »
My issue isn’t Wiggins FOR Love. My issue is that it could have easily been Wiggins AND Love.
Amen. Waiters and Bennett and a first? Who was giving them a better deal?
Yep agree with this too. Felt like a panic move. Could have at least seen what we had in Wiggins.
Except Golden State could have easily pulled off the deal and then at this point in the season, while Love is averaging 20/10 for GS and Wiggins is going through typical rookie growing pains, everyone, including the bloggers here, would be clamoring that we should have given up Wiggins for Love and that we botched any and all hopes of winning a title in Cleveland.
Golden State wouldn’t give up Klay Thompson and definitely wouldn’t now either.
I was out of town and missed the Rockets game and the Mozgov trade. Neither outcome was a surprise, except for the fact that the Cavs used both the Memphis and OKC first rounders to pull off the Mozgov move. Seems like a lot to give up, but at least they got a solid big man. On the plus side, Griffin has apparently filled the need for a perimeter defender, a spot up shooter and a rim protecting big. On the negative side, these moves really seemed to be made in haste and with at least a small measure of… Read more »
Again, you’re making this Blatt stuff up in your mind. He’s the coach and will continue to be unless it’s obvious he’s Mike Brown II – which he isn’t.
The world we live in always needs a villain to sacrifice when things go wrong. There’s lots of good teams in the NBA. Lots of amazing talent. Maybe it’s not on the coaches or players. Maybe some other team just got it together better than we did. We don’t have to burn somebody at the stake if we don’t win it. Of course, our current culture wants us to burn somebody.
Dog, I think you’ve read my previous comments about Blatt. I’m not somebody that is either calling for his job or even believing he’ll get fired. What I’m saying is that, regardless of what the Cavs brass feels about Blatt, the external pressure from fans and media will be magnified on him now that it’s percieved that the Cavs have all the pieces to succeed.
Personally, I think Blatt is a fine coach who has the potential to be a great coach. But he unfortunately now finds himself in an even tougher position potentially.
Why is he necessarily in a tougher place? What he’s in now is a clearer place, which ok, maybe means fewer outlets to allocate blame, less margin for error. But unless the stated faults of the team, such as ‘lack of size and rim protection’ and ‘perimeter defense’ were really just cover-ups for his own coaching deficiencies, Griffin supplying him with these purported solutions to his/the team’s problems should only help him. If they don’t help, it will either be because they weren’t very good solutions, (i.e. it turns out that JR is a whackjob, Shumpert can’t get over his… Read more »
What I mean is, I think the onus you mention is more like, look Blatt, (Griffin speaking) its been hard to coach this team because it isn’t complete, you can’t get the job done because you don’t have a full toolkit. You’re missing your hammer there, a socket wrench, and a screwdriver and you’ve been trying to get by without them. Here are the tools you’re missing, this should make your job easier. Does this mean our expectations are higher for you now? Sure, but only insofar as we gave you what you needed, and pending the proper functioning of… Read more »
Which is exactly why I put the word “potentially” into my analysis. I would imagine that Blatt is happy that he has more bullets in his gun so to speak. I’m just saying there are now fewer excuses to be had if it doesn’t start to work better now going forward.
Chuck says the Cavs are relevant again: @NBAcom: Charles Barkley shares his thoughts on this week’s 3-team trade on @NBAonTNT:
WATCH » http://t.co/wLqeoryT02 http://t.co/nzCE4HhkXv
Hindsight is 20/20 but every GM in the league would have made the Love/Wiggins trade if they had been in Griffin’s shoes even if Gilbert and LBJ hadn’t ordered it. Of course there is the possibility it would end up being better for the Wolves than the Cavs that’s why people make trades sometimes. It is for some other purpose than altruism. It’s fine to feel seller’s remorse but I don’t think it is fair to ignore the fact that we are just living with the consequences of a decision that had to be made. The Howard/Nash trades have turned… Read more »
Disagree. At least half the the commentators panned the Howard/Nash trades as soon as they happened. Including me. That one is obvious. As for Love/Wiggins, I suspect most GM’s thought the Cavs paid too much. Love was in his last year and had made it clear he would not resign. The T-Wolves would get NOTHING at the end of the year, and not nearly as much at the trade deadline. At a minimum, the draft pick should have went the other way. All this was hotly debated in CtB at the time. Check the archives. You will find Raoul saying… Read more »
Sorry, I generally take my basketball analysis from professional writers, not “Raoul” so I will not cross-check the opinions of Bill Simmons, Chad Ford, Kevin Pelton, Marc Stein, Michael Wilbon, Chuck Klosterman, JA Adande, John Hollinger, Zach Lowe, Zach Harper, Kevin Arnovitz and Chris Palmer on these trades against”Raoul’s” posts on CtB threads. I take “Raoul’s” word that “Raoul” is a prescient sage. Here is Pelton’s nuanced take on the Love-Wiggins trade, reflecting a widely held view (other than, I acknowledge, by “Raoul” whose opinion obviously carries the same weight as ESPN’s top advanced metrics guy). “The history of trades… Read more »
“Based on his translated college stats, Wiggins doesn’t figure to be an immediate help on offense”
Great point, Mac. Pundits ARE idiots.
Why bother commenting when there are other professional writers who are paid to share similar opinions? Because they are wrong equally as often as any casual fan.
Mainstream sports journalism = 100% speculation. You can throw endless predictions against a wall and some of them are bound to stick. Besides, many national writers have less of a background in basketball than many of the commenters on here. Nomad coaches hoops, for Heaven’s sake.
Seriously, you don’t know why Dellavedova is trashed on Twitter? He tries very hard, but he is useless on defense – almost like he is not there vs elite players and he has to be the worst finisher around the rim in the NBA, which means that defenders don’t have to respect his drives. He lost he Philly game. I think it is more of a statement about the quality of the team. He is not someone who should be playing for an elite team. Blatt has him out there because Dellavedova probably reminds him of what he was like… Read more »
What are you talking about? Delly is a solid defender. What do you expect from an undrafted player? He plays solid defense, can run the point and passes fairly well. The only reason he’s getting so much run lately is because this team is missin 3 starters and the bench blows. Delly isn’t a finisher, he’s a glue guy and the type of player every elite team should have. He’s startin because Blatt doesn’t really have a choice. Ideally he should be a third guard. Delly shouldn’t be getting any hate on Twitter. He certainly messed up that Philly game… Read more »
Delly is also a solid rebounder for a guard.
You are right Marc, why play Delly instead of Oscar Robinson or Magic Johnson? The coach is an idiot!
Delly’s strength is his physical play. Now that teams expect it, they’re better prepared to deal with him. He used to catch opponents off guard with his Aussie rules football-like play. Now bigger players go right at him…he’s still a pretty small dude. He’s still a nice player to have though.
thank you arch for that info—I knew I saw/ heard that somewhere —–I don’t care WHAT LEAGUE YOU ARE PLAYUING IN —-29 REBOUNDS IS IMPRESSIVE —- while we are all ” speculating ” here —why not go as far back to the draft—we should have drafted EMBIID —-sit him out a yr—compete this year with present roster and come back next year with our SUPER RIM PROTECTOR AND INSIDE PRESENCE —–ALL SPECULATION which is what all you WIGGINS fans are doing —live in the present ENJOY / APPLAUD what LOVE does for you and hope that he wants to stay… Read more »
Thanks Nomad. Yes, we should have drafted Embiid. But with Lebron coming, we needed somebody that could produce now.
I like Wiggins and I’m glad he’s doing well. Reports about lacking a handle, being an ordinary shooter, being passive or too nice led to enough question about him that trading him for Love was more than reasonable at the time. We forget about those things now. We forget that, on occasion, the first pick in the drafts busts. I think the one before Wiggins busted because he’s too passive.
I wish the Cavs had been in a position where they could afford the risk associated with taking Embiid. Before his foot injury, there was zero question who should be the #1 pick. If his foot is fine, he’s going to be a monster.
Last year on April 10th Mosgov had 29 rebounds, 3 reb, 3 blocks, 3 assists, and 23 points against GS http://espn.go.com/nba/gamecast?gameId=400490048&version=mobile#boxscore&src=desktop
Kevin Love is the most overrated player in the NBA. Probably one of the worst defensive PFs in the NBA. Unless he is God on the offensive end, which he is definitely not, he is a net negative. Meaning he hurts your team more than he helps it. Just look at how many times he’s gotten schooled by big men inside over and over. Wiggins is 19 freaking years old and already a stud. Imagine what he’ll be like in a couple of years? And he plays solid defense, unlike most of this Cavs team. You cannot win championships with… Read more »
Typical baby attitude by a Cleveland fan. I hope you’re eating your words when Kevin Love is dropping 25/15 in the playoffs for us.
If he gives up 12 points a piece to 3 scrub opposing bigs, what does it matter. Love can make a bum like Kevin Seraphin look like Karl freakin Malone. 25/15 on a playoff team with a healthy Bron and Kyrie? Ludicrous.
I’m counseling myself, not you guys, to be patient. The roster shuffle sets back the “time-to-gel” a bit. And, obviously, the health issues weigh in too. No use crying over spilt milk. Love is (somewhat) a unique specimen–who lives and dies on his ability to effectively oscillate between the post and outside the arc. He’s seemed the least integrated into the work-in-progress that is Blatt’s offensive philosophy. He’ll be fine. (Wiggins was spotted to be a beast years ago. No surprise.) This week the team has gotten longer, a bit more experienced, and much more pesky on defense, especially on… Read more »
Nate, you’re normally the guy I agree with most, but you’re completely losing it. You’ve cherry picked an incredibly small sample size and are using that as justification that Andrew Wiggins is amazing and a better NBA player than Kevin Love, which is beyond laughable. I could easily look back through the past decade of NBA history and cherry pick small sample sizes and make outlandish claims about certain young players being much better than they truly were (ummmm how often did we try to do that with Dion?). I loved Wiggins coming out of college and was thrilled to… Read more »
YES times 1 million
Give this man a blog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice Tim.
I absolutely can look at a 6-7 game stretch and definitively make a statement. It may be reputationally reckless, but that’s what I’m doing. I’ll live or die by my statements. What’s the point of writing a blog, if you’re just going to wait till everyone else says something to say it yourself? If I’m wrong, you’ve my permission to rake me over the coals for it. So here, let me double down for you. I’m saying: I watched the games, and barring injury, Andrew Wiggins is going to be something really special, and it’s going to go down as… Read more »
Oh trust me, I’ve been watching these same Wiggins games too and felt that pit in the bottom of my stomach after each electric play. Hell, I’ve even had the same conversations with friends about whether or not I would undo that trade if given the option. The one thing to remember though is that this team is putting up borderline historic numbers offensively when LeBron, Kyrie, and Love are on the floor. But as you mentioned, Wiggins athleticism and effort on the defensive end are sorely missed. Bottom line, we can only sit back and wait to see how… Read more »
Waiter’s rookie season: November: 15/2/3 December: 11/3/4 January: 15/2/3 Wiggins’ rookie season: November: 12/4/1 December: 15/4/2 January: (4 game sample size) 23/6/3 Almost identical so far, early in his career. I’m not at all saying that Andrew Wiggins isn’t better than Dion Waiters – I think that’s laughable – but it’s even more laughable that people are up in arms that we made a bad trade because Wiggins has been good in 4 games in January. It’s beyond comprehension. Kevin Love’s numbers over the years don’t even need to be recited. He’s been a superstar. Will he ever post a… Read more »
This is my way of agreeing with Tim, by the way.
Wow. Dion’s numbers haven’t really changed in 2.5 seasons, while Wiggins is steadily improving while being a FAR better defender and teammate from day 1. Thanks for posting that.
Not to mention, Wiggins was supposed to take years to figure things out offensively, while Waiters was drafted specifically for his scoring.
And your points about how the Cavs are misusing Love are right on. I’m baffled as to why he and LeBron and Andy never get the ball at the high post/elbow. They’re all great from that position.
And I agree that Andrew is not the end-all-be-all of defense right now. He certainly is more serviceable than Mike Miller, and Kevin “gator arms” Love, though, and Better than ‘Bron and Durant were as rookies.
Do you believe they’ll figure that out, though? It’s hard for me to believe otherwise. David Blatt is a good coach. LeBron James understands basketball, as does Kevin Love.
They are going to figure out how to get Love more involved on offense. They just have to.
If they don’t, it’s on coaching and LeBron James, not Kevin Love. Although, maybe Love needs to assert himself more and start clamoring for the ball and yelling at Blatt?
” and Better than ‘Bron and Durant were as rookies”
WAIT, what?!
Ummm…lets wait until the season finishes but c’mon.
At defense? Yes.
And it’s not close. LeBron didn’t bother with defense as a rookie. It wasn’t until Mike Brown arrived that he started to care about that end of the floor.
Maybe the trade for Love was a net negative for the Cavs, maybe a net positive, but I agree that Wiggins raw defensive talents would be really valuable to the Cavs right now.
I thought you meant overall as players…
I thought Delly did a pretty nice job disrupting The Beard for most of the game. He ended up at 0 +/-.
For sure Love is in a shooting slump, and I gotta believe he will come out of it, eventually, especially once we get a legit center to team with on the defensive end.
On JR – it’s easy to forget, but he’s significantly taller/longer than Dion. His style of play is a much better fit for the 6th man role. He is a crafty ball handler and passer, and a really pesky rebounder/defender for his position. Not super consistent, but that’s why he comes off the bench. He will win multiple games for this team. He’s exactly the kind of microwave guy that a contender has to have in the playoffs, and he really likes doling out dimes. Also, Lebron commands a totally different level of respect/camaraderie/cooperation as a star teammate than anyone… Read more »
Yeah, really hoping the change of scenery is a positive catalyst, and that his foot can stay healthy. J.R. is one of the NBA’s most unguardable players when he’s hot.
Roger that, on all points.
sorry about that matt ( I get carried away at times —that is my Christmas ales influencing my CAPS )—correct me if I am wrong the way I read the trading of the 2 1st round draft picks—they were somewhat protected the next couple of years but also if they were not used in a certain time frame they became 2nd round picks–also we did receive a 2nd round pick from Denver which might be pretty close to a 1st round pick from okc / Memphis—might be wrong in my thinking if so someone please correct me
no problem. i read the jason lloyd piece that seemed to indicate they might be middle 1st sooner rather than the later when they convert to 2nd’s. now if marc gasol leaves, that will be a great haul for the nuggets. i still think it had to be done. looks as if our assistant gm (lbj) might have backed our real GM into a tough spot.
This Wiggins over Love talk is INSANE. I don’t even know what it’s based on… Wiggins last 2 games? Love’s 3 quarters of getting physically assaulted by the Rockets front line last night? This is from a piece on Love by Zach Lowe, from March of last year: He is an offense unto himself — a 3-point bombing machine who warps entire defenses Dirk Nowitzki–style, dominates the glass, passes well, and has developed a strong post game that draws regular double-teams. He’d have made the playoffs by now had the Wolves not whiffed on so many draft picks and free-agency… Read more »
Go watch some game film of Wiggins’ last seven games and get back to me. As we saw in the last Finals, things change in an instant in the NBA, and things have changed. The NBA is about scoring easy baskets. Wiggins is scoring effortlessly, like LeBron and Durant when they were his age, and he’s turning into a better shooter, with a better post game and defense then they had at that age. Oh, and the Shumpert line is comical.
Dude, I have league pass, he’s had some nice games. So have tons of guys. If a 10 game sample size defined a player’s value, Rudy Fernandez would be a max player in the league. It’s been a tough stretch for the Cavs, and Wiggins has had alot of shots falling, no argument. That shouldn’t be enough to make you regret a great acquisition. The Shumpert line is based on the role that he will play, vs. what Wiggins is as a player. He would not be the starting, defense-first 2 guard, which is exactly what Kyrie needs next to… Read more »
OK, except for the line “he would not be the starting, defense-first 2 guard, which is exactly what Kyrie needs next to him.” Like wouldn’t Wiggins be EXACTLY that? Except with the ability to finish dunks and lobs and hit open threes?
If that’s what you think Wiggins is, then why would you ever keep him over getting Love? I thought you were saying he was a superstar wing in the making that made you regret trading him. If he’s just a defense-first 2 guard to support Kyrie’s weaknesses, then it’s even more of a no-brainer to trade him and a busted pick for Love. You can pick up defense-first 2 guards all over the place. NY basically gave us Shump to take JR off their hands.
That’s why I said Shump would be more valuable on this team. The Cavs as constructed don’t have the time or the personnel to groom a superstar wing in the making. They need pieces that fit around their offensive juggernaut of a core. Wiggins had to be let go to create that core, it’s pieces like Shump and Mozgov that will fill in the cracks.
My point being that he can be that defense first 2 guard while he’s being groomed. But it’s a chicken and egg scenario with ‘Drew I suppose. I’ve liked Shump since before he was drafted, so I’m hoping he can stay healthy too. A Lou Williams like post ACL resurgence would be gravy.
I like your “chicken/egg” metaphor – to run with it, I am convinced the Cavs are in a situation – short term contention in a rapidly improving conference (at least at the top) – where they have to turn all their eggs into legit chickens as fast as possible. Even if that egg might hatch into an ultron-rooster someday.
One comment for you Nate- You noted JR Smith’s pedestrian shooting and stats. You also noted in the second quarter that Cavs were uncharacteristicly effective in moving the ball quickly around the arc. I noticed that myself (a little later than you did) in the third quarter. As curious as you were as to “why now?” I started focusing on who was initiating the quick passing- it was none other than JR Smith. Could it be that one of the leagues most reputed selfish gunners could actually inject some methodical team basketball into Cleveland? (Nah- once Lebron comes back, we’ll… Read more »
Yeah, he looked good except for the actual shooting and passing in the pick-and-roll. People underestimate his shiftiness and athleticism. Those were never his problem. I’m hoping the change of scenery is great for him.
I posted a long comment recently outlining my skepticism on the Dion for Smith/Shumpert trade. With that out of the way, I find myself quite excited about JR. I was at last night’s game in some great seats, so I had a nice view of everything that went down. JR had the best looking 0-for debut I’ve ever seen. He moved the ball well, put the ball on the ground and maneuvered around the defense as necessary, and took a few fearless shots. You could tell the defense respected him because he constantly created action wherever he moved on the… Read more »
“butt pats” ? LoL sorry had to… Anyways , that’s the way they should be. Both JR and Dion had that same look we have seen before in our lives. They had the new kid @ new school look. Delly in particular did a good job welcoming JR on court and encouraging him. And we knew of course he would! I still remember Deng last Feb. expressing the sting of getting traded. Jr SMith felt some of that too when he said he would really miss playing along side his best friend , Carmelo.
Stats aside, cwzagger, I was impressed with JR last night. His two turnovers were actually nifty passes where he made a move which caused the defense to adjust and a Cav cut down the lane. There just wasn’t enough space to get it through.
I think he alone is going to give us more than Dion did. Just stay out of trouble, dude.
THANK YOU DAVE R FOR POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS—LOVE DOES NOT INTEND TO GO ANY WHERE THIS OFF SEASON–9 THE TEAM AS ASSMBLED AT PRESENT IS HIS BEST CHANCE TO COMPETE ) AS LONG AS WE DON’T ” SO CALLED ” RUN HIM OUT OF TOWN WITH THE CONTINUOUS NEGATIVE BLOBS / AND PARTIAL COMPARISONS TO WIGGINS ( OH YEAH WIGGINS HAD 7 T.O’S AND 5 FOULS LAST NIGHT )—-EVEN LAST NIGHT 17 PTS / 16 REB’S ON A SOMEWHAT DEPLETED ROSTER AND AGAINST A PRETTY GOOD TEAM IS NOT TOO SHABBY
i really enjoy your comments but the all caps is painful on my eyes. when i read it i think of “screaming” a smith from espn.
agreed, the all caps and no punctuation make it really hard to read
Andrew Wiggins (rookie year) is putting up nearly identical numbers to Dion Waiters (rookie year) – but in 4 more minutes per game – yet people are actually saying he’s better than Kevin Love. And not just commenters, but the actual contributor(s) of this website.
Joke.
Yep. It’s crazy but it won’t stop until Lebron comes back and this teams starts winning again. Going to be a tough week.
Look past the numbers at his defense and flashes of scoring at will. You can see where is trajectory is heading – there is a reason he was the highest touted prospect since LBJ.
He may not compare to Kevin Love right now but be careful not to blink.
There is no “he may not.” He doesn’t. Period. Not even in the same stratosphere. Kevin Love might be struggling, but EVERYONE is struggling. LeBron James wasn’t playing defense before his injuries, either. Let’s not pretend Love isn’t a 20/10 guy on a regular basis, with an incredibly high basketball IQ, and great passing big man, simply because the Cavs, AS A TEAM, are struggling a lot this year. Kevin Love is arguably a top 10 player in the NBA. Sure, his defense isn’t very good, but he has plenty of time to improve. He’ll never be a defensive stopper,… Read more »
“Kevin Love might be struggling” – yes he is, and he’s not playing like even a top-25 player “Let’s not pretend Love isn’t a 20/10 guy on a regular basis” – but he hasn’t been; besides, it’s not his role on the Cavs to obtain an arbitrary statistic every night, not as a big man who’s shooting below .500 “His defense isn’t very good, but he has plenty of time to improve” – waiting for this to happen seven years and counting… Is defense half of basketball? Yes. Is Wiggins a better defender than Love at this point? Yes. So,… Read more »
Wow with the Wiggins talk on a bad Love night. Almost like Love didn’t put up a 28-19 and 30-10 the last couple games. Look Wiggins took 16, 18, 15, 22 shots the last 4 games and avg’ing 40 min. He’s running around doing what he wants on Minny just like Love used too. He isn’t getting those shots or minutes on the Cavs. Blatt would be bringing him off the bench or rotating him through.
Yep. It’s insane and needs to stop. This Cavs team just played maybe the best team in the West with a bunch of new players who haven’t even suited up and were missing their best player who also happens to be maybe the best player in the NBA. Griffin has put together a nice mix of youth with Kyrie, Love, Shump, TT being 25 or younger. Young veterans in LeBron,, Mozgov, and Smith, and some veteran bench guys. They also have the benifit that most of these guys, certainly the important ones, will be back for next year and probably… Read more »
The crybaby bloggers will be right back on the Kevin Love bandwagon once Cleveland gets healthy and gels. Until then, let the little girls clamor for Andrew Wiggins over a top 5-10 player in the NBA.
It’s laughable.
Ranking Kevin Love as a top 10 player is laughable.
Here are seven better players at his own position: Anthony Davis, Tim Duncan, Blake Griffin, LaMarcus Aldridge, Dirk Nowitski, Chris Bosh, Zach Randolph.
What’s laughable is that in less than a half season, bloggers go from mirroring the belief of most analysts that he has been a top 10 player in the NBA for the past 2-3 seasons, to now he’s worse than a rookie putting up Dion Waiters rookie numbers.
Zach Randolph is not better. Chris Bosh is not better. The rest of those guys are either better or there is an argument to be made, but your list is a joke when you include the other guys on it. Just laughable.
All seven of those players have played at a higher level than Love all season. Excluding Davis, they all have played in bigger scale games in the playoffs and excluding Bosh and Davis are all currently leading better teams than Love. It’s not laughable, it’s fact. I never considered Love a top-10 player. Only media hype and box scores rank Love that high. Where is this elite post game I have heard rumors of? Where are the full court outlet passes? Where is the 3 point shooting? Why doesn’t he put his arms up on defense? At least he is… Read more »
Best team in the west? You need to watch the Warriors.
agree warriors are impressive. to think at one time they were angling for blatt. i bet he feels a bit of remorse over taking the cavs now. i could be way off in my speculation though. clippers and memphis as well as portland and dallas or spurs are all loaded. the best in the west might rotate a bit until the playoffs.
I feel like that goaltend by Smith should be something that is reviewable, since they have this huge man cave in NY that reviews questionable plays. If they can change a 3 to a 2 then they certainly can check out a goaltend at the break. Awful officiating.
Should we really be talking about Love/Wiggins after we just acquired three players and after this game? Please! I won’t be able to take thread after thread of this debate. It is what it is. The hypocrisy! There were 2-4 people here that wanted to keep Wiggins and THEY WERE RIDICULED! (Unfortunately one was Nate – so we’ll have to hear about it ad nauseum. I was another, but fully understand the move and won’t complain . . . much.) The rest of you are trashing yourselves when you trash Griffin. I’m fine with Love. On certain plays he’s soft,… Read more »
This, he shot really badly but the Rockets have tough, long defenders who make it hard around the rim, and he still fought them to the tune of 16 boards. He also took a bunch of charges and tries hard to be disruptive on entry passes.
It took Wiggins three months to do anything under zero scrutiny, if he was still with us there would have been 20 articles about his softness / weakness, and Windy would be reporting that sources say LeBron hates him. He would not be as productive with that scrutiny.
I agree with all of the above. Attention from the opponents is huge, he’ll even when we played the wolves we let Andrew do whatever, but when teams play us they bring it, and when lebrons out who is gets the majority of the focus? Defense is not why he was grabbed it was offense and boards. So far huge success. Give him a center and look out!
The majority on CtB were strongly against trading Wiggins. Me in particular. That said, it will be a while before we see if it was a reasonable trade.
The recent trades are Shump and JR for nothing but salary relief, and Dion + a #1 for a big slow Russian. Will he be better than Zeller was?
I am still hoping for the best, and it might well come, but the chances of disaster are looking more ominous all the time.
Interesting Zeller / Mozgov comparison.
Mozgov is definitely more physical, tougher, and active on defense (and offense). Zeller’s shooting range is much better. I haven’t found a highlight of Mozgov hitting a 10 footer yet. But I have seen that he’s scored 20+ points on a few occasions. Zeller had a lot of potential to be a pick and pop post. I always felt he could develop into a “Z” type player . . . but always wanted my team to have an intimidator in the middle.
Fans are weird. They HAVE to just HAVE to HATE on someone especially Dion is gone. Somebody has to fill that void and it’s going to be Delly now. So get ready..
Eh. I’m excited that we have Kyrie, Lebron, Love, Shumpert, Andy, Mozgov JR, and probably TT for the next few years. I don’t think a depleted Cavs team losing at home to maybe the best team in the West means much right now.
This Cavs team is building something sustainable for the next few years. They will get it figured out before the playoffs.
Unless Love walks in the offseason. Then that would have been a one year rental for Wiggins.
There won’t be a better $ situation or basketball situation for Love in ’15-16 than what we have. He can walk but it would be silly.
Even if Love doesn’t walk, Wiggins is 19 and would make the Cavs even more sustainable for the future as Lebron declines.
Love is 25. He’s not old. He’s better and will be better for the next few years.
Wiggins is six years younger, on a rookie contract, and an elite defender in his rookie season. His presence would have given the Cavs a more sustainable future.
A much less sustainable present. If you want to win over the next 5 years you get Love. He may in 5 years be better than Love, but I doubt it. Love is on pace to be a HOF.
Whoa, slow your role there! Love, despite the occasional monster box score, is far far away from any HOF talk… Not even a top 5 PF
Out of curiosity, if we were to substitute Love’s max ne contract for next year for Wiggin’s rookie number and still have TT’s new contract, Varejao’s extension, Irving’s extension and LeBron’s new contract, does that help us out at all in terms of being below the cap and signing a good player?
There’s almost zero chance of Love walking away. So that’s our team for the next couple of years at least. I think the future is very bright. None of those guys are old. None of those guys except for Andy are injury prone.
Griffin has built something that should last a bit.
Kyrie, and Shump are injury prone.
I’m excited to at least get the Moscow Mule on this floor this Friday.
Me too.
adam I agree if love does leave –it would be a terrible trade—but I wish we would quit talking / speculating on it–the more we discuss in those terms–the more we create it to happen—- SELF FULFULLED PHROPHECY—- just live in the present and let”s see what develops
I agree nomad, let’s stop the madness. Last nights numbers do not seem like the norm for Love and Wiggins for that matter. it seems like even when he posts numbers like 30pts and 19 rebounds some overlook that to point out how bad somebody else was on the team. This no matter how each night goes is a new team across the board, really only 5 guys remain from last year who played together, one of those is hurt and done for year and we traded one other. And then you add the all new coaching staff. Slightly unfair… Read more »
The one thing most supporters of the Wiggins-Love trade claimed is that Love would help the team win more now. I am not so sure that is the case. An athletic 2-guard who can score is sorely needed on this team. Especially given his cost and the fact that the Cavs would control him for the foreseeable future.
If Kevin Love leaves this offseason this will go down as one of the worst trades in NBA history.
Wiggins will be better than Love by the end of the year. He might be better right now.
This is nutso. Come on Nate.
Still think Love is better than Wiggins right now and probably for a couple more years. Hopefully by adding Mosgov it will help Loves game so he’s not abused as much in the post.
That being said, Loves production has dropped significantly from last year. I think he had a PER of 27 last year, and now he’s down to 19.
Did you watch Wiggins? He’s already a better shooter, finisher, defender, ball handler than Love, in 6 months as a pro. He blew me away last night. Scores effortlessly now.
I’m not ready to say Wiggins is better than Love right now, but I think he will be in short order. Love has a huge, gaping hole in his game: defense. He is also quite possibly the softest big I have ever seen. His attempt to take charges is almost comical.
Regardless, it is water under the bridge now. Cavs just need to hope Love’s offense improves (and it should) to make up for his deficiencies on the other end.
Nate, I love ya buddy, but there is no way Wiggins is better than Love. Consider this: Wiggins has zero pressure right now – he’s playing on a bad team, with no ball-sharing issues, and a coach who has been in the NBA for years. Love is playing on a new team, where there have already been issues getting everyone the touches they need in the correct places. He’s playing with two other all stars who feel their needs should come first, and he’s had to completely change his game according to Blatt’s positioning of him on the floor. The… Read more »
Mallory: Love defenders have excuses. Wiggins defenders have highlights and box scores. Part of what I’m saying is that Wiggins is going to be that freaking good — so good that Love at his best might never be better, especially when you calculate their impact on defense. When Wiggins drops a 40-bomb in the next month, don’t say I didn’t warn you.
Give me a break, Nate. You’re high.
On coffee.
I didn’t see the entire game so I guess I missed all the good parts but there definitely was a stretch in the 3rd quarter that was very rough for Wiggins, multiple turnovers on lost dribbles.
Completely agree Nate. The Delly Twitter hate and media focus has been ridiculous. He’s not the reason they lost. How about Kevin Love playing better since he’s part of the big three?
If Love leaves this summer…the Wiggins trade will be soooooooooooooooo much worse than it already is.
I know where you guys are coming from—I like wiggins too / wish we could have kept him —but I do believe love just recently came close to having games where he was almost 3o pts / 20 reb’s—–still believe when we get everyone healthy—love will perform at even a higher level
jeezuz, Wiggins looks so good the last couple weeks. 20+ pts in the last 7/8 games, plus very efficient shooting. So frustrating. Two # 1 picks in a row are such an incredible lucky gift, and we took Bennett (failed pick, now gone) and traded Wiggins. $#%$
It’s pretty clear why they struggled, they are missing a ton of guys, tall guys. They played tough for 3 quarters and didn’t have the gas to beat a rested Harden and Co. The real gamble was Blatt putting a lineup consisting of no Love/KI in a stretch where the Rockets surged back to take the lead for good. But he wasn’t going to play those guys 48 minutes. Josh Smith played his best game of the year and the Cavs happened to catch it. This team will look different when Lebron and Mozgov hit the floor. Shumpert too. Yep… Read more »