The Point Four-ward: Empty the Bench
2015-02-25First off, if you haven’t read Ben’s excellent recap of the Cavs win in Detroit last night, please do yourself that favor. Then, it’s onto—
Four points I’m thinking about the Cleveland Cavaliers…
1.) On a recent Cavs telecast, I heard something that gave me pause. It concerned the overall league ranking for the Cavs bench. Anyone want to guess what it was?
Try 30th overall. That’s right, the Cavs bench is ranked dead last in the league averaging just 23.6 points per game according to hoopsstats.com. That is not something that inspires much confidence when talking about a team whose recent stretch of torrid play has vaulted it back in the thick of the championship contender conversation.
But it didn’t seem quite right to me, either. I mean, I know the Cavs bench doesn’t feature a big time scorer like a Jamal Crawford (or, for that matter, even a Dion Waiters… anymore) and I know they rarely push whatever lead is handed to them when the starters sit out the fourth quarter — which the starters have been doing with semi-regularity recently. Basically, I reasoned, the bench couldn’t possibly be that bad (from a league-wide ranking perspective, anyway) simply by virtue of how much they’ve played.
2.) Thankfully, I was right. In the last 10 games, the Cavs bench has been a solid, unexciting — but much more acceptable — middle of the pack. While only upping their scorting output by a point and a half (25.1), Hoopsstats.com rates the Cavs bench as the 15th ranked reserve unit in the league. Remember the random opposing bench player who would go off on the Cavs almost every night in the first few months of the season? That was a large contributor to the team’s -11.2 efficiency differential between its bench mob and the opponents’. Now, that difference in efficiency is down to -2.8. Big difference.
The bench is not a strength but the rotation is strong and that has been the difference for the February-and-beyond Cavs.
Welcome to average, Cavs bench. It sure looks good on you.
3.) Speaking of the bench, new Cavs back-up center Kendrick Perkins had this to say about his perception around the league:
“I know a lot of teams don’t like me, but that’s fine. I’m a good guy if I’m on your team. Other than that, that’s fine. I feel like if another team don’t like me, then I done my job for the night.”
Objectively, signing Perkins was a no-brainer for the Cavs. The size in the team’s regular rotation drops off precipitously after Timofey Mozgov and Kevin Love and, after news that Larry Sanders “probably won’t play” in the NBA this season following his buy-out by the Bucks, Perkins was the best big, the best fit, etc., etc., etc.
Still, any Cavs fan who remembers those Cavs/Celtics games from 2008-2010 knows exactly what Perkins is talking about. I know Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett may have hit more actual daggers against the Cavs back then, but it’s possible — it’s true for me, anyway — that Perkins is the biggest Cavs villain from the original LeBron run still lacing them up (with obvious apologies to Hedo Turkoglu of the Los Angeles Clippers who, we’ll say, is more of a slip-on guy at this stage of his career than a lace-up type).
This ain’t gonna be easy, Perk. But I am willing to try…
4.) ESPN’s Brian Windhorst made some waves last weekend when he suggested in an interview that had Andrew Wiggins been represented by Rich Paul, he would likely still be a member of the Cavaliers.
Now, readers, before you just start piling on Windhorst — which, yes, I know you love to do — let’s take a step into that hypothetical realm and see how the dominoes would have fallen differently for the Cavs had Wiggins remained on the roster.
First off, the team still likely parts ways with Waiters. We’ve seen enough from the real universe to suggest that the struggle for ball dominance on this team wouldn’t have been much different. With Wiggins on the roster, though, GM David Griffin probably doesn’t go shopping in New York and real-life “godsends” (to steal from head coach David Blatt) Iman Shumpert and J.R. Smith never arrive. Does Minnesota still make a deal with Cleveland? Maybe Waiters, Anthony Bennett and a pick for Love? Or does Cleveland hang onto that package, go for a cheaper Love replacement (say, the player Minnesota picked as its Love replacement, Thaddeus Young) and then turn Waiters, Bennett and Memphis’ protected first rounder for a big man… maybe even Mozgov, as we know Blatt and Griffin had their eyes on the Russian big man for a while.
So, all that and the Cavs still would have burned through all of their acquired assets — all the extra picks, all the young players. Yes, you’d have a young star in the making in Wiggins, but you’d be fielding a worse rebounding, worse shooting stretch four and the Cavs would be, even with a deal for Mozgov, small-ish, a fact that was exposed in their Love-less pre-All-Star loss to the Bulls.
What’s my point? Well, I didn’t know I had one until I got here, but the point is that Love — even the somewhat uneven version of the Love Cavs fans thought they were getting — is a better fit for this team as it tries to win a championship now than Wiggins would have been. That’s been said before, but all the moves around the trade deadline proved it for the Cavs again. They found, it’s easier (or, at least, less expensive) to find talent on the wing than it is to find it down low. The bigs that can shoot like Love is capable of, don’t rebound the way he does. The ones that rebound don’t stretch as well.
Love showed the importance of that specific balance of skills Tuesday night against the Pistons as he hit eight threes and grabbed nine boards and played a huge roll in the Cavs overcoming a 14-point second half deficit.
The OKC pick in this deal (which we sent to Denver) will almost certainly convey this year. It is protected 1-18. If OKC finishes in the top 12 (and a bottom 18 teams fails to win the league), then the pick conveys. Right now, the Thunder are tied for 13th with Milwaukee, a half game (in the win column) behind the flailing Wizards for 12th. Even without Durant, OKC will have a better record coming home than the Bucks or Wiz. Still the deal was well worth it for the Cavs, as was the Love deal. Love is a better… Read more »
For anyone out there just looking for more Cavs stuff. A highlight film of the Cavalier that should arguably be ranked #1 on a “trade value” list – Mozilla Gorilla:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-SiI63znYY&list=FLi3W7qRFA6qX5AWyiujt-5g&index=4
Don’t look now… but with the Bulls loss to Charlotte, the Cavs are now tied for the third seed…
Also, the Wiz lost again… this time by 20 to the T-Wolves…
Unraveling of the Wizards. That is who I want in the first round, those other bottom seeds seem to be more fierce. I believe 2nd is so doable which seems crazy prior to mid January. Go Cavs!
It will be a shock if the Cavs finish lower that 2. 1 is doable. Go ask Cols!
Good Perkins quote from ESPN’s McMenamin article: “I looked at Cleveland and said, ‘Man they play great basketball,'” Perkins said. “I wasn’t just looking at the offensive end; I was looking at the little things. Passing up good shots for great shots, on the defensive end you see guys helping the helper, see guys being at the nail, guys coming out (to help on) pick-and-roll (coverage), guys bumping early. Communication was there. I said, ‘Man, that team is on a mission.’ You can tell they’re playing agenda-free basketball, trying to get the win and get better. I just wanted to… Read more »
Yeah, it was great to see him be so effusive about the team
Hey U-Dog! i noticed that quote as well… that was the one to which i was referring in my previous post to EG.
I always copy your good stuff. I want to make sure everybody gets it.
The feeling’s mutual, U-Dog!!! HAHAHA!
And I’m even more grateful you weren’t lazy like me and posted the whole quote…. I loved it as well! I think Perkins is looking like he’s going to be a great addition!
When it takes a point and a half to jump from 30th to 15th, when do some of these stats just boil down into being pointless drivel?
Fun article. Overall, the bench is _interesting_. We have the old guys who can only kind of play — Miller, Marion, and Jones. The best case scenario here is that by the time the playoffs roll around they will have worked themselves into some kind of shape and be able to contribute if needed. Then we have the Contract, aka Brendon Haywood. And we have The Rook (Joe Harris) So that leaves the REAL bench — Shump, Delly, and TT. That’s pretty good. Shump and Delly have been great at putting the screws on D and TT has been terrific… Read more »
. . . and I wouldn’t forget Marion.
BTW, Simmons finally has the 2nd part of his trade value column out. In it, he acknowledges that his initial ranking of Kyrie (from his TV show) was way off. Kyrie is now in his top 10, which will be revealed in a 3rd column. Initially he had Kyrie like 25.
HAHAHA…. but what about Love????
No update to Love :)
Simmons is really a goofball. I don’t understand why he hates Kyrie. I think he just hasn’t watched him play much this year, so he has this image in his head of a gunner who plays no defense. In reality, Kyrie is a legitimate 2-way player, an efficient scorer, and creator for teammates. WHO IS 22!!
Hit the nail on the head…. it’s clear he hasn’t watched the Cavs this year. I think it’s inexcusable as well… his job is sports for a living! Just look at whom Simmons put ahead of K Love on the list… Mirotic??? Pau Gasol??? Kyle Korver??? There’s too many to list… what a joke.
Simmons’ a joke, a walking, talking clickbait. The only difference between him and Bayless is that ol’ Skip plays the charlatan with a wink. Bill is Boston-serious about it
HAHAHA… I like that description of Bayless, Adrian! It saddens me that Simmons has seemingly gotten worse over the years, or maybe I just wasn’t hip to it when I was younger.
I used to love Simmons’ columns. I think he did more research back in his younger days. Now, it’s all emotional, reactionary, just terrible. Case in point, his ranking of Love… it’s just absurdly wrong.
The moment I got to the part about Love’s defense being worse than it’s ever been, I knew Bill hadn’t done his research. I used to love his columns too, back in the old days. They were still emotional, but they were heartfelt and backed up with legitimate journalistic chops. Now he’s all show. Straight downhill since the Sox won in ’04.
Definitely, Adrian… It’s interesting you think that the point of decline was after the WS in ’04… It seemed to me that it was his move to LA. I wonder if those events coincide.
In defense of Simmons, Kyrie was not playing defense until this year. Also in defense of Simmons, its a trade value ranking, not a player ranking. i.e., contracts matter. What is not defensible, however, is his overreaction to KLove’s struggles early in the year. I think this has more to do with the Celtics being a possible destination for Love, and since it didn’t work out, he is invested in Love failing. Put it like this: All NBA players’ contracts are voided and they are all entered into a 15 round draft in which all players receive 1 year contracts… Read more »
Good point about Simmons’ personal investment in the Love matter… I was aware that it’s a trade value ranking, and I think my point still stands… Do you think the Cavs would trade for Gasol straight up? Or Mirotic? Or Korver? I venture to guess that Love would fetch considerably more than any of these players straight up… which is what his rankings suggest.
All good points. it just still strikes me as lazy on his part. I mean, it’s not as if Kyrie and KLove are guys past their prime or even hear thieir primes. Guys in their early 20s with that kind of output and talent…they’re virtually untouchable. You don’t even pick up the phone if you’re their GM unless you get a lot more than a Mirotic or, yes, a Klay Thompson, even considering contracts.
But then again, I’d probably be really, really bad as a GM. I’d be Hinkie 2.0 because of my love of numbers.
HAHAHA… same here Adrian re: numbers! And totally agree… Kyrie and Love in my mind are virtually untouchable.
If you read Part 1, Simmons names 9 PGs ahead of Kyrie. 9. I mean you could argue all day about him being the 25th vs 10th in trade value overall but Come on 9th in PGs? Even with a bad Cavs start that’s completely unforgivable. Ref #43 Teague.
HAHAHA… I know I saw Teague there and thought, “Hmmm I wonder if ATL thinks Teague is more valuable than Love????”
It is amazing how quickly Mozgov has made himself so valuable to the cavs. Clearly was not understood by Brian shaw. I was glad we were able to clamp down on the Pistons in half 2 even when he sat, but he will be the #1 foul-trouble target of opposing coaches for the playoffs. He really makes our whole team so much better.
Perkins…. “I choose the King…”
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12377400/kendrick-perkins-picked-cleveland-cavaliers-los-angeles-clippers-play-lebron
There was another quote I loved from Perkins about how the Cavs are playing “agenda-free” basketball. He goes on to say something to the effect of he knows he’s not an All-Star, so just wants to win rings.
Thanks for this EG.
Great stuff about the Cavs bench Robert! Gotta believe as Shump continues to improve, Delly continues to regain his confidence in his shot, Perk gets acclimated and Matrix gets healthy… the bench will continue to rise in the rankings.
Yeah Marion has been the one mercenary who has looked a decent fit from day 1. He’s not gonna be a major factor at this point in his career but he can still contribute nicely at the back end of the rotation
When healthy, Matrix looked pretty good!
James Jones has been doing some great things last few games. If he can be an effective defender and hit open shots, he could be a legitimate back up to Lebron. Essentially make them 10 deep.
Need to get some good practice time in with Perkins though, it’s gonna take a week or two for him to be actively part of the rotation.
Agree with you on both counts. Jones just seems to have more energy than Miller at this point… plus I like his length.
Can’t wait to see what Perk does with the 2nd team…. hopefully better than Haywood!
I’m really excited about seeing #Samson improve his game… I think the last thing left for him to improve is decision-making on when to attack off the dribble. I’ve seen him sometimes force it to the paint, and sometimes see him unwilling to drive to the paint, and passes it rather than attacking.
I think he really can be the feature scorer on the 2nd unit as time goes by.
RE: Cavs Bench – I think what gets lost in the data here is that we don’t have a traditional bench due to the depth of our starters. The way Blatt manages his substitutions pretty much guarantees one or more of the Big 3 are playing at all points. The ‘bench’ pretty much play as role-players or specialists surrounding this, without the need to initiate much offense.
Take a look at the top 10 teams when filtering by bench – there are a couple elite teams here but also Indiana, Lakers, Boston, etc.
Ugh – Merkaderka beat me to it :) +1 what he said
I think the main reason why bench stats don’t look good is that, like the starters, the bench has been in flux all season until recently after the trades.
They’ve improved, and if they can develop some consistent minutes/rotation patterns, they’ll continue to improve.
Robert, I thought you made a great point about the the rotations. Our bench doesn’t have to score because we’ve figured out a rotation where one of our three star players is always on the floor. The bench players supplement the skill sets of which ever stars are out there. Especially in the case of the Lebron + Bench unit that plays about 10 min a night, Lebron is going to score 70% of the points in that unit and thats by design. When shump and TT come in with Love and Kyrie on the floor, they’re out there for… Read more »
I do mention the bench scoring average, but that’s not what the ranking is solely based on. The ranking I was using is based on an efficiency differential which — and I’m far from the best person to explain how this works — takes a lot of different factors into account.
I think our bench serves a very different purpose than most benches. Because our starting five are so capable of creating leads, our bench isn’t asked to carry much. The main three – Delly, Thompson, and Shump, are basically just to play smart defense while the others rest. We rarely have an all-bench five on the floor. The others: Marion, Jones, Miller, and Perk, are four Vets with championship rings. They serve a specific purpose for specific matchups and situations. Their role isn’t to play often or regularly, its to play when necessary and they won’t wilt in the big… Read more »
Losing Moz would definitely be bad because he doesn’t have a true replacement on this team unless you think Perkins can not foul out every game.
Lebron would be bad because… Ya know.. best player on the planet and stuff..
We could get by if we lost Kyrie or Love for a little while but not both
I like your point about the ring guys…. totally agree, although I’d like to see Perk and Jones get a consistent 5-10 minutes every game.
Offensively, the bench is less than impressive. What I like about them is their ability to fit in the *rotation*, as you noted. They’re solid plug-n-go material when at least two of the Big 3’s on the floor. I am, however, excited about Shumpert’s potential as not only a scorer, but a distributor. He seems to be making better decisions with the ball than he did at GT, and he’s not far from being a legitimate offensive option even without the Big 3 opening the floor for him. TT…I have no complaints. What more can I expect? He’s not about… Read more »
Agreed, and I also think that when you have 3 stars, your bench doesn’t need to be high scoring, it needs to be able to “fit in,” like you said.
One of LeBron, Kyrie, and Kevin are usually on the floor at all times. We don’t need the bench to score a bunch of points. We need them to defend, rebound, provide energy, and hit the occasional 3.
I am excited about Shump’s scoring ability with the 2nd team… I actually think the last part of his game to develop is knowing when to attack to the basket, and when to pass out of the attack.
He seems sometimes over-aggressive, and then sometimes too passive. I think he will learn from the best and strike a nice balance.
I think the Cavs bench numbers are weighted down by the “old bench,” like DaveR said. Our starters which are arguably the best offensive starters in the league + the great defense we’ve been playing + an average bench output – keeping in mind the limited rotation/minutes – and that’s a championship recipe. ————– I’m curious what’s going to happen this offseason. I’ve mentioned it before, and I think that I’ll mention it again, but I could see LeBron opting out next year and taking less than the max. Love then gets his max deal and can just play basketball.… Read more »
You’re right about the “repeat offender” provision of the luxury tax: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q21
On your point about LBJ taking less than the max, I thought he is on record as saying that he’s not ever taking less than the max again (as he did in Miami) for as long as he can command it/a team is willing to pay him the max.
Lebron is never not taking the max. He’s now the vice president of the players union. He is possibly the most underpaid player in professional sports (in terms of salary). He know the players got killed in the last CBA negotiation and he is going to lead by example. As for the future salaries of TT, Mozzy, shump and Smith, idk how we value these guys going forward. Smith is most likely going to use his player option and opt-in next year for 6M or so. After that, he will probably be cheaper than that. TT and shump… no idea..… Read more »
I still think we should let TT walk if he’s offered anything north of 8m a year.
He is having a brilliant year but is far more expendable than Moz. Andy is a better version of TT – particularly in a reduced minutes bench role and getting an energy PF on a minimum deal is a no brainer.
Rich Paul may be his agent but there is no way LeBron walks if we let TT go – particularly if we don’t match an offer as he’s still getting paid.
Griffin may have played this one perfectly too
I really doubt Andy will ever be Andy again, and I doubt he’ll ever approximate what TT is right now, even with reduced minutes. I’d hate to lose TT, but someone’s going to have to pay a lot for him. There’s always guys like Larry Sanders, though…
I agree Re: Varejao, sucks that he got injured like that.
Totally agree about Moz being more valuable than TT
Especially since one is a 7-footer who changes shots at the rim, has post moves and can hit with decent range… and the other is a 6-9 energy guy who rebounds, but can only really hit garbage shots. Don’t get me wrong… I love TT’s effort and attitude, but he’s not a guy you’d trade two first round picks for (no matter how protected they are…)
I think at this point in their respective careers, TT is definitely a better version of AV, except for the outside shot. How many “energy” players of the bench for 25 minutes a game are there for only the minimum? Can the Cavaliers still offer a contract before the end of the season? And what is the maximum backload that the Cavaliers can do for the last two years? Like can they go 10 million the first two years (when AV is currently guaranteed) and then increase it to 15 and 17 million the last two years? Hopefully they can… Read more »
Agree with your points about TT’s game. Only thing he lacks is a consistent outside shot from the elbows.
Did he actually say he was never going to take less than the max? I know he wanted to be a max this time because it would be the first time ever he was the highest paid player on the team, but if he is serious about winning multiple titles, he knows it isn’t only a matter of making sure Gilbert is willing to spend, but there are spending limits, so there may be a time when he might need to say he won’t take the max so that they can sign other players.
I don’t know that he’s said those words since he left Miami, but he was pretty clear during his last days with the Heat and with any suitors this past summer that he would not take anything less than the Max. As someone else said earlier in the thread, now that LBJ is the VP of the Players Union, there is absolutely zero chance he doesn’t ask for (and get) a max deal everytime he negotiates. I would guess that the only time he might consider taking less would be if he decides to go the Dirk route (rather than… Read more »
Don’t forget LeBron is possibly the only player that can earn more total $ by NOT taking the max. Salary is a small part of his income, whereas winning several titles in a row would make his brand skyrocket. And, he is one smart dude. I could see him someday taking the min if it allows another star to come on board to continue the title run.
Extremely wishful thinking
Windhorst, you suck. “Informed speculation” as in I don’t have any credible reason to go on record saying this, but I’m going to anyway. Can’t stand that guy.
Has anyone noticed that Windhorst doesn’t write for ESPN about the Cavs much anymore? He does a lot of radio shows with Cleveland people where he discusses the Cavs, but in his official capacity at ESPN he really isn’t the “LeBron” guy anymore. I wonder if ESPN realizes that Windy lacks close sources with LBJ and Cavs at this point.
Now that McMenamin is covering the team… he’s become the definitive Cavs guy. Mac has always been well thought of (he did a terrific job out here covering the Lakers), so I can only assume that he gets the bulk of the Cavs stuff now…
Yes. Exactly. But its interesting that ESPN made that switch. With Windy having Cleveland connections and being the key Heat guy for the past several years, I assumed he would be in Mac’s role. But Windy is more of a mini Stein at this point.
Its an interesting career shift. Probably more upside for him. But also may reflect a weakening relationship with LBJ
I think that his relationship not being what it once was with LBJ might be part of it (he was as caught off guard as anyone on the return home this summer), but I also think that the mothership is also way more tuned into fan comments than people realize… For instance, Jamison Hensley covered the Browns for one season on the team page and the comments were overwhelmingly negative… the next season they replaced him with Pat McNammon… It may just be that they anticipated some backlash if Windy were to cover the Cavs. Or it may just be… Read more »
Hey! I specifically asked you…
Haha – I still couldn’t help myself, Robert. And I did follow your instruction, BEFORE I started piling on Windy, I did enter your hypothetical realm. ;)
Trading wiggins for love was and is a no brainer. Love is better than wiggins T pretty much every aspect of basketball. Love is also young. He plays at a position of need and he will be here for his prime yeArs. We would be much worse if we had wiggins instead of love.
Love will likely remain the superior player fur the next 4-6 years and quite probably wiggins will never be better than him.
Agreed that Love is the better player. It was definitely a no-brainer trade. You make that trade 100 out of 100 times in Cleveland’s situation.
I was greedy at the time and would have loved to get Love for Bennett + Waiters + every pick available, but that wasn’t going to happen.
I think it’s an insane stretch to suggest that Love will be the superior player for the next 4-6 years. I still don’t take issue with the trade that we made to acquire him, but Wiggins is already flashing insane offensive potential at 20 years old; he’s much more advanced on that end of the floor than many gave him credit for going into the NBA draft. He’s good enough that some already can make a decent argument that he is as valuable as Love. Barring injury, I think he’s likely to clearly be a better player than Love in… Read more »
Wiggins can’t even crack a 13 per right now. He’s having a worse rookie yeAr than tyreke evans
So, let’s be clear…are you suggesting that when all is said and done that Tyreke Evans will have been a better NBA player than Andrew Wiggins?
I think Cols’ point is that it is far from “an insane stretch to suggest that Love will be the superior player for the next 4-6 years.”
Why is it insane to think that? Wiggins is putting up a PER about even with Waiters’ rookie season PER.
Kevin Love will only get better on this team as he continues to adjust. There is zero guarantee that Wiggins will ever be an All-Star, let alone a better player than Kevin Love.
Love has posted a PER over 20 four times in his career, three of those times over 24.
His PER is just under 20 this season, in a huge adjustment situation. He’ll be a 20+ PER player for the next 4-6 years, and if all goes well, it’ll be between 22-25.
There is a legitimate chance that Wiggins never posts a PER over 20 in his career.
I know PER isn’t the end-all-be-all statistic, and Wiggins could develop and be a star, but I don’t think he gets there for a few years.
I refuse to stick my head in the sand just because I’m a Cavs fan and want to “feel good” about the Kevin Love trade. I’ll say it again – I wasn’t against the trade at the time, and I’m still not against it (but am more nervous after seeing Wiggins and Love play this year). http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2375712-andrew-wiggins-ceiling-looks-higher-than-ever I don’t post that article because I agree with every point it makes, but it does clearly illustrate how Wiggins has been getting better with each month of his rookie season (until Kevin Martin’s recent return and Sota’s stupidity of allowing that to… Read more »
There’s certainly something to be said for wanting this to be true as a Cavs fan… Trying to compare the stats of these two players is apples and oranges. As you said earlier Ross G… fit often trumps talent, especially on a team that is trying to win a title… The only version where this turns out to be a bad trade, IMHO, is if the Cavs DON’T win a title before KLove leaves… If he leaves this summer or next summer and the Cavs haven’t won the chip, then it will look like a disasterous trade… Otherwise, it still… Read more »
There is still a chance that Love leaves. That makes this trade not a no-brainer but a swallow-hard-and-hope-everything-breaks-right deal. Love’s age really swung this deal for me back in August. He’s only 26.
I really don’t see how people are thinking Love might still leave. The kid is FINALLY winning games and is in a position to do so for at LEAST 3 years. All he has ever said is that he wants to win. Why leave if hes on a winning team in the East. Sure, one year deal, whatever. But unless the Cavs completely implode, he will be here.
Yeah. He’s staying. They wouldn’t have made that trade otherwise.
I agree with JMay. Obviously nobody knows for sure, but the only team I was really concerned about was LA because he’s from the West Coast.
Something tells me he’s not excited to go to a team that might not win 20 games, to be paired with Kobe, for less money than he can make in Cleveland playing next to LeBron, Kyrie & Co.
I think he stays too, but thats after we have righted the ship and now look like title contenders. But he COULD leave. And at the beginning of the year there was a higher probably than right now that he would leave. When we were struggling and he wasn’t playing defense and the media was picking him apart, if things hadn’t turned around, he might have left. When we made the trade, there was the possibility that something would happen or that this season that would’ve prompted Love to leave.
remember when we had the chance to trade fpr amare but did not pull that trade cos the sun wanted whats is name again and the cavs bucked. what happened in the playoff that season, lose to celtic. the love/wiggins trade is good. live with it. you do what makes you better in the present and future, but you start with the present the trade is good.
I believe that was J.J. Hickson haha
I agree with you Cols and Gordon… said the same thing on a prior thread, do that trade every day of the week and twice on Sunday. This is not to suggest that Wiggins won’t be good… but K Love is definitely better, will be better over the next 4-6 years since he will be at his peak while Wiggins will still be developing. Ross Gumdrop makes a valid point about Cavs’ fans worries, but I disagree that we know Wiggins will be great… that has yet to be proven, whereas Love has already proven himself in this league. And… Read more »
1.) Those stats include the bad Cavs. Agree with 2 and 3. Perk seems to know what he needs to do fans be damned. 4.) We have no clue what the Cavs would have done if they kept Wiggins. The whole agent thing is sort of hard to believe. If that were really the case(and Wiggins was informed of this), Wiggins could have worked out some kind of buyout or just fired his agent. Anyways, I don’t think Waiters would have been an acceptable part of the Love package back then. Certainly not Waiters and Bennett and a pick. Maybe… Read more »
Sorry, flipped my brain on the pick. It might convey next season if OKC doesn’t rebuild. I guess my point is true #1, shaky #1, and middle 1st round pick is more desired than shaky#1, #4, middle 1st round pick.
Is the draft ordering outside the lottery done by playoff seeding or by record? OKC as an 8 sed in the west probably would have something like the 5th or 6th best record in the east, which would put them around the 18-20 pick range. Unless its done by playoff seeding. Then OKC is starring at the no 16 pick. Barring something catastrophic, that pick will be dealt next year in either case.
Just about every other pick the Cavs handed out this year changed hands.
My understanding is that the picks are ranked according to record within the playoffs and outside of the playoffs. So yeah, a 8th seed West team will have a worse pick than a 5th seed East team.
I agree I doubt any Love trade would have happened without Wiggins, unless it was done mid-season. Wolves seemed to be too stubborn to do the trade before the season without Wiggins. I guess whether if the trade would have happened mid-season would have depended on whether Bennett developed with the Cavaliers a lot more than he has with the Wolves.
While it’s still too early to make a definitive ruling on the oft-dissected Wig for Love trade… I do often wonder what Minny would have done if the Cavs had decided not to pull the trigger and waited them out. Would Flip have held out until the trade deadline and moved Love with a Dragic style trade? Would somebody like Morey in Houston figured out a way to pry Love away after failing to get Bosh this summer? It’s highly doubtful GS woud have ever traded Klay for Love, especially after the way they started the season… Flip probably would… Read more »