Another Cavs Draft Reaction – by Kevin Hetrick
2011-06-24The following post is fairly critical of the Cavs’ draft day decisions. I will preface the post by noting that the Cavs have much more information at their disposal than I do and surely have very talented people working on their player evaluations. They could also have a big trade in the works. Finally, it is foolish to evaluate a draft one day afterwards. With that said…
My reaction to the Cavs’ draft is confusion. Draft day started with so much promise. The Cavs had the 1st and 4th picks, two second rounders, a huge trade exception, and an owner willing to spend money. The options seemed limitless and, at a minimum, it appeared the day should end with the Cavs having two long-term starters and a quality role player in tow. Something completely different happened. No picks were bought or traded for; instead a pick was traded away. At #4, the Cavs reached for a player that most had in the 8 – 10 range; who also plays the same position as two of their three best players under the age of thirty. Of their fifteen players, the Cavs have four point guards and six power forwards. Are the Cavs trying to remake themselves as the Minnesota Timberwolves? The trade exception expires in two weeks. Surely a trade is coming. This can’t be the last memory prior to a depressing lockout, can it? For pick by pick analysis:
Kyrie Irving – Kyrie should be the Cavs point guard for the next 12 years. If I was taking a glass half-full approach, more time would be spent discussing this pick.
Tristan Thompson – After the Irving pick, my assessment of the Cavs current roster of players under 30 would have been:
Part of the 10 year plan – Kyrie Irving
Part of the 5 year plan – Anderson Varejao
Gets one more year to prove he belongs as a starter in the five or ten year plan – JJ Hickson
Belongs in the NBA, but isn’t part of future plans – Daniel Gibson, Ramon Sessions. I’m sorry, Boobie. You were fine when the Cavs dominant ball handler was a 6’9” small forward. Now that the dominant ball handler is 6’3”, it’s time for us to go our separate ways. Thanks for the memories and good luck with your continued NBA career.
Players with one more year to prove they at least belong on an NBA bench – Samardo Samuels, Ryan Hollins, Semih Erden, Christian Eyenga, Manny Harris & Luke Harangody.
The top five are point guards and power forwards, so the Cavs could really use a center and some wing players. Hickson, Gibson, and Sessions would have been available for the right price. Fortunately for the Cavs, the best player available was a center; Lithuanian Jonas Valanciunas. Jonas is seven feet tall with a 7’-4” winspan. He has been a great U18 player in Europe and had a very promising season in the Euroleague, the second best professional basketball league in the world. Some scouts thought he could eventually be the best player from this draft; and two of the best run organizations in basketball (Spurs and Thunder), were rumored to want to trade into the lottery to draft him.
Then the Cavs draft Tristan Thompson. I liked Thompson well enough and had him rated as the #11 prospect; but he wasn’t the best player available and fills a lesser need than Valanciunas. Despite being a freshman, Thompson is 20 years old (2 months older than Derrick Williams, 14 months older than Valanciunas). Thompson has great potential as a defensive player, but overall he is very raw. A few random stats on him:
Draftexpress.com compared 17 big men’s situational play. Overall, Thompson was fourth to last for points per possession (ppp). His 0.747 ppp on post-ups was second to last and his 0.654 ppp on jump shots was the worst, despite taking less than one jumper per game.
Thompson got to the free throw line more frequently than any other big man; however he only shot 49% when there. Thompson is a very raw offensive prospect. He scores on putbacks, cuts, and occasionally in isolation situations when he can beat less athletic players off the dribble. He will face many fewer “less athletic” players in the NBA.
Thompson was a great offensive rebounder, grabbing 14.0% of available offensive rebounds. If he can eventually rebound with the same efficiency in the NBA, he would be a top five offensive rebounder for a power forward. The flip side is that he only grabbed 13.6% of available defensive rebounds. It’s pretty rare for someone to rebound better on offense than defense. Even if he can grab defensive rebounds at the same rate in the NBA as in college; he would rank as a bottom ten power forward in the NBA, comparable to players like Danilo Gallinari and Rashard Lewis. His poor defensive rebounding is generally attributed to poor fundamentals and positioning. He definitely needs to improve these skills in order to fill his most likely role in the NBA.
Hopefully time reveals that this draft is a huge success for the Cavs, but one day later it’s hard to get excited about Tristan Thompson at #4, considering the huge potential that the start of draft day promised.
#32 pick – This pick was confusing when the Cavs picked Justin Harper. Another power forward? The Cavs and Timberwolves should play one game next year where all that plays is point guards and power forwards. Anyways, Harper was at least a quality addition and a player that I had rated as #31 in the draft. Then the Cavs traded him for future 2nd round picks. What? I thought the Cavs were the team that was going to be buying draft picks; or they were going to trade #32 and #54 to move into the late part of the first round. Instead they punted? Perhaps with the lockout coming, the Cavs thought it was better to have picks in future years. Maybe they tried to trade into the late first round and draft Nikola Mirotic, but the Bulls made a better offer. Regardless, as far as short term satisfaction is concerned; the outcome of the #32 pick is surely lacking. Even for long term considerations, the value of two picks in the 40 – 50 range is unlikely to have better benefit than picking someone at 32 this year.
Milan Macvan – This is a throw away pick. Macvan is 6’9”, 265 lbs. He is technically a center in Europe, but there is no way he ever plays center in the NBA at 6’9” with poor athleticism (so the Cavs drafted another PF). Even as a PF, many expect he will never play in the NBA; both due to lack of necessary ability but also due to lack of desire to come to the NBA. He is a totally serviceable center in the Euroleague, and I wish him a great career. If the Cavs wanted to stash a Euro here; they could have drafted Adam Hanga (who the genius Spurs drafted at #59) or Georgi Shermadini, a 7’-1” center who had a PER of 23 in fifteen Euroleague games this year. There were also at least ten American players that were drafted later or weren’t drafted, that are more likely to see minutes in the NBA than Macvan (ten players with a chance greater than zero).
Like most Cavs fans, I was disappointed by yesterday’s outcome. I hope that several years from now, when I re-read this, all I can think is: “Wow, I was really dumb for doubting the Cavs. They never would have won their NBA championship if Tristan Thompson didn’t lock down Kevin Durant like that. I wonder if they’ll retire his jersey some day?” For now though; I’ll hope for an interesting trade, a 2011 – 2012 NBA season, and the start of the Kyrie Irving / Tristan Thompson era in Cleveland. (I added Thompson to the last sentence as an edit. Welcome to Cleveland, Tristan. Hopefully any doubts only drive you to become a better player.)
If TT is the long-term plan at PF and JJ and Andy are not, then what are your thoughts on trading one of them to Golden State for Monta Ellis? Seems like a mutually beneficial trade, since the Cavs need a SG and GS needs frontcourt help to compliment David Lee. Cavs would probably need to throw in another player (or two) such as Sessions (as back-up PG to Curry) to sweeten the deal for GS, but may be an option to use the TPE. With so many rumors about Monta wanting out and GS just drafting Klay Thompson it… Read more »
One more- this talks about the comparison and breakdown of Kyrie’s college year to derrick rose’s and chris paul’s. It’s unbiased and fair, and gives good reason to be really hopeful.
http://hoopstats101.blogspot.com/2011/05/2011-nba-draft-card-kyrie-irving.html
Good article. GM Grant says things i like in the link below
http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2011/06/draft_picks_just_the_first_ste.html
Good article about Kyrie’s history and his Fathers
http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2011/06/for_kyrie_and_dred_irving_a_lo.html
Btw, can one of you guys, whether it be colin, kevin, our john krolik, make an article about all of the free agents that the cavaliers would be interested in? Or about possible trades that the team can make?
Some more commentary on the big draft day and good old Lebron to boot :>)
http://basketballiguide.com/basketballiguide/Article/5516/Cavs—New-draft-redux—.aspx
If the cavs could have gotten JV and another first round pick, I would have been for it. As is and like I said, I still really like the TT pick. We upgraded the 4 position so now we can actually feel good about trading out our other 4 position players. Keep Varejo though- I love him, and he can play center. Also, Byron Scott seems to be slowly but surely shaping this team into people who have the right attitudes, characters, and work ethics and Andy is the epitome of that. I’d only ever want to trade Andy if… Read more »
ill give u that he only dominated one of those games but offensivley his not great. its his defensive attributes will give him a name in basketball. Those morris twins are older and hes only a freshman. I think if he would have stayed another year we might be talking about as a top three prospect. Im just saying the cavs are looking for the future and not now with him cuz they still have Hickson and Andy is really a power forward not a center. Plus the nba season for next year is still up in the air so… Read more »
Kevin, of course Hollingers system is not perfect, but I would think you would agree it’s been the most accurate of anything out there in predicting players NBA success, and some of his big busts, like Rose, he has explained going in that the system is unkind to freshman PG’s (which makes Irvings rating even more impressive). Also, if you look at past players rated as highly as TT, there has basically been one bust, Sweetney, and that was due to weight, not ability. And I wasn’t saying that TT was rated vastly better than Johan, just that not only… Read more »
First, I was getting the feeling listening and reading all the draft stuff that a lot of these international players were getting overblown. The weak draft and prob the success of Dirk played into this. Not that foreign players are bad, but they are usually a bigger unknown than college players, and that has to be factored. Second, I think TT was drafted for a trade. However, there is no way the front office mad that pick without believing that they would b ok if a trade fell through. Of course Big V and an extra pick would have ideal,… Read more »
Thanks for the response, Kevin. I appreciate your posts, and those of the whole CavsTheBlog crew. I’ve probably been posting too much on here, but it was nice to see I wasn’t the only person baffled by Tristan Thompson. I wasn’t generally responding to you in particular, but everyone who wants to get rid of every serviceable player we have who isn’t on a rookie contract, and last year it seemed like Boobie was one of the few people who was really fed up with the Cavs losing, and trying to break out of it, which to me is invaluable.… Read more »
Maybe I’ll talk to John about letting me post a “glass half full reflection” to contrast my “glass half empty reaction”.
Josh, My rationale on Valanciunas is briefly discussed in a response above and also in a previous draft profile. Click on draft profiles on the right hand side of the main page and scroll down. I probably posted it about a month ago. Regarding Hollinger’s Draft Rater, it is imperfect and even he admits that. Also Valanciunas was only one behind Thompson in the 2011 draft rater. I like Hollinger, but in 2010 he had Evan Turner over John Wall. In 2009, he had Ty Lawson over Blake Griffin, Danny Green over James Harden, and Nick Calathes at #6. 2008… Read more »
Here’s my extremely amateur analysis of the Cavs trade options, numbered by who I would like to see them trade the most. 1. Davis: This is likely impossible, at least without taking back an equally bad or worse contract. 2. Jamison: The expiring contract likely has value to other teams, but the Cavs would have to take that much back in salary, and I don’t think teams would want to send quality young talent just for the chance to save money. Maybe a gullible contender would send us a late first round pick and some filler. It would have to… Read more »
I don’t understand everyone’s fascination with Lighty. He was slightly above average as a fifth year senior in a down year of talent. How in the world does that translate to good NBA player? Danny Green was a better prospect than him and we saw how well he turned out. Who is the last fifth year senior to have an impact in the NBA?
First off- thanks for having this blog. I really want the Cavs to pickup undrafted David Lighty now. I really can’t believe he didn’t get picked up by someone, and we need to capitalize on it and get him. Anyone else think he’d be a great fit on the Cavs? My biggest disappointment with the draft is that no sweet deals were made. That 4 pick I feel like had a lot of value that we could have leveraged, yet didn’t. I was really dreaming of getting the rumored #2 pick and landing Williams. That would have been awesome. When… Read more »
Oh, and the line I really wanted to use after I quoted you was – “It appears you were glass half full before the draft simply so you could be glass half empty after it.”
I thought it was clever, so imagine it up there, too.
You didn’t just want Valenciunus, you wanted the moon, ” at a minimum, it appeared the day should end with the Cavs having two long-term starters and a quality role player in tow” THAT’S AT A MINIMUM YOU SAY. This is a bad draft, we knew it going in. The cavs were shit out of luck when they got picks at the top of this draft. To forget all this as you go in, and expect to have gotten two starters AND a role player AND use the trade exception to buy a player (separate rant: which player? who? name… Read more »
base, I took a quick look at the box scores for Texas’ games against Kansas and Arizona. I recall from watching the Arizona game that Derrick Williams struggled offensively against Thompson. A quick box score summary: In the two games that Thompson played two games against the Morris twins, the first time he was very good in a Texas victory. In 38 minutes, he had 12 points, 6, rebounds and 5 blocks in 38 minutes. Marcus Morris was held to 16 points on 17 shots with 7 rebounds. Markieff (in 23 minutes) had 10 points on 7 shots with 5… Read more »
Well, according to Hollinger, who has a far better track record of predicting draft prospects than anyone, Thompson WAS the best player available and the third best player in the draft. I think his numbers and track record hold just a little bit more weight than “Jonas is better because I say so”.
i dont know what any of you guys are talking about. Thompson is better then any foreign player to come out and i think he is the thrid best player in this draft. If u are doubting him just look at his game that he played against Kansas, he dominated the morris brothers. No foriegn basketball players are doing that. You guys need to open ur eyes foreign players hardly make it the nba.
A few thoughts. First, THANK YOU to someone who finally wrote an article that takes some perspective into account when analyzing the Cavs picks. Looked at from all angles, good and bad. It is important to not take what the front office says to the media as the absolute truth. With that being said, sometimes reporters put these guys in a situation where the truth comes out. Listen to the interview on the ESPN Cavs team page with Colin Cowherd and Chris Grant – Cowherd asks him about the TT pick, and Grant says TT and Kyrie were “guys on… Read more »
HoopsDogg,
I appreciate your comments on all of my posts. For the record, I had Varejao as someone to build around.
I also like Gibson and fortunately for everyone, I have nothing to do with Cavs’ personnel decisions. The Cavs have four point guards (including Gibson) under contract for the next two years. Moving Davis will be hard, so if the Cavs can trade Sessions or Gibson, they should consider it. Gibson may be better off with a contender that has more immediate use for him.
Gllad to see people are cooling down about the idea that Thompson was some sort of botched trade — agree with Brian that Chris Grant seems pretty authentic when he sings this guy’s praises, for better or worse. Appreciate all the draft analysis you’ve done Kevin, both in this piece and those before it. I had my eyes on Jonas as well, though wasn’t shocked by this pick. I think I’m a glass half-full guy who’s managed to talk myself into this. I think the pure FG% numbers are hard to project because Thompson was asked to do more for… Read more »
Having had a day to process, I still think this is a bad omen for the Chris Grant era. Luckily Kahn trumped him by taking a 26 year old rookie from Africa whose age was listed wrongly. In the words of Alan from the Hangover, “Classic.” I really don’t like the excuse makers who say give him the benefit of the doubt, and this is the first year of rebuilding, the rest of us know nothing… Chris Ford recently wrote a column about how scouting is getting so much more advanced and statistical rankings are getting so much more complex,… Read more »
I actually have no problems with the draft. The Cavs got Irving, the best player in this draft. Everyone after Irving and Williams were/are projects. The Cavs went with the project they liked the most. No problems with that. Also don’t see why people are upset about trading Justin Harper. They didn’t see anyone that warranted drafting, so they moved the pick for two seconds in 2013 and 2014. With Dwight Howard likely on his way out, those picks could be high up. The last pick was a draft and stash.
So like I said, no problems with the draft.
Macvan? Why bother? How about taking a shot on someone like Jereme Richmond from Illinois who has NBA athleticism and a ton of potential? And I love the people who think we shouldn’t be criticizing our GM. I’ve said this before… Chris Grant chose a career path that invites criticism of his actions. He knew what he was getting into. That’s what sports is all about. He may be vindicated. But there is just as good of a chance that he will fail. While I wish him the best, I’m not going to sit on my hands and give him… Read more »
To be fair, there was not anybody that was great fit at 4. It is a little silly to get heart broken over a 19 year old European who may not come to the league for.a year or two. You could criticize over any player they got at 4. In addition, 2nd round picks have very little value in the nba. I venture to.say 5% make it in the league, which may be high
Well like my name says im going to start watching the cavs next season. The reasons? Well i dont have a favorite team(not from the states) and i think its going to be fun to watch this team grow
Dave, The 2006 world championships were three years into Milicic’s NBA career. Stats I have found for Milicic as a teenager in Europe (2002 – 2003) are in 20 mpg, he averaged 9.5 ppg and 4.6 rpg on 48% fg shooting and 67% ft shooting. He rebounded and scored much more poorly than Valanciunas. Cake and eat it?, John Krolik and I have never met. My “reaction” piece is admittedly glass half empty. I am happy that the Cavs now have Irving. Thompson is also definitely a talent upgrade. Regarding “shortcuts”; I think taking Valanciunas, who won’t play until 2012,… Read more »
Kevin, I agree with your analysis of Big V and respect the care you put into. There is a lot controversy amongst Cavs fans about the TT pick, so I am trying to assess whether the controversy comes down to 1) differences in scouting opinions between the fans and Grant, or 2) a belief that the Cavs actually made a blunder and didn’t get what they wanted, (i.e. the Cavs really wanted Big V, but took TT in the hopes of being able to trade down and get Big V plus an additional pick later) or didn’t properly prioritize the… Read more »
Get over it! I’m sorry, but this is ridiculous. Krolik, I blame you for letting one of your buddies post here. TT is a fine pick, he provides skills. Better and more consistent skills than JJ. It was readily apparent that this draft was not talented. It was weak. Yet for some reason everyone is up in arms we dint invest heavily in this! What am I missing?! This is a long process that were starting and trying to take shortcuts is how you end up at the beginning. TT has as much star potential as anyone else after the… Read more »
There is a lot we don’t know. The Cavs worked out all these guys and studied tape so they know how each guy plays. They know they could sign TT right now (or soon). Many lessons have been learned from Rubio (contract nightmare) and Darko (look up his pre-NBA stats…had an 18-15 vs Pau in the 2006 Worlds).
Bryan, I certainly don’t suggest Grant is lying about liking Thompson. I don’t “trust” my scouting more than the Cavs either. I’m a fan with a computer and an opinion. The Cavs certainly have resources beyond my comprehension. The reasons I don’t like Thompson at number 4 are explained in the article. He has a very unrefined offensive game and he is a very poor free throw shooter. I don’t have very good information to quantify his defense besides blocks and steals. When I wrote the Kawhi Leonard profile, I went through the play by play data from 17 SDSU… Read more »
Where does your trust in Grant come from Bryan? This is his first NBA draft as a GM. Since he joined the Cavs in 2005 we’ve only had picks in the 06, 08, and 09 drafts. And who is to say that Ferry wasn’t making the decisions then. So what kind of NBA draft track record are you going by that you trust Chris Grant? The fact is we got a PF who has almost no offensive game whatsoever. He is a project who really doesn’t fit with what we have now. I mean are they going to stick him… Read more »
Question: Have you guys watched Grant’s Presser from last night? If so, do you think he is straight lying about how much he loves TT? If not, then what is your criticism of his reasoning for choosing TT (i.e. TT was the highest player on their board, and they believe the best strategy it to take the best talent regardless of position)? It seems like everyone is upset by the choice, but no one is addressing the presented rationale by Grant. Overall I trust Grant, and since he seems truly fired up about TT, I am behind him. If you… Read more »
LOVE your ending