Live Thread: Cavs @ Knicks, Game 3 NBA Playoffs
2023-04-21Good evening CtB!
The Cavs have ventured to Midtown Manhattan to take on the New York Knicks for game three of the 2023 NBA Playoffs at the historic Madison Square Garden. The Cavs are riding high off of a game two beatdown of the Knicks that saw them adjust and respond well after game one’s embarrassing offensive performance. In game two, Coach J.B. Bickerstaff left Isaac Okoro, Ricky Rubio, and Dean Wade parked on the bench as he let Caris LeVert cook at the combo guard spot and unleashed NBA Champion Danny Green off the bench. The result was damn near perfection on both ends of the court as the Cavs held the Knicks to sub-40% shooting, outrebounded the Knicks 43-36, out-assisted the Knicks 26-16, and nearly put up the magical 50/40/90 shooting splits. The performance was so good that question began anew about whether to make a change to tonight’s starting lineup given Okoro’s obvious inability to make Jalen Brunson pay for hiding on the defensive end. Even one of Okoro’s biggest cheerleaders in cleveland.com’s Chris Fedor has questions about the starting Okoro at this point:
Earlier this season, one #Cavs coach referred to a 5-man group as Clevelandās death lineup. Darius Garland. Donovan Mitchell. Caris LeVert. Evan Mobley. Jarrett Allen. With how LeVert played in Game 2, is it time to make that the starting lineup again?https://t.co/mZRr7yYpMK
— Chris Fedor (@ChrisFedor) April 21, 2023
For yours truly, the answer is obvious that Okoro should be relegated to bench duty but the question becomes, who should start? Personally any one of Caris LeVert, Cedi Osman, or Danny Green would be acceptable answers to that question, and I still wouldn’t count out Dean Wade from that equation either in spite of his horrible start to the playoffs. The bottom line is, this the NBA playoffs, every possession matters and there’s literally zero reason why Jalen Brunson should be afforded the luxury of relaxing on the defensive end at the expense of the Cavs’ offense. J.B. needs to be ruthless and remorseless for 48 minutes, which means making the Knicks pay for every moment Brunson’s on the court. Here’s some eye-popping stats that bring home the point:
It’s clear what’s lost when Okoro’s on the floor with the starters: rebounding, scoring, and ball movement… all three of which cost the Cavs game one. Yes the defense was excellent, and I have no problem seeing that lineup in spots where it’s needed, but Caris LeVert’s defense was much better still. I’d much rather see Okoro and Cedi Osman as a tandem off the bench that can compensate for each other’s weaknesses, apropos:
Osman and Okoro make for a deadly two man combination off the bench, why it hasn’t been used more is anyone’s guess. Just for fun, let’s throw Dean Wade into the equation and see what happens…
Hmm… what’s this? Osman, Okoro, and Wade are an elite three man grouping? It’s a shame this wasn’t explored more during the regular season.
It’s funny to talk to non-Cavs fans about Isaac Okoro during the regular season and these playoffs, because they universally see the obvious: To this point, Isaac Okoro is not a good NBA player and holds the team back from its full potential. Yet this obvious truth escapes many in Cavs media, fandom, and even the organization itself. Okoro has had three full seasons to show what he’s capable of, and right now he’s a rotation player on a good team, but not a worthy starter. And should the Cavs be good enough to go deeper into these playoffs, Okoro’s weakness in the starting lineup will become even more stark. No player was affected more than Evan Mobley, who’s offense took a leap from game one to game two:
With Randle trapping PnRs, this forced Mobley to attack out of the short roll where he really struggled. Notice how far Hart is able to help off Okoro, forcing Mobley to drive left and into Hartenstein. Knicks did a great job of shrinking the floor pic.twitter.com/4y4RdJyeaO
— Ariel (@APachecoNBA) April 16, 2023
Another short roll opportunity for Mobley and he kicks out to Okoro who puts the ball on the floor and misses over Brunson. Knicks will take this every time and something to watch for as the series goes on pic.twitter.com/FKbGmicZxx
— Ariel (@APachecoNBA) April 16, 2023
What will J.B. do? He said to Fedor in yesterday’s press scrum that he doesn’t plan on making a change, however Bickerstaff also gave Fedor a laughing smirk, the kind a coach gives when they don’t want to divulge any information that might help an opponent… so stay tuned!
PUT THIS ON A LOOP IN THE CAVS’ LOCKER ROOM
LETS. GO. CAVS. pic.twitter.com/54b3vQE92Z
— š§ (@RizzMobley) April 21, 2023
Tip off is scheduled for 8:30PM Eastern time and will be broadcast live nationally on ABC, Go Cavs!
Tower city (more so) and our guards need to show up and dominate the paint.
This should motivateā¦
If it doesnāt then theyāre pretty soft.
agree on that!
The immediate thought is that if playoff pressure neutralises Tower City scoring (& rebounding), cavs future is not as bright as it would seem. Then again, ātheyāre youngā gives some measure of short-term comfort.
toughness usually gets a lot better when a year or two older.
I might skip the Sunday game.
Wont be good for your mental health huh ?.. Game 3 was discouraging so I can understand.. Game 3 really killed all the positiveness/good energy from Game 2.
That and itās at 1 pm, when I typically have to deal with my young kids.
I think you gotta watch tomorrowās game, Arch. When the stock market crashes, the worst time to sell is at the bottom (and hopefully for the Cavs that was it).
agree. problem with the stock market is, it is hard to know when it hits bottom!
I take it this is an āavoid replayā game. Stench is apparent from reading only a few comments.
There was no joy. None at all.
š©
lol yes AVOID!!!!
It’s the worst game the Cavs have played in years. I’m not even talking about the Knicks play, the Cavs played like a sub G league team. DG’s worst game ever, he looked exactly like he used to look in the first couple of months of his rookie year. But it’s not like anyone else was a lot better.
I had Cavs in 7. Now Iām changing it to Knicks in 6.
NOT READY TO ” JUMP OFF THE SHIP “–AS RAOUL HAS REMINDED// IT IS ONLY GAME 3 —-SEE WHAT ADJUSTMENTS JB // CAVS DO——-IT IS TRUE —-HAVE POSTED BEFORE—-OUR BENCH NEEDS A ” MAJOR RELOAD ‘ —-UNFORTUNATELY WE HAVEN’T SEEN “20222 ” RUBIO —GREEN EXPERIMENT IS A WASH —LLAMA IS A ” G LEAGUE ” CAREER PLAYER –“ROL-O-VER —–ENOUGH BY ME HAS BEEN SAID “——AND ALTHOUGH I LIKE THE KIDS THE DRAFTING OF ICE // TOOOTHPICK HAS HURT US —-CHECK ALL THE PLAYERS DRAFTED AFTER THEM AND THERE ARE MANY WHO WOULD LOOK BETTER /// BE HELPING THIS TEAM ——–SUNDAY… Read more »
100% of drafts there are a lot of much better players picked later. no point in crying over spilt milk.
Levert in the starting lineup with DG and Donovan didnāt work the first time JB tried it, when DG initially came back from having his eye gouged. Three ball-dominant, high usage players in a lineup = one too many. Not sure why he expected a different outcome under playoff pressure. Start Okoro or Cedi (donāt know why he thinks the sky is going to fall if he dares to start Cedi).
I donāt know if it had anything to do with that. I just think theyāre sub .500 on the road and that was highlighted in the playoffs. I donāt think it matter who started in this one. It was a total shit show.
That’s more reason why I really wanted that Game 3 win so we secured a split for sure.
Yup correct, starting lineup started off great except for DG clanking wide open 3s, then the shit show got rolling.
I wouldnāt say they started off great, itās more like both teams were playing like crap initially, then the Knicks finally started playing better while the Cavs continued to crap the bed.
Held New York to 17 points in the first quarter and generated WIDE open DG 3 pointers that he just didn’t hit. The starting lineup change clearly wasn’t the problem is the point. If you want to quibble with the semantics go ahead.
They didnāt lose this game primarily at the defensive end. Iām talking about the offensive side of the court, which was not in synch even early in the game. Also, considering that Levert as 6th man/super-sub was one of the most effective components of this team for the entire last half of the regular seasonāand, prior to that, he has NOT always looked comfortable with this group and it took a long time to find his best roleāit was kind of a big deal to blow that up.
Caris has been a +15 with the starters this season, and they’re not guarding Okoro, it was idiotic of JB to NOT make a change in a 7 game playoff series.
The answer to the Cavs offensive struggles is never Isaac Okoro, and advocating for Cedi to start is even more panicky than starting Caris.
The problem is simple, they’re starting a 21 year old, 23 year old, and 25 year old on the road at MSG… it’s not that deep.
Even as sixth man, Caris gets a significant portion of his minutes with the starters, so Iām not surprised at that stat. But in that role, those minutes are coming mostly in Q2 after all of the Core 4 have had their first rotation out, and in the second half. Look, I advocated Cedi or Green to start this game. And I fully recognize there is zero chance the outcome would have been different. But I still think this was an unnecessary move that altered a role that had functioned very well over a long stretch of the season.
Garland has basically unlimited range (although he wasnāt hitting from anywhere last night). Itās not that hard to get him open looks unless the opponent is blitzing to get the ball out of his hands. The fact he got some open shots early does not mean the āteamā was comfortable with what it was doing offensively.
Generating wide open DG 3 pointers = good offense, period. LMFAO
So do you think a good approach to opening Game 4 would be to lean into Garland shooting high volume long jumpers right from the opening tip? Thatās not how he and the team played Game 2. At halftime of that game he had 26 points on 10FGA, and had shot 11FT.
I want DG shooting every open 3 he gets, which is exactly what he did game 2.
In fact, DG’s offensive explosion began with 2 wide open 3s in game 2 LMFAO
BTW, Carisā numbers this year (BBREF): as a starter, .532 TS%, 20.6 usage (skewed upward by the games he started in place of DG in Nov), and +- of +3.2. As a reserve, .561 TS% on lower usage (17.4), and +5.4. And just for kicks, although I am not high on Okoro, his numbers as a starter are .623 TS% on obviously low usage (12.6), and +3.9. Thereās no evidence that Levert plays better when heās starting with DG and Donovan than in the sixth man role, nor that the team has played better that way.
You were still wrong about how DG got his offense going game 2, and those numbers are irrelevant in a 7 game series against the same opponent over and over.
Okoro starting in game 2 spotted the Knicks 7 points in less than half a quarter, JB made the right move and last night had nothing to do with the starting lineup.
Not trying to argue Garland shouldnāt shoot. Hopefully he takes just as many in Game 4 but gets out of his head and just āplaysā instead of forcing. But, I just think there were other ways to improve the spacing for the startersānot great options, but players the Knicks would guardāthat DIDNāT require robbing the thinnest bench in the postseason of its one impact player.
Hey I wouldn’t mind Cedi or Danny Green getting a start in theory, but if people think starting Caris is a panic move, then the same would apply even moreso to a Cedi or Danny Green start.
Bottom line is that the change in the starting lineup is an easy target, but it wasn’t the reason they played poorly… people are searching for all these answers when it’s simply inexperienced young players choking in a big moment, which happens quite often and shouldn’t surprise anyone.
agree
yeah, but in game 2 he had the touch, in game 3 he didn’t, which makes a big difference.
it is true that when you don’t have it, sometimes you get it by firing away, but you can also be out of the game fast that way.
that is why the traditional wisdom for 100+ years is try to get close shots early in the game where it doesn’t matter as much if you are hot or not. only start firing away if you a down a lot late. That the way you manage a game NOMAD?
It may have contributed to just how tight everyone played at the beginning though. And my larger point is not that this one thing is to blame for losing yesterday. Itās that they already tried this specific thing ā start Levert with the core 4 ā for a good stretch of games in the regular seasons and it didnāt work. At all. It coincided with some of Levertās worst regular season play, and then they abandoned it. So why try now something already shown not to work?
maybe JR was spooked by all the CtB people on his case for not starting CL? I hope not.
I donāt think thereās a big enough sample size to draw those conclusions re LeVert. They choked. I donāt think they can play any worse in game 4.
right. our guys got bullied and played a shit game. I don’t think a single player had a + game.
that makes game 4 pretty much a must win. now is the time for EM + JA to get tough. if they don’t, we will be majorly bumming out!
that is the way basketball (and most other sports) goes: teams have good days and bad days.
totally agree, and have said so many times.
the obvious thing to do is to have TWO of DG, DM, CL on the floor at all times, not all three of them at once.
Grim performance from a young team that should if anything else be full of energy. Timeline is now and not all that long with the Mitchell trade given lack of flexibility going forward. Need to get out of the first round this year against a mediocre knicks team. Mobley could take a big leap next year. However, I donāt expect a giant leap from the team if they donāt make progress this year with a DM who has been playoffs his whole career.
Knicks aren’t mediocre.
For a playoff team I think they are. They arenāt like a sub 500 8th seeds that is a bad team. However, pretty weak year as far as contenders. No great teams amongst actual contenders in my opinion. And the knicks arenāt contenders.
We donāt have a bench. Time to unload some assets in the offseason. We need a legitimate 3&D wing. A couple of them actually because we need 1 on the floor every single time. A stretch 4. A back up point and another banger in the middle.
Id give JB another year, but if the team donāt get past the 2nd round next year then time to let him go too.
unfortunately Raoul, it gets worse. 1. We have negative assets because we’re going to need to pay our youngsters Mobley and Okoro, etc, within 2 years and only Mobley matters out of that crew, and we gave up a lot of picks for DM. He was worth them, but will only succeed if the person at the helm knows what they are doing. 2.The guys we need will run scared from Cleveland if we put on another performance like tonight in this series, and we probably will cuz JB is the coach and game 2 was the most prepared for… Read more »
“destroyed Wade’s confidence, messed up Lamar, …”?
What in the world are you talking about?
Do you think JB is to blame for Putin invading Ukraine ?
I know itās early and no oneās panicking. Itās just that the holes we have are pretty obvious. Trust that I believe we can win this series but Iām not expecting anything beyond being competitive in the next round. Growing pains.
JA 37 minutes, 5 rebounds
Hard Rock 18 minutes, 5 rebounds.
Jeff green still getting playoff minutes for the Nuggets. Gotta respect it.
Lowest scoring game in the NBA?
Confirmed
Iāll do a spot guest recap of this one:š©
Man,they stunk up the joint.
No Rubio in the second half was dumb. He played really good D and he’s a vet. Danny Green has nothing.
3 field goal attempts for JA in 37 minutes..
DG (21), Spida (19), and Caris (17) have 57/76 (75%) of our field goals attempts.
Again, Allen is the recipient of lobs. Garland never found him. Mobley too… that’s on Garland to break down the defense.
Missed the chance to beat em up. NBA needs an equivalent of a crash line just to rough up the other team’s stars when they’re getting blown out.
Knicks pouring it in this quarter.. 9/12 FG (75%) while we are at 7/17 (41%)..
Bench clearing time, esp DG
Cavs got to 70…somehow. I’m out, have a good night all.
while Denver has 61 at the half and ATL scored 130 points tonight.
Brunson jerks his head as much as the Bearded Turd does…
Gotta leave a bruise.
Good news is the Cavs can get this game out of their system.
again.. consistency.. why cant they play consistent at least… that’s all I ask for as a fan…
They’re young.
defense and effort travels though…or it should.
It never does with young squads, NBA law.
It wasn’t defense and effort. It was the yips. They didn’t slow down. Mobley was playing too fast all night. And if you can’t score, it doesn’t matter how well you play.
If it’s the yips, they should pack it in for the year. They’ll face way more talent if they make it out of this round.
get real! the series is 2-1, not 3 – 0. Don’t know where you were last Tuesday, but the Knicks got blown out.
first of all, this is the NBA – – nobody plays consistant.
Caris shooting 11 3’s in a game is TOOO MUCHHHH.. DG with 7 and DM with 8 attempts.
he was 4/6 on 2’s.. should have shot more 2’s.
Only quarter where we scored more than 20 pts in a quarter was 3rd quarter with 23 pts.. shame shame shame…
Can’t believe this garbage is a playoff game. One of the worst I’ve ever seen, going back to the ’70s…
Cavs better show up in game 4 and 5..
Actually, this reminds me of the Phills/Hill/Mills team that lost to the Knicks in the 90s. They kind of couldn’t score and were slowly constricted. I don’t believe this Cavs team will look like this on Sunday.
They better not.. I really wanted 3 straight wins to potentially clinch at home. or at least for us to win game 3 so its less pressure in Game 4.. stress!!!
LOL. Mobley.
Cavs better play a game 2 type of game in Game 4..
I expect they will. In fact, the Knicks are probably building themselves into a letdown…
OK. Need a big run.
Woof.
Why would DG even foul .. its not like he was going to stop it.. just tapped him.. just let them score..
Not getting to shooters has been a problem
They ran a play!
Ok
It’s still within reach.
No, it’s not. It’s really not.
it’s at 19 pts right now… dont see it happening but still watching.
Yup. This team needs to watch some Rocky montages or other “get tough” videos. This was a mental loss…
Again.. how many mental losses are you going to have this far into the season..
Cant have mental losses at this point.
This is the good Caris, bad Caris quarter.
At least Caris had a good side this quarter. Name another guy who did.
brunson. hartenstein. barret. hart
Danny Green ain’t it. Especially if you’re not running anything for him.
Too many easy points in the paint (dunks) for the Knicks while we out there jacking up 3’s and have two elite big men.
Knicks: 23/34 in the paint: 67%
Cavs: 18/31: 58%
Knicks 3PT: 7/27: 25%
Cavs 3PT: 6/29: 20%
I feel as though playoff defense has eliminated the easy alleyoops between DG and Mobes/Allen. That play probably accounted for half of DG’s assists per game.
Just empty the frigging bench, JB…
AGREE.
Hard to win a game when Dg, one of your all stars is 3/18 FG, 1/7 3PT 1/2 FT: for 8 pts.
Bench: 5 pts all by Okoro
Knicks bench: 25
WTF WAS THAT
second time don and caris end up on the same side of the screen
Should Green even be in?
IDK they need his shooting but he’s never shooting it.
Exactly. That rebound was the first play I saw him make…in the game? Oh, he missed a three as well. He isn’t a serious option on a really good team.