As a Cleveland sports fan, optimism can prove evasive 2012-02-11 Off By Kevin Hetrick Well, so much for happy thoughts. Apparently Varejao has a fractured wrist and is out indefinitely. Recap: Cleveland 112, Milwaukee 113 (Or, a salute to misfit toys) What is the value of spite? A short musing on LeBron James, Cleveland, and this Girl I Used To Love Irrationally, by Ryan Braun:
John, Yes, Cousins would make my list of current Cs that would be more valuable to the Cavs than Varejao taking all considerations into account. So that’s 7. Howard would not, for the reason I mentioned; because there’s zero chance he’d sign an extension here. “Maybe” Jefferson; he puts up numbers, but he’s a slow, plodding player that may not fit well with Byron Scott’s style of play. Plus, as you allude to, he’s making $15 million next year and then he’s a free agent, and presumably wouldn’t be interested in a significant pay cut. My impression of McGee from… Read more »
Brian, The Simmons deal is just an example. The sense I get from most Cavs fans is Varejao is near-untouchable, so the trade proposed was just one that “worked.” Offer and acceptance is another story. As far as top 10 guys, Howard, Jefferson (the only one I wouldn’t pay for), McGee, and Cousins I thought should make the list. Most of the borderline guys that are at or near Varejao’s level are 3-5 years younger and already producing. I made the 7 game playoff series comment hoping no one would reference this year’s meaningless regular season game vs. the Magic.… Read more »
Andy took “seven years” to become relevant, John? He was already a critical playoff performer 5 years ago, when he was able to shut down Rasheed Wallace back when Sheed was still “Sheed.” And was an excellent pick-and-roll partner for Lebron long before the Decision and Kyrie’s arrival. Bottom line, the Cavsalready will have cap flexibility; they already have an asset they can likely flip for a 1st rounder (Sessions); they already have extra low 1st & 2d rd picks coming their way over the next few years, and now it looks like the Cavs’ own pick is destined for… Read more »
O’Neal is an expiring contract. Would allow the Cavs max player money to spend. Which, um, I think is important nowadays? There are a # of better C’s available this summer, and if not, a few next…in addition to whatever position (SG/SF) we don’t draft. Not every draft pick makes the roster, and the Cavs are due to have plenty of space: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/cleveland.htm Anyways if you multiply the % of time that Andy spends on the injured list (30%) by the number of years it has taken him to become all of a sudden relevant (7) and then divide that… Read more »
Oh ya, not to mention with all these late round picks the cavs have accumulated, a lot of them are never going to be able to get one of the very limited roster spots. This is not football.
I’m not saying Verajoa will take a dirt cheap contract in his next signing, but I don’t think he’ll get significantly overpaid either, and you have no hard or easy the assets we get back for andy will be to resing, Andy, under different circumstances, already has resigned in cleveland for a very reasonable rate (maybe it wasn’t dirt cheap at the time, but I and most fans I knew certainly weren’t complaining then). I think that that fact, along with kyrie’s development and whatever pieces we add suggesting we should be at least be a decent playoff team in… Read more »
Bill Simmons’ opinion is flattering, but we have no reason to assume the Celtics were actually going to make such an offer before Andy got hurt. If they had, I’m sure the Cavs would have thought long and hard about it. Not sure what “10” centers you’re counting ahead of Varejao. I see 5 that are having an objectively better season “this” year: Howard, Bargnani (before he got hurt), Bynum, Marc Gasol and Greg Monroe. A couple others are comparable but not clearly better (Hibbert and Joakim Noah). I see 6 that I’d gladly trade Varejao straight up for, taking… Read more »
Also included in that fantasy-deal was Jermaine O’Neal’s expiring contract, which would have freed up space for us this summer
Simmons suggested a trade to Boston that would net us a young player and 2 first rounders. Which = flexibility, to either move up or out and take a chance at next year’s lottery. Just cause you have a pick doesn’t mean you have to use it. Alas, with the recent Varejao injury that would never happen. But my point is that we should be more OPEN to moving him, and have a backup plan for moving forward without him. He wanted out of Cleveland in ’07. Not until he got the best offer he could from another team that… Read more »
John, what exactly do you think the cavs can get for Andy right now? If we can get a top 5 draft pick, sure trade him. If we can get a young solid player and a top 10-15 then I’d think about it. But no one is offering that. Teams with high draft picks don’t need Andy, and teams that need andy are going to give picks in the 20’s for him, which usually result in players that don’t start too many NBA games. Andy will still be a solid starter when he’s 32-33, its not a big assumption to… Read more »
Only time will tell what this injury means for the franchise, but right now, it’s no good. That’s my opinion.
If the Cavs plummet and draft a player that’s a lot better than whoever they would have drafted 5 spots later, then I’ll talk about blessings in disguise.
Colin, I guess we just disagree on this. To explain my vantage point, here are two scenarios: one real life, the other a parallel universe. Real Life: In their first season without Lebron, the Cavs struggle to an 8 – 27 start, including having won only one of their last 19 games. Anderson Varejao goes down to injury and the losing continues until a late season trade for Baron Davis breathes some life back into the franchise. The Cavs end the season with the league’s 2nd worst record and with the 4th pick in the draft, they select Tristan Thompson.… Read more »
I don’t buy that line of thinking at all. Why limit the team in the draft just to see Varejao win some meaningless individual award. We know how good he is. Who cares if others don’t recognize it?
This team has 1 long-term piece (maybe 2 or 3 depending on how you view Thompson and Gee… I like em both), they need talent. Ping pong balls are our friend.
A losing team needs to start winning some time…this year was looking great up until now. I don’t want Anderson injured…I want him out there playing for us.
One of the most important things when rebuilding in a small market, DON’T MAKE MISTAKES in the front office. Risk is certainly a part of trades / the draft. Teams like the Cavs don’t have the luxury of messing it up…
See Hughes, Larry…or Boozer, Carlos. Bad deals / trades / signings hurt you so much more than the big markets.
Colin,
I disagree. A blessing in disguise is when we realize that the Cavs drafted another stud to go with Irving, because of the Varejao injury. All this is right now is extra ping pong balls and hoping that the 4th pick turns out to be worlds better than the 10th pick. Today, I’d rather see Andy in his prime, working towards another all-defensive team.
always [difficult] to replace
John, I’ll try to not beat a dead horse any further into the ground, but I’ll add this – I remember watching the late 80s/early 90s Cavs repeatedly underachieve precisely because they lacked a player like Varejao. At the time, it was pretty clear that one PF who dominated the boards and played tenacious defense (like the Bulls’ Horace Grant at the time, and Varejao now) could have put that team over the top. But they could never find that player. And then after Daugherty’s and Nance’s retirement, they spent a decade trying to find even one talented C/PF of… Read more »
Andy getting injured is a blessing in disguise. Nay, its not even disguised, just a flat-out blessing. Now the Cavs will be able to keep him while plummeting down the standings toward another top-5 pick.
This is the best news of the season.
My theory is a young, rebuilding team can afford and should take some risk in moving an asset that is at peak value. You get 75 cents on the dollar for him now, make your team worse in the short and hopefully better in the long term. Assuming Andy stays healthy, and assuming he is still a solid C at 32/33 when we project to contend, and assuming he will re-sign with the Cavs for an affordable price at that time and not leave for nothing just seems like a lot to be hopeful for…for a guy who was drafted… Read more »
Yeah you really can’t put this into the “injury prone” bin. Could have happened to anyone, his ‘style’ had nothing to do with the injury. This could be a blessing in disguise. This team is going to get hammered, but they will have confidence that they can play with the best teams at full strength. This is going to improve the Cavs lottery chances, give B Scott a chance to see what he has with young guys, and might make C Grant more willing to part with Sessions if he gets a good offer since the Cavs will not be… Read more »
One footnote to the discussion of Anderson’s propensity for good or bad health is that he has played in all 71 Cavs playoff games since he’s been on the team.
John, personally I didn’t think that ignoring Andy’s first two seasons was being selective; it seemed reasonably far enough in the past that looking at the last six years was defensible. Regardless, I’m in the camp that thinks the Cavs should only trade Varejao for a proven young player. Trading him for marginal young players and late 1st round draft picks isn’t sufficient return, no matter what we think of his likelihood of I injury. The Cavs should obviously take calls on just about anyone, but it should take a really good offer to trade Varejao. This injury stinks. Even… Read more »
Brian, Great summary on the state of the Cavs rebuild as it relates to AV’s contract. The most important thing about a rebuild plan is that it has to be a flexible. A team has to be ready to make the right moves at the time that things start coming together. Kyrie has exceeded expectations and may have moved the schedule ahead a little. That may have made players like Andy and possibly even Sessions more valuable to the team’s rebuild, than as trade assets. Grant has collected enough assets, with future draft picks, CAP space and roster flexibility to… Read more »
Trading Anderson would be just stupid. Every team needs a glue/hustle/annoying guy. We have the best one in the league. Unless someone offers us a top 25 player (which Anderson is) or a young up-and-comer along with a unprotected lottery pick (not happening because lottery teams don’t need Anderson), we should not trade him.
John, my point of view on trading him comes down to this question: when do we expect this team to be seriously competitive again? Before the draft lottery last year, when we didn’t know if the Cavs would get the #1 pick, let alone how good Kyrie would be – many said it could take 5 years or longer. With that premise, I’d agree trading Varejao is probably best if it brought an unprotected high lottery pick in the return package. But now we know: (a) the Cavs got Kyrie; and (b) he’s an absolute stud. This changes things. With… Read more »
17 his rookie season due to injury, you’re right. I saw that but mistakingly took the 27 from ESPN game log which is wrong.
I still don’t know what facts make that “below average,” but seems like this whole debate is just a matter of opinion.
Agree to disagree that the smartest move has been and is to keep him as our starting C going forward
The way Anderson Varejao was able to comeback this season has been impressive. He was more active than ever, pulling down 4.4 offensive rebounds a game, the highest average in the league and his 109 offensive rebounds are tied with Greg Monroe for second overall.
So while I don’t disagree that Andy throws his body around a lot, which would seem to put him at higher risk of injury than most players, it has not played out that way over the course of his career.
So while I don’t disagree that Andy throws his body around a lot, which would seem to put him at higher risk of injury than most players, it has not played out that way over the course of his career. His injury history doesn’t appear out of the ordinary to me.
Only 17 of those 27 his rookie year were injury game misses, the other 10 were DNP-CD’s.
All you can conclude is that in an 8-year career, he’s only had 3 significant injuries.. which is actually below average.
John, from what I was able to find online, Andy was inactive due to injury for 17 games his rookie year, due to knee tendinitis and (at a different time) a high ankle sprain. I’m guessing the other games he missed were because Paul Silas wasn’t into playing rookies not named Lebron. His second year, he missed significant time with a dislocated shoulder. After that, he went 4 straight years without a significant injury, despite his style of play. Last year he had plantar fasciitis and eventually a torn tendon in the ankle which cost him 30 games. This year… Read more »
I never said “injury-prone.” Here are the facts, without being selective and leaving info out that doesn’t validate my point: Time missed: 04-05: 27 gms 05-06: 32 gms 06-07: none 07-08: 13 08-09: none 09-10: 6 10-11: 51 11-12: 2 – 41 (say 20 if you avg how long most think he will be out) So, 4 out of 8 seasons w/significant time missed. Not including 07-08 injury which account for 15% of the season. Just because he got hurt on a fluke play doesn’t mean he’s not more at risk to get hurt than other players due to his… Read more »
This really stinks!!! I had a feeling it was broke when he didn’t return to play. This guy is so tough, a sprain would not have mattered to him. He would have played through. We were really starting to see some progress with the Kyrie, Varejao. Lebron was right they really our are 1, 2 punch of the team.
Yeah this was a fluke injury. He’ll come back 100%. We are about to watch the Cavs fall off a cliff – it will make Varejao’s impact readily apparent.
Exactly. “Injury-prone,” to me, describes Greg Oden, or Baron Davis – someone who misses games because their body is constantly breaking down. What happened to Varejao yesterday was just a freakish thing that could have happened to any player, and shouldn’t affect the Cavs’ long-term evaluation of whether he’s a building block or a trade asset.
I see people on the net calling Varejao “injury prone.” Someone smashed his wrist. I’d like to smash your wrist and then tell you it’s not happenstance or cause and effect, but your life force sucking.
Even accounting for last season, varejao had played in 85 percent of possible games from 2006 – 2007 through yesterday (excluding the 21 game holdout).
He got slapped by Gooden, it was kind of fluky really.
Varejao sat out the first 21 games of 2007 – 2008 in a holdout. Aside from those games, from 2006 – 2007 through 2009 – 2010′ he played in 344 of 365 games. Basically he got hurt last year; Until yesterday he hasn’t had a trend of recent major injuries (I.e. injury prone).
Year 4 out of 7 Andy misses significant time. We should definitely get caught up in the moment of his career year and NOT trade him for potential young talent, though
In other news, Semih Erden is starting tonight…
Yeah, definitely disappointing because he was having such a good season. But in the big picture, it could result in the cavs getting another high pick, which they really do need. This season will not be as much fun, but the next could be much better.
sucks.. feel bad for andy. is there no argument to be made for a silver lining though? 1. we’ll get a chance to give our young guys more minutes -> better young guys next year. 2. we’ll be much worse so we’ll be able to pick up a higher lottery spot. 3. andy will be back next year as good as ever, plus our new high lotto pick plus our more polished young guys. beats overachieving this year, getting swept in the first round, and drafting out of the lottery no?