What’s the difference between Jeremy Lamb and Will Barton?
2012-06-14Let’s answer that question later.
The genesis of this post resulted through an amalgamation of three separate ideas. First, a personal desire to re-think Jeremy Lamb. I coincidentally profiled him during the lowest-performing part of his season. That, combined with a lot of Cavs fans showing interest in him, warrants another look from Cavs: the Blog. Second, Fran Fraschilla wrote an article at ESPN where he described his preference for Lamb over Brad Beal, summarizing his rationale for the young Huskie as: “because of his size, length, and effectiveness in an NBA offense’s ‘sweet spot’, the 15 – to 18-ft range.” Given this sentiment from a widely read (i.e. real) draft expert, I wanted to form a solid opinion on his argument, due to the significant impact on Cleveland’s selection. Finally, I started researching for a profile on Memphis Sophomore Will Barton. The summation of these three separate concepts resulted in a variety of mini-research-projects; all worth bringing to you here.
I’ll start by discussing perceived Lamb shortfalls this past season, of which many refer to the “shoot-first” point guards he played with. Viewing his teammates versus Beal’s though, interesting results derive. UConn’s Shabazz Napier and Ryan Boatright averaged 5.8 and 4.0 assists per game, compared to the 4.6 and 2.7 of Erving Walker and Kenny Boynton, respectively. The sum of the Huskie backcourt duo’s usage is 45.4, almost exactly equal to the 45.5 of the Gator guards, except Napier & Boatright’s assist rates were 32.6 and 26.1%, as opposed to the 27.3 and 17.3 of Walker and Boynton. When viewed along with Lamb’s usage of 22.3 and Beal’s at 22.5; the distribution of possessions amongst these trios could not be closer.
As a whole, Florida’s offense produced over one assist more per game than Connecticut’s, but some of that responsibility lies on Lamb, as his 1.7 assists in 37 minutes slightly lagged Beal’s 2.2 in less time. Based on a high-level look, it would seem the shot-creating abilities and offensive distribution of the two teams was very similar.
Another primary support argument for Lamb is his size, but based on combine measurements, Lamb only sports 3/4” height over Beal. His standing reach stretched 2” higher, but when combined with Beal’s advantage in leaping, the two players prove virtually equal. Lamb’s wings spanned three inches longer, but Beal packed on twenty extra pounds of muscle. Which is better? I don’t know, but a scan of the 26 drafted shooting guards with 6’ – 11” wingspan or longer in draftexpress’s database features one player named to one all-defense team. While obviously valuable, great length does not guarantee anything.
So, basically the comparison comes down to production. And they’re pretty equal, despite the thirteen month age discrepancy. Both players registered a PER of 22 and an offensive rating in the mid-110’s, with similar usage. To me, Beal is younger, a better passer & rebounder, and ultimately, my inclination is his demeanor and intangibles result in a superior NBA career….
So now, on to this article’s title question. Read the following two paragraphs and let me know who sounds preferable.
The 9th-ranked player in the high school class of 2010 recently completed his sophomore season; averaging 18 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists, and 2 turnovers in 35 minutes per game on 51 / 35 / 75 shooting. These box score numbers resulted in excellent efficiency of 26.4 PER and an offensive rating of 116 on 25 usage. As a slashing wing, 82% of his points came from inside the arc or at the free throw line. A relatively old sophomore who turned 21 in January; his college production certainly owes something to the added experience, but his team played a relatively difficult NCAA schedule, with the 60th toughest slate of 345 teams. Standing 6’ – 5” barefoot with a 6’ – 10” wingspan and weighing 174 pounds, he tested poorly in the athleticism tests at the combine, however draftexpress describes him as having the “right size, length and athleticism” for the shooting guard position. About his defense in their 2011 – 2012 profile, they said his “athleticism, length and lateral quickness bode well for his transition to the NBA level, but scouts will likely be concerned with his slight frame…his activity level is plus though, as he’s really seemed to focus on this as a sophomore.”
And player number 2…
The 89th-ranked player in the high school class of 2010 recently completed his sophomore season; averaging 18 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists and 2 turnovers in 37 minutes per game on 48 / 34 / 81 shooting. These box score numbers resulted in very good efficiency of 22 PER and a 115 offensive rating on 22 usage. A strong jump shooter; over one-third of his points came outside the arc, but he only shot one free throw for every four field goal attempts. Young for a sophomore, turning 20 in May, his production is impressive against the NCAA’s 16th most difficult schedule. Standing 6’ – 4” barefoot with a 6’ – 11” wingspan and weighing 179 pounds, his athleticism tests excelled at the combine. Draftexpress described him as possessing “nice size for an NBA shooting guard” but “his thin, lanky frame still needs to add strength”. About his defense in 2011 – 2012, they wrote he “has the physical tools to excel, as he has good lateral quickness and instincts and is able to utilize his tremendous wingspan…his energy on this end looked very inconsistent this season, however, not displaying the competitiveness…that will likely be demanded of him at the NBA level.”
Who is the better prospect? Both are similarly sized: thin, long, and athletic. The older player was more productive, albeit against a slightly weaker schedule. His defensive intensity proved more impressive, but time is running out for him to bulk up his stick-thin frame. I guess, flip a coin, right?
If you didn’t realize this, Will Barton receives coverage in the first paragraph, and the second entails Jeremy Lamb. Barton is likely a late-first-round or early-second-round pick, while Lamb receives nearly universal acceptance as a top-ten pick. Obviously the paragraphs above provide no credit to Lamb for his role in delivering UConn an NCAA championship. On the other hand, in last year’s Big East and NCAA Tourneys, were Lamb’s 15 points on 66% true shooting more impressive than Doron Lamb’s 15 points on 65% this year? For either player, is it wise to overly weight a ten-game run compared to a full body-of-work?
If the goal is to be provocative, I’d turn the “Lamb over Beal” argument into a “Barton over Lamb” piece. Like everyone else though, I prefer Jeremy Lamb. As a good-case NBA comparable for Lamb, I’ll offer Jamal Crawford. A similarly sized and athletic player, with an offensive mindset who probably scores 15000 NBA points, along with winning a sixth-man-of-the-year award.
If capable of building a highly complex model to project these things, I think it would tell me that Jeremy Lamb surpasses 15000 career points in 42% of scenarios. Barton does not quite reach those heights, instead besting Crawford only 19% of the time. That difference is not as large as many would think. If the Cavs snag their favorite at #4 and bring Barton on-board later…that is a drafty-day-haul with potential.
Kevin, I’m not so sure Barton’s speed numbers from the combine were that far off from reality. If you remember, last year some people thought that Kyrie’s potential would be limited by his not being the fastest player on the court. Some players, like Kyrie and possibly Barton, play faster than people expect because they simply can dribble the ball and run as fast as they can run without the ball. Add being able to unexpectedly vary speeds and you have a player that can do a lot more than a player who is faster but only w/o the ball.… Read more »
And John Jenkins would also be a great addition to our bench. Man, this draft doesn’t quite have many potential superstars, but I think it’ll have a number of key roleplayers.
It’s funny, but I would be really happy with the draft that draftexpress is giving us. I would prefer MKG to Beal if I had a choice, but otherwise Nicholson, Barton and Miles Plumlee would be great picks for us. Doron Lamb would be another one I’m high on, and I think he’ll be a better, more efficient player than Jeremy Lamb.
At this point, I have come around on Beal. His showing at the combine, i.e., all his numbers, made me feel wayyyy better about drafting him. Quite honestly, I think we’re in a golden position between him and Barnes. Either one gives us an instant starter who, thanks to Kyrie, could avg 15+ a game. I have to believe either Barnes or Beal will be there at 4. Btw, saw an unnamed exec quoted as saying after Davis it’s a bunch of #5 picks. That made me feel better about our draft position…
Did anyone else notice how Barnes did extremely well in the athletic tests? 38″ STANDING vertical (3.5″ more than the next closest players)?!? The fastest 3/4 court sprint in the WHOLE combine?!? I think it will be interesting to see if this changes the #2 and #3 picks, as Barnes tested as a much better athlete than MKG at a similar size and with a much better offensive game. Many updated mock drafts are penciling in Barnes at either the #2 or #3 slot now, bumping Beal or MKG down to the Cavs at #4. Either way, I’m encouraged by… Read more »
Interesting analysis, and it confirms what I’ve been saying about this draft for a long time. It’s not top heavy, outside of Davis, but it is deep. The players available at 20 are really not much different talent wise than the players available at 10.
As for Barton, he probably had a bad day at the combine, because those numbers weren’t good: worst numbers of any shooting guard in the Draftexpress database. But cone drills do not a basketball player make. He may be struggling to put weight on, and overtraining. Who knows.
I think one of the key’s to Beal’s success is his ability to play off the ball. While his great shooting mechanics remind me a lot of Ray Allen, it’s his ability to play off the ball as a 2-guard that would be such a fit for Cleveland.
Best write up so far. Really enjoyed this. Also I am completely on board with what grover13 is saying. I think we get the best player available (SF or SG) at number 4, and then address the other with 24, unless the cavs love Ezeli, or Melo. My real question is this. Has Barton worked out for the cavs yet? Will he? If he is around at 33 I think we should do it. I have been keeping an eye on the stock for Barton, Jenkins, and Doron lamb. I think they would all be able to score, and we… Read more »
I don’t know about MKG to the Wizards. Their stable of young players (including a great drive-and-kick PG) is sorely lacking anyone who can hit a 3-pointer. I think they have a really hard time passing on Beal or Barnes, who are also known for good intangibles although they may not quite show MKG’s leadership. The Bobcats I see a little differently. Although they’re also bereft of shooters (and players who are proficient at any other skill for that matter), they really have nothing of value to start with (Biyombo maybe). So it’s not a matter of building around anyone… Read more »
A comment from Chris Bosh I just heard from Chris Bosh is making me re-think Barton and maybe Nicholoson. When asked about the Thunder’s speed he said the only time he plays against that level of speed may be in practice. Not that I want to advocate combine stats as a reason to draft players, but when the two best teams in the league may be the quickest, it does make you think.
JAG, I have no actual knowledge of this, but it seems that Barton must have gotten a bad start or stumbled during the sprint and agility drills at the combine. Can he really be slower than 304 lb, 22% body fat Renardo Sidney? Watching Barton play, his speed certainly looks fine. I’ve never seen anyone question this ability for him. ESPN calls him “athletic”. nbadraft.net says he has a “quick first step”, “if he gets past you, he’s to the hoop in a hurry” and “can guard positions 1 – 3 with his fluid lateral movements”. Draftexpress said he “excels… Read more »
JAG,
I completely agree about speed though. It was most notable in the Thunder – Spurs series, when OKC’s players always covered so much ground…San Antonio didn’t look accustomed to it.
It’s actually part of the reason that I was low on Nicholson, and also Orlando Johnson.
It will be nice to add some more speed, length, and athleticism to the Cavs next year. I think Barton fits that bill in the 2nd round.
Barton tested quite slow in the combine’s speed and agility tests. That might make him stay more in the range of the Cavs second round picks. I put more stock in what I see on a BB court and such a drop would make him a hard player to pass up at 33 or 34.
There is no way MKG slips by the Wizards. He has the mature intagibles that the franchise desperately needs. I see Robinson being picked up by Charlotte. Barnes or Beal will be a tough decision.
He’s definitely worth a look given our dire situation at the wings, especially if we keep both 2nd rounders. If the Cavs go with MKG or Barnes at #4, they could grab Nicholson, Ezeli, and Barton/Doron Lamb (MKG with Lamb and Barnes with Barton) and call it a day.
Overall, I think Barton could be a solid player. While he’ll never bulk up enough or have the well rounded game to be a core piece of the team, he’s got the scoring ability and newfound defensive toughness to be a solid bench scorer with a good, long NBA career.
FINALLY!! Someone in the Cavs camp finally caught wind of Barton. We’re talking about a SG that was conference player of the year, averaged 8 boards and 3 dimes per game (both unheard of for an NCAA SG). More impressive is his leap statistically as a sophomore- particularly in shooting percentage and in limiting turnovers- which is a testament to his work ethic and coachability. He should be able to be had at #24. He has ideal height and skillset for the position, and can do a little bit of everything. My perfect draft: if MKG is not there at… Read more »