Get ready for it! At number eight in #CavsRank, it’s Kyrie Irving!
2014-03-10
I’m in a tough spot: on the one hand, there’s no question we all know just about everything there is to know about the amazing Kyrie. We’ve all seen him play. We’re acutely aware of his elite skills (and, in the case of his defense, deficiencies), and we can all probably remember at least one spectacular thing Kyrie has done. On the other hand, how can one possibly summarize a player who has just begun to scratch the surface of his career? Therein lies exactly what makes Kyrie so special to Cavs fans; while the tenure has been largely awesome, sometimes average, and at times truly awful, the story has barely been written on what is generally expected to be a special career. A career that, if all goes accordingly, will be one for the Cleveland ages.
Few really knew what to expect from Kyrie when he entered the league. While it was clear he had talent, there were legitimate questions about his ceiling and his durability. There were even some who believed Derrick Williams should’ve been chosen number one overall. Years later, that argument has been firmly put to rest, and, though some of the Kyrie questions have been answered, new ones seem to pop up every day. What is unquestionable, though, is that Kyrie Irving has talent. Supreme, top-tier talent.
Irving’s rookie season was one for the ages. First, Irving’s Rookie PER ranks 22nd all-time. When compared to rookies 20 years or younger, Irving comes in 6th (note: Lebron isn’t even on that list!) and finally, when ranked against all rookie guards ever, Kyrie comes in second to only Chris Paul as the only two rookie PGs to ever have a PER above 20. In short, KI’s offensive rookie season was nothing short of historic, especially given his college experience (or lack thereof). Irving didn’t just stop there, though. He continued to improve in year two, becoming one of the most feared PGs in the league. This past summer, Irving was ranked number eight in ESPN’s NBA Rank – while that’s certainly nothing official, it’s clear Irving’s abilities are highly respected around the NBA. The same goes within Cleveland. And lets not even get started on the whole Uncle Drew campaign.
Irving possesses elite skills: his handle is unparallelled; he is able to shoot from three and attack the rim at will (and efficiently, at that); and, despite a high usage, he doesn’t turn the ball over too often. Almost immediately, young Kyrie showed a penchant for the big shot, ranking first in the NBA in clutch FG% after his rookie year. All this is nothing new to the average Cavs fan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU8cwekPbPU
Which is why it’s not surprising that our illustrious panel collectively ranked a third-year player so high. Still, there is a looming question: What is so intriguing and amazing about Irving that would cause him to be ranked above far more proven, tenured players? The answer is simple and three-fold: Achievement, potential and context.
Achievement: It’s pretty clear, as I outlined above, how much Kyrie has achieved in such a short period of time. Even given some slight regression this season, Kyrie remains a top-tier NBA player whose popularity and name recognition ranks among the elite. If Kyrie retired today, I have no doubt Cavalier fans would remember Kyrie as an extraordinary and impactful. Even more, it’s impossible to believe that anything but his best days lay ahead. Which leads us to…
Potential: as already noted, Kyrie has some elite skills. Though he’s still a very, very, very weak defender, and has yet to show leadership or the ability to actually win, he’s a mere 21 years of age (happy almost-birthday, by the way!) Irving has shined when the lights are brightest, winning the Rising Stars MVP/Three Point Contest/All Star Game MVP in three consecutive years and securing the Rookie Of The Year award in his first. It is not unreasonable, given his track record, to assume that Kyrie’s ascent to elite player will continue.
Context: remember summer 2010? And the following season? (Side note: did anyone else realize the Cavs also owned the record for the second-longest losing streak? How did I miss that?) When the Cavaliers were at their lowest, luck (and some serious Chris Grant magic) landed Cleveland an immediate star. With so much emotional baggage post-decision, it’s understandable that a fanbase would be so quick to love (and believe in) a young, unproven talent. Kyrie’s popularity is as much indebted to his abilities as it is in our collective need to believe in something, anything, to get over a bad breakup. When things were at their lowest, fate gave the Cavs renewed hope. If that’s not reason to celebrate and honor, then nothing is.
So, while this countdown continues, lets take a moment to acknowledge just how important Kyrie Irving really is. Yes, there remain pitfalls to overcome; yes, Irving could very well be gone sooner rather than later; and, yes, as is always the case with youngsters, there’s always the potential for a career to fall flat. But one cannot overlook the impact that Irving has had on the Cavaliers. When things were at their absolute worst Irving provided a spectacular, incomparable glimmer of hope. And three years later, that glimmer continues to shine. Just two weeks away from his 22nd birthday, the world is still eagerly awaiting the next great Kyrie Irving moments – moments that are almost certain to come along quickly in this impressive career. That’s an achievement most NBAers (and nearly all Cavaliers) can only dream of.
Hey Steve…if Kyrie has similar PER and Win Shares over ages 23-25, I’ll never post on the intranets again. Miller was a had 70 starts at Utah, and played almost every game over his first 3 years. Kyrie had 11 games in college, and has barely crossed two seasons worth of actual NBA floor time. The development arc so far in favor of Irving its laughable. Bottom line, comparing 2.5 year careers vs. full careers is stoopid. For fairness, Id like to see how well those guys you list stack up at the same age…most were still enjoying campus life.… Read more »
Grover – in only a general order – Lebron, Price, Daugherty, Z, Nance, Brandon, Hot Rod, Carr, Smith, Free, Varejao, Campy, Chones, Miller, Kemp. I care more about winning games that count in the standings than MVP’s in exhibitions.
grover – a general order thrown together in a couple minutes: Lebron, Price, Daugherty, Z, Nance, Brandon, Hot Rod, Carr, Smith, Campy, Free, Varejao, Chones, Miller, Kemp.
In three seasons with the Cavaliers, Miller put up a 20.2 PER and 34.7 Win Shares, Irving has a 20.9 PER and 15.2 Win Shares. I’d have them just about the same, and would slightly lean toward Miller. I’ll take defense in games that count in the standings over MVPs in exhibitions every time.
grover – a general order thrown together in a couple minutes: Lebron, Price, Daugherty, Z, Nance, Brandon, Hot Rod, Carr, Smith, Campy, Free, Varejao, Chones, Miller, Kemp.
In three seasons with the Cavaliers, Miller put up a 20.2 PER and 34.7 Win Shares, Irving has a 20.9 PER and 15.2 Win Shares. I’d have them just about the same, and would slightly lean toward Miller. I’ll take defense in games that count in the standings over MVPs in exhibitions ten times out of ten.
Funny….I see a lot of people saying Kyrie is ranked too high….but few of those people had a strong argument for who should be ranked higher. – Kevin Johnson? REALLY? He was in Cleveland for what, 2 years? – Andre Miller? A solid all around PG, yes. His career achievements (wins, assists, etc.) are marked more by longevity than anything. Not that consistency and longevity shoud be ignored….but can you really have a guy who’s never made the All-Star game higher than a guy who earned the MVP at 21? JHill nailed it. The argument against a guy in his… Read more »
I’d give him the max without a second thought. Not that I wouldn’t try negotiating first and seeing if I could get him for less than that, but if a max contract was the outcome, I certainly wouldn’t quibble.
I think I’d offer him the Max. He’s one of the few players that the Max is probably a fair contract. guys like Lebron, Durant, Harden, Dwight, the Max is highway robbery. Also Kyrie will probably continue to develop and turn into a star. He’s 21. He’s going to be good for a long time as long as he stays healthy.
So . . . what I’m hearing is that the Cavs should not offer a max contract to him.
That doesn’t mean I don’t believe that Irving won’t be better than Miller and Mo. It just means that Mo and Miller accomplished more as cavaliers than Irving has as a Cavalier. Mo was the #2 for some of the best teams in the history of the franchise. Miller won more games and had some very good years averaging 16p 10a 4.7r in his last year and 15, 8 and 4 the year before. Besides winning rookie of the year none of Irvings accoplishments have anything to do with the Cavs. They revolve around all-star weekend and Uncle Drew videos
T Irving is no where near good enough to be a lead dog on a contender right now. I don’t think he’ll ever be but right now he can’t even be a lead dog on a playoff team let alone a contender or a champion. This is the first season that Chris Paul has ever been on a contender and he might not even be the lead dog on his team anymore. Irving is no where near as good as Chris Paul. Point guards just aren’t that important anymore. Having an Elite pg does not make you a contender without… Read more »
I think this ranking is more of a look into how few notable players we’ve actually had on the Cavs over the years than anything.
Maybe we should have kept Mo and traded Irving. I can see Mo as the lead dog on a championship team, sure. Andre Miller too.
Only in Cleveland, lol.
If giving the city Hope and having potential are Criteria then Kemp should be higher than KI and maybe Jabari Parker. Also I think Andre Miller and Marc Price make it a mimme that he’s not the top point guard of the last 25 years. Hell Mo has a case to be ahead of KI
Shawn Kemp’s 3 years were better than Irving’s past 3 years imo.
KI’s Career ended now he’d be 30 or 40 in my book. Him ahead of andy and everyone else in the top 20 is nuts
I laugh at these arguments the same way I laughed at the idiots who whined about Shaq as a 50 greatest so early in his career.
Kyrie is a beast, and if he leaves I hope to God everyone enjoys the Tristan era, SMH.
And this might be that present day bias I brought up on why Andy was ranked so high. As far as senior superlatives go, Irving has more individual awards than most other Cavs. Career totals and actual wins are his short coming, but that’s a biproduct of his youth. I could see the argument of Irving replacing James so quickly as the face of the franchise giving him a bump in the rankings. The franchise was at all all-time low after James left and a year later we had another darling of the league. Irving is the reason stomached the… Read more »
little strange to see a guy who’s only been with team and in league 3 years on this list…this isn’t a nate thurmond type deal where its a veteran getting last legs with a team….figure its premature to place him on here since a lot can happen (either good or bad) to affect his place in Cavalier history
Ryan,
Have you heard of Mark Price and Kevin Johnson? If KI continues to develop, he will be in their class, but no one would put him there yet.
http://www.gotbuckets.com/statistics/rapm/2014-rapm/
RAPM Has Irving ranked as the 15th worst defender in the League, giving up a regularized, adjusted -3.08 plus/minus per 100 possessions. Even worse, most of the guys he’s up against in this category are low minutes players. The only guy with more minutes this season who’s worse? Brandon Jennings.
Irving’s bad offense early this season is dragging down his total RAPM numbers for the year, too.
PRO: One of X number of Cavs players to be offered a max contract should probably get him in the top 10.
CON: The max contract is based on future expectations (which is based on past performance).
I can’t wait for the debate here when LeBron shows up on the list!
David – the last I saw, he ranked right around 300th, which is only 40th percentile if you include all the guys who are borderline NBA/D league. I guess that’s acceptable, they have played a NBA game, but we’re still saying that Irving is clearly below average defensively when we include a bunch of guys who wear a suit far more often than they dress for NBA Games. Lipstick on a pig.
True, if he had a legitimate rim protector things would look better for him. But they would look better because the rim protector is covering up Irving’s defensive shortcomings. That doesn’t really make the case for his defensive fortitude. Just watching him play defense, I think the synergy numbers make him seem like a lot better defender than he really is.
he gives up .91 PPP per Synergy. puts him in about the 40th percentile. It’s not a perfect stat (there isn’t a perfect defensive stat) because it doesn’t take into account his defensive system or the players around him. That goes for his on/off numbers as well.
if the Cavs had a rim protector, or another perimeter defender to lessen his burden while he goes out there as the only offensive option the team has, things would probably look a lot better for him.
“Metrics like Synergy indicate that Kyrie’s defensive issues are overblown”
What? Synergy has him as one of the worst defenders in the NBA, allowing just about as many points by his man as he gets himself. The Cavs defense is 9 points per 100 possessions better with Irving on the bench. His defensive issues, which are a big reason why this team has yet to win 30 games in a season with him, are way underblown by Cavs fans.
Kyrie is a 2 time all star, all star starter, had one of the three or four most impressive rookie seasons of all time, plays on a team that has Tristan Thompson with the 2nd most points of any Cavalier this season, and still has a great assist/turnover ratio. Metrics like Synergy indicate that Kyrie’s defensive issues are overblown. There are a lot of doubts about how important point guard defense is anyway given hand check rules.
he still has a lot to prove, sure. but this ranking isn’t absurd.
Perhaps I should rather assert that the grounding of statistics associated with an inconsistent, modified, or rather, lack of criteria renders the list unappealing.
And I would agree: Price at starting PG. No hesitation there. Give Irving another decade to see if that response provokes doubt.
I agree with Steve. I think the vague assertion of “simply the best Cavaliers players” of all time renders this list weak. There is an inconsistency in criteria. I appreciate the statistics and achievements reasoning; however, I do not care for the modifications of other criteria such as, “Hey, this guy gives the city hope!” Or, “Hey, this guy has potential!” I don’t think it’s fair to ground statistics with potential and hope with players who are no longer able to provide further potential and/or hope.
Is this to high? YES! He has done nothing and is the sole single connection to this current state of losing. Never had a winning season. Never made the playoffs. He his not making his teammate better and makes and person willing to dribble the ball down court look like a star with his defense. His only major focus seem to be keeping his scoring average above 20+ points. He does not want to be in Cleveland and he is a point guard (the most overrated position in the modern NBA.) No! He made basketball relevant in Cleveland post LBJ.… Read more »
“You’re telling me that if you had to choose the all-time starting five for the Cavs that you wouldn’t take Kyrie at PG?”
Price, without a doubt. To use another advanced metric, .173 WS/48 as a Cavalier to Irving’s .126. But I think this is about more than Irving’s perceived ability at the moment, which is wildly unequal to his actual success on the court. I think simply that he only has 171 games as a Cavalier should keep him outside the top 10.
“There’s obviously a reason for that” That the group is really bad at picking the best Cavaliers of all time or that the criteria was too vague to produce anything truly meaningful? The defense of Irving doesn’t seem to go much beyond “he’s really exciting to watch on offense!1!” Yes, the PER numbers are noteworthy, but they’re also noteworthy as a jumping off point for a discussion on how valuable an individual’s PER actually is. For all of Kyrie’s PER, that hasn’t translated into successful basketball for this team. It misses a lot of glaring holes in Kyrie’s game, which… Read more »
Bloggers –
Ignore the critics. The 8 spot for Kyrie is incredibly justifiable and fair.
Steve –
You’re telling me that if you had to choose the all-time starting five for the Cavs that you wouldn’t take Kyrie at PG?
Scott Raab and I ranked Kyrie lowest – we both had him 13th best. Everyone else was higher.
Matthew –
There was no specific criteria for picking guys. The list was simply the best Cavaliers – at what isn’t defined. Kyrie is an elite talent and gives the city hope – those are pretty critical to a great player.
Steve – I didn’t rank Kyrie highest among those polled. I thought this would be an interesting discussion – believe it or not, almost everyone had him in the top 10. There’s obviously a reason for that.
I agree with most of the comments—-as good / or as much potential that kyrie has –it has been a ” short ride ” so far for him—-IF he is still a cav and IF he continues to work hard to reach his potential then maybe the next time this poll is taken kyrie is deserving AND QUITE POSSIBLY DESERVING A HIGHER SPOT
Nate – If Mallory wasn’t completely on board with the article, he probably shouldn’t put his name on the byline. I get that it’s not exactly journalistic standards here, but when you put your name at the top of the page, you open yourself up to be the one who’s critiqued.
Yea, Irving is too high on this list. Have a little more respect in the old timers!
This article is prefaced with, “A career that, if all goes accordingly, will be one for the Cleveland ages.”
This statement totally contradicts the list here of all time Cavalier greats by twisting it into an “if all goes accordingly” list.
In fairness to Mallory, please note that he’s not the one who ranked Kyrie this high. The ranking was done by a large group of bloggers and sports writers from all the major Cavs blogs, and some other media members.
I have to agree with Steve; holy jumping-the-gun, batman!
I’m sorry, but this is nuts. He’s still in just his third year, and his first topping 60 games. He’s such a garbage defender that he undoes a lot of good he does on offense. He hasn’t stepped up and been the leader this franchise needed to top even 30 wins. Not one playoff game. The only way you get him to number eight is to count all the things you hope and dream he can become. And some of those things we were hoping and dreaming during his rookie year that he would be in his third year, and… Read more »
He played his heart out against the Knicks. I felt so bad for him not to get the help he needs from 1) the coach’s rotations 2) stronger commitment and effort from the starters to play better . Hawes has been great so he’s the exception .