A Post-Draft Fireside Chat
2012-06-28
In the wake of this draft we’re trying to make sense of things. Kevin and Colin are hanging out in an Edenic garden/irradiated wasteland sitting on giant, colorful toadstools/the carcasses of loved ones discussing the implications of whatever the hell happened tonight.
Kevin: Obviously this was not a “best-case” scenario, but I’m going to start with a glass-mostly-full take. How did the Cavs respond to missing out on their two favorites: Michael Kidd-Gilchrist and Brad Beal? They answer the question: what would a Russell Westbrook and Kyrie Irving backcourt look like?
In May 2008, the UCLA sophomore was projected as a non-lottery pick. As an uber-athletic combo-guard, playing next to stud freshman Kevin Love, and upperclass stalwarts Darren Collison and Luc Richard Mbah a’ Moute, his college playing days passed by as a high quality role player. In his second NCAA season, he averaged 13 points, 4, rebounds and 4 assists on 47 / 34 / 71 shooting. Draftexpress listed his “best case” as Leandro Barbosa. Mainly lauded for his athleticism and defensive intensity, questions existed about his position and offensive polish. But then, a funny thing happened. He started creeping up draft boards, by late June reaching the mid-lottery on most mock drafts. On draft day, something CRAZY happened; “GM Sam Presti did a solid job to resist the temptation to add (a more highly regarded player) and take a player with considerably more upside at the fourth pick in Russell Westbrook”. The local media was surprised, as everyone thought the team may trade up or down. Most were left scratching their heads.
Well, you see where this is going. Four years later, it’s deja vu, except Cleveland shocks their fans by selecting an athletic combo-guard at #4.
And really, the two players have some similarities. Admittedly, Westbrook was young for a sophomore, nearly one year younger than Waiters on draft day. But both measured 6’ – 2” with a 6’ – 7” wingspan, except Waiters packs on thirty extra pounds. Westbrook is more athletic. Per 40 minutes pace adjusted, the 16, 5 & 5 of Westbrook and the 21, 4 and 4 of Waiters match-up favorably for Waiters. Waiters’s 26 PER and 116 offensive rating with 26 usage thrashes Westbrook’s collegiate numbers of 19, 110, and 23. Both players gained praise for their defense, while carrying offensive question marks.
What are your thoughts? Is this a disaster? What do you think of my best case scenario: Kyrie and Russ Westbrook? Is it feasible from Waiters? How does that work on the basketball court?
Colin: I’m from the Syracuse area, so I’m somewhat familiar with Waiters. It’s true: he’s Westbrook-y. That’s the comparison people make, at least. (You should know that the Syracuse basketball team is pretty much the main draw sports-wise in central New York; they tend to overrate their own out of love and boredom.) I hesitate to compare anyone to Westbrook because he’s a.) one of the very best players in the NBA, and b.) probably a singular talent. But Waiters is strong, fast, good with the ball in his hands, and a streaky shooter. He can defend when he wants to because he has great lateral quickness and active hands. I understand the pick, I think. He might have the highest ceiling of any player not picked in front of him. He’s a bit of a jerk, and has some work ethic issues; if he can get his head right, we’ll see what he can do.
How does he fit in next to Irving? That’s the tough question. Obviously, when Westbrook (and we’re really using “Westbrook” here under erasure) was brought into the OKC organization, the idea was to make him into a point guard. What would have happened if he remained at his more natural position? That’s a rabbit hole I can’t see far enough down, really. The pick isn’t a disaster. I really don’t think that. It’s just that Chris Grant has put his zeppelin-sized testicles on the table, and proclaimed “Come at me, bro! I stake my reputation on Dion Waiters being a very good player.” We will see, CG. I respect your sense of daring.
Kevin: Fair enough. To a large extent, the point I was trying to make is: Westbrook was a surprise. One month before the draft, people weren’t saying “Russ Westbrook will be a top-ten NBA player”. A large majority weren’t saying it on draft day. Also, there is a decent amount of similarity in them as players, as far as their skills, draft trajectory, etc.
You call him a “bit of a jerk.” I’ve read he thinks of himself as the best player on the court. That could be an issue next to Kyrie, who we all plan on being the best player on the court. But really, isn’t that an interesting dynamic of the Westbrook/Durant teaming?
Obviously Waiters will end up going the shooting guard route of a “combo guard”. I think an aggressive, scoring guard can work well next to Kyrie, and is kind of what was hoped for in Beal. You could even stagger Waiters off the bench, like a Harden, to keep a strong scoring threat on the court at all times. He’s a pretty well-rounded offensive player; in addition to his aggressive, attacking nature, his three-point shooting percentage finished better than fellow sophomore Harrison Barnes and the next-Ray Allen. The Cavs definitely got faster and more skilled today than they were yesterday. Even defensively, Avery Bradley only stands 6′ – 2″ and wasn’t he a lock-down two-guard revelation this year? I’m not sure Waiters’s size is completely prohibitive, and think Irving and Waiters form an intriguing next-decade backcourt.
Definitely props to Chris Grant. He went all-in. Speaking of, what do you think of the Tyler Zeller trade?
Colin: I should clarify: I don’t consider Waiters’s confidence to be a problem. I’m glad he thinks he’s better than he is. I think his jerk-ness is wrapped up in the fact that he sometimes doesn’t work hard. SU coach Jim Boheim called him the most talented guard he has ever recruited (high praise, though not quite as lofty as it sounds; it’s not like SU is a guard factory), but he sat the bench his freshman year, then threatened to transfer. Boheim essentially called his bluff, saying, “Fine, transfer. Maybe a change of scenery will be good for you.” After this incident, Waiters settled down and started to work harder in practice, care about defense more, etc. The work ethic thing is what bothers me. I like his arrogance. I like players with a little bit of “eff you” in them; the Cavs are lacking in that department.
Tyler Zeller’s a nice player. I have family that teaches at UNC (the Cavs really picked players in my wheelhouse tonight), so I’ve watched Zeller somewhat regularly for the four years he’s been at Chapel Hill. To sum him up in terms of tangible skills: he can post up a little bit; he runs well; he’s got pretty good hands and a soft touch around the basket. More crucially, I think he’s a good fit next to Tristan Thompson because he can knock down an open 14-footer. He’ll help the Cavs space the floor a little on offense; the paint won’t be so clogged for Irving and Waiters. He’s a little light, muscle-wise. He’ll get pushed around by some of the bigger centers in the league. But he’s a solid “5”. I think the Cavs overpaid for him in terms of value–there were guys like Moultrie, PJ3, Barton, etc. available at the end of the first round and they lost the opportunity to take fliers on guys early in the second round–but Zeller will compliment TT pretty well moving forward. And overpaying to get the guys they like seems to be Chris Grant’s philosophy when it comes to the draft. Which is fine; he just better damn well be right about who he’s acquiring.
Kevin: It sounds like Waiters turned a corner during his freshman season. This year, he was the best player on one of the five best teams in college basketball, and seems to have willingly accepted a back-up role. Certainly, he could have acted out much worse. I can’t speak specifically to his work ethic, but his defense was strong this year and to me, that’s a solid indicator of motor, intangibles, etc.
On to Zeller; my final “favorite” scenario this morning was Waiters and Zeller at 6 and 11. Obviously the day played out as 4 and 17 instead, but the Tar Heel seven-footer is a solid addition to the team. He did not shoot much from the perimeter at UNC, but did make 81% of his free throws, and in limited attempts, he was actually the 4th best outside shooter of 26 big men that Draft Express looked at. Pairing him with Andy and TT, could look really good. Maybe shades of Zydrunas.
Zeller has always been praised for how quickly he runs the court, and his “measurables” came in strong. Of 44 centers, he was 3rd in the agility drill, 8th in speed and 9th in vertical leap. I don’t love combine measurements, but when they match up with solid production that’s always an additional level of assuredness that a player can survive in the NBA. So in summary, today was ballpark of one of the ideal draft day scenarios I laid out this morning. Pretty hard for me to complain.
I agree there were a lot of likable players left at 24, 33 and 34. Will passing up Perry Jones III, Doron Lamb and Jae Crowder look regrettable in a few years when compared to Zeller? The NBA is definitely a game of quality over quantity. Cavs management accumulated all these draft picks to make moves like this.
Colin: We should probably address the “value” aspect of the draft. I’m actually one of the people who thinks value is overrated in the draft: get the guys you like, and if you pick them a few slots too high, so be it. But this seems like an extreme example of that. Was Waiters going before seven? I can only assume Chris Grant worked the phones to trade down and couldn’t. And was Zeller worth sacrificing the opportunity to take late first-round/early second-round fliers? Your answer can totally be “yes,” but I wonder what your thoughts are on that.
Kevin: I really liked the depth of this draft and was excited about the potential of the 24, 33 and 34 picks. I had Zeller ranked top-ten though; so personally, at 17, the value of those later picks is pretty appropriate for him.
It’s hard to answer the question on draft day. Does PJ3 make Kevin Durant expendable? That’s a joke, but you know what I’m saying. Some really intriguing talents existed at the later picks, but are they just exciting draft day thoughts, or real NBA players? When the rumor was #4 and #24 for #2, I took the tenet that Chris Grant needs to get his guys. It appears that’s what the organization did, and it matches up well with “my guys”, so I’m ready to see what 2012 – 2013 brings.
With Waiters, yeah, I assume no other team wanted to trade up, or maybe Cleveland thought Portland really liked him at #6. If there were other options to get DW; surely those routes were explored. I enjoyed the back-and-forth, but it’s about my bed time. Remember, I’m an old man.
Next year, Cleveland can suit up Irving – Waiters – Gee – Varejao – Zeller with Gibson, Casspi and Thompson off the bench. Add a back-up point guard, and that’s a fun, young team. Not too small, with decent floor spacing, ball-handling and defense. They still have a lot of cap flexibility and plenty of draft picks moving forward.
This draft night did not work out like anyone hoped for, but ultimately, I think it’s all right.
Colin: As old man Kevin dozes—I begrudge him nothing; he has children and a wife to attend to; I’m just a responsibility-less dude sitting on my couch with a fuzzy black cat asleep on my foot—I relent: I’m okay with this? That’s the proper inflection, I think. On a day when dreams were stepped on like an Edokko beneath Godzilla’s reptilian sole, I think the Cavs made the best of it. I assume there were no reasonable options in terms of moving down, and that they decided they liked Waiters a lot and so drafted him where they knew he was theirs.
For the sake of pointing out something that feels obvious to me: Zeller is an admission that the front office botched Valanciunas pick, no? We flubbed on the last talented center that came our way, so we’re going to make sure we land a decent one in this draft. That’s a great strategy, if not the ideal one. It is better to acknowledge your mistakes while you can still remedy them. Tristan Thompson and Tyler Zeller might develop into an above-average frontcourt. Zeller’s set of skills will allow Thompson to focus on rebounding, shot-blocking (still very much a work in progress), and finding baskets by cutting into the paint. Now, Tyler, if you could hit the weight room a little bit, just so you don’t embarrass yourself against Roy Hibbert, that’d be great.
Final point: the Cavs didn’t move Varejao for a draft pick/picks. He was involved in a lot of trade rumors both before and during the draft; I’m pretty positive, from what I’ve heard, that he was dangled to various teams. He’s a great guy, and one of my favorite Cavaliers, but he’s more valuable now than he’ll ever be. He will be 30 when the season starts. What are the Cavs doing with him, exactly? Will he be around after next season’s trade deadline? I thought he was going to be gone six to eight months ago, which shows what I know. Perhaps they conceive of him as the perfect mentor the young big men they’ve acquired. Or perhaps he could leave tomorrow. Just some food for thought.
“@cranky – yes, Simmons is reductive and narrative-driven. However, your argument seems more tailored against MKG or Drummond than Waiters – who is skilled with the ball in his hands. Not just athletic.” ? I’m not arguing against Waiters. I just posted a bunch of stuff Chad Ford said about how good he is. I was against the pick last night, because it was so far out of left field that i was in shock. I’m all in on the Waiters bandwagon now. No reason not to be. The more i read about Beal the more i liked him, but… Read more »
okay so Irving, Waiters, Gee, Thompson, Varejao, Zeller, Gibson. I think it’s clear our team is about to be made up of a majority of quick players with clearly defined roles on a fluid athletic offense. This excites me greatly.
Giving up both 2nd rounders was a little steep. Still, can’t argue with the players they got.
If we re-frame the draft slightly, I think everyone would view it as a complete success:
Suppose we had traded 4, 24, 32, 33 to Portland for 6 and 11, and then taken Waiters at 6 and Zeller at 11. I bet most people would be fired up because Waiters somehow “feels more valuable” at 6. Instead we swapped 4, 24, 32, 33 for 4 and 17 and got Waiters and Zeller anyway.
Getting two consenus top 12 guys from 4, 24, 32, 33 is a GOOD thing.
KJ – yes and it will happen RIGHT AWAY. Remember the first Cavs Pistons game when Brandon Knight outplayed Kyrie Irving?
Thanks James. At least we didn’t end up with barnes. I’m happy about that. I’m just worried that we’ll regret not offering up more for beal/mkg, or regret not take Robinson. I had a feeling yesterday it was going to go Davis, MKG, Beal 1-2-3… @Dave, Waiters is definitely a scorer. He averaged a point every 2 minutes he was on the court pretty efficiently without a great PG setting him up. He gets his own shot off and isn’t hesitant to dump it off if he sees that the collapsing defense has opened up a teammate, but he’s definitely… Read more »
KJ, actually I don’t think anyone unhappy with the Waiters pick thinks he won’t tear it up this season. How can he not? They have no one but Kyrie who can score. It’s really the Cavs (and Waiters) approach to the draft. I agree with cranky on the simmons thing. That was more a microcosm of that one finals than what we can see going forward. Both those teams were assembled in incredible fashion (luck or scheming). And as we can see by OKCs pick its hard to keep getting those guys. PJ3 pick doesn’t strike me as a guy… Read more »
Oh and one more thing, can’t wait to see the heads explode when Jonas goes against Zeller! LOL! We may have to put people on suicide watch…
Btw, I will still say that despite the hype, MKG was at LEAST as risky of a pick as Waiters was. I think he is more of risk, to be honest. I know he had a TON of supporters on here so will be very interesting to see how he develops…
Dude, the Big V thing… please stop. He is still a complete unknown and TT was a great pick in a weak draft.
@Kj
Agree re: Zellers. If he is a solid rotation player on a contender, I will be satisfied.
I’d just like to note that this thread has become very important for posterity reasons: All of the Waiters supporters can use these posts as hard evidence that they fully supported the pick when it was made, not just after he starts tearing it up.
I love the pick and am very optimistic about the future of this organization.
@cranky, I mentioned it earlier in the thread and that is some talk today that Sac for sure was gonna take Waiters w/the 5th pick. People who say he could’ve been around later are KIDDING themselves…btw, seriously we have to be careful over-rating Zeller. Keep expectations low on him and then we hopefully can be pleasantly surprised…
Waiters. It seems that people are mad about Waiters. If you transfer his stats to NBA time he is dang good. He is athletic and fast, and if you hadn’t noticed, that is the direction of the Cavs, going fast up and down the court. Even the thought about we should have traded down to get him…. First a team has to agree to a deal to trade, and for as much trading was speculated that didn’t happen, it doesn’t seem that it was ever an option. Secondly, it has been reported that Robinson was a 2nd option for the… Read more »
Sorry to continue harping on about John Hollinger, but I think he is one of the most reliable sources of basketball analysis and he loves the pick (appeal to authority, I know, but I really don’t care). Here is the complete list of his top 10 wings from 2003-2012 and each player’s corresponding rating: 1.) Kevin Durant – 17.67 2.) Dwayne Wade – 17.05 3.) Carmelo Anthony – 16.63 4.) Danny Granger – 15.43 5.) Rudy Gay – 15.10 6.) Luol deng – 14.46 7.) DION WAITERS – 14.12 8.) Josh Childress – 13.37 9.) Kawhi Leonard – 13.21 10.)… Read more »
@cranky – yes, Simmons is reductive and narrative-driven. However, your argument seems more tailored against MKG or Drummond than Waiters – who is skilled with the ball in his hands. Not just athletic.
But while we’re using quotes from that Simmon vs. Ford mock draft, how about Ford’s take on Waiters (here explaining why the Kings should take him): -“On a team of soft jump shooters, they have no one who can take over the game in crunch time. I think Dion Waiters is the one guy who can do that in this draft, so that’s my pick for them. If all of the guards played one-on-one in a tournament, I think Waiters would come out on top.” – “(T)here aren’t many players in the NBA that can get to the rim against… Read more »
@James A. – is that you, John? Kyrie was the closest thing to a sure thing because everyone decided to forget how elite of a shooter he was/is. They concentrated instead on how he didn’t have Derrick Rose’s first step. Is there ANYONE outside of Washington that would rather have John Wall than Kyrie Irving? Hollinger pointed out the obvious – Kyrie was an elite shooter and ball handler and the limited stats backed that up. Oh look, he’s almost a 50-40-90 guy as a ROOKIE! Waiters has a larger sample size than Kyrie – and he has promising per… Read more »
“Cranky – also in need of a ‘come on’ pointing out all the role players in the finals. Get serious the best four players were LeBron, Durant, Westbrook, and Wade. 3 of those guys are athletic slashers that can score on anyone in isolation. Sounds like Waiters M.O. Advanced stats say he’s the best wing in the draft.” Yes, the best players on these teams are obviously freakish, other-worldly athletes. What i’m saying is, even the best two teams in the NBA needed to have meaningful contributions from “unathletic” (in relation to the current NBA) role players to get as… Read more »
“Cranky – also in need of a ‘come on’ pointing out all the role players in the finals. Get serious the best four players were LeBron, Durant, Westbrook, and Wade. 3 of those guys are athletic slashers that can score on anyone in isolation. Sounds like Waiters M.O. Advanced stats say he’s the best wing in the draft.” Yes, the best players on these teams are obviously freakish, other-worldly athletes. What i’m saying is, even the best two teams in the NBA needed to have meaningful contributions from “unathletic” (in relation to the current NBA) role players to get as… Read more »
Sorry, my previous post was @Matt
@Kevin
Unfortunately, Hollinger doesn’t list the players that made the All-Star game in that article. However, I was able to piece together from the archives that the list includes: Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Luol Deng, Danny Granger and Dwayne Wade.
It bears noting that Hollinger called Kyrie Irving a “sure thing” last year and we all know how that turned out…
According to the Grant article on ESPN, Zeller wasn’t worked out or even looked at by the Cavs. Waiters was their top man if you believe what they said. I’m starting to come around on Waiters skills but Cleveland has no scorers. I think you put any of those top offensive draft picks on it and they score 15-20 a night. His attitude still scares me. Shutting down workouts because you got a call that you might go lottery? At #13 as rumored? Don’t you want to be #2, 3, or 4? Is everyone okay with this approach? It just… Read more »
I Also heard we got Kelenna Azubuike in this deal. Where does he fit in?
Also, Barnes is not a wing. He’s a stretch 4.
Ah, sorry KJ. Double posted your link
This is a must read from Windy on ESPN. I’m feeling good about these picks (unless the Cavs PRs are just playing a post draft blinder): http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2012/story/_/id/8111377/2012-nba-draft-cleveland-cavaliers-scenes
John Surna, William Buford, Hollis Thompson, Scott Machado, Tony Mitchell, and Drew Gordon would be good Free Agent signings.
Oops! Looks like I mentioned the Hollinger thing in another thread. My bad…
Lots if people mentioned the Hollinger stats including me…anyway, good peek inside the “war room” last night from Windy: http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2012/story/_/id/8111377/2012-nba-draft-cleveland-cavaliers-scenes
Matt – it’s not guarantee, but since he started doing draft rater, he’s mostly been correct about quality wings. It’s big men and PG that are harder to project.
must read: Cavs got the guys they wanted from the top down. http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2012/story/_/id/8111377/2012-nba-draft-cleveland-cavaliers-scenes
James A, who were the 5 that made the all star game? Its nice to see, I trust Hollinger’s work more than most, but as always, its no gaurantee of anything.
Hollinger had Waiters ranked as the fourth overall prospect, by the way.
Lots of good points made by people defending the Waiters pick. Here’s another that hasn’t been mentioned yet: THE John Hollinger had Waiters as his highest-rated wing in the entire draft.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2012/story/_/page/PERDiem-120618/nba-2012-nba-draft-rater (Insider account required)
Under his metric, only eight prospects had as high a rating in the previous decade and, of those eight, five made the All-Star Game. The three that didn’t are Rudy Gay, Kawhi Leonard and Josh Childress. I like those odds.
Just more ammunition to take down the uninformed Waiters-haters.
Great back and forth.
CG wanted Beals or MKG to slide. It didn’t happen, so he picked up Jeff Sessions w/o the bad habits, and, Z II.
B+ with upside. Yes, hold onto Andy–so he can enjoy his dramatically athletic, speedy, and, D-focused new surroundings.
imo
grover13 – you had me nodding until “elite center”. Come on. Cranky – also in need of a ‘come on’ pointing out all the role players in the finals. Get serious the best four players were LeBron, Durant, Westbrook, and Wade. 3 of those guys are athletic slashers that can score on anyone in isolation. Sounds like Waiters M.O. Advanced stats say he’s the best wing in the draft. All we can do is critique what was picked given all the information. You can’t start coming up with all the reasons it was a terrible pick because of what you… Read more »
Glad to see the blog has chilled out a bit. I thought the Cavs draft was solid. Waiters will defenitely take pressure off Kyrie to score. More importantly, I think it allows the Cavs to have Kyrie at the 3 pt. line while Waiters sets him up. Also, thank you Colin for mentioning Zellers ability to hit a mid-range shot and create some space for others. I think this hasn’t received enough attention. TT must play close the basket. Having another player like that would have made it more difficult for Kyrie and Dion to score in the paint. I… Read more »
As far as people bagging Zeller: if his name was Tylerious Zelerovski from Russia, or Tylon Watkins Zeller, he would’ve gone in the top ten.
Roosevelt- I have to take issue with your take on the Zeller pick. Don’t get me wrong; he’s no All-Star. But “it’s easy to find a 7-footer who can rack up 11 and 8 a night” is a naive statement. You know how many centers in the league averaged those stats last year? EIGHT. That’s it. (Chandler, Jefferson, Hibbert, M. Gasol, Monroe, Gortat, Duncan, Bynum). And, if I wanted to nitpick, three of those guys are under 7-ft (Jefferson, Monroe, Gortat). So, only five NBA centers meet your seemingly “average” criteria. Sounds to me like we just picked up an… Read more »
Here’s the thing I don’t really get. Even the publications that are SLAMMING the Cavs for picking Waiters had them going 6th or 7th in their OWN mock drafts. And some (DraftExpress for example) just hated him because they couldn’t compile statistical data on him because he wouldn’t do workouts (never underestimate the wrath of a journalist scorned!). So…a guy goes 4th…that you had at 6 or 7 anyway…and somehow it’s a completely awful pick? Granted I agree that the Cavs could have traded down and still got him, but nobody was trading in the lottery so it’s a moot… Read more »
Man, I feel like people are getting this draft kinda backwards. That is, over-hyping Zeller and under-rating Waiters. I dunno how many times I have to post quotes from scouts and advanced stats and whatnot to show that Waiters was ABSOLUTELY near the top of EVERYONE’S draft board!!! He didn’t workout because just like Davis he DIDIN’T HAVE TO! Teams still loved him and were going to pick him high anyway!! Sure, maybe those teams were wrong and the advanced stats are wrong (though I SEROIOUSLY doubt that) but just because you didn’t read as much about Waiters as you… Read more »
Grover, he 1.8 steals in 24 minutes, while not otherworldly, is more than solid, especially since he did it without gambling too much (still limited his opponent to 33% fg! and on one of the best team defenses in the country) Also, 2 assists in 24 minutes is good for a sg. Rebounding and blocks? bleh… Inconsistant Jumper? He hit over 50% in catch and shoot situations, and 37% overall from 3. As far as sharing the ball, it is an issue that will need to be sorted out. I am still of the opinion that the best offense is… Read more »
I like the Zeller move. Would I have preferred to just trade the 24 and 33? Yes, but I’d rather have Zeller than to say no because I want to keep the 34 pick. Good move.
Also, he’s lack of muscle is over-emphasized. He’s only 13 lbs lighter than Hibbert… give him 3 years to be as old as Hibbert and he will be. He’s got a good frame, decent muscle now, and will get bigger.
OK, I’ve settled down a bit and had some time to think it over. Let’s review. First the easy one. Zeller- love the pickup. I still wish we could have kept one of those 2nd rounders, which in retrospect could have netted us a SF like Draymond Green or Quincy Miller. But I can’t complain with what we got. Pluses: – Fills a need – Legit 7-footer – Not a project; 4-yr collegiate that can step right in and play – Runs the court well – Has pick & pop range to 17 feet – Good FT shooter – Good… Read more »
meant highest Forced* turnover rate haha big difference.
Definitely was sorely dissapointed yesterday. Watched waiters Draft Express video and feel a little better, and the guy was a hound on defense in syracuse’s zone, to match up with his offensive game and make up for his height a little bit. He had the highest turnover rate on the team with one of the best defenses and most turnovers in the country, and he still only allowed his man to shoot 33%. We’ll see how that ability translates to the NBA’s man defense, but I’m at least willing to give him a shot now. Grant, you better be right.… Read more »
Definitely feel better after reading the comments on this thread, was down about not being able to get MKG and I’m not a big college hoops follower so I didn’t know much about Waiters, but it sounds like those in the know feel he’s got a lot of potential. Hope he is good! Go Cavs!
Also chatter that Sac would’ve taken Waiters 5th if we passed AND that Sac had him rated above MKG. I think Jordan over-reached for MKG at 2. I predict zero All-Star nods for MKG. For context, I said the same thing about Jeff Green and was right BUT also thought Harden wasn’t worth the 3rd pick either, so take my predictions w/however many grains of salt u wish…
So when Miami traded the draft rights to Moultrie for a future first rounder that is likely to be heavily protected, did that count as Miami’s pick or as Philly’s pick?
The reason I ask is because of that rule where each team has to have a first rounder at least every other draft.
2011 = Norris Cole
2012 = Traded to PHI?
-OR-
2012 = Arnett Moultrie (subsequently traded to PHI)?
2013 = Traded to CLE
If Philly’s pick falls into whatever protection they put on it, does our pick get pushed out to “the next available draft?”
Kyrie has been labelled as a “close friend” of all the top 10 picks so I don’t buy that as meaning anything. Except for his HS teammate MKG, he probably knows them from Twitter. Glad Andy wasn’t traded. Think they would have made a Zeller-like move in a draft at some point going forward so why not now. No one has characterized the trade as dumb just expensive. I think 4 drafted guys was a bit much anyways. Someone prove me wrong and tell me that 4 guys drafted on one night (with 2 2nd rounders) has worked out for… Read more »
Ok, national guys are reporting this morning that many GM’s were completely mum on Waiters in hope that he would slide to them! I told people there was a REASON why only two players didn’t workout for teams this draft. It was because they were the 2 most coveted players in the draft. Period. Start feeling GREAT about this pick, folks…
I have strongly mixed feelings about this draft. I thought going in that the right pick in the scenario that played out was Barnes. I didn’t like the idea of a short backcourt even when it was Beal who was the target. After the pick, I looked at video of Waiters and there’s no question that he passes the eyeball test, and plays with passion and attitude. I see why people think that he might have been the best potential available, but he’s still short and the fact remains that his coach in college thought that the team was better… Read more »
Here’s something you guys might find interesting. This is from a Syracuse blog: With the retirement of guard Anthony Parker, Waiters is in position to start right off the bat, and if he does, he will be running alongside Rookie of the Year Kyrie Irving, a close friend of Waiters’. “I’m excited to play alongside my brother,” Waiters said. “I’ve known him for six or seven years, and we have been texting and talking forever. He was the first person that greeted me off the stage and gave me a hug and told me, welcome to Cleveland. That meant a… Read more »
“Here’s my big worry: his numbers were inflated because he was playing against tired starters and 2nd stringers.”
Uh….no. Dion waiters played starters minutes. He always came in within the 5 minute mark, and never left much after that. A lot of times he would be in the starting lineup at the beginning of the second half.
And as a matter of fact, Dion was Syracuses closer. When syracuse needed a bucket, or an iso at the end of the half or game, the ball was in dions hands.
@Jake
Preach, brother!!! Trading Andy is not worth it.
KJ, Thanks for posting that link! I only wish I had read the article before the draft. I found it very interesting reading the candid thoughts from the scouts not just about the Cavs players but about all the drafted players. Definitely a good read.
Btw, with TT and Zeller along w/Kyrie and Waiters I see FINALLY the fast running team Scott has always wanted. I would argue that with TT and Z you have two of the fastest big men in the league. I like that the Cavs are clearly drafting for style as well. They clearly have a plan.
I’m sorry but trading Andy would be the dumbest thing imaginable. He was a top 5 C /PF last season when he was healthy and you can’t even say that he wasnt. He was averaging 12points, 11reb, was an obvious all star-snub, and of course was playing his usual akward yet ultra effective style of play that wins basketball games period. Andy’s career is just starting based on the fact he improved overwhelmingly last year on offense. Did you notice how we went from a playoff team to a bottom-feeder the second Varejao went down? I did, and it was… Read more »
More EVIDENCE. From PROFESSIONALS: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/06/25/NBA-draft/index.html
Read this and tell me again how disappointed you are…both our picks are essentially raved about.
“could the guy play in the hyper-athletic NBA finals we just saw between the Heat and Thunder?”
I’m already sick of hearing this. You mean the NBA Finals that featured key contributions by such paragons of athleticism as Shane Battier, Derek Fisher, Kendrick Perkins, and Udonis Haslem? All of whome are obviously renowned for their blazing speed and freakish vertical jumps…
No question we got two good draft picks, but I just cannot help but come away dissapointed. I believe in the long run there is more value with the picks we gave up (PJ3, Q Miller, T Taylor maybe?) than in Zeller, a solid, however unspectacular big. Also I am dissapointed walking away with Dion Waiters, I cannot help but be dissapointed. However this is because we did not get one of the top three, not because we got Waiters. He can definitely be a good, if not great, player and I trust the front office, its not like we… Read more »
And he says Waiters could be ROY. Man, I wish Cavs fans were more knowledgable. Their reaction to this pick has been borderline ridiculous…
I found it interesting that Bilas picked the Cavs as his “winner” of the draft. He loves Waiters and thought the Zeller move was great value. I agree:
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=8110666
This was a solid but unspectacular draft. Waiters isn’t D-wade or Westbrook but he isn’t garbage like people are making him out to be. I hope we can pick someone up in free agency like Batum (unlikely) or Landry Fields (maybe?)
As for the Varajao rumors, I don’t believe anything I’ve heard about this draft. As one GM said, “craziest draft ever. We’ve all been blowing smoke up each others a**es for weeks.”
Rescue me from the comment monster, please.
I have tip tip my hat to Jordan for the best draft pick in the history of the Bobcats. If I’m Thomas Robinson, I’m crying because I just got stuck on the only team more messed up than the Bobcats. Hated the Cavs’ pick when they took it (would like them to have taken Robinson), but I’m warming to it. The new NBA question, is “could the guy play in the hyper-athletic NBA finals we just saw between the Heat and Thunder?” The question with Waiters is almost probably a yes. He probably has the second best handle from a… Read more »
Considering the circumstances, I’d give the Cavs a solid B for their draft grade tonight. Obviously, many of us fans were disappointed not to land MKG or Beal, but the Cavs did land at worst a quality starter in Waiters and a 7 footer that appears to be a good fit with TT and Kyrie. If I had to compare the Cavs two picks to current/former NBA players I’d compare Zeller to Spencer Hawes and Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Waiters to a poor mans D-Wade. As a Duke Blue Devil fan it will be hard for me to root for Zeller… Read more »
First of all, yr saying that Zeller is a make-up call for Jonas is ABSURD. Secondly, value is COMLETELY over-rated in the NBA draft. I think the popularity of the NFL draft has fooled people in thinking all sports drafts are the same. Not so. Plus, the Cavs said they did NOT think this draft was deep. So getting two players they wanted is all that matters. Maybe they reached a couple spots for Waiters but they got Z at least 5 picks later than many had rated him. I would also point out that ONLY Waiters and Davis didn’t… Read more »