Podcast Episode 143: Until We Meet Again, Uncle Drew
2017-08-22https://soundcloud.com/ctb-5/episode-143-until-we-meet-again-uncle-drew
Happy Trails, Kyrie. With the news of Mr. Irving’s trade to the Celtics we sounded the conch and Tom Pestak, Ben Werth, Nate Smith, and EvilGenius assembled in the podcast booth to break it all down. We all gave our knee jerk reactions to the trade and gave our yays or nays to Isaiah Thomas, Jay Crowder, (up the) Ante Zizic, and the Nets’ 2018 draft pick. We also discussed the enigma that is Kyrie Irving and whether this trade makes the Cavs better in the long term and short term. Playing the imp’s advocate was Tom Pestak who held out hope that Isaiah Thomas and Jay Crowder could improve the Cavs. The rest of us were more… skeptical.
Other topics included: are the Cavs’ still a finals team? What are LeBron’s plans for the Summer of 2018? (Including some inside dirt on the Lakers situation). What is going to happen with the rest of the roster? Can Boston beat the Cavs in the playoffs, (or are they even the East’s second best team anymore)? Are the Cavs’ still a finals team? We take on all this and more as we wish a fond farewell to Uncle Drew.
As always, listen above, on Soundcloud, iTunes, or Google Play.
again, if Kyrie had made his intentions clear sooner, this could have been the much more complementary Avery Bradley we’re talking about or Chris Paul. I blame The Cavs’ front office partially for not doing exit interviews and for the generally haphazard way they they went through the offseason.
Exactly. That’s why I put a majority of blame on Comic Sans Dan.
That is a fair point. All the hand wringing on IT vs the Warriors also needs to acknowledge that Crowder & Rose have been excellent vs GSW. Shump/Green are like the 10th-11th guys for the regular season. And that moves down a notch when RJ jumps both for the POs, if Wade comes, or if Osman proves he can play. Also, I think Zizic can play some in TT s role.
I’m glad to see that good trade is winning in the poll.
Yeah, SI wrote a story about the poll… surprised you didn’t link to it…
I didn’t see it.
The PR propaganda firm of Amico and Phelps are pushing the narrative that the Cavs are better now.
Kyrie was the only reason the Cavs avoided the sweep in last year’s Finals…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFuoQhoEDOo
He sure didn’t much in games 2/3. He was 0-7 from 3 in game 3 (The closest game in the entire finals).
I feel ya, EG. He was a clutch and prolific scorer. IT does not help in that area. Hopefully he’s able to progress with LBJ & get some off-ball skills.
As Nate said on the pod though… hard to make a 5’9 dude an off-ball threat except to hit spot up threes… IT was best with the ball in his hands last year, real question will be if he can become a more willing passer than KI was, and whether or not he’ll have the court vision to do so at that height…
I honestly think LBJ will go off ball more with IT running things. I do think IT’s a more willing passer, just judging by how the Celtics shared the ball and ran their offense. Statistics say there’s pretty much no difference between IT and Kyrie assist-wise, but if there is a difference, IT has the slightest of edges in that department.
Thought Kyrie was garbage in Game 1 as well. Horrible shot selection and turnovers.
“…he was a clutch”
Well, the stats say differently.
http://www.nbaminer.com/clutch-time-stats/
What do your eyes tell you though…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AOU4dG2Y9o
Yes, Kyrie is a phenomenal scorer but he DIDN’T want to be here…
That wasn’t your argument… you said he wasn’t clutch…
Actually my argument was against Ackbron’s statement that IT would not be as clutch as Kyrie when he said, “(Referring to Kyrie) He was a clutch and prolific scorer. IT does not help in that area.”
I brought forth the stat that showed IT was more clutch than Kyrie last season and considering he had a higher ppg average, he can/could be considered just a prolific scorer.
The fact Kyrie doesn’t want to be here is unfortunate but it can’t be undermined.
That’s a ridiculous statement EG. Shump is the sole reason they lost game 3, however. If not for Shump, they win game 3 and have a real shot at taking game 5. Completely different series. The margin in that series was much smaller than what many perceive. Lebron is the reason they didn’t get blown out by 40+ every game in a sweep.
I honestly think if Cavs had a guy like Crowder in place of Shump, they would have won.
It might be hyperbole… but it’s not ridiculous… more of a reminder of the dimension the Cavs just lost…
Warriorsfan, are you more or less scared of the Cavs in light of this move?
Blah.
Scintillating comment…
Ha, interesting.
At the 35min mark of the podcast, one of the guys(sorry don’t recognize voices) mentions that the Cavs’ second unit was killed last year because of Shumpert’s stupidity with the ball in his hands. This commentator then says that will happen again this year with IT in the court. But thats rather not true. The biggest issue with Shumpert is that his handling the ball usually(what 75%+?) leads to a turnover. To think that IT’s handling of the ball will lead to the same conclusion is rather dumb. I know for a fact I wasn’t the only one grimacing every… Read more »
I believe Ben was talking Shump’s awful offense and his awful defense.
Oh no doubt. Shump shouldn’t have been on the court during the finals. I don’t understand why Lue had him there over enchilada.
But to say you’re expecting the same results with IT on the floor is not valid. How? Dude scores at will and isn’t a turnover machine.
The point being that Shump is unplayable from an offensive and defensive standpoint. IT is unplayable because his bad defense outweighs his good offense.
Verse the Warriors this allows us to put Crowder on Bray and free LeBron up.
And have Isaiah ride the pine because he’s 5’9 and Klay Thompson will eat him for breakfast.
BIG QUESTION ——WHAT KYRIE WERE WE GOING TO GET THIS YEAR—–COME IN AND PLAY HARD / SHOWCASE YOUR SKILL LEVEL TO MAKE YOURSELF ( AND FOR THE CAVS ) MORE ATTRACTIVE —OR COME IN WITH AN “ATTITUDE ” / DISTANCE YOURSELVES FROM YOUR TEAMMATES / INITIATE DRAMA—-DISSENSION / HIJACK THE OFFENSE EVEN MORE AND FURTHER LOWERING YOUR TRADE VALUE —BELIEVE THE CAVS FRONT OFFICE HAD SIMILAR CONCERNS AND PULLED THE TRIGGER NOW ON WHAT MOST PEOPLE ARE SAYING IS A VERY GOOD TRADE FOR THE CAVS
Attitude Kyrie because he didn’t his way.
Some reports yesterday said that Kyrie would not report to camp if he wasn’t traded.
Some reports also said LBJ was going to “kick Kyrie’s ass” too…
Dion beat him to it!
*get
Is it possible Cavs start Crowder over IT and run LBJ at the point? Probably not. Is that a stupid question?
I could see it in the finals, but then we have to trust JR to guard Steph and LBJ to cover Thompson
No. LeBron won’t start as a PG. He can be used as one as he did with the role players back in ’15 but not as a starter.
Did we all forget we have D. Rose?
No. Not to start, but crunch time that’s my lineup. IT will token start.
I think Cavs fans will become huge IT4 defenders. Much like how many glossed over Kyrie’s shortcomings because we were so enchanted by his offense – IT4 is going to wow the hell out of us offensively at times and he’s going to work so much harder than Kyrie – Cleveland likes guys that work hard.
When did this blog get so high on Kyrie? (Don’t answer I know when) I haven’t read as much in the past 12 months but literally 18 months ago half the blog thought Delly was the better fit. Kyrie wasn’t a top 5 point guard in the NBA last year.
well, it’s literally impossible to say with certainty what Kyrie’s value is. I tried once but it’s mostly theories. So, forgive us for not having a strong consistent take.
I’ve always been high on Kyrie… he’s a singular talent when he chooses to be… his game could be frustrating, but it could also be absolute brilliance…
Pretty certain some people will be super high on him during the regular season and then as all the history and eye tests have shown with him, the same people will be clamor into to dump him during the playoffs.
I work with a bunch of basketball fans and a bunch of Celtics fan. Every single person thinks it’s both: “shocking” and all the neutral bball fans think the Cavs “fleeced” the Celtics.
I disagree with that, but just pointing out the water cooler talk
To the shocking part, Elias said the deal was two firsts. First time players who played against each other in previous year’s finals or conference finals traded for each other. First time two players who averaged 25+ ppg the prior season dealt for each other.
yeah that sums it up! Crazy.
My friend who doesn’t care about teams, just watching good basketball, said the Cavs weren’t going to do better than that. IT and Crowder help LBJ this year, getting the pick was for the future.
Bleacher Report Headline: “‘Cleveland Made Out Like Bandits’: NBA Insiders Love Kyrie Deal for Cavs”
Dude you are pointing out other opinions.
That’s OK, Nate hasn’t yelled at me yet.
Cols has a reputation. This is what we’re dealing with right now.
Would you like one too? Cols is about to use his…
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/058/911/GTFO.gif
For those that don’t like the deal, prove to me it is more than just an attachment to Kyrie. What reasonable deal would you have liked? This seems superior to PHX (Bledsoe + Jackson + pick) which was not on the table despite JFJ in the FO there & Griffin’s word having weight. That should tell you something.
Denver with Harris, Murray, Chandler + pick? What?
The only logical complain about the trade is IT’s height. That’s it. All else is great. For anyone to say otherwise is rather foolish.
Yep. I’m going to really miss Kyrie. But IT and Crowder>Irving. Plus the pick next year is really valuable and could be flipped for something nice.
Since you posted this again… I’ll post this again… there’s zero chance you make this argument during the ECF last year… zero
I’ll break the laws of mathematics and say less than zero…
He’s also just not as physically gifted as Kyrie. Kyrie has the best handle and is the best at finishing under the rim. Maybe if IT were taller, it would help, but I’m not ready to extrapolate it.
I would have preferred Bledsoe and Jackson. Bledsoe is really good, and would be a good piece in a Warriors series. I just like Jackson a lot, although I recognize he has some serious problems with his game. I do think he could help in limited minutes against the Warriors as a defensive replacement, and he has huge potential if he is able to eventually put it all together. Of course it is unknown if the Suns would have ever done this deal. I think I also prefer the Denver deal – I like Murray as a prospect. This deal… Read more »
they weren’t going to trade Jackson.
Fair enough. Thanks for the response, Though I would point out that being concerned about IT’s heath, which is pefectly reasonable, while being OK with Bledsoe’s four knee operations, seems kind of odd. As for Denver, attractive package, if it was actually on the table. Still, IT is better than anyone in that deal.
Oscar Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, and all the Net’s picks.
I always try to see the other side of the coin. Funny how some of the Celtics fans hate the trade as much as we do :)
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=93102.0
It must be some kind of natural reaction to look for the dark cloud around everything your team does. While most neutral commentators think the Cavs hosed the Celts, a dozen CtB’ers tripping over themselves dreaming up bad things to say. They seem truly disappointed that the trade did not make the Cavs instantly the favorite over the Warriors. Welcome to the real world, and don’t forget your meds.
By “We” I meant the overall members of the blog. I like the trade given the circumstances.
They are just too attached to those players (and CREEPILY attached to the Nets pick). Crowder is no real loss to them, since he is essentially blocking playing time for their young guys, and Crowder is just a guy. If Irving buys into their system (and that’s a big if, imo), it’s a better trade for them. The pick is the wildcard, though….if it is a top 2 or 3 pick, and one of the lauded prospects works out, it could be a better trade for the Cavs. But that’s long term potential.
I don’t understand the argument against this trade. Kyrie DIDN’T WANT TO BE HERE, and the whole league knew it. He also said he wasn’t going to sign an extension. He also listed the places he wanted to play for.
How could anyone be upset to get two starters(w/ a combined average of 42.8ppg) and a first round (possibly top 5 pick) for a guy who let the whole world know he didn’t want to be here and had a list of teams he wanted to play for?
He had two years. The list didn’t matter as evidence d by this trade. Entirely different than 1 year for PG and Butler. Also those teams gave up. Indiana was set to get Irving until Gilbert got scared of LBj leaving and nixed the George trade. The Irving trade would have gotten way more value for Indiana. Same with Chicago.
You think Kyrie is happy to be playing in Boston? I personally don’t. So it’s going to be two years of grumblings and attitude. Is that healthy for the team? Who knows, maybe Kyrie decides he wants to play there and comes around the idea. Maybe he becomes an all around player. But given his childish behavior over the last two months, I doubt he’s happy to be in Boston. The list didn’t matter to Boston because they didn’t want to pay IT max money. Now they can sell the fans the illusion that they were trying to get better… Read more »
Depends on how Boston does in the playoffs. If they get to ecf with Irving as the man, I don’t see him leaving. Apparently they asked him about resigning before the deal was made. They didn’t want to pay IT max money and neither do I. I would pay him based off his defensive liability no more than 6-8 million a year. Even then, he only has a chance of being a net positive coming off the bench. You still can’t play him against certain teams/lineups and expect to win.
You are correct in not wanting to pay IT max money. Unfortunately height is a big factor in the NBA and he lacks it. But you don’t average 28ppg as the #1 offensive option and be an $8mill player. That’s just ludicrous. Question is, would a Kyrie led Boston team have made it to the ECF last season? I don’t think so. I think IT carried(to a point) that team. Boston has gotten better, so the comparison isn’t the same this year. Biggest question is, what else could we had gotten for Kyrie? I don’t think much else. I don’t… Read more »
JUST DOING SOME “HOMEWORK ” ON ZIZIC ——GOODBYE BIG EDDY ——–SCOUTS ARE GRADING HIM RATHER HIGH —-COMPARING HIM TO PEKOVIC/ JOKIC / NURKIC / SARIC—-NOT BAD FOR A ‘ THROW IN “——REALIZE POTENTIAL IS A VERY DANGEROUS WORD—–WE SHALL SEE —–
Not that I know much about this guy, but so far, I could see Nurkic…I don’t see him ever being skilled like Jokic, though. Best not to make serious comparisons until/ unless he plays in the NBA, though. I never saw him in summer league play (and summer league is a joke), but I do know he was considered disappointing there by people who follow the Celtics.
“Disappointing?” Go look at his last 4’summer league games. 4
Double/Doubles with almost 3 blocks per. Watch him. He is Marc Gasol 2.0. Don’t listen to that idiotic Mozgov comparison. He is way more so skilled and basketball smart than Mozgov ever was…
This guy is a steal. He’s 20 and 7ft with skills and basketball IQ.
If he becomes Jokic then the Cavs did fleece the Celtics.
Sports illustrated podcast loves his trade for a Cleveland too.
You can’t help yourself, can you?
Cmon Nate – thats a new data point, its not endless axe grinding
Cols would do this all day if you let him.
You know who else loves the trade for the Cavs? The Pope… he was pretty attached to IT…
Dunc’d on podcast guys love this trade for Cavs.
Please don’t tell us who else liked the trade/didn’t. We are all capable of soliciting content from other places. I personally don’t care and if you want everyone to agree with you, you’re at the wrong site. And just a general warning, I don’t have a lot of patience for you, today.
This doesn’t seem fair to me. I’m pointing out that most people love this trade for Cleveland. But OK. I will go away for the day.
Yes. You’ve made your point. Give it a rest.
Odd argument to make. Seems like many here, particularly staff, are way too emotional on this one. Almost every neutral loves this trade for the Cavs. Should be perfectly OK to point this out if it is a site that really encourages honest discourse (and it usually is). Odd to get that emotional for a guy who didn’t want to be here and was a ball hog and played virtually no D. Yes, he hit the shot and supernova Kyrie was a sight to behold. For that I say Godspeed Mr. Irving. But we had no shot to top GSW… Read more »
I am fine with honest discourse. I just don’t want Cols trolling all day.
Big news if true —> Warriors interested in Peter Dinklage. Would give IT someone to match up with in playoffs.
Yes but he’s tight with Daenerys Targaryen, and she controls all the dragons, and I don’t mean Dragon Bender.
Trump supporters faked out by photo of 2016 Cavs victory parade
https://articles.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2017/08/trump_supporters_faked_out_by.amp
If it is true that Kyrie had somewhat been a malcontent for the last season (and perhaps longer), I am hoping that there will be a tangible positive effect on the locker room now that this “saga” is over. Maybe all of this pre-season adversity is something the team can rally around – just like we rallied around Kyrie/Love’s injuries when we lost in 2015. Maybe IT4 will be hungrier than Kyrie, who became complacent after one ring. From all accounts, it seems like IT4 is a leader and a good locker room guy. He has shown he can be… Read more »
That’s a nice thought. In an ideal world, he and Crowder anchor the bench units and provide a boost there.
I don’t understand why everyone is comparing IT and KI. We did not have a choice between the two. KI demanded a trade and made it be known he would not show up for camp. The comparison that matters is the package we got from Boston relative to other packages offered. Based on that (proper) comparison, this is a very good deal. We now have a collection of assets that have more trade value than Kyrie alone (given that Kyrie was not going to resign with lots of teams), which gives us lots of ways to improve the team around… Read more »
Yep.
Cols — what would you do with BKLN pick? Move it for another piece?
Yep.
Also, lots of people saying the trade is hard to evaluate because the BKLN trade is an unknown. That is not true. It is a known asset with high value in the trade market. Lots of other teams have offered great players for packages that centered on that pick (Butler, George, etc.). And we just did ourselves.
What pray tell is known about it? The only thing anyone can reasonably say is that it will be a reasonably high pick in a draft in which we don’t know how strong it will be. For all anyone knows, until those guys play in college it could be an Anthony Bennett level class. So really until we know when exactly the pick will fall and more about the class, it truly is just potential for potential. If we knew it would for sure be a top 3 pick in a stacked class, that would be one thing. We don’t… Read more »
I am not sure I follow. We know that it is a high pick. High picks are valuable. Teams trade for them all of the time, as I noted above.
Teams trade for top rookies. You generally don’t get as much value for a pick that is not set or a drafted rookie. Right now the pick only has potential to be a top pick. Not as valuable. If it turns out to be a top 3 after the lottery it will have serious value depending on the draft class. Right now it is probably worth more to us than other teams. Also I doubt Gilbert trades it. I think he knows James intentions or is hedging.
Well, yes, a pick that is known to be, say, the 3rd pick is more valuable than a pick that is uncertain. But teams give up A LOT for unprotected 1st round picks of terrible teams all the time. As noted above, teams have been offering Boston A LOT for this exact pick for multiple years now. It has a ton of value. And, as you note, part of its value is you can trade it OR keep it if you think LBJ leaves.
He wasn’t happy for the past 2 or 3 years. Was he going to retire if we didn’t trade him?
No. He wasn’t going to show up to camp until he was traded. That is what McMenamin said he told Cavs.
He could say whatever he wanted… the minute it started costing him game checks, he’d have reported…
Holding out hope that the trade is nullified when IT fails his physical.
How do you do physical on someone who is hurt ?
https://twitter.com/FootageNBA/status/900216862679674880
Wait, that WASN’T Thomas at all…had me for about 20 seconds, though…
Hahahahahahahaha……
That pick is still dependent on Lebron.
This notion that IT doesn’t help vs GSW is just crazy to me. He helps a ton on offense. You have to keep scoring to beat them. And since when does good defense stop good offense? This isn’t baseball. The opposite is true in hoops. That is just a silly comment. We have 4 guys who averaged 18 ppg or more last year. We can keep at least two on the court at all times: 1 of the PGs + James/Love or James as PG + Rose at 2 or Love. Throw in Crowder and Korver, Smith & Thompson and… Read more »
Agreed. Most NBA columnists agree as well.
What happened to your hardline stance of not wanting to trade Love for Celtics trash? When it actually happens, I see you get right in lockstep with the Cavs FO. Very surprising…
Trading for Thomas and Crowder and a first round pick isn’t the same as trading for Crowder and Smart and whatever other trash the Celtics trade was rumored to be.
Yes. Agree. Celts always played GSW well with IT. Hiding him is a bit harder than hiding Kyrie, but it’s not like the guy is a complete zero. AND you got Crowder AND that pick.
Two regular-season games a year aren’t the same as a 7-game playoff series. Thomas killed us in some games last season. In the playoffs we smothered him on offense and made him our point of attack on defense.
https://twitter.com/world_wide_wob/status/900235163199836160
LOVE THIS
I don’t understand the obsession with Boogie? The guy hasn’t proved squat but he’s heralded as this can’t miss guy. He’s a lazy, ill-tempered team cancer in my opinion. Maybe in the right organization, they could hone his craft, but the Cavs are a train wreck, so no.
EG, I think this coming from the place where IT was massively overrated this season by the media. The fact he was 2nd team All NBA and 5th in MVP voting is stupid. He’s the 7th-8th best point guard in the league. Neck and Neck with Kyrie. Kyrie is 25 so I expect him to take another step forward but right now they are really the same player except in the finals Kyrie is only absurdly bad on defense instead of catostraphically bad. In the regular season IT is actually somehow better on D. I really think the fact that… Read more »
I genuinely hope you’re right Rodney… I’ve just seen enough of IT’s game to see the flaws in it. He was better in the regular season because he had Stevens hiding him creatively and guys like Bradley and Smart crossmatching for him. Doesn’t work in the playoffs where teams can plan for 4-7 straight games against him. I think you do a dis-service to Kyrie to call him the same player. Nobody in the NBA, outside of maybe Steph, can do what Kyrie does with the ball, and nobody is arguably a better finisher under the rim. It’s easy to… Read more »
Golden State is going 16-0 in the playoffs next year. They are going to be a machine next year. Its going to be the best team in sports history. Maybe if we added George and Bledsoe we had a chance. But a year of chemistry and being healthier makes them even better.
I think “The Shot” blinded everyone to the fact that Kyrie had alot of holes in his game. Fixable, holes. But they were there.
IT won’t help vs GS. But I don’t think he will be that much worse than Irving. Gonna get swept either way though
See… I actually think the WC is tough enough that they’ll drop a couple here and there along the way in the playoffs… and Kyrie always seemed to elevate his game against Curry (when he was healthy). With Kyrie, I still think they had a chance to take a game or two in the Finals… with IT/Rose, not a chance…
Just so you know… this is the new design for the Cavs’ alternate jerseys this season…
http://i3.cpcache.com/product/952897099/swiss_cheese_baseball_jersey.jpg
Just so everyone knows (in case it wasn’t obvious)… I’m not a fan if IT’s game. I hope to be proven wrong over time, but likely the most valuable piece in all of this is the Brooklyn pick (provided it’s top three next year)…
I’m not either. But I didn’t like Irvings game either. Agree the pick is the best part
Jeff Goodman and others on ESPN were just saying that’s the key to it all… it’s all about the pick.
I agree but I’d say Crowder is the most valuable piece. I think fans get excited about the idea of what the pick could become. To me it says “rebuild” and with the Cavs drafting history, under Gilbert, I’m not encouraged. So to me this deal was basically Kyrie for Chowdah!!!
Agree. The pick is most of the trade. I’m afraid the pick may not be as high as some people expect. The time to have the Nets unprotected pick was in the 2017 draft. With a gutted East, I could see the Nets being bad, and not godawful. And then there’s the old cliche of ‘with a top ‘x’ pick you HOPE to get a player that can be as good as KI one day’. IT likely is not going to replicate his season last year, 1, because it was probably a career year, and 2, because he’s coming off… Read more »
The Cavs traded Kyrie, but also got rid of a helicopter parent. Blessing in disguise.
Just so everyone knows the Cavs employ Jeff Green, Kay Felder, and Derrick Rose.
Probably not anymore
One can only hope! ??
Either Felder or Calderon is gone for sure
Jeez, I hope it’s not Kay… I mean, he could be the next IT…
Felder and Tavares are on non-guaranteed deals. But Felder is from a Detroit so….
I think @CavsDan only likes PGs that are on his level… Kyrie was just too tall…
Just so everyone knows… the combination of IT, DRose, JCalderon and Killer Shrimp couldn’t stop a prep school team from scoring 130 points on them…
Let it out EG…. Let it out…. LOL!!!
As if Kyrie and Deron Williams could? It is a wash. At least we have 2 guys who attack the rim & get to the line more than Kyrie & finish well there. Before we had only 1.
Just so everyone knows… the Cavs haven’t actually examined Isaiah Thomas’ torn hip labrum…
..right there shows how important IT is for Cavs in this trade.
I’m guessing the thinking is, “well, he’s only 6 mill, and he’s gone after this season anyway, so who cares?”
Just so everyone knows… Isaiah Thomas is listed at 5’9… but that’s in platform shoes…
And he has a bad hip according to Brad Stevens.
You mean… this guy?
Just so everyone knows, on offense Thomas was better than Kyrie by every metric. Substantially so.
In the REGULAR SEASON…
Harden, Westbrook and Bron all performed worse when they were the only star on their teams too in the playoffs. Chokers
They’ve all won WAY more playoff games than IT…
As solo stars? Cause Westbrook has won 1 game like that. And Lebron since 2009 has won 2.
Harden didn’t factor into your skewed argument this time? ;)
He did have the run to the Western Conference finals, its probably about equal but thomas’s win percentage would be way higher. And Harden’s numbers were terrible that year. He got rescued by Joe Smith going super nova
IT still had another All Star on his team (Horford) and some gritty defensive players (Smart, Crowder, Bradley)… It’s a pretty thin argument you’re making…
We are talking offense. And I really don’t think its thin. I think you guys are freaking nuts.
Harden, Westrook and Thomas just finished 3 of the most astounding offensive seasons ever. All 3 were the only offensive threat on the team. In the playoffs they all fell off dramatically. Either they are all chokers or teams can game plan against 1 dude alot easier. Seems pretty obvious to me.
You guys are also using 4 series, 1.5 of which he was injured for as evidence. Thats a silly sample size
And we’re looking back the past 3 seasons.
“Post seasons”
Right so 4 series, 5 I guess. 2015 he was on the bench.
If anything, the sample size speaks volumes about why he’d never gotten there before…
This is just a terrible take if you have followed his career at all.
I’ve followed it enough to know that he’s an offensively talented one-way player in the regular season that can fool you into thinking he can be an actual factor in a playoff series that matters against a good defensive team…
God I’m going screen cap this convo so when he puts 40 on Kyrie next year we can laugh about it
Lol… you should totally do that!
I’ll do the same so we can laugh about it when IT rides the pine as the Cavs get swept by the Dubs in the Finals…
Yes, we are talking offense… and good defense stops good offense… especially when that offense relies on pet shots and trying to get to the rim as a 5’9 dude amongst the trees in the playoffs… not happening…
…. in west.
This argument is pretty anecdotal.
And yours is a stupid small sample size
Lol.
And Kyrie shot better from the field (47% to 46%) and from three (40% to 38%) so your argument is flawed right there…
Cause thats how we judge shooting in 2017? He had a TS% of 62. Kyrie was 58.
You did say EVERY metric… ;)
I would have gone with TO% if i were you but fair play
No EG, yours is. IT had a better TrSh% by a substantial margin (4.5%) playing with far less talent on offense than Kyrie. He’ll get more open shots & have more space this year. And anyone who watched the POs last year & doesn’t like IT’s game? Wow.
Re-read it Jason… he said EVERY metric… and yes, I watched IT’s game and dislike it greatly. Wow.
And Kyrie was substantially better than IT by every metric in the post-season… it’s not close
Even so, no one including himself, doesn’t know how healthy he is going to be and in his contract year.
I got it now. LeBron to the Mavs… Cuban was a Clinton supporter and advocated against Trump.
He’s not going West…
I was joking. Should’ve used the damn “/s” sorry.
LMAO… Michael Wilbon is taking Boston for the East??? He’s lost his mind, trolling, or desperate for attention.
Well he does work for ESPN.
He (PTI) was literally the only person I liked watching at ESPN… but that’s just an awful take.
Yeah I’ve given up on all “talking head shows,” (news, sports, etc.). It’s bad for your brain.
Frankly, mindless is exactly how I like my entertainment most of the time LOL!
also, haralabob thinks the celtics got fleeced….and normally he is pretty smart when it comes to the NBA.
Does he think Thomas is staying past one year? He may think the Nets pick is that good…that may turn out to be true, but it may not.
Trading that pick would be one way to ensure guaranteed returns.
Never gonna happen… CavsDan needs insurance…
Lebron can decide that he is coming back before FA next summer…
Yes he “can” but he probably “won’t”
:(. Pretty soon you can just watch him in person every week in LA!
He’s not going West… and he’s for sure not going to L.A.
I gotta replace my iPhone case now – similar problem to changing your Steam name Tom.
Same! Interested in what you find. I am also going for a run right now, and will wear my Kyrie swingman jersey for the last time. Sniff.
Eh, retire it for a few seasons until some of the sting fades away, and bring it back out eventually. Championship run was special, he’ll always be a part of that.
Good thoughts, sir. Will do.
Isaiah single handily won regular season games for the Celtics last year….does everyone forget that? Wasn’t that the main complaint last year? Now we have someone who can win the game or at least survive while lebron is resting. Kyrie wasn’t dependable at all when Lebron rested/didn’t play. IT3 showed that he could carry a team in the regular season….Granted….Kyrie had amazing upside, but he never carried a team to a .500 record by himself.
We’re talking about regular season vs playoffs.
Issiah is the only player ever to average 29, on 62% TS%, and 34% usage but he’s trash, because the Cavs and Warriors double teamed him in the playoffs
Are those regular season numbers?
Arch, Stars with 1 star struggle in the playoffs.
Did you watch Houston this year? Harden kinda sucked compared to his regular season self.
Did you watch OKC? Westbrook kinda sucked compared to his regular season self?
Did you watch the 2015 Cavs? Lebron shot 37% in the Finals
Did you watch the Raptors after Lowry got hurt? Derozan kinda sucked.
Well how do you explain that the Celtics were better without IT?
C’mon… they weren’t better… Cavs just blew game 4 because of their blase attitude.
There numbers were better without IT.
Not in game 5 when the Cavs decided to play…. you saw game 5 right? LOL
The Celtics weren’t winning regardless. That still doesn’t take away from the fact they were better with IT off the court.
How could they have possibly been better giving up 135 points??? By what measure were they better???
Plus/minus
Yes… but that stat includes the Cavs sleepwalking thru game 4. I don’t think it proves anything really… other than the Cavs didn’t try game 4.
They shot 43% from the field… they were freaking awful.
Because the worst 3 point shooter in the NBA hit like 8 threes
I’m not just referring to the game they beat us in.
Then what are you referring to??? That’s when that idea was concocted from what I can tell.
I’m referring to the entire series, from a plus/minus standpoint.
Exactly…. we all know the Cavs just plain came out flat as soon as they knew IT was out.
They were bored and the Celtics play better without him in the playoffs.
No… they really didn’t… game 5 was a massacre. They shot horribly and the Cavs put up 135 on them… and that was without IT who’s horrible on defense. So in what world did they step their game up???
They were outmatched. A team without any stars.
If they were actually better without IT, they wouldn’t have given up 135 without IT on the court playing defense.
The Celtics were a team that punched above there weight.
Playoffs are all that matters…
Are Westbrook, Harden and Derozan all terrible playoff performers too or is it safe to assume that in the playoffs you need to have two stars?
Did you watch Lebron shoot 37% in the 2015 finals? Does that mean he’s a bum?
This narrative seems to throw out the obvious. That he was the only good offensive player on their team and got trapped.
LeBron played in the 2015 Finals with a supporting cast just above replacement due to injuries… hardly what IT has had… Dude is 5’9… just accept that
I do. He’s terrible on D. He’s also at least as good, but probably better than Irving on offense
He’s not better than Irving offensively in the post season.
He’s substanstially better in the regular season.
More points in less minutes, Better percentages on higher usage.
In the playoffs stars on teams with only one star like the Rockets, OKC, and the 2015 Cavs struggle
He was better LAST YEAR. Which may well have been a career year for Thomas. He may never have a season approaching that again. Which isn’t such a big deal to the Cavs, since I will be shocked if he is here past this coming season. I think any team would be moronic to give a guy his size and age some 4-5 year max. I think Thomas may be disappointed next summer…he may get a big three year contract, but I doubt more than that. And I really doubt it’ll be from the Cavs.
I bet Kyrie has a better year than IT offensively this season…
LeBron leaving because Gilbert supports Trump would eliminate the Knicks. Dolan was a big Trump supporter and they’ve probably been close for years.
Good point. A lot of this is perception.
LeBron to the Dubs!
Well…if Durant to the Dubs was acceptable, I guess this is too.
What billionaire owner isn’t a Trump supporter? (Besides LAC’s owner)
LeBron to the Hornets!
Good call… forgot about MJ LOL
Most of the owners probably supported him. If LeBron leaves, it has nothing to do with Gilbert holding fundraisers for Trump.
Totally agree… I figure it’s about winning and money… that’s why I think NYK is the destination.
I don’t think it’s the only reason. It’s the topping on a sundae.
Joe Lacob
But Lacob is a scumbag in his own right…
Players love him though as he connects them to VCs and kept promise to over cap to retain everyone and more. He runs his mouth too much but he also listens to his GM and coach.
How about his lawsuit for NSA style tracking of app users…
http://deadspin.com/lawsuit-warriors-app-secretly-allowed-for-creepy-nsa-1786074849
He’s also in business with Peter Guber who is the worst kind of Hollywood trash… and I’m saying this as the best kind of Hollywood trash ;)
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Investigative-report-water-waster-bel-air-Warriors-9232818.php
Peter, is he related to Hans?
Guber… not Gruber…
Which is pretty vital.
Damn Tom I love your take about “Why does everything need to be looked at thru the lens of the Warriors”. Thank you
It’s just exhausting. They’re historically great. Doesn’t mean other teams aren’t balling too. Cavs offense was a sight to behold at times last season. Will be again
Thank you gentlemen. That was cathartic. I am strangely looking forward to this season more than I was last week. Another year of LBJ on our team – enjoy it people.
Just don’t see the Nets being as bad as some think with the Pacers, Hawks, Magic, Bulls, Suns, Lakers actively tanking and another 3-4 teams tanking after trade deadline.
Lakers aren’t tanking. They need to get out of the bottom 5 to keep the pick
Yeah I wasn’t sure on that one.
Pacers should be tanking too, But they have too many real NBA players to pull it off. Turner is awesome. And Olidipo, Lance, Thad Young, and Sabonas are NBA players
Smokin Joe Harris is getting minutes on that Nets team…. that means they’re gonna be terrible LOL!
Deangelo, Lin, Crabbe, Carroll, Hollis-Jefferson, Booker is not necessarily a bad top six. They are thin in the middle with Mozzy.
I like those players in a vacuum… but together as a team??? I don’t know man… that looks pretty awful.
Doesn’t look worse than magic, Bulls, Suns, Hawks, King’s, Magic to me. Also think they could gel and surprise people. One of the smartest front office guys in NBA runs that team.
Pacers still have a drastically better roster than the Nets, and they don’t tank. The Magic are probably better to, and at least their young core has been together rather than the Nets band of contract castoffs. The Lakers aren’t tanking. I’ll give you the Bulls, Hawks and Suns, but none are significantly worse than the Nets. It’s still a good pick.
Lavine is better than anyone on the Nets, Schoeder is probably better than anyone on the Nets.
Lavine? No. He puts up numbers but not good at actually winning basketball games.
Same could be said for Russell.
Yeah, he’s not great. But he’s proven alot more than than Russel to this point
Bingo. This Nets team is castoffs. Crabbe is a good role player if he’s surrounded by talent. He’s not. Moz and DeMarre have been puke for the past two years. Russell is inefficient as hell. That Nets pick is a huge asset.
Agreed here… didn’t realize how bad their roster is until I just looked at it.
Bulls will have the worst record… book it
Brad Stevens few days back :
“”We want what’s best for Isaiah,” Celtics head coach Brad Stevens told The Vertical Podcast with Chris Mannix. “We want to make sure that when he is ready to roll, which hopefully is sooner rather than later, that he is ready to roll at his highest level and for the longest possible time, obviously, right? So that’s a lot more important to me than anything else.””
Celtics front office is a bunch of phoneys.
https://twitter.com/oldseaminer/status/900197859966013442
Kyrie wasn’t that good in the playoffs this year. He was goodish in the finals but had 125 drtg. Worst on the team besides Korver. 1) We were never beating the Warriors. They are the best team ever. -Maybe if they did the PG13 Bledsoe trade before the draft. After the trade demand that was never happening. 2) Issiah just had one of the best scoring seasons of all time. He’s the only player to ever average at least 28 points, on a TS% of 62 or better with and Usage of 34%. He isn’t trash. 3) We now have… Read more »
Kyrie was better in the playoffs than IT was…
Agree they aren’t beating the Warriors barring injuries. I think they would have had a legit shot though if they had traded Irving essntially for PG and Bledsoe. (If that trade was ever a thing) With PG and Bledsoe, I would have given them a 20% chance or better.
Is this a classic 4 quarters for a dollar trade? I mean we did get 4 things back…
No…. the pick is the difference IMO. LBJ leaves you get nothing, Kyrie leaves you get nothing.
But we kept Shump which is like quicken loans mortgage.
Shump is like getting a turd in the swimming pool…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPxiXGr9nFM
Well, thanks for giving me something to laugh/cry about.
I love this trade, gives short and long term flexibility. Cavs wouldn’t be in this position if Lebron would just commit, I think it is best possible outcome.
This was a better deal than I could have imagined. The Nets are gonna stink worse than an oyster bar’s trash can baking in the sun next year. ESPN forecasted them to be tied for the worst record in the league. Vegas set their over/under at 21.5, the lowest in the league, and the top four next year looks better than the top four from the 2017 draft…Crowder is PERFECT for the Cavs as a physical defender who can guard the oppositions best 3 or 4 to preserve LeBron. He was top 20 in the league in RPM last year.… Read more »
Since there’s an obsession with Bledsoe…. Bledsoe for pick straight up?
No.
No they wouldn’t or no you need more?
Cavs wouldn’t. I wouldn’t either at this point. Need to get someone long term.
Agreed… just throwing that out there in a “win now” scenario… what would the pick get as far as who could help this year?
boogie or PG13 if things don’t go well in OKC. Also, there is a small small outside chance that the CP3 Harden parternship doesn’t go well…could the Cavs create a package for CP3? Obviously a pipedream…but nothing is impossible in this NBA. Also, this trade saves Gilbert $$ and now can spend more on the buyout market (Wade or Melo…)
I think Melo stays in NY. I think you can get Wade without a Trade. I think it takes a Westbrook injury for PG13, but that’d be a nice get. I hate Boogie, but there’s no denying the talent!
I think the pick could have more worth at the trade deadline….no need to make a trade now. Could flip Love or the pick later in the season.
Wouldn’t trade Love, but would definitely trade pick to make a push… any ideas on who you’d like at the deadline?
No way they can trade the pick for Bledsoe straight up. And I like Bledsoe a lot.
I’d do Bledsoe and Dudley for Shump, IT, and the pick.
Too generous… keep IT as a hedge for DRose or Bledsoe.
Throw in Warner
I still wouldn’t include IT for him. Pick could set PHX really nicely for the future with Jackson, Booker, and two lottery picks.
I’d probably do it because I don’t trust the Cavs drafting ability, and Warner is fairly young. Bledsoe > IT.
Boston’s getting destroyed…. Horford trash, Gordon can’t guard LBJ, Kyrie can be exploited on the defensive end, Tatum and Brown are too young, Smart can’t shoot.
Good move for the future.
Agreed.. they’ll be good when Tatum and Brown mature, question is can they keep that all together for 3 or 4 years???
The biggest problem is that Zizic is probably their best rebounder and Bradley and Crowder were their best defenders.
Yup… great point.
This may not be the last move for the Celtics. They still have a million draft picks.
Well it’s officially offical. Kyrie is no longer a part of the Cavs NBA trade machine.
Great point…. LBJ has something to prove…. plus being an underdog? I’m smelling an epic season from him.
JFC the bashing on IT is ridiculous. He’s not Kyrie but he’s not trash
He’s historically bad on defense… Kyrie was just mostly awful…
https://twitter.com/IllegalScreens/status/900216559179894784
A couple Zizic scouting reports
The next Nikoli Jokic!!!!!!!
Haha. Can’t pass.
Could the brooklyn pick turn into BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOGIE if the pelicans are a dumpster fire?
God, I hope not.
Boogie on a Reggae Woman!
CP3, DWade, LBJ, Melo, and Kristaps Porzingis can get to the Finals easily.
That’s why I think he’s in NY 2018.
Agree with you there. I’ll enjoy this season at some point, despite all the drama.
Exactly… this is the last hurrah!
Possibly. I want a trade if I’m Zinger.
I think he’s stuck… would a chance at a ring change his mind in 2018?
LBJ knows first hand that it takes atleast two years to win a championship with so many new faces. If he wants to win, he will go join a team that is already good like may be rockets or spurs.
Absolutely not going out West with the Warriors being who they are.
He’s played with these guys on Team USA… built in chemistry and they’re friends… they are in no way “new faces”.
Playing in TEAM USA is not same. Plus, the better suited narrative for Lebron would be he will go to a team that will give him best chance to defeat warriors, not merely making finals, which he made plenty. Lebron+Kawahi under Pops would pose threat against warriors for instance. Next would be Lebron joining CP3+Harden.
He’s not going West…
Thank you EG LOL…. buy the rights to this movie!!!
Didn’t say it was the same…. I’m saying they aren’t “new faces.” He’s known these guys for a decade or more at this point. CP3 is a free agent in 2018. He’s not going to the Spurs, I don’t care how good Pop and Kawhi are, there’s not nearly enough there. LBJ will go to NY, which is the largest media market, playing in MSG the Mecca of basketball, resurrect a popular franchise where all of his banana boat buddies have a realistic shot as signing together because they’re free agents… and America will love that team because they’ll be… Read more »
Thank you Tom for the reasonable take here
I don’t believe it included Boogie!
haha
Sorry, wrote this on the wrong thread:
1. Yes on Kristaps and Noah for TT and the pick!
2. IT is obviously a one year rental.
https://twitter.com/haralabob/status/900220184815955968
David Griffin on NBATV, Cols is tuning in I hope!
I would have preferred Middleton and Brogdon
Yeah. Probably
Guys IT was 2nd team all NBA. He was 5th in MVP voting.
You guys are acting like he’s nate robinson.
Crowder is a really good player on a super cheap contract
Phoenix would win way more games with Kyrie than Brooklyn who’s best player is D’angelo Russell.
Um, no. They’re terrible. And they play in the west.
See above
Nobody said nba voters were smart.
Says the guys saying that Brooklyn would be better than a Irving lead Suns
Suns play in the west. Brooklyn in east and suns giving up possibly two best players.
LOL that pick is not going to be in the teens. Worst case scenerio its going to be like 5-6
Are you convinced there are good players at 5-6?
Agree with Ben RE LeBron. I think he’s gone.
Agree with Nate… I don’t trust the Cavs with the draft pick.
I love the trade. The reason that IT struggles in the playoffs is he’s the only weapon they have. He was double teamed in every series
And he’s 5’9.
Which is tough to deal with when your being double teamed. Luckily he will have Lebron on his team now.
And it’s easy to game plan for as an opposing team.
If they are gameplanning to stop IT its a win for the Cavs
Well they game plan for everyone.
The bigger problem is on defense, where opponents game-plan to attack Thomas. It’s like playing 5 on 4.
Yeah vs the warriors IT will struggle. But these guys are saying IT is bad on offense
In the playoffs
Nate: I hate Derrick Rose… I loathe Jeff Green… ????
The worst line ups next season: Rose, IT, Shump, Green, Tavares! ?????
Agree with Ben, Crowder is the best player coming over… not IT.