
The Point-Fourward: Just a Break
2017-08-30
Four things I’m thinking about…
1. In any good breakup, there is a period of freedom induced euphoria followed by a loud internal question of “are we really doing this?“. Sure, that euphoria is more specific to the party who initiated the separation, but even the most heartbroken breakup-ee can get a pleasant shot of single-hood liberation. Just think of all those restrictions that cease to exist without that other person to worry about. It’s finally about me!
Still, unless there were extreme circumstances, that feeling of liberation is mitigated by the realization that something is about to be over. The internal question is loudest in those last few days. Assuming it was a long relationship, it’s not just like one person grabs a T-shirt and says “Peace out!” More likely, there is a mini-buffer era, maybe the pair is still living together, or maybe they meet to clear the air over a long dinner during which both parties look at each other not with thoughts of what the other person couldn’t provide, but with instant nostalgia of what they could.
“Are we really doing this?”
Is the couple prepared to ditch all the good times they’ve shared(or more accurately, the potential of future good times)? Humans are remarkably forgetful when it comes to relationship transgressions. Perhaps “forgetful” isn’t the right word. Forgiving. Yeah, that’s it. Stubborn? Or is that loyal?
Depending on our mood, or with whom we are speaking, we celebrate our loyalty or lament our addiction. Our friends, most of whom would prefer that our lives are simply more entertaining for them to enjoy, are rarely a form of real support. Even the ones that truly have our best interests in mind often promote pride as a primary focus. “Don’t let him get away with that! You deserve so much better!” They may mean well, but frequently they are telling you what they wish they could do themselves. Or they are sub-consciously cheering you into a bad relationship/life so they may feel less inadequate. Nothing makes you adore your “friend” more than a feeling of content superiority!
Partner 1: Kyrie
I think I need to see other people. I can’t grow under these circumstances. I need to be free to be me. I’m tired of you being the focus of everything.
Partner 2: Cavaliers Organization
I value your desire for freedom. It has given us the best years of our lives, but it also can be difficult to handle on the bad days. If you really want to go, it will break my heart, but I’ll try to get through it.Â
Friends: Media
You guys really should breakup. It’s just not going to work. You already have established roles in the relationship that will never change. Be free!!! Â (mmm, I LOVE THIS CONVO!)
The other Pair:
Partner 1: Celtic’s Organization.
I think I need to see other people. I can’t grow under these circumstances. I need to be free to be me. I’m tired of you being the focus of everything.
Partner 2: Isaiah Thomas
I value your desire for freedom. It has given us the best years of our lives, but it also can be difficult to handle on the bad days. If you really want me to go, it will break my heart, but I’ll try to get through it.Â
Friends: Media
You’ve been such a great partnership, I can’t believe you want to go. (But wow, do I love this conversation. Tell me more!!!!
2. With this somewhat sad, somewhat hilarious stalemate between the Cavs and Celtics, the humans on all sides are luxuriating in the drama. Purely from a leverage standpoint, the Cavs are in the better position. Kyrie Irving already asked for a trade. The fact the Cavs honored that does nothing but show Irving that they do wish to make him happy. You can’t further alienate him at this point.
The Celtics would be in a miserable position if the deal were to be void. Jay Crowder was already annoyed that the Celtics brought in Gordon Hayward. Crowder is on a cheap contract and is particularly prideful. I’m assuming he already feels undervalued. Getting traded certainly couldn’t have helped. And there’s this.
Isaiah Thomas was the most popular Celtic since heyday Paul Pierce. Danny Ainge, to his credit, realized that he wasn’t ever going to move past good with Thomas has his lead offensive force. Boston fans who were initially disappointed in the trade have already warmed up to the idea of having the best ball-handler in history on their squad.
If Thomas were to return now, not only would he be competing with his own career season of 2016-2017, he would be competing with a theoretical Kyrie Irving. Not to mention an actual Gordon Hayward. No matter what, things aren’t looking too great for Thomas, but the shot of creating something new with LeBron is far better than returning to Boston.
3. With that as the backdrop, I find it somewhat strange that the media think that the Celtics shouldn’t add an asset.
“Don’t let them do that to you!”
Whether Koby Altman and the Cavs knew the severity of Thomas’s injury or not is almost irrelevant. The Cavs could nix the deal and live to see another day. The Celtics potential deal got the league buzzing about what Kyrie’s trade value really is. It’s substantial. Almost every player and management guy around the league weighed in. Across the board, players consider Kyrie to be simply unguardable.
In Bill Simmons’ recent podcast with Kevin Durant, Durant predicted that if there were a one-on-one tournament of NBA players, that he would be playing Kyrie in the Finals. Durant didn’t even sound convinced that he would win.
If the Celtics were to lose this deal, Ainge would be in a tough position, regardless of his substantial draft capital. He’d have an injured Thomas, a disgruntled Crowder and a bunch of potential picks.
4. Which is why the Cavs should hold out for another first rounder. You make deals based on what is happening right now. The media’s knee jerk reaction was that the Cavs won the deal because they got an analogous player in Thomas, a dependable wing defender in Crowder, and a super valuable unprotected Nets pick. Since then, more people have realized that Thomas isn’t as effective in the playoffs, unlikely to even be available for much of the regular season, and that the Nets might not be so horrific this season.
Our initial reaction is documented on our Cavs: thePodcast. I was in no way a fan of the deal because I don’t value Thomas’s game. The injury doesn’t change my opinion of Thomas’s worth, but if it changes the perception around the league, Altman should capitalize on it. An extra first rounder and a second rounder should get the job done. It’s interesting that David Griffin thinks that it will go down as previously contructed. Of course, it looks better for his reputation if Altman doesn’t own Ainge right out of the gate. Still, is trading Kyrie ever really a win?
The worst case scenario might be the best case scenario. The deal dies and Partner 1 and Partner 2 are looking at each other over dinner.
“Are we really doing this?”
Maybe they didn’t need a breakup. Just a little time to think.
Not a huge fan of the deal if IT is hobbled all year. If he only misses a couple months, I’m a fan.
If IT is healthy, I remain convinced this is awesome trade. But the last week puts so much fog around the whole thing. Hard to know what to think.
Thomas’s status will become more clear over the next few weeks. But maybe not perfectly clear. If he doesn’t have surgery, he’ll have open-ended rehab that could go on for a month or two…or five or six.
Hip issues linger. If IT can be a spark come playoff time even in limited minutes, then IT can help oust his former team which makes the deal worth if you add wing defender/great contract in Crowder and the pick.
Agreed. Great trade if he’s healthy. If he misses most of the season and isn’t a big piece in the playoffs, MEH.
I’m burning my IT jersey right now /s
Watch Zizik turn into Semih Erden (who also was traded to the Cavs from the Celtics). Maybe if the Cavs had an experienced GM they’d know how Ainge likes to hose teams on deals.
Ainge to Koby:
http://www.thatawesomeshirt.com/images/get/1206/430×550/
And what would have done?
I wonder which rookie GM will get to make that pivotal second round pick in 2020… or if @CavsDan will just use it on the next Kay Felder…
Hey Danny… give me five bees for a quarter…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C03feurAuXw
To avoid compounding the embarrassment, they’ll wait a couple weeks to announce that Thomas needs surgery.
Right so the Cavs traded Kyrie for Jae Crowder. Bill Simmons thinks this deal is pretty fair.
https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/903087753054871553
Well on the positive side maybe IT thinks the earth is round?!?!?!
Here’s hoping they play this on the Jumbotron at the Q opening night…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B2a6l6wM2k
If IT misses significant time this season, this is pretty embarrassing.
“STAND AND DELIVER, DANNY!” – Koby Altman
They’re gonna have to update this game box with a pic of Koby Altman…
Well… maybe the Cavs will get the IT of 2020 in the second round… /s
Just looks utterly embarrassing for the Cavs front office – to go from wanting Tatum/Brown to this…
It’s like when a kid goes into a grocery store with his mom and pesters her for something good like a big cake from the bakery or a box of cookies, maybe some candy. She keeps saying no but the kid keeps pestering her until she finally gives in and gets him that 25cent ring pop at the end of the register.
An extra second-round pick in 2020 has a present value of roughly one-third of a Kay Felder or one-quarter of a normal-size scrub.
Burn it all to the ground with Gilbert inside
have the cavs had one of the most volatile offseasons in NBA history? griff fired, billups saga, altman comes in, kyrie demands trade, LBJ tweets random stuff all summer long, kyrie trade finally happens, then it doesn’t, then it does again…. i mean, JEEEEZ.
You forgot they are no longer renovating the Q, and the Cavs could potentially leave in ten years. All we need now is for Donald Trump to host some sort of convention at the Q and we are ready for the apocalypse.
Don’t didcount the Trump possibility…
Discount*. Stupid phone.
Haha. Oh no.
i really hope with flip IT for a beverly or a bledsoe. i just worry dude won’t play much this season.
If IT can’t play till Jan/Feb/March then no one will want him.
Yep. The risk is all ours now.
Indeed. Ugh. I mean, if he is fine for beginning of season, this move is great…. But who knows at this point.
I doubt he is tradeable at this point. Injuries and the fact that teams have figured him out in the playoffs probably kills his trade value. Also, you know he is going to get paid by some sucker team at the end of this year.
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/1e/1ef87f78a744c06e62c8f3736767b5b2aad56374dbbcd8b4fb2c1626b93358d3.jpg
Amico better be spinning this with bbq paint chips…
https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/903082455355330560
Gilbert is already scouting high school juniors for the next 5’8″ superstar to take with the 60th pick in the 2020 draft
Well maybe the Cavs can take their own 2018 first, the 2020 second, and Shump for Bledsoe?!?!?
that would be great. but i imagine suns would want more. i’d add IT to that mix.
They can have IT and our almost IT2K thread.
2020 2nd rounder…. IT may be ready to continue basketball play in 2020.
Wonder what betting odds are of him ever playing for Cavs…
So all that for a 2020 2nd rounder. Blah blah blah…
Unreal.
If Nets pick is top 3 and the Cavs keep it, probably a long term win. Cavs are worse this season if they keep pick, though, imo. I’m not counting on Thomas until January, if then. Cavs probably have the worst PG situation in the league as of right now.
I don’t think anyone has a clue when or if IT will be playing, and how well he might play. If it turns out to be early and good, all the “Doom and Gloom, Hate Gilbert” crowd will be disappointed.
Blah
https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/903081117758185472
https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/903080703587491841
WOJBOMB
Extra 2nd round pick! LOLOLOLOL
https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/903078177920176128
If there’s a legit question about IT’s health, hopefully the pick they’re seeking is a high first-rounder.
https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/903078177920176128
Oops. I posted the same thing. You beat me to it. Too bad this isn’t the IT2K thread.
The IT2K thread is alive! I’ll post it there too.
https://twitter.com/joevardon/status/903060491387449345
https://twitter.com/AdamMKaufman/status/903036569543745540
I’m me theory could be that the Cavs are just letting the negotiation of deal to expire, then restart new negotiations on Friday. Per Sam Amico, Phoenix seems more interested/engaged now.
“One theory”
good read, mostly for celtics perspective.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20501557/zach-lowe-celtics-cavaliers-kyrie-irving-isaiah-thomas-trade-nba
WE HAVE ANOTHER “ERVING ” LEAVING TOWN—CAMERON ERVING TRADED TO CHIEFS FOR A 5TH ROUND PICK—–ANOTHER WASTED 1ST ROUND PICK BY THE BROWNS—-PREVIOUS G.M’S / COACHES / ETC FOR BROWNS SHOULD BE BANNED FROM THE LEAGUE —-WHAT A JOKE / SHAME
They’re so cheap. They don’t want to pay anyone.
They also have a pitiful draft record. How many 1st round busts in the past 5 years?
Richardson, Weeden, Manziel, Mingo, Erving, Gilbert, Shelton…. all 1st round busts since 2012, and only Shelton remains.
Don’t want to pay who? Coaches? FO? Guys like Cam Erving that can hardly play?
The Indians are more fun right now. Here is my thought of the day: Yandy Diaz must really suck on D if the rookie plays both ends of a double header at DH while lots of the older guys played both games in the field. He sure can hit though.
FWIW, I still see zip about IT being out for the year. Lowe said slight chance he misses most. That is the furthest I’ve seen.
Well every month he misses is one less month we have him as a rental.
As Nate said the other day, the Cavs — who are the concerned party, and whose doctors had the up-close look at Thomas — have to be very careful about what they say because of health privacy laws and other reasons. So what we’re hearing reported is mostly not the full picture of what’s going on behind the scenes. But, again, from Woj yesterday: –>Ever since Thomas’ physical with the Cavaliers on Friday, there has been significant uncertainty within the organization about when — or if — Thomas could play this season, league sources told ESPN. That, to me, justifies… Read more »
Really depends on if he gets surgery or not. If he gets surgery, I’d personally write him off for the season.
Reading random Twitter on the Kyrie trade is a good way to go insane.
Tribe break out the brooms in the Bronx!
Lindor homers on one knee. They’re just having fun now.
They’re starting to get hot at the right time. Need to get Salazar and Miller back healthy for the postseason. Remember, we didn’t have a healthy Carrasco or Salazar last year…
I just don’t understand why we would complete this trade without Boston adding either Brown/Tatum and a first. IT is done.
Right On! And make them throw in Gordon Hayward and Al Horford too!
Blinking first and giving in is always the best option when there are major risks for your interests involved in a business deal. Sound strategy. We should concede to Ainge as most other teams have done. He won’t budge so no point in ever testing him, because we have more to lose than a team with two disgruntled players going back, one who very likely won’t play for most of the season, right?
Looks like they read this.
Ugh. Haden signs with the Steelers…
I think the deal gets done today or tommorrow. Cavs net a 2nd or late 1st (Celtic pick). If there is a chance IT misses all year, we need it.
Ben is thinking too hard.
BELIEVE EITHER LATE TODAY OR SOMETIME THIS WEEKEND —–WITH THE CAVS YOU NEVER KNOW FOR SURE
Nice stuff, Ben.
Dick Vitale says his sources tell him this deal will get done. Awesome, baybee!
If you see this comment, please spend 10 seconds and post on the IT2K thread. We got this fam
It’s time to move on from Kyrie and that other thread. It’s over.
What? Abandon the best thread ever for this fluff ball?
Who thinks the trade gets completed before labor day weekend? FYI – I’ll need enough feedback to get to IT2K.
My guess is that the deal actually gets done today. Who knows though. You can’t predict anything involving the Cavs because they just give you the middle finger.
Plus Ainge is a dick. And speaking of fingers: Good thing they aren’t negotiating in person or Ainge would try to bite Altman’s fingers off.
Don’t they have to complete it by Thursday?
They can extend it if they want to.
Thanks, didn’t know that. I would bet that it’s done before the weekend.
They can, reports coming out now though that the Cavs are no longer asking for a player or high first. If the Cavs want some combo of late first/second round picks, I don’t see why the Celtics, Ainge included, wouldn’t pull the trigger. Small price to pay when you are loaded with picks.
I hear the Brooklyn pick plays really good defense.
44 inch vertical and 9-foot-2 standing reach. Speaks five languages.
That’ll come in handy.
FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH—LOWE (ESPN ) IS REPORTING THERE IS A SLIGHT CHANCE I.T. COULD MISS THE ENTIRE SEASON——AGAIN THIS IS A ” FRANCHISE CHANGING TRADE ” THERE IS NO ROOM FOR GAMBLING / MISSES —–HAVE TO DEMAND THAT WE GET MORE FROM THE CELTS FOR THIS REASON
I WAS ALL IN FOR THE TRADE UNTIL THE INJURY REORTS ON IT—–STILL WANT TO COMPLETE THE DEAL BUT YES AINGE HAS TO ADD AN ” ASSURANCE ” PIECE —LATE 1ST ROUND AND 2ND ROUND —OTHERWISE —-” LET’S ALL GO TO DINNER “
WELL THE BROWNS DEPARTED WITH JOE HADEN——I GUESS THERE IS ALWAYS AN END
Sorry to see Joe go. He embraced the city.
THE HIGHLIGHT OF YESTERDAY WAS ” EVIL’S COMEBACK ON THE CTB” — WOW VERY IMPRESSIVE AND WELCOME BACK——-NOW WE HAVE TO GET OUR “BELOVED ” COLS BACK—–WE ( WELL MOST OF US ) MISS YOU COLS ——-YEAH TAKE KY AND WADE OUT TO DINNER WITH LEBRON AND DISCUSS HOW THEY CAN DEFEAT THE DUBS ——” ALL IN THE LAND “
Good piece. But I think you just don’t want Kyrie to leave. The Nets are awful. How adding Mozgov, Carroll, & Russell while losing Lopez makes you better is beyond me. Bottom 5 certainly. IT was 53 points worth of ineffective vs Wash in the POs. Two more picks? You are in fantasy land.
Brooklyn should be a bit better by default also, though. Atlanta gave up any semblance of talent (tanking), and Chicago did a similar move. I think Brooklyn will be bad, it’s just, how bad are these other teams gonna be? Plus Suns have to play in a much stronger west. Could have a worse record bc of that.
Even if they were the worst in the league they still only have a 25% chance to get the number 1 pick. Obviously that chance goes down the higher seed they are.
I get that. Still, there seem to be 2-3 big time prospects. I think it is better than 50% the Nets are in bottom 3. Suns stink. Lakers are better. Philly much better. Those are the teams within 8 games of Brooklyn. The Knicks, Kings, Hawks, Pacers, & Bulls will all be poor. Only see Chicago as terrible. Pho, Brk, Bulls, Lakers are your contenders.
Lakers won’t be tanking this year, they need to stay out of the 2-5 range to keep their pick.
No one is really saying the Nets improved tremendously…but since the east has gotten worse this off season and there are multiple eastern conference and western conference teams that have plenty of incentive to tank while the nets have none there’s a chance they climb up to somewhere between 5th and 10th worst team in the league which lowers the picks value significantly….
Great point. So then the Brooklyn pick becomes very “bust-able.”
No one thinks the Nets will be good (well, other than Simmons and other Celtic fanboys who are trumpeting that line since they are losing the pick…classic sour grapes – ‘well, the pick isn’t going to be that good, anyway!). But if the pick falls out of the top 3, it may not be a great asset. Draft picks are a crapshoot anyway, but if the pick is that high, a lot of teams would do a lot to get it.
I’m suddenly scouting college basketball players to see who the next Anthony Bennett may be.
Hard to find those tweeners who can’t play any positions!
It’s a serious craft that Chris Grant mastered.