Recap: Knicks 106, Cavs 95 (or, Out with a Whimper)
2023-05-03The Cavs lost 106-95 to the New York Knicks to get gentleman’s swept out of the first round of the 2023 NBA Playoffs. Here’s a retrospective on that fateful night and some other meandering thoughts on the Cavs’ 2022-23 season…
1. Out with a Whimper
Sadly the NBA playoff pressure cooker revealed that the Cavs’ junkyard dawg mentality was more wishcasting than reality. They showed very little competitive toughness throughout the series, getting outrebounded by a million boards. A bunch of calculator nerds have elaborate explanations about “defensive coverages” and “scrambling defenses” as the reasons why the Cavs sucked at rebounding, but real hoopers know that rebounding is purely about effort and hustle, two things that the Cavs sorely lack throughout the series. Jarrett Allen was completely outclassed by Mitchell Robinson and Isaiah “Hard Rock” Hartenstein. Allen’s role on the team is to do the dirty work, but instead the Cavs got a prima donna performance. Will Jarrett Allen ever show the physicality needed to survive playoff basketball? He’s never shown it in his career unfortunately, but hopefully it’s more a matter of his youthfulness than unwillingness. Tower City’s first run in the playoffs was a disaster, the future viability of the lineup ought to be scrutinized next season and into next year’s playoffs should they be so lucky to make it again.
2. It began with J.B…
The bad vibes of the Cavs 2022-23 season began with Coach J.B. Bickerstaff’s idiotic decision to indefinitely bench NBA Champion Kevin Love in late January for the services of teacher’s pet Lamar Stevens and an injured and completely ineffective Dean Wade. With J.B.’s public noncommittal stance towards future Love minutes, Kevin Love rightfully asked and was granted a buyout from the Cavs to join the Miami Heat. To this day, there are still bozos in Cavs’ fandom who wrongfully think Love was killing the Cavs on defense… allow yours truly to re-iterate yet again how stupid that take is when looking at the evidence:
From Kevin Love’s benching, Cavs ranked 29th in the NBA in defensive rebound rate @ 68.3%
Prior to Love’s benching, Cavs ranked 3rd in the NBA in defensive rebound rate @ 73.6%
From Kevin Love’s benching, Cavs’ defensive rating: 110.0
Prior to Love’s benching, Cavs’ defensive rating: 109.8
That’s right the defense without Love got slightly worse, and the defensive rebounding went from one of the best with Love to one of the worst in the NBA without Love. Also keep in mind the Cavs’ schedule was front loaded, so the Cavs should’ve performed better on defense if Love was actually “killing the defense” that much.
J.B.’s terrible decision-making didn’t end there. It continued throughout the Knicks playoff series with zero adjustments to the Knicks’ prolific rebounding, whether it was going ultra big with Dean Wade at the small forward position or ultra small with Wade and Stevens in the front court as small ball bigs. Here are the four best defensive rebounders the Cavs had going into the Knicks series:
How many minutes did Dean Wade and Lamar Stevens play in the Knicks series? 19 minutes combined. Yes that’s right, J.B. Bickerstaff decided to play the two players he deemed more important than Kevin Love a combined 19 minutes in the playoffs.
Despite Cavs’ POBO Koby Altman’s full throated defense of Bickerstaff in the end of season presser, the era of good feelings ought to be over for a coach that’s sub .500 for his career with a 2-8 playoff record, 2-9 if one includes the play-in. There’s also a long documented history of Bickerstaff-led teams lacking any sort of creativity on the offensive end, which reared its ugly head in the Knicks series. There was zero chance that Koby Altman would can Bickerstaff this off-season, which I’ve consistently said here and on podcasts alike. But if another season goes by and another flame out in the playoffs? One would have to think that would force Altman’s hand… the question now is whether that will be too late given the ticking clock that is Donovan Mitchell’s contract. Speaking of Donovan Mitchell…
3. Mitchell didn’t show up
When you’re the superstar player and potential All-NBA player, there are expectations that you’ll step up when the lights are brightest. The opposite happened for Donovan Mitchell, who shrank in the moment and validated the concerns of those who say he’s not a number one option on a championship team. What’s interesting about Mitchell’s advanced stats is that his usage declined (31% vs. 29.6%) and his assist rate went up dramatically (14.9 to 21.6) when compared to the regular season. To yours truly, it suggests a bit of passivity in his game, that he lost confidence and became indecisive once his shot wasn’t falling. There’s certainly an argument that he should’ve shot less considering how his true shooting percentage cratered in the playoffs (51.8%). Whatever the problem was, Mitchell needs to figure it out, because the Cavs are only going as far he is able to take them.
4. Silver linings?
There were a couple of silver linings in the playoffs for the Cavs such as the defense of Evan Mobley (102.2 defensive rating while on the court). Darius Garland, Isaac Okoro, and Caris LeVert found some scoring rhythm in the playoffs. Cedi Osman found some rebounding prowess. Yes this might be grasping at straws, but maybe these positives could’ve been leveraged further with a better game plan and adjustments from the coaching staff. At the very least, the young guys got their first taste of playoff basketball, the experience should serve them well in the future.
5. Thank you CtB
While the team may have lost their competitive edge, the CtB Commentariat never loses their edge. Thank you to all that read and commented this season, it’s humbling to be around the great basketball minds of Cavs’ fandom. It was a fun season, bitter ending, and the offseason should be an interesting one with a wheeler and dealer such as Koby Altman, Go Cavs!
As much as I can’t stand the Sixers, I kind of would like to see an Embiid/Jokic finals.
Setting up a crazy game 5 in Denver…
It doesn’t look like that went off Ayton, but it’s difficult to tell with that one camera angle
Looks like it went off Ayton
Porter just brutal tonight…
God, Jokic is just ridiculous…
51 points the announcers said 🤯
Gordon has found a nice role with Denver
This is an epic game!!!
Shimmy shimmy Shamet!
Ben is salty!!! But he may also be right…
https://twitter.com/BenStiller/status/1654973468926943233?s=20
Ridiculous shotmaking in Nuggets-Suns game…Booker just hitting everything, again…Denver will need to get more from Murray and Porter, Jokic isn’t going to beat Durant and Booker mostly by himself…
About to tune in
There’s a reason Smart is open standing out there. Tatum should be taking those shots and he passes them up to give the 76ers OT and then the W.
Kudos to Harden for a fine game and a nice gesture to an injured kid.
Yeah…I dislike this Sixers team, but I dislike this Celtics team at least equally. But I was sort of rooting for the Sixers because of that story with the kid. Good for Harden, at least on this day.
I dislike the Sixers more, so I’m slightly rooting the the Celtics
76ers are toast. They just lost a thriller in OT
Did they?
Nevermind. I tried the edit the post. They dodged a bullet.
I wasn’t watching the game, just following the score. They incorrectly gave Smart that 3, then changed it.
It was easily after the buzzer. Screw that guy. He was doing his flopping BS down the stretch, big surprise. Dude is a disgrace to the game.
Smart’s shot didn’t beat the buzzer in OT. Karma, beeotch.
Going to OT on the Smart miss. Karma.
Just due to that Smart flop, I hope the Celtics lose this. Screw that fraud.
42 year old Al Horford sonning Embiid down the stretch…
That was wild.
RIP NICK AND PRAYERS GO OUT TO ENTIRE GILBERT FAMILY————THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS IN LIFE THAN WORRYING—- BEING UPSET ABOUT A PLAYOFF LOST ——- “ KEEPIN IT REAL AND GROUNDED “ 🙏
agree
https://twitter.com/currypistonn/status/1654990525668229121?s=20
Nick Gilbert passed away 😢. RIP Nick! Such sad news.
This is awful. Cavs lucky charm has gone. RIP Nick and wishing healing and peace for his family.
oh damn. hard hard few years for the family
Feel for the family. RIP Nick!
sorry to hear that. our good luck person.
He was an inspiration.
RIP. That is awful.
Lakers blowing out the Dubs.
Trading Blowouts
hope the Lakers make it two in a row.
at this point in time, I dislike the Warriors much more than the Lakers.
100%
Yeah for sure. Be interesting to see Joker v Davis too.
Sort of ambivalent but I dislike the lakers as much as I dislike the yankees. My most despised team.
I PROBABLY HAD ….” TOO MANY BEERS PLEASE ” TODAY WORKING ON THE
NEVER ENDING MRS NOMADS HONEYDO LIST ” BUT STILL HAVE ENOUGH WITS TO MAKE THE STATEMENT —–SPOESTRA > J.B ….. BY FAR ……SPEOSTRA HAS ” HANDCUFFED ‘ BOTH M ROBINSON AND HARD ROCK —–ALSO MAKING BRUNSON EARN HIS POINTS ———- A GOOD COACH CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE !!!
Very playoff tested Heat roster and coach. Most saw the ECF last year. Know what it takes. Our Cavs have some lumps to take. They were a lottery, then a play-in knockout, now a 1st round knockout. I was excited too and the reg season wins were encouraging. Hopefully they bring that same winning record with improved playoff smarts.
agree. BTW, recall how everyone was calling Spoestra a total idiot his first couple years.
Amazing how Robinson just looks like another guy in this series. Cavs made him look like prime Wilt. Some of that was on the Cavs players, but a lot of it was on their schemes. If the Cavs/ Knicks played another playoff series, I would expect the same result.
I’m sure they’d learn some more lessons 😂
KLOVE 10 minutes, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, +11 plus/minus… haters in piss and shit!!!
He did the craziest thing on one play,,,,,he blocked out Mitchell Robinson.
Double the rebounds in half the minutes of JA!!!
shooting 20% from the field with zero 3s. stretchy!
+10 in a 20 point blowout, they can’t win without good ol’ K Love
Keep crying!
He can’t score, shoot, or impact games anymore…throwing on the cape for absolute weak numbers is crazy to me
Uh oh sounds like Love has stolen somebody’s costco samples!!!
Lmaooooo that’s pretty good
LMFAOOO thank you thank you i’ll be here all night! Don’t forget to tip your waiter…
haha! good to see some good humor!
It’s a stretch to say he can’t score. I saw him score on a put back for the Knicks at the end of the second quarter last night.
BTW, there are no KLOVE haters. Everyone likes Kev and wishes he had been here doing it for the Cavs.
Throwing a hissy fit and demanded to be traded? Some of us are less happy than others.
The further we get, the more I agree with Kev. He knew the coach was a moron and that the emporer had no clothes. If I didn’t know how many games I had left, I wouldn’t want to waste them playing for JB either.
Love 100% made the right call, crazy the Heat keep getting away with it!
Only hissy fit going on is coming from the folks who need to sign some Love apology forms!lmfaooo
I’m not even hating-he has maybe two actually good games this playoffs and has been better than the guys we thought would replace him.
But like actually cheering for 20% shooting, some gimme DREBs and two outlet passes is crazy-he has been sub replacement level by any metric. Imagine your hero getting benched for Caleb Martin when it matters
If he gives us everything he gave the Heat we are still dropping the series to NY in 6.
Murray just not good enough tonight…Booker and KD too tough.
Be thankful we don’t have to watch Shamet on the Cavs…
I feel like Shamet is the type of dude we’d want as a third guard / wing
Got a game now…
I could see Chris Paul becoming a coach after he retires —- he’s 38!
Doubt he wants to deal with that kind of headache…
And now enjoy the worst halftime show conceived by mankind as I change the channel…
Why do they give Jalen a ball – does his mouth seize up witthout it?
He likes playing with his balls!
I’m just glad they’re not clowning the Cavs
Good point
I really just want any team other than Golden State to win it this year.
Durant heating up with 17 in the 2nd quarter
Deandre Ayton seems as soft as Jarrett Allen
His coach concurs.
Booker 🔥🔥🔥
Just got leveled by a Jokic pick….that was amusing…l
Durant really a nothing burger tonight
The announcers in the first quarter, of the Suns/Nuggets game mentioned how some stats around a specific Denver squad stunk in the regular (for lack of a better way of phrasing it) but has outscored opponents by x during the playoffs. Which goes to show you need to get more creative with these lineups in the playoffs. Hopefully lessons are learned and plans are in place going forward for the Cavs.
Murray hitting early, may be a treat game from him…
Booker too…
Worth watching Suns / Nuggs just for the commentary with RJ & JJ
Wow, Grant Williams got his head stomped into the court by Embiid…inadvertent, but that was nasty…full weight of Embiid airborne just forcing William’s face into the court…
Williams was miked up, hope they caught the crunch on audio.
Ugh. I couldn’t even watch after the first replay, he’s very lucky that wasn’t really bad…it looked like Embiid jumping full weight on a melon…
Embiid rolling around on the ground and fell on Grant Williams head. It was definitely accidental. But Williams looks like he got hit by Tyson.
For all the talk about JB, what exactly does Luke Walton do on the team? I thought he was supposed to bring offensive insight.
forgot he was there
Any Rock&Roll fans in Youngstown, Chicago, or Columbus? See the Giraffes in the next couple days. Thank me later!
Get Coach Bud!
Is this even possible?
Sure. Anything is possible. It is, however, unlikely.
Lakers looking like early season….stinky!
Getting their doors blown off so hard that TT will play the entire 4th quarter…
Eh. I didn’t even watch. I knew they were gonna coast this game. They got their one win in GS and were saving the effort for back in LA. They pretty much conceded that in the Game 1 post-game comments.
LeBron came out super aggressive and tried to keep them connected in the first half. but yeah, it got very bad very fast. but it’s like Boston Game 2, you expect the home team to roar back. A competitive G2 would have been scary hours for the Ws
Poole sucks so bad that even the Schroeders of the world can clown him…
Haha Steve Kerr burned his challenge and can’t bail out Curry.
I can’t stand the Warriors
agree with Arch
Reeves doing lots of chucking and clunking.
I think the Lakers already equaled their 3-point total from last game.
5 3’s in the first quarter. 6 total in the last game.
Wild how Hachimura apparently is unable to miss from three since he was traded…
Jordan Poole is terrible to watch…right up there with Trae Young and Embiid…
July 1 and free agency can’t come soon enough!
I’ll take coach Bud!
I would too. Not without his his flaws, but he coached a team that got it done and has had success wherever he has gone.
I wish Korby had more of a sense of urgency. I can see this all jumping up on him faster than he thinks, because he’s betting/hoping JB is the guy and the team will magically get better as they age (which is likely true), but impossible to predict how much, or if at all for some players. He needs to push more buttons IMO.
Bud has the exact same weaknesses as JB. This is a wild dude to get hype about: we are mad we choked a series so hire a coach notorious for choking serieses???
Disagree. He’s actually won playoff series (several), and also won a championship. He’s in no way perfect, but definitely a step above JB.
ehhhh…let’s see what else is out there. record comparison feels a little fraudulent as analysis — the Bud teams were all more talented than we are now, and all underperformed except for the chip year (yes, the #1 seed Hawks won serieses, as did the #1 seed Bucks — it’s no thing for a guy with #1 seeds to win more than a coach with #4 and #8 seeds). the Bucks fans have exactly, to a T, the complaints about Bud that you have about JB. I’m not excited about Bud. There will be better coaches if we want to… Read more »
I’m open to other coaches.
Alright I think I’ve changed my mind about Bud. He seems to be a more seasoned JB.
I wouldn’t regard the 60 win atlanta as more talented. In fact I would say they vastly overachieved and their talent got exposed in the playoffs by the team with the best player in the world.
they made the conference finals over two bum squads (BKN, WAS) and then got annihilated. absolutely good reg season, absolutely dogshit playoffs
Yeah. And they had jeff teague, milsap, horford, Korver, and demarre carroll. Three good players, but essentially a team of elevated role players. Annihilated against a lebron team that took the GS to six games in the finals despite missing kyrie and love in the finals. Seriously, they were way outmatched in talent by the cavs even missing love in that series. They didn’t have 60 win talent. Not really. Budzenholer got them to play above their level. But eventually they were totally out-talented by the cavs. Honestly I never took the hawks seriously. Not because of budzenholer, but because… Read more »
At least bud can coach offense and oob.
He’s definitely an upgrade.
urgency is often the reason for dumb moves
Do you honestly think JB can win in the playoffs? And why?
I do NOT have any insight into that, and doubt if anyone else does either. I think it is very hard to know that about any coach. One thing good about JB is that the players like him, which is not all that common. I would do some things differently if I was coach, but I notice no one is trying to hire me as coach. I was replying to Arch, on wishing Koby had a sense of urgency. It is common to see teams in all sports make wild last minute “urgent” moves, and many or most of them… Read more »
urgency got us: fat Shaq, Antwan Jamison, Luke Jackson (over Al Jefferson or young JR), Larry Hughes over Michael Redd, Rodney Hood, George Hill, Isaiaih Thomas, etc,
JR Smith, Mozgov, Shump, Lue.
it’s way more misses than hits
I’m not even saying making panic moves. I’m just talking about being accountable. Recognizing realistically the situation they’re in a taking the necessary action. I don’t believe they are there.
they said they needed more spacing and shooting in the post-season presser, no? All the players and FO took individual responsibility. Practically speaking, free agency isn’t until July, they can’t really make trades now or switch coaches until they realize what is out there. We just differ on tactics and tone: part of being accountable and smart as a FO is not calling your shot before you can actually take it. we didn’t spend any time talking about the Mitchell trade before making it (maybe a week?). That helped. Koby won’t talk about targets for wings, etc., they’ll just do… Read more »
His press conference felt pretty self congratulatory- we got 51 wins.
he’s a team executive, his job is positivity. Detroit’s GM was positive and those guys were an absolute smoking crater. On substance, 51 wins and being a top-6 team with a stable young nucleus of talent is actually an accomplishment given we lost a generational talent four seasons ago. That really is the headline, and it’s amazing that we are now looking for a great fifth starter and/or viable bench wing options for the playoffs vs. just bumbling around looking for a damn clue with maybe one and a half viable starters, which is where we were in 2011-14. It’s… Read more »
what would be dumb is to announce your plans going forward at that presser.
why do you think every team in every sport keeps total secrecy before the draft, deadline, etc.?
nobody gives any info out at a season ending press conference.
what do you mean being accountable? are you implying the GM didn’t know it was the trading deadline?
the fact that the team didn’t do anything dumb is a good thing, but you keep complaining about it.
dudes claim to understand leverage and value as it relates to contract length but…don’t see why a GM might want preserve leverage re: information on future plans :) :)
it’s luck and matchups. if we muscle up to the three seed, we’re running Brooklyn in five or six and no one thinks anything of a 2nd round loss.
2023 was a bad data point but the only one (again, if you are gonna hang losing to KD and Trae with Allen hurt and Garland overworked in 2022 or losing to GSW on him, we are probably not gonna agree on much).
We won’t know if he’s a good playoff coach until the second round next year, assuming we have a top-3 seed
It’s a moot point since Koby decided to roll with Jb but next year is too late. I don’t think people realize the timeline with DM. Next year is the penultimate year before his player option and if he isn’t willing to sign an extension by next summer you need to consider he is maybe gone in 2025-2026. Your ability to trade him decreases steadily in 2024-2025 as he is an FA for all intents and purposes in 2025-2026. They needed to make progress this year and need to make huge waves next year.
i don’t think your ability declines much really. just auction him off in Feb like Dallas did with Kyrie, and they got two good starter caliber players and a few meh picks. Can we agree that DM is worth at least a quality big guard like Dinwiddie and a good two-way wing like DFS? and then you have a better DG and better EM (and Jarrett still in his prime) anchoring a team with five decent starters and two and a half Allstars. That’s pretty OK. I’m just not panicking on Donovan because he’s not the whole future of the… Read more »
You’re not going to recoup value. You might get a late first round pick from a contender, and some mediocre at best pieces, from a team willing to take a risk on dealing for DM. Teams will know you’re desperate. It would be a fail from Korby and the front office for making that trade. Which all goes back to the need for urgency. He accelerated the timetable, but he’s pretending like he didn’t. Now if Mitchell stays regardless, then all is good. But they still need a new coach IMO.
Also you can have urgency without making panic moves.
i don’t agree at all. Brooklyn got value for both Kyrie and KD and everyone knows Kyrie wants the Lakers. It’s not a disaster to flip him ESPECIALLY if it got you over 50 wins while EM and DG develop into monsters, which is where we will be in 25-26.
They got value from KD because he was signed to a max deal.
value obviously includes the length of the deal. They got value for four years of KD, and value for a half season of Kyrie. and both those guys were loud for months about getting out and management was desperate.
i can’t see a world where half a season of 28/29 yo Donovan, who is 80-100% as talented as Kyrie but shows up all the time and is a culture guy, nets you anything other than 2 quality starters and an FRP.
It would be a missed opportunity IMO.
but think about it in terms of playoff success. Do you think Mitchell can be the best guy on a championship team? Do we think that about Mobley?
I am not sure on the first, but I think you can see Mobley as being the best player on a championship team. And if that assessment is right, then you build around Mobley (and Garland and I guess Allen) and whatever Mitchell gives you via team contributions in 23-26 or via trade return is fine either way.
I haven’t seen that from Mobley yet. We have to see a giant massive leap in development next year for me to even consider him potentially being the best player on a championship team. I think based on his first two years it is way too early to forecast that. Best player on a championship team typically means top five player in the entire league. I don’t see a guarantee of that rarified air yet.
i am not sure I see that from anyone drafted in the last five years except maybe Luka?
So far yeah, but probably too early to tell for most of those drafts.
Hopefully they actually make a deep run in next years playoffs and it won’t matter. I am skeptical they will, but it is what it is. My concern with the trade was always the price in picks and it not working out. We’ll see what the market is if it comes to that. Return value always decreases as you get closer to a player’s UFA summer for obvious reasons. No point in paying a lot to a guy that could walk at the end of the year or who you could sign outright or sign and trade scraps for during… Read more »
In theory it does, but the Kyrie trade gives me pause bc he was so clearly a rental and BKN got decent value. I honestly am not sweating the picks-I think Evan and DG give us a high floor of 45-50 wins as they grow. I don’t think an elite PG plus elite big = lottery, so I’d be surprised if the swaps convey
Yeah the star market has shifted a ton. Who knows? But my point is the timeline is sooner rather than later, at least with DM.
I thought we were focused on playoff success not regular season.
39-26 playoff record with the Bucks.
JB 2-7 playoff record (w/ Cavs – including play in games)
JB 1-4 with the Rockets… 3-11 overall.
he was an #8 seed with Houston, too. It is insane to hang losing in the first round to the 2015-16 Warriors on coaching.
This is true. What’s the excuse this season when the Cavs were favored? I guess it’s youth 😂. I love this youth excuse.
there’s no excuse other than he can’t make shots for them. scheme don’t save you from an ass kicking or underestimating the Knicks.
Scheme gives them a fighting chance, so they at least don’t get waxed. Look at the Heat “b” team that almost beat the Knicks the other night. Plus I think Chris pointed out plenty of areas where JB didn’t pay attention to math.
they had a fighting chance! they just didn’t fight and make shots! it’s really 70% players imo. they got shook and missed shit they’d made all year
It’s hard to make shots when the paint is clogged with non-shooters. Also it’s hard for non-shooters to make shots.
paint was clogged in the regular season and they made shots. All of our flaws were exposed, including the coach. a total team loss. feels good to think there’s a way out that you can diagnose, but it’s simpler than you are making it. our guys have to shoot and play better — tends to happen with young guys as they gain experience — and the FO needs a better seventh and eighth man, either from within or via FA / trade. I like Strus and Bamba or maybe something like Gary Harris and Jonathan Isaac if the latter has… Read more »
That’s because teams don’t scheme for regular season games, or half the time get up for those games, until 2 minutes left in the 4th. Also has JB really developed players, or have they’ve developed on their own accord?
they shot well relative to their peers who were playing in the same regular season environment! Donovan was the best shooting guard in the league. There were 31 other guards that couldn’t match him, even with nobody trying or whatever you are saying
the question on development is unanswerable of course. you are engaging in motivated reasoning here at best
Developing a culture okay. Developing talent I’m not convinced, especially with the way the bench performed this year.
And I’m responding to your claim of internal development, so show your work if you’re gonna plant your flag!
Too many factors in play to really say.
I guess you’d have to compare it to what they’ve done under other coaches or an alternative coach? JA developed more in CLE than he was in BKN. Garland was the least productive player in the league under Beilen and better under JB.
Also sounds like motivated reasoning.
There’s just no real way to separate player development advancement into other root causes and decide who contributes how much. It is of course mostly with the players who do the work, but after that it’s a mishmash of coach, org, supporting personnel (Mike Mancias says hi) and others
how are you getting to nine games? I’m confused. 5 games this year, two play in losses last year (and if you put losing to Brooklyn on JB iono — Atlanta was probably better on talent too with DG and JA hurt or coming off injury). He blew one series
Oops I meant 1-6, which is just as bad. 😂
fair enough. I don’t think he really had much of a chance in those other games / series. this year was extremely trash: if there’s a strong upgrade we should take it but otherwise JB feels important culturally to the guys. As I said, if we aren’t top 2 in the East at the Allstar break, I think JB is gone.
Disagree… I don’t think the regular season matters as much, at least it shouldn’t, for next season. Korby will give him another crack at the playoffs, unless things really unravel during the season.
I think that’s probably OK. if the wheels come off again in the playoffs he’s gone. that feels very fair: it’s a bummer that we won’t feel good again about a fun young team until next April at least :(
54-44 in you include Atlanta.
have to think about it.
So . . . When is the last time there were not one but two unemployed, not yet retired (and relatively young) NBA head coaches who’d won an NBA title as HC within the past 4 seasons? No harm in making a discreet phone call or two, Koby.
remind us who they are
Nick Nurse, and now Budenholzer, fired today which seems pretty cold-blooded considering he just won the title two years ago and his superstar was injured most of the series against the Heat.
Vogel, no?
Forgot him! So let me restate the observation: only 8 HC coaches have won a title since 2011. Three of them, who all won within the past four years, are currently unemployed as HCs and as far as we know, not retired.
Vogel is who I would take, as far as ‘established’ coaches go. I think he would be a large upgrade. But any change appears to be a pipe dream at this time.
I would also take Vogel. teams flip FAST on coaches, though, so I wouldn’t rule out a mid season switch
right. also, a “vote of confidence” in a coach means NOTHING. it would be a huge flail to announce that you are thinking of firing a coach.
I want Max Strus Lonnie Walker and Mo Bamba or Alex Len
I know it is a couple months until the awards banquet, but I am voting for HoopsDog for the the wackiest post of the year award for gripping that the Cavs didn’t go out and get Bey, Hart, Muscala, Hassan Whiteside, Bitadze, Cousins, TT, Vanderbilt…. .
Not sure if he wanted all of them, or just a few.
Also not sure if that eight could beat Cleveland State.
Turns out TT is taken, so maybe Lamar Odom?
One of them. Come on, man.
haha — good thing I didn’t say Andrew Bynum!
I think it was after reading the comments here after Cleveland’s second dramatic win over Boston that convinced me to finally get NBA League Pass. I didn’t watch every game, but I watched most and the regular season was a lot of fun. But of course it wouldn’t have been nearly as entertaining or informative without CtB, so thanks to Nate and Chris and everyone else!
Man, that was a great game… hell yeah daspec90 appreciate you OG!
Smart and Embiid have a good, od fashioned flop off.
Does Mrsteal stand for “Mrs. Teal” or “Mr. Steal?” If it’s non-binarily ambiguous, that’s cool too. Just curious (but not judgmental).
lmao we are both not non-judgmental bro
It’s a Ted Lasso quote.
Thanks for this write-up and for all the great content this year (and for many years, I was a lurker for quite awhile before this season). Hopefully the Cavs’ next season will be a long way from ending when May 1 rolls around!
you have made a lot of good posts. keep it up
You’re welcome as always Windmill, appreciate you lurking and dropping some knowledge as well! As Raoul said, I enjoy your posts as well!
Nice work Chris. I endorse this message!
Thank you OG Arch, you a real one!!!
Lmfao. Koby’s “own-goals” around the trade deadline cost himself a GMOY award.
https://twitter.com/RealDCunningham/status/1653791786391748611?s=20
what were Koby’s goals at the trade deadline?
Not adding anyone of significance followed by the Kevin Love debacle.
They have basically said their only real options of adding anyone of significance was through trading Caris. Was anyone moved this season that they could have realistically dealt Caris for that you like better than him?
Caris was really good. To me, keeping him and dropping Love cancel each other out.
I think the guy I heard most in the mix for him was Malik Beasley, who stinks right now and is a one-tool guy on offense anyways.
This is an utterly ridiculous assertion that defies belief and is evidence of the entire problem with the Cavs’ front office. Their “defense” of not being better is that they didn’t have options, which is just patently untrue. They didn’t even add Diakite to the playoff roster! The Cavs had options. And for them to say they didn’t proves the exact ignorance I’m complaining about.
https://twitter.com/oldseaminer/status/1647403775554928643?s=20
At the time of the trade deadline all those dudes were butt. All of them except Hart and Vando are butt now, and only Bey can shoot. Muscala played 1 minute for Boston! Bey has been worse than Love!
Nobody worth moving Caris for. This is weirdo Monday morning QB stuff.
Whiteside or cousins would have helped immensely against Mitchrob. Whiteside was literally the most productive bench center in the league the previous season. I’m not saying he was a world beater but he couldn’t have been worse than what they had. Dwight Howard would’ve been better.
Mitch Rob did what he was elite at all year against both big and small 5s. Those dudes are dogshit and there’s a reason they aren’t in the league. Giving Diakate some run would be defensible. Pulling Boogie out of the Z-League in Puerto Rico is…something else.
There are three ways to counter a dude like Mitchrob: pull him out of the paint or make him unplayable against “stretch” lineups, bring in someone even bigger and stronger (or at least strong enough to box out), or intentionally foul so much he’s unplayable due to his free throw shooting. The Cavs did none of those things.
Teams tried that! It didn’t work, judging by his production. In any case, you majoring in the minor issues.
God save us if we have to resort to intentional fouling or fourteen feet of PR league shit to get out of the first round. Love would have helped a bit, as I said, probably enough to swing Game 1, but if Hassan fucking Whiteside is an answer you strongly believe in iono…
I believe in analytics. They favored Whiteside with the Jazz. Obviously the rest of the NBA didn’t agree with me. But at least the Cavs would have tried something.
the data was a year and change old and the rest of the NBA has analytics, too. I just don’t think there was an answer on the scrap heap. that’ll change this offseason I think. Or they could just roll with Diakate and Brobley, which might not suck
Too light in the britches as AC would say.
Maybe? But they can kind of shoot it and the Charge offense seemed dynamic. There’s something internal there I hope with them and maybe Merrill. We have developed some nice guys
Don’t think Diakite was quite there but he needs to be in the mix next year, he’s a fun big. Weird to shit on the folks who developed and discovered him though.
Agree should have been on playoff roster
that is who I would have went with after Love quit.
I think there should’ve been a lot more consideration to trading Okoro and Cedi.
Cedi, yes. Okoro, nah. After the playoffs I’m sold on him as (at worst) a Josh Hart type. He can play and he’s an A+ athlete and our best defender at point of attack.
Josh Hart actually rebounds and passes… at best Okoro’s a Josh Hart that doesn’t rebound. No thanks.
Also, Okoro actually had trade value, given his youth… gotta actually trade something of value to get something.
sure, he had value. that’s b/c he’s a nice prospect! seems like the kind of dude you keep if you are short first round picks!
It’s called selling high, because he stinks as a shooter and rebounder.
you are selling high because the price for wings in general and young ones in particular is high.
unfortunately, you are also buying high because you are looking for an upgrade on the wing, which 25 other teams are also looking for! better to develop what you have.
cedi, on the other hand, is just a guy
Cedi isn’t bring shit in, he’s salary. Okoro is the carrot you dangle to actually get a vet who can play in the playoffs.
Yeah, I guess you’d have to think about Okoro for like Royce O Neal or TJ Warren or someone like that. Okoro was playing well so I get not going there in midseason but you probably look now.
Yup exactly.
so you are proposing a deadline trade of a starter for someone who has maybe a 50/50 chance of being better? which would have a 100% chance of disrupting team chemistry? and trade the future for a long shot at winning a couple more playoff games this year, when there is about a 0% chance of getting to the ECF anyway?
you are throwing up wild ideas to support your untenable theory that Koby is doing a bad job as GM.
textbook example of doubling down on a mistake.
Your reply doesn’t really deserve a response given how false and disrespectful it is, but for the record your allegation that I have an “untenable theory” regarding Koby just shows you don’t read or pay attention to what I’ve written. I literally wrote at the beginning of this season that Koby’s personnel sins have been forgiven by trading for Mitchell and dumping Collin Sexton. The failures of the this season lie with JB, not Koby. I also disagree with Nate and support Koby standing pat at the deadline and put 100% of the Love debacle on JB not Koby… and… Read more »
the tone has been kind of rough around here lately. like when you get in an argument playing basketball, politeness is in short supply. anyway, I agree that you have a nuanced opinion. I regard it as unlikely, but certainly plausible. the first paragraph above is a rather obvious critique, and hardly “false”. the second two are plausible critiques, perhaps disrespectful, but what the heck, there is a big argument going on. it is easy to confuse your position with that of the “hate everything” wing, who are “disrespectful” all the time — for example, the hundreds of times a… Read more »
I wouldn’t have had a problem with that, but I think Caris just carried more value as a main trade piece. Okoro or Cedi would likely just be filler imo.
Cedi for sure, Okoro would’ve had some value due to age.
but why would anyone give you anything for Okoro and Cedi?
Get off money maybe? I’m torn on trading Okoro bc he really is the last interesting young asset we have. But as Chris says maybe that’s why you do it now. Maybe offer up as an addition by subtraction trade for a team with too many wings willing to give up a few for a cost and team controlled guy with work ethic and development potential (Clips and Nets come to mind, maybe even the Raptors)
Earth to Nate: In case you forgot, Love asked to be released AFTER the trading deadline, which was a disadvantage for the team. They did him a favor, not unreasonable given his history with the team. The debacle was Love’s doing.
Counterpoint: the Cavs could have just played him and not given him a DNP the same day they were giving minutes to an off-the-street free agent.
dunno about that.
it is not unusual for guys to come back better after some time off. seeing as to how the other guys they tried were a flat tire, Love would have had his usual minutes back in a few weeks.
everyone agrees it sure would have been nice to have him in the playoffs, which is what they had been paying him for all these years. so, did the team tell him to get lost, or did he throw a hissy and demand it? maybe we will find out someday.
Absolutely a hissy imo but who knows?
I think Nate meant “own-goals”, as in an error by the player tipping the ball in his own goal.
This is correct. Apologies for the confusion.
I have no clue who votes on this, or if they know anything or not.
It is, however, a reasonable guess that they know more than the trolls who have been bashing Koby nonstop for years.
Remember when Dwayne Casey won COTY then got canned the next day?
This was like COTY-given how great Sacto was compared to a long history of eating shit, no one else was winning.
You’d think Altman would be lower, but it seems clear that the Mitchell move was liked and worked (more than any other 2022-23 big trade, including KD)
The GMOY was his to lose and he lost it with his own mid-season passivity.
….nah. The folks who had him as EOY in December still had him there in April. (b/r and others). Not trading for Sadiq Bey wasn’t the issue, it was the overall collapse, which is on the core 4
Or his own fault for not moving one of them instead of Lauri.
Lauri was the only good player there, though. Sexton was really bad, 40 games and a career low, Ochai was…fine for a rookie eventually, and the picks were low. With EM and DG on the roster, I’m not even convinced any of the pick swaps convey
oh, and of course there’s the matter of Allen being a better player and more potential than Lauri at the time (even though I think Lauri had had more NBA seasons than JA at the time). basically Lauri was clean Finnish Olynyk
I mean on one side you say everyone knows Whiteside is garbage despite the analytics, on the other side you say the analytics had Allen as the better player. You’re trying to have it both ways. My point is that Lauri probably made the most sense between him and Allen long term, and given Jarrett was coming off an All-Star season and he had a bigger contract, the Cavs could have extracted another player or saved their powder with Agbaji. Vando would’ve been perfect, especially since it should have been obvious that Mobley and Allen probably didn’t make sense offensively.… Read more »
As of last summer, it was at best a coin flip as to who makes the most sense: you are MMQBing again. Mitchell trade was a win-win, Love was a miss, keeping Caris was a win, and having our issues be with team construction vs. talent level is huge, especially not ever drafting higher than 3 since 2018 and missing on Luka, Trae, Ja, Zion, etc. FO has a good record but flopped in the playoffs. Lauri was an underachieving disappointing tweener for seven years and had just been vaporized in two play in games on defense, though he hit… Read more »
Woof. Lauri did not get vaporized on D against Atlanta in 22.
Fine. He only sucked against Brooklyn: still a significant underachiever prior to Utah
How exactly was Lauri an underachiever with the Cavs?
agree with Nate on this one.
Lauri was a bright spot for the Cavs in the playin games. I was looking forward to him becoming a major contributor this season, and was not enthusiastic about the big trade.
avoiding dumb trades is a key part of building a top team. remains to be seen how the Donovan trade works out. avoiding deadline trades this year was a major plus.
Great writeup
Thank you Tom! We need a Pestak Podcast Appearance!!!
Everyone keeps pointing out how mediocre Kev’s box numbers are in the playoffs which is fair, but the guys who were playing in the ‘offs in lieu of Kev for Cleveland posted wretched box numbers.
(except Cedi).
Yup, great point Nate… not asking for the moon, asking more than zero LMFAO
For a GM, not doing anything dumb is a win. Most of the moves people are griping about not happening are dumb as shit.
this is where I’m at. Moving Caris would have been dumb, and no one was giving value for Cedi and a pile of 2s midseason this time out.
good wings were going for a TON — wasn’t the price for OG like 4 FRPs, and he’s…fine? pretty good I guess…?
I just think you have to stretch a little to find a scenario where Love matters to the NYK outcome. Maybe they squeak out Game 1, which was essentially a one possession game at the end, and that gives some confidence and the core 4 has another game or two to get adjusted to playoff intensity.
Also holding on LeVert really was a win for Koby.
Yeah. Just wholeheartedly disagree. Love would’ve helped against Mitchrob immensely as a stretch player, a box-out player, and a foul-drawer. The falloff after Mobley and Allen (and just Mobley by the end of the series) was just impossibly stark.
I guess man. Vs MIA Mitch had 14 boards in Game 1 and had foul trouble in Game 2 (but he and Hartenstein had 14). I think you are stretching a lot here for a player you like
Nah. I’m really not. It’s just an endictment of how abysmal the Cavs coaching and players were that a 34 yo stretch big would’ve helped immensely.
you right on the players, don’t really care about the coaches, though JB was not bad enough to fire without a clear upgrade available.
if Garland and Mitchell each make one more three a game, this goes seven and we are having a different conversation. Adding Kevin Love doesn’t help Mitchell pass better or make Mobley stronger. Nothing we could have done with Love determined the outcome of our series.
If the Cavs ran a semblance of an offense built around screening and floor spacing, Mitchell passes better and there is more room for threes. Kev helps with both those things and the Cavs offensive coaching and substitutions were shite.
Well, let’s do that then now that we have a full off-season with the starters set!
WOW, as careful as Fedor is this speaks volumes: https://twitter.com/ChrisFedor/status/1653586244721311745?s=20
+1 on this — and thanks for the recap/postmortem and the dozens of recaps and live threads this year CLF — it would be podcasting, recapping and quick capping malpractice to say you are anything other than the CtB MVP this year, throwing the equivalent of full court assists on a regular basis! Bravo
Thank you Adam as always! I appreciate your constant support as well brother!
After watching the Heat nearly take a 2-0 lead in the Garden last night with mostly undrafted players (until the refs intervened) I’m wondering how many other supposedly washed or unusable Cavs bench players would actually look decent playing for Coach Spo.
I dont recall us ever playing Love at 5 as Spo has. Fedor is right
Not this season.
Yeah, funneling everything to the rim works with Allen and Mobley. Love is somewhat less vertical although he did a nice job for a year and a half drawing charges
Which is why you play a zone with Kev at the 5 for rebounding and the weak side big pinching for shot blocking.
you are saying a lot of stuff like the first person to think it. let’s assume for argument’s sake that the dude who has been in the NBA since diapers and has a rep for defense is aware of zones
JB doesn’t seem to be aware of effective execution of out of bounds plays, floor spacing lineups, or how to deal with the NBA challenge rules, so I’m not going to assume that he’s aware of zones. I mean the Heat are making JB look like a fool with their ability to leverage Kev into at least replacement level minutes (rather than the garbage the Cavs trotted out in Kev’s absence). I’m not sure what your argument is here.
He damn near cost them Game 5 at Milwaukee fouling down 2. Took a god damn miracle alley oop to get to OT. His effectiveness is exaggerated and his production is bad.
My point is that there are so many points of failure in Kevin Loves floor game that we are overlooking bc we think it’s coaching. Not playing Diakate is bad coaching but I’m sure all possibilities to make Love useful were considered before the buyout.
Thank you Nate, Chris, Ben, Eli, and other CtB contributors (including commenters) for your many, many hours keeping the conversations open, interesting, and relevant. True Shooting Percentage vs. New York in these playoffs . . . 59.4% Garland, 58.2% Mitchell in Game 1; 73.3% Garland, 66.6% Mitchell in Game 2; 22.9% Garland, 54.1% Mitchell in Game 3; 66.4% Garland, 29.1% Mitchell in Game 4; 67.1% Garland, 51.2% Mitchell in Game 5; For reference, Garland was 58.7% and Mitchell 61.4% during the regular season. So it seems Garland was eventually able to overcome New York’s defensive adjustments after Game 2, while… Read more »
You’re welcome as always Treize, you always drop some nice pearls of wisdom including this one.
100% agree, I think DG found a little something especially in Game 4, and Mitchell was totally out of rhythm.
Don’t normally post our own tweets, but I was proud of this one.
https://twitter.com/CavsTheTweets/status/1653785561839042562?s=20
This is your best recap ever. Thank you for everything you do and have done this season.
Thank you Nate, appreciate your unwavering support brother.
CLF: You the MVP of the season, as you were last. Thank you for all you do.
Thank you Simmo as always! I’ve always appreciated your posts brother, keep on keepin on!
Yeah Chris,,,spot on.They’re gonna waste a year with the wrong coach and a team that needs some changes in how it’s constructed.
Yup, it’s interesting talking to fans of other NBA teams on their Cavs’ takes… they can’t believe J.B. didn’t get fired LMFAOOO
My gut is that you get your wish at the Allstar break if we don’t have the top record in the East then
I am still bitter about the end of this season. At the surprising beginning of last season (Mobley’s rookie year) it was all good vibes…now none of that is left and we are reading articles about the GM giving a full vote of confidence to JB (i would, but with a caveat–saying the end of the season was unacceptable and the team, coach included, needs to get better), articles about Donny wanting to go to NY, etc. Just no good vibes because the team STUNK. Biggest two were definitely Donny Bball and Jarrett Allen. They just did not show up.… Read more »
The usual timeline for a young team is several years until they can seriously compete. The Cavs got off to a surprisingly good start the last two years. Unfortunately they thudded back to reality when the going got tough.
So we are disappointed as we ought to be. There need to be some changes in addition to getting older.
That’s my feeling. We got a glimpse of Mobley’s specialness Year 1 because I’m thinking he was allowed to run wild. They tried to build skillsets this season and he flatlined a little bit. He’ll be better for it though. I feel the same way about Garland and DM co-existing. And the season thudded? maybe. If Butler doesn’t come back as good as the guy who beat the Bucks, Knicks might be in the ECF.
The problem is that you can no longer leave JB in charge of Mobley’s development. It’s criminal at this point. Until he learns to shoot, Evan should never be parked in the corner.
Agree with this 100%
This is it. The question headed into this season was if we were even better than ATL Toronto or Miami in the regular season and could we avoid the playin. Expectations rose and we were somewhat victims of our own success.
Thanks DanK as always! Well said as always, I’ve always looked forward to your thoughts on all things Cavs, thankfully we got Burrow to look forward to???? LMFAOOOO
hell yeah Joey B will calm down my Cavs woes soon enough!
Good cap. Agree the Cavs are young and needed to go through this progression (lost play-in badly too). I love Kevin Love. He’s a champ and broke the curse. Glad they re-signed him through the rebuild. Had no issues even with the hilarious (mostly) drama… Fit Out…Love vs Thomas? Sexton? I don’t know that Love drags them past the Knicks. He fills the stat sheet early when he comes in but this version of him seems best suited for 15m at least against these Knicks. Asking him to do more is what we saw in G2 Miami-NYK. He helps in… Read more »
Excellent analysis except for one thing:
I doubt if anyone hates Love. Most of us love Love, but acknowledge that he comes with some issues, some of which cause trouble for the team, such as the former coach quitting.
This was pointed out in response to incessant yammering about “mismanaging Love …” by the trolls.
I look forward to learning what went down with Love, but at this point no one has any clue.
Appreciate you DaveR… reasonable take and that’s all I’m trying to get at. Would Love take over a game? Probably not, but he still has a positive impact on the game, and is useful on the margins, and in the playoffs you need every edge you can get.
But the rebounding percentage is huge. It’s not just how many rebounds Kev pulled down. It’s how much better they rebounded as a team when he was on the floor. It’s also screening, stretching the floor with gravity, the ability to negate Robinson at the rim.
I think what also makes this is a little more notable is the “way” it happened. It would be one thing if the Cavs had decided to trade Love. But they’d intended to keep him (according to Koby on the day of the trade deadline). This was a result of a breakdown in the coach-player relationship. And no matter what side you take in the debate over whether Love was a headache or worth the money, etc, it is undeniably a coach’s job to manage the personalities in his locker room, including their expectations about playing time. Hopefully, even if… Read more »
Manage expectations about playing time? WTF? Every player wants to be on the floor 100% of the time.
I think you know what I mean. There was no reason for JB to tell Love “I’ll never ever play you again no matter what happens this season,” which from various reports appears to be the message that got across to Love. From a purely team-oriented selfish perspective, why tell him that and poison his commitment to be here? And it was also short-sighted from a basketball perspective bc Love had as much potential to be helpful in post-season as most of the roster outside the Core 4 and Levert, and he had triple the playoff experience. From a group/team… Read more »
that would be totally crazy, which is why I doubt it happened.
much more likely he was told the truth, that he wasn’t likely to be playing much for a while.
I believe what Love said publicly after he’d joined the Heat is that he felt left in the dark about what the plan was to ever reincorporate him. So, he was clearly told he was out of the rotation in favor of Wade; and you’re right, JB didn’t literally add the Dillon Brooks line, and maybe he expressed some optimism about a possible playoff role. But I agree with Nate that the minute Love saw that JB could somehow find minutes for off-the-street Danny Green, he didn’t trust whatever JB was telling him.
Love was the second highest paid dude on the team, and one of the ten most important guys in team history. What are we doing here?
so what if he is second highest pay?
Do you know who is the fourth highest pay on the Cinci Reds right now?? How does Key Griffy Jr. sound? You don’t see him getting many minutes in 2023.
Cmon man. Robinson isn’t being negated at the rim by Love or Bam or anyone else, he’s the best offensive rebounder in the league.
Love probably wins them Game 1. But Games 3-5 were so ass that it still feels like Knicks in 6
Love won the Heat Game 5 against Bucks, think he would’ve helped more than one game, and he helps specifically in the area where the Cavs are dogshit.
He damn near lost them Game 5! He fouled down 2 and the lead hit 4. It took a miracle play to get to OT.
15/12 and a +13 in his minutes.
that doesn’t mean he won them the game! it means he was a positive overall contributor who made a bonehead play in crunch time that nearly lost them the game.
Yeah he did, no chance the Heat are winning the game without him, simple as.
The guy you can’t win without (a double-double and positive plus minus) isn’t the guy who won the game. The guy who won the game is the most impactful player – that wasn’t Love
THANK YOU CLF AGAIN A GREAT ARTICLE—- WISH THE CAVS PLAYED AS GOOD AS YOU WRITE👍👍👍😀——- ALWAYS ENJOY SPENDING TIME / SHARING THOUGHTS—-OPINIONS WITH MY GREAT BUNCH OF CTB “ BRO S “ —-OFF SEASON SHOULD BE INTERESTING AND HOPEFULLY PRODUCTIVE ——-UNTIL THEN “ MORE 🍺 BEER PLEASE “
Thank you NOMAD as always! MORE BEER PLEASE!!!!