Live Thread: Cavs @ Pacers
2023-02-05Good evening CtB!
The Cavs have ventured to the Crossroads of America to take on the Indiana Pacers in a tough Central Division tilt. The Cavs are looking to win back to back games for the first time in a month, as well as finally show some improvement on the road. The Pacers are looking to bounce back after a brutal stretch without their star guard Tyrese Haliburton. If the Cavs have any designs on winning this game, they better be ready to bring it on defense or else they could easily get embarrassed as they did in late December giving up 135 in that loss. But the Cavs are clearly the superior team, they need to show that they can take care of business when it’s necessary against an inferior opponent (Pacers 25th in the NBA in net rating).
What do the Pacers want to do? On offense, they love to run (fourth fastest pace team in the NBA) and move the ball extremely well. The Cavs will need to get in passing lanes and force turnovers, as the Pacers are a very turnover prone team. On defense, the Pacers are terrible defensive rebounding team, Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley will need to impact the game by crashing the glass to get cheap buckets on offense.
Caris LeVert is out with injury and Kevin Love is out of the rotation currently. Slop starved fans should keep their head on a swivel as the first big drop has happened with the Kyrie Irving trade to the Mavs. Will the Cavs get involved? Stay tuned…
Tip off is scheduled for 5:00PM Eastern time and will be broadcasted live on Bally Sports Ohio/Great Lakes, Go Cavs!
HEY I JUST FOUND OUT MY FRIENDS DAUGHTER IS SINGING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM FOR WEDNESDAY GAME // IS THERE ANYONE GOING TO THE GAME WHO COULD POSSIBLY RECORD AND SEND IT TO CTB// NATE OR CLF SO WE CAN ALL APPRECIATE HER AWESOME VOICE //MUCH APPRECIATED IF ANYONE CAN DO THIS // I OWE YOU A BEER 🍺 👍
Wow, awesome to hear NOMAD!
That is slim pickings. There are a couple guys spotrac has at SG who could play SF (Dillon Brooks, Danny Green, Lonnie Walker, Josh Richarson, Alec Burks, Wil Bartin, Terrence Ross).
But we don’t have a ton of SG minutes available. Between Mitchell and DG (when Rubio is on the court), that does not leave much, barring injury. Times when only one of DG/DM/RR is on the court would be it. Those guys played 90 of 96 available G minutes last game. And Okoro/LeVert/Cedi will eat some of those.
FWIW, here is the FA crop by position. Starting with small forwards. In decreasing order of their last earnings. Via spotrac
UFA: H Barnes, K Oubre, J Crowder, J Ingles, T Craig, C Reddish, C Johnson, J Winslow, A Iguodala, TJ Warren, J Jackson, S Mykhailiuk, Y Watanabe, T Brown, J Morgan, J Toscano-Anderson, A Lamb, T Antetokounmpo, K Bates-Diop, M Ryan, S Johnson, J McDaniels, O Brissett, D Williams.
Barnes is out of our price range ($11 mil max). Cam Johnson & Yuna Watanabe would be my choices, but they are more shooting 4s than 3s who can D up. Warren can score. Craig (32), Crowder (32), & Oubre (27) best of what is left.
Player options: K Middleton, R Gay, O Porter, D House, D Jones Jr.
Team options: K Knox, K Edwards, H Jones Jr, K Martin Jr, N Marshall.
Otto Porter did a wonderful job for GSW last year, but has missed virtually the whole year with a foot injury. Risky but could come cheap. His option is $6.1 million.
I’d love Herb Jones but no way the Pels don’t pick up that option.
I’ll also be glad when the Cam Reddish rumors pass. A lot of people , not here, want Reddish for some reason.
Jaylen Brown out tonight with ‘non covid illness’, for all the tin foiled hatters out there.
Edit: sorry, ‘questionable’ tonight.
He must be going to the Lakers for Westbrook!
There have apparently been some KD/ Brown trade rumors, but I’ll believe it when the paperwork is signed and delivered.
That was the rumor when KD asked for a trade earlier. If KD does want out, I cannot believe it would stay under wraps for long.
Plus the Nets would want the news out. It would likely create competition between suitors, and KD has more value with 4 playoffs runs under contract than 3.
No foil for me on this one.
A deal I might do: Cedi + Windler for McDermott. IDK what Dougie’s D looks like these days. Ig playable, I might pull the trigger. But if he’s playable, the Spurs likely have better offers. We’d need to throw in a pick to have ANY shot.
If you want a swing for the fences move with Love’s expiring, it is probably Ben Simmons. The salaries work straight up. It is unlikely the Nets give up on him so soon. And we would have a HUGE tax bill for the rest of his contract (2 years). He cannot shoot. At all.
I am a firm no on Simmons, because I do not like his attitude/work ethic. But if you want a (semi) realistic big swing with Love’s contract, this might be it.
There are some gettable guys in the $20+ mil range, but most are PGs (Conley, Rozier, Lowry, DeRo) or guys who have value (Vucevic, Bogey) or both. And now LeVert’s contract works to match & he has value as a player.
I think the only big swings with Love would be Hayward & Simmons. We’d have to add salary for Westbrook to work.
No thanks.
Agreed.
Now, maybe there are guys I am missing. Or we could certainly use Love’s contract to get multiple guys making less money. But I figured ince you get to that point, teams would just ask for LeVert. Though I do see reports out there of Love having value.
Simmons seems like a full-on train wreck at this point. Hurt a lot, can’t shoot, can’t shoot FTs. So far all the proposals seem worse than keeping Caris around.
Remember when some reports had the Cavs interested in Simmons in the offseason? I wasn’t in on that at all, but it would have been even more of a disaster than I had feared.
I don’t know why I feel it wouldn’t be so bad but I’d take a flier on Simmons. Could some of his problem be that Philly really messed him up and then going to Brooklyn did him no favors. Maybe he just needs an environment that welcomes him and is willing to invest in getting him back to where he needs to be. His defense is still very good and I’d love to see a lineup here with him at the 4 or 5 operating in the paint. Or a lineup with him at the point dishing off to Garland… Read more »
haha — a couple years ago there was CtB discussion about what kind of haul the Cavs could give Philly for Simmons. Now he has a high potential ceiling, but is the longest of long shots to ever do anything. Kind of like Franmil Reyes, except FR is a likeable guy.
Just for gits and shiggles, looking around the leage for possible distressed asset Love trades. Again, we will have to take on long term salary, here. Love makes $28.9 mil. We could take on roughly $36.2 mil in salary. Another team in the tax would have to send out $23.15 mil to take Live back.
Charlotte could be sellers.
Hayward works straight up. $30.1 mil. Played 29 games this year. 30% from deep. $30 mil next year.
Rozier is not a good fit here (small combo guard) and likely has some value. They might be able to get picks for him.
Oubre is hurt and is a FA at season’s end. 30.8% from deep.
Verdict: no thank you.
No thank you to Hayward. He’s washed up and apparently a locker-room cancer.
Portland.
We have been liked to Hart, but that is for LeVert or Cedi+Windler. If Okoro was trending bust, I’d do it. But since not, not. But we need scoring more than non-shooting 6’5″ defenders. No.
They start 3 guards + Grant and Nurkic, so a 6’8″ wing is something they don’t have. Nas Little is interesting, but is 6’5″ and has a poisin pill that makes a trade silly.
Hart is decent, but no thanks.
I’d look at the buy out market. Josh Hart is also only 6’5.
I hope y’all don’t mind if I try to work on the morality play of Kyrie Irving going on in my mind. Of course, it’s all just overpaid children throwing a ball through a metal ring. But Kyrie, while he was not The Guy, he is the guy who threw that ball through the metal ring and ended >50 years of pain. And then he turned his back on all of it with disdain (costing us another Championship I would say). It looks like he won’t ever be showing up at autograph signings at the local Y (think Franco Harris… Read more »
It’s annoying to think they could have still been playing for chips together the past 6 years. That being said, we got one, and I’m very happy to now have some “nice young men” to root for.
Yeah, this is a really good group. We’re lucky.
Rumor has it the Nets did not want to send him to LA because that is what he wanted. Good for them. Though they only may be delaying it for a couple months.
IDK if leaving cost us a chip or not. The Durant Dubs handled us pretty easy (4-1) when Irving was here. Irving being here might have made LeBron want to stay to win chips, but getting away from Irving, who sucks the joy out of everything, might have pushed him to leave ASAP.
Just got through replay, impressive performance by the team. Sorry I couldn’t join the LT.
One gripe (yes, already mentioned by others), and it’s becoming an issue : JB knowing when to pull starters at the conclusion of the game. With the intense match time the squad face this next week, this becomes a key skill (or fail).
Can’t wait for the trade deadline to pass. Some of these proposed trades listed are straight up moronic.
They call it “silly season” for a reason.
FWIW, the Cavs cannot trade a 1st round pick until after the 2024 draft. The Stepien Rule prevents teams from trading 1st round picks in consecutive years. Out first tradeable 1st is 2031 as our 1st in 2023 (Indiana, top 14 protected), 2025 (Utah), 2027 (Utah), and 2029 (Utah) are all spoken for.
However, the NBA also had a rule against trading picks more than 7 years in the future. The “Seven Year Rule” means we cannot trade our 2031 1st until after the 2024 draft.
Thus, one major avenue to improve the team is not open after the Mitchell trade. We cannot trade 1sts. Our trade options are existing players and 2nd round picks. We own all our 2nd rounders except 2024 and have incoming 2nds in 2023 (GSW), 2025 (Bucks), 2026 (Lakers), and 2027 (Denver). And a GSW 2024 2nd that may not convey.
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm
Nor are we gonna have cap space for the foreseeable future with our core 4 here. Spida, DG, & Allen make $86 mil plus. Mobley’s extention will kick in after 2 more years, and until then, he, Okoro, Rubio, & Wade add another $33 mil (or more) to the total. That’s $120 mil with 7 guys. Yes, the cap will go up some, but we still have to pay LeVert (or a replacement), Cedi (or a replacement), etc.
Upshot, we are gonna have to use exceptions (Full mid-level/taxpaying mid-level, trade exception, etc) to sign players above vet min level.
This is not earth-shaking analysis. We pushed most of our chips in the middle with the Spida trade. Our cap space and draft capital took big hits, and we cannot trade a furst for two more years.
Which means, I think we will be mostly risk-averse in making moves. Our ability to recover from a bad one will be limited. And we are looking for role players, not rolling the dice on high upside/high risk guys (KPJ, for example).
I think you are right. Hope so.
Similarly, internal development is gonna be precious. Wade turned into a keeper and is signed longer term. Okoro seems to be improving to the level where he is a legit contributor on the wing (fingers crossed). Or at least to the level where getting rid of him would be idiotic absent a home run return.
I would not forget about guys like the elder Mobley (2 way), Diop (playing abroad), Diakite (2 way), or even Travers (playing abroad). Or even guys like Cooper with the Charge. Some Delly/Wade/Miami Heat developmental gold strike is certainly possible.
Great work and insight Jason !!!
I don’t think they really need to make a move. If they can find somebody who wants cap space with the Levert or Love salaries then fine I guess. But it’s hard to overestimate how much of the recent struggles were due to those dreadful bench units. Replacing Love/Levert with Wade/Rubio should keep us solidly out of the play-in, which should be the goal.
Yep. I think you are spot on. In my typical, long-winded way, I was working towards where you are there.
Our core 4 + Okoro, Rubio, & Wade are going nowhere. The guys at the bottom of the roster (Lopez, Neto, Stevens, Windler) have no appreciable trade value. That leaves LeVert, Osman, and Love.
Love has fallen out of the rotation and is not gonna fetch much other than distressed assets from teams looking to dump salary. If we move him, that is what we are looking at. Gordon Hayward, Ben Simmons, Russell Westbrook, John Wall type moves. Maybe not THAT bad, but of that ilk. Maybe a team looking to clear space for a move this off-season, might offer up something better, but the 2023 FA class is not star-studded.
Which brings us to LeVert & Cedi. Since we cannot attach firsts, any upgrade here is gonna be limited. For desireable guys, we get outbid. Less desireable guys (ability, contract, etc) is likely what you are looking at. Hardaway Jr. Hart. Etc.
LeVert is the better player, he makes more. And would attract a better player back, most likely. But he could walk at the end of the year. We have control over Cedi for another year.
I still like Cedi so much. He’s a bit of a dumb dumb but he does (albeit not super well) the one thing we need more than anything on the roster: score from the wing.
I fully understand why JB gets frustrated with him sometimes. But we need wing scoring. Hart can pass/defend but not score. We have Okoro (& Stevens) for that defender not-scorer role.
If we re-sign Caris (big IF), he should still be a tradeable asset going forward. Cedi as well, though less value on a small expiring.
With Love, it is now or never.
Bottom line, I think there is room in our current 9 man rotation for both Cedi & LeVert. Okoro seems the 5th starter ATM. Rubio the 3rd guard. Wade the first (and only) big off the bench. LeVert & Cedi slot nicely into the wing spots. Cedi is perfectly paid for a guy sitting 8th-11th in a rotation. And we have control of him for 1 more year. Unless is is a clear upgrade, I hold him. LeVert is trickier. How much do you wanna pay a reserve? Is he gonna be OK with that? If I can get a… Read more »
Great game. Wish it started 3 hours later, but I’ll take the win. They’ve got 6 more games until the AS break. Finish strong.
I’ll take the win too.
It is time to start ramping up the winning percentage.
Didn’t watch much but two in a row!!! Go Cavs!
Sorry I didn’t get to catch this with u guys. Great wn.
Grizz lost to Toronto. Good. Would love to have a better record than everyonexsans Denver out west. Not that I think wexate at a Finals level, but just in case.
Also, there was a scary incident with the pacers where there was a confrontation with Morant’s camp & some Pacers players & then an SUV rode up on them with a laser sighting dot afterwards. Associates of Morant. Lovely.
link:
https://theathletic.com/4157284/2023/02/05/pacers-grizzlies-laser-ja-morant-investigation/?source=twitterhq
The similarities of Morant and Derek Rose are ominous. I could not wish harder for Morant’s success. He is as joyful and awe inspiring a player as we have seen in a while. Literally creates happiness with his athletic ability.
I have been a Morant supporter since college. You gotta hope he stays healthy.
If okoro’s growth is real and not a couple week fluke…i might owe JB and/or the FO an apology. If he can shoot 35% from 3 and learn to rebound well…we have a very different but maybe as impactful player as Jimmy Butler on our hands. Trying to find a comp in my head…something like Shane Battier in his prime.
Bruce Bowen. Bowen was a little longer, and Battier a combo forward. He would guard PFs. Ice is checking Morant and struggles guarding bigger dudes.
Ice is more athletic and potentially more juice off the dribble. But also more of a guard. Battier was like 6’8″ IIRC.
Bowen was valuable. But not the level okoro needs to get to. But that made me think of Sean Elliott. Also taller than okoro but if okoro’s handles driving continue he should aspire to that dude’s impact. Bowen was a one trick pony on offense. Okoro has a chance to be better.
I say dream a little… why not Jimmy Butler? Similar builds and athleticism, no reason Ice can’t develop a midrange game. He basically did a Jimmy Buckets job the other night when Memphis put Morant on him.
How about Andre Iguodala, seems like his skill set is at least broadly comparable to Okoro’s including the elite point of attack defense and highly athletic finishing. Same height as well, maybe a little stouter build but Okoro is pretty strong already at just 22.
Butler is 6’8.
Dean wade changed the entire game in the 2nd quarter on D. With this roster…getting to play him at the 3 sometimes is a cheat code. Not saying he is a top 5 sf in the league even though he clearly is…but if you got to play him healthy on THIS roster he is a cheat code.
KUZMA ALREADY OUT FOR TOMORROW S GAME BEAL IS DOUBTFUL——-ICE IS 12/14 FROM THE FIELD THE LAST 2 GAMES//. I CAN LIVE // DRINK TO THAT 🥃—WOULD BE FANTASTIC TO GO ON A NICE WINNING STREAK BEFORE THE ALL STAR BREAK
AMEN
DAMN 5:00 STARTS ——WAS JUST GETTING READY TO SETTLE IN FOR 7:00 START DID GET TO SEE THE LAST 10 MINUTES. WTF 🤬 OH WELL CAN T WASTE THESE ICE COLD 🍻 WILL WATCH REPLAY TOMORROW. 1ST TIME I THINK ICE ACTUALLY OUTPLAYED HALIBURTON WHEN THEY FACED EACH OTHER. KEEP IT GOING ICE MAN “ OKORO ISLAND “ GROWING DAILY 👍👍👍👍👍
Nice to finally get a couple wins in a row.
Both blowouts, too! Amazing what Ricky does for this team.
RoLo with the YOLO 3
This schedule is completely ridiculous. Two back to backs in the same week.
gotta learn to win b2b’s. no better time than right now
33 assists is winning basketball
Yep. DG & Ice with REALLY nice nights. 10 dimes off the bench does not happen often for non-Rubio types.
A transition foul after a made FT. Wow.
JB a bit slow on the uptake, there.
Classic JB, doesn’t trust the deep bench to hold a 26-pt lead with 4 minutes to go. Even has Donovan still in there on his gimpy groin.
Insane balanced scoring from the starting 5 tonight.
Finally
Free Neto. Get the damn reserves in. So dumb.
Why are our starters in the game still?
No idea. Thought he would take them out at 4 min
dumb play Mobley, finish them off strong
Pretty impressive today.
Yep. Most impressive road win in a while. First winning streak in a month.
Now let’s get another tomorrow.
DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS LETS GOOOO
Love Mobley’s weak side steals
Prepare for tomorrow w some more reserves
Yep. Neto. Put Cedi back in. Stevens. Let’s get Loveout there & see if he can hit a couple shots.
JA looking like Dr J. FU#K YEAH
That shouod do it. Up 26. White flag time, hopefully.
Replacing the Love/Levert minutes with Wade/Rubio minutes is everything
Eade is bettercdefensively & Kev has not hit a triple in like 3 weeks. LeVert is a serviceable 3rd facilitator but Rubio is elite.
Cavs shooting has been great in big part because DG and Rubio are delivering perfect passes in the sweet spots.
MOBLEY HUSTLE
Maybe a couple of minutes for Kevin before tomorrow’s game?
Let’s get all the starters 20.
Just tuning in Go Cavs!
Rubio has made me completely forget that Caris is out. We look awfully good with Ricky doing his Ricky thing.
10 dimes tonight. Rubio is an elite orchestrator/passer. Not merely good. Elite.
You know, we couod have all 5 starters get 20 tonight. DG is there. Mitchell has 19, Ice 18, and JA 16. Mobes 15.
RICKY RUBIO MASTERCLASS
MAJESTIC
MOBLEY FINISH AND ONE!
DARIUS GARLAND MVP
DG has really found his game. The kid is the best out there.
WADE MAKING PLAYS EVERYWHERE
GREAT DEFENSE WADE
GREAT DEFENSE TWO POSSESSIONS IN A ROW CLAMP IT DOWN
TJ MCCONNELL DUMB FOUL!!!
God I hate McConnell
JA out of control
Crappy close that quarter. Down to 14.
We got a game now.
terrible close to the quarter, defense was garbage again
38 pacer points is bullshit
He got fouled five steps before the bucket. WTF?
Ricky immediately takes command of the pace and thus the game
JA JOHNNY ON THE SPOT
RUBIO FOR THREE
Ricky!
ICE ON FIRE
A stop after 7 straight!
Ice is still hot. .
Ice schooling some fools…
WHAT A PASS MITCHELL TO ICE!!!!
WHAT A PASS DG TO MOBLEY
Turner absolutely torching us
We need to go at him more. Though he did just get a block.
Directly. Big vs big.
Cavs defense has gone completely to shit LMFAO
Five. Six.
We need a TO. Pacers scoring at will.
Cavs are playing Pacers pace, gonna be in trouble soon
Agreed. Good TO. From 23 to 15.
OKORO ON FIRE!!! WHAT A FINISH