Podcast Episode 143: Until We Meet Again, Uncle Drew
2017-08-22https://soundcloud.com/ctb-5/episode-143-until-we-meet-again-uncle-drew
Happy Trails, Kyrie. With the news of Mr. Irving’s trade to the Celtics we sounded the conch and Tom Pestak, Ben Werth, Nate Smith, and EvilGenius assembled in the podcast booth to break it all down. We all gave our knee jerk reactions to the trade and gave our yays or nays to Isaiah Thomas, Jay Crowder, (up the) Ante Zizic, and the Nets’ 2018 draft pick. We also discussed the enigma that is Kyrie Irving and whether this trade makes the Cavs better in the long term and short term. Playing the imp’s advocate was Tom Pestak who held out hope that Isaiah Thomas and Jay Crowder could improve the Cavs. The rest of us were more… skeptical.
Other topics included: are the Cavs’ still a finals team? What are LeBron’s plans for the Summer of 2018? (Including some inside dirt on the Lakers situation). What is going to happen with the rest of the roster? Can Boston beat the Cavs in the playoffs, (or are they even the East’s second best team anymore)? Are the Cavs’ still a finals team? We take on all this and more as we wish a fond farewell to Uncle Drew.
As always, listen above, on Soundcloud, iTunes, or Google Play.
Here is the link to the very good article from Schuhmann on nba.com regarding the Irving/IT/Crowder swap. Very good stuff.
http://www.nba.com/article/2017/08/23/numbers-know-kyrie-irving-isaiah-thomas-trade
That is a very good article. I don’t know that it does much to convince me that IT is KI’s equal, since to me the section on KI’s clutch-ness cements where I think he was most valuable to the Cavs, and it does a good job of pointing out how much IT’s ability to draw fouls and get to the line helps his efficiency (an aspect that tends to decline in the playoffs due to how they are officiated). What it did open my eyes to a bit more was how effective Crowder was last year, and that he very… Read more »
I always saw him as the best piece coming over.
me too.
Love Crowder.
Given the IT hate on here, how many people would do this?
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y8fx9yjr
https://twitter.com/Pchopz_/status/901068084433358848
https://twitter.com/Pchopz_/status/901068578539089920
Yep. This kills the idea that Griff was somehow the Kyrie whisperer.
If he was lining up a a double trade to get George and Bledsoe, I’d say he knew what he was doing….that would be a team that had a shot at the Warriors…
Agree. Griff was great. But also seems to be the source of pissing off Kyrie.
It seems like everyone pissed off Kyrie, except Dredrick the Helicopter Parent.
Apparently KI was pissed after winning the title, like immediately after…I’m not too upset about Griff supposedly hurting his feeling because he was trying to win titles.
I’m not sure the transition to Boston will be any easier for Kyrie, unless he decides to grow up.
He’d better… or else he’ll have to deal with this guy…
The greatest coach in the history of basketball………………………..///////////////////////////////////sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
What if it’s really *Dredrick* who pisses off Kyrie, but he takes it out on everyone else?
You just blew my mind!
https://twitter.com/Pchopz_/status/901077661254025217
Yes, in a heartbeat.
I would.
Interesting. I am sort of tempted too. I do worry a bit about our O if LBJ is only creator. That is the downside of Beverly, and the unuique aspect of Thomas. Thomas is probably only guy out there that comes close to Kyrie on O.
Curry?
Hate is a strong word… I don’t love IT’s game or his inability to defend at his height, but that doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate his effort, determination and attitude… Beverly would certainly be a better defensive option though….
Agree. I don’t mind IT on the roster, as long as he’s not your starting PG.
What if we start Rose and play Thomas 28 minutes a game as 6th man?
I’m less of a fan of Rose, then I am of IT. So no thanks.
I think IT will be the starter (assuming his hip is healed), and then DWade will get the crunch minutes after he signs the vet min sometime between now and February…
I don’t hate Thomas, but I do think he just had the best season he will ever have, on a team that was geared to having him dominate the ball and score. I would definitely do this trade. My only concern would be a scoring drop off…but they could always use the Nets pick to try to grab another scorer, if they can pry the pick out of Gilbert’s cold, dead hands…
You could always trade the pick and Shump for Beverley. I know some are enamored with the pick. I don’t see it have as much value as others.
Actually you’d have to do it another way. Shump makes twice as much as Pat Beverly, and Beverly cannot be traded with another player.
The pick and shump for Beverly? The pick is worth 3 times what IT is worth.
See I’m less high on the pick. I don’t think they will move it either, so it’s probably a moot point. Maybe Dan can win the lottery again with Rizzo, and his faction of media members he uses to pump his propaganda campaign.?
Restriction is gone 8/27/17. Don’t need to worry about that.
Hell no. Wait for the CP3/Harden thing to blow up & then offer them IT, Shump + filler (Calderon, Green, Zizic, RJ, etc) + the Brooklyn pick for CP3.
I like that.
And honestly price should be lower on CP3 if that experiment goes sideways. I’d do Shump and pick, especially if that pick looks worse by the deadline.
I would do that yesterday. The Clips will not, however.
You couldn’t finish telling me what the trade is before I declined. Value-wise, that’s taking 50 cents on the dollar. If that. Not saying Beverly is half the player, but the value is about that.
Apparently Shump requested a trade
Per McMenamin: Lost in the attention surrounding Irving’s trade request is that Iman Shumpert also requested a trade after the season, multiple sources told ESPN. Cleveland was in talks to trade Shumpert and his $10.3 million contract to Minnesota or Houston, but both deals fell apart. Logic would tell you that the Cavs will remain motivated to find a team to take Shumpert.
Is he really that dumb?
He was unplayable during the playoffs/finals. He could be, along with Lue’s stupidity, one of the main reasons we lost game three(and the finals).
Had we had Crowder or God forbid, had played Derrick, maybe things would had been different.
Yes, he is. Just look at all those missed rotations and closing to poor shooters & leaving good shooters he does on D. He’s a good individual defender, terrible team defender. No one wants him. We should have kept Liggins, at least he stayed in his lane, was $9 million cheaper, and a better team defender to boot.
Conflicting reports:
https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/901134551593955333
Recently? Good riddance. Silly to request a trade from a team actively trying to get rid of you. Shump was close with Kyrie wasn’t he?
I believe Shump is ill-suited to be on a championship team. I’m sure he loves basketball but it seems like he does not love it quite enough to put in the work Bron and Co. expect. He’s too interested in his other pursuits…
Good. He probably knows his minutes are gone with Crowder here.
GREAT IDEA EVIL ( LBJ OWNERSHIP) —–HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THAT SCENARIO MYSELF—-THIS WOULD BE THE TIME FOR GRIFF TO SELL —-SELL HIGH —-ESPECIALLY IF HE HAS PRIOR KNOWLEDGE THAT LEBRON IS LEAVING IF HE REAMAINS THE OWNER —-WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT CONCEPT BECOME REALAITY
‘Griff’….Freudian slip…..:D
Vs the Cavs in the Finals the Dubs were 121 ORtg. Not a perfect comparison. I get that. And I get that putting IT on a poor defensive team could be disasterous.
My take is that it is possible to play serviceable D vs GSW with IT on the court vs the Dubs (Cs have done it with Crowder as the anchor) and pretty darn good D vs them with IT off. And I gleefully admit Lue will have to change our scheme. Our scheme needs to change. Anyone who watched the Finals can see that.
For some context for the IT is useless against the Warriors crowd (not that it will help much). That stat where the Dubs feasted on the Cs for 108 pts per 100 with him on & 87 with him off over the last 3 years. Reaction = OH NO! THAT IT IS UNPLAYABLE vs THE DUBS! Reality: GSWs ORtg (pts per 100) the last 3 years was 110, 114.9 & 115.9 for a 113.6 average. With IT on the floor, the Cs held GSW below their average ORtg by 5 points per possession. Conclusion: I am not saying IT isn’t… Read more »
Unfortunately, the Cavs are far from a good defensive team.
True enough. Crowder should help. If we can get rid of Shumpert, that will help. Jefferson played the 6th most minutes on the team and was worse than Iving on D. Frye is also terrible. Might have to live with some Channing as we still have only 3 usable bigs at the moment.
And, we were a pretty good defensive team 2 of the last 3 years, and were pretty good for stretches in the POs this year.
While watching the Tribe pound Sale vs Boston last night, my neighbor and I discussed who would have believed the most stable ownership/management/coach relationship among Cleveland’s pro sports team is the Indians. Dysfunctional is too polite a term to describe Jimmy Haslam and his litany of changes among GMs and coaches for the Browns. And of course the financial fraud committed by his Pilot chain of stores. Comic Sans Dan has not exactly distinguished himself – props for the big checkbook of course – with some of his major decisions: rehiring Mike Brown, jettisoning Griffin without a solid Plan B… Read more »
I don’t give Dan Gilbert that much credit for opening up his check up, seeing that he’s increased his value from something like $3 B to $6 B in recent years. To me, that is something he is supposed to do.
Here’s an interesting thought… the Cavalier franchise likely would take a sizable hit in value if LeBron were to leave next summer. I know it’s in the NBA bylaws that no active player is permitted to have an ownership stake in a franchise (although there are loopholes… say if LBJ wanted to buy up a bunch of Quicken Loans stock, etc.), yet I wonder if there’s a scenario where LBJ has a friendly third party (one of his pal Warren Buffet’s friends, etc.) make an offer to buy a controlling interest in the Cavs as a leverage maneuver? It would… Read more »
I’m all for it.
If this is Leb’s plan, Kay isn’t going anywhere…Leb knows well that you need superstars on the roster to build franchise value…
If Kyrie told LeBron to go F himself, as it seems, why would he be kept?
(Kay not Ky — heavy sarcasm from MikeO)
Or it’s Saul Good Man!
I would probably be moved to tears if this happened. I’m over CavsDan…
the difference between relative money and money….
I think we can give CavsDan credit for spending as much as he has
I disagree. I just feel every owner should spend to improve the product. Which is also why I’ve been critical of the Dolans in the past. I don’t really care if they’re losing money, when they’re multi-billionaires. No sympathy from me.
https://twitter.com/TheRealJRSmith/status/901093857730875392
I know Michael thinks Kay Felder is the real GOAT:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ych5jlmf
This is right in Dan Gilbert’s wheel house:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ydf4fho7
Thomas, Shump and Frye for Kemba.
Make it happen.
That’s in Michael Jordan’s wheelhouse, too…I’d even throw in Kay…
933 Comments. The 1KC plateau is within sight!
https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/900790618108153857
Why not….that’s about Fox’s level of honest reporting…
State TV!
The Other Jason will be losing it:
https://twitter.com/ChrisSvec/status/900836070681710593
That would be unreal. Make it happen Uncle Dan.
You’ll need the Other Jason involved in the negotiations.
Holy barf.
If you think KI is lazy on D, wait till you see 2017 DWade!!
They would have to change the name of the arena from The Q to The Sieve…
Lol but tell me you wouldnt be glued to the tv at least?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/08/24/dont-be-fooled-again-that-huge-crowd-photo-was-not-a-trump-rally/?tid=ss_fb&utm_term=.a66f576c6751
https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__/status/900476744674816000
https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/900679141393133568
Is the IT deal the same as Teague’s where he can’t be traded till December?
If not, how about IT and Shump/Tavares/Felder/whoever for Rubio or Lou Williams?
They will problaly cut Tavares and Felder to make tuesday trade happen as they have to many on the roster. But I think we should keep IT it is hard to trade expiring contract. As for Shump we have been trying to dump him no team wants him. The thing that has value is the Brooklyn pick if we get indication Lebron is staying we can flip that before trade deadline. Lets say if the Paul George in OKC isn’t working out or Demarcus Cousins.
I understand that an expiring contract is hard to trade, that’s why I’m not asking for a higher ranked PG in return. I’m talking about trading “down” to a less efficient (offensively) PG who can help during the finals.
Cavs need to showcase Shump early in the season so Michael Jordan will bite…I know he’s almost ready to pull the trigger…
Can’t we slide Tavares and Felder into the two two-way spots? Or is that not how that works? Do you need to have a specific contract designation for that?
I think because they already have contractual obligations they cannot do it.
Not true. I don’t know what the parameters of the contract have to be or if they would have to clear waivers or not, but I know players with existing deals can get converted. Some at least.
Okay, I’ll take your word for it.
Yeah. I will say I am not sure what the reqs are: minimum only, 1 year only, not fully guaranteed would all make sense. As would some sort of waiver process.
http://img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/4a0c61e0971e1a5872739b55ecda9b80/http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n80/Dustfinger15/Sparta-2.jpg
http://s51.podbean.com/pb/8f280005a9bdc6927072f94d7d4e1d07/599fb626/data2/hotbackup/2017-08-21/731003/uploads/Saulgood1400x1400.jpg
http://az616578.vo.msecnd.net/files/2016/09/26/636105299923578088-1610436935_its%20fine.jpg
If exploiting IT is so easy why wait till the postseason? I can only assumes teams just ‘constantly put him in the pick and roll and collect their guaranteed two points” every possession?
Or is it just the Warriors who have the special sauce to do this?
Teams don’t game-plan as much during the regular season. It’s a long season, with travel and back-to-backs, so they mostly show up and run their regular stuff.
This is why. Post-season because of seeing the same time a minimum of 4 times in a row with long breaks between series is an entirely different scenario than the regular season.
http://eprints.brighton.ac.uk/6808/1.haslightboxThumbnailVersion/exploiting-it.jpg
LMAO
Hahahaha
…and if it is so easy to exploit IT, why didn’t it work until the Celtics ran into the Cavs?
The East is weak and had only one real contender last season. Against teams with their own holes, it’s easier to hide an IT. And even then the Celtics were down 0-2 to the 8 seed Bulls in the first round going to Chicago. Coulda been looking at a sweep, except Rondo got hurt.
Huffing paint… not just for Warrior fans anymore…
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/750×970/documents/0721051gold1.jpg
This thread has jumped the shark…
http://mylateralevolution.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Fonzie-vs-Shark.png
Yeah I just learned where this term actually came from. I rarely watched Happy Days, which is why I never used the term.
What is the over/under on what time this CtB thread hits 1000? The rate is picking up (in my case, helped by Modelo Especial), but I am about to go uptown and watch bands.
It seems like people don’t understand that IT is the third most valuable asset in this trade. That is what makes it a good trade, and is the reason why it can simultaneously be true that KI > IT and this trade was great.
For the immediate future we basically traded Kyrie for Crowder. Everything else included in the deal probably won’t help in the finals. So it’s a loss, and the waiving of a white flag, as the roster currently stands.
They could trade the pick for another player, but I don’t think Dan the GM will do that, and I’m not sure they could really get anyone of that will push them over the edge.
The Cavs missed out on PG and/or Chris Paul. Would have been the ideal trade(s) to be made.
Arch, maybe you should check out the league standings in production. Do you have a degree in Philosophy? You could add a lot to the old question of how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.
Kyrie for Crowder? Lol. What are you talking about?
Does Zizik help you the finals? Does IT help you in the finals? Does the Brooklyn pick help you in the finals? If you answer yes to any of these questions, I’ll disagree with you.
IT helps you in the finals. He is not Kyrie, but he still helps. He could be the best sixth man in league on Cavs, which would be a huge role in Finals. Guy who can score at elite level while LBJ rests. Hide him on D as best you can. To claim he is literally worthless is extreme.
And the Brooklyn pic might help us A LOT. I am confident they got that pick to trade it.
Dan the GM is not trading the pick. He’s holding onto it t rebuild th roster if/when LeBron leaves.
Until you can show me data that supports your claim about IT positivily impacting this club in the finals, I’ll just consider it a regular season bias.
If I had to guess, I would guess the pick was LBJ insurance, meaning they won’t deal it. DG might already know LBJ is leaving. Of course that would be the worst case scenario.
Judging this trade based solely on whether we can beat GS is just a terrible way to look at it. Sorry, but there is more to trade value than whether Cleveland can beat a super team. Come on man. Just too many sour grapes on this blog.
Member when IT scored all those points in the regular season… oh, oh and finished fifth in the MVP voting? Member?
http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server1300/1hozm2en/products/1065/images/10327/member-berries-sq__41362.1479844436.500.500.jpg
Point 3B. This trade might well make the Cavs stronger in the finals. The reason KI is worth IT + more is because KI is younger and has way more potential for the future. But as far as last year and perhaps next year, IT is better than KI. And having Crowder will be a huge plus in many ways. The Cavs might have won last year with Crowder if KI would have given upward of 70% effort. If Rose plays well and Wade materializes, things could be pretty interesting.
Have you been abusing Sam Amico’s paint chips? Kyrie in the playoffs >>>>>>>>>>>> IT in the playoffs.
Paint chips, eh? You know where I can score some?
AmicoHoops.Net
I wouldn’t be shocked to see Kyrie in the playoffs [without LeBron] < IT in the playoffs [with LeBron]
VOTE FOR PEDRO – to make all your dreams come true!
Agree with Pedro. We’ll see. Boston will get knocked out early this year. Ainge is aiming 3-4 years down the road post James/GSW era.
Based off the objective statistics and the eye test, IT being better than KY last year just isn’t true. There is nothing to support this in the playoffs. The regular season is debatable too. IT had a lower RPM than Irving last year in the regular season which at least attempts to account for defense in the regular season. Crowder could definitely help. Rose is a bum and I am not holding my breath on Wade. But there is no mistake that we are not as strong at the point position now. That is based off the vast majority of… Read more »
Point 3A: I bet 100 times in this episode of CtB someone says “but this doesn’t improve us in the finals”. When a star demands to be traded, you are lucky to get anywhere near 100 cents on the dollar. So all this whining is because KA didn’t get $1.25 and make the Cavs instantly better than before. That is asking a lot.
Right and Irving had no leverage, and 2 years remaining on his deal. I don’t buy the theory he was going to sit out games. That would be bad for his brand, which he cherishes.
Give it up Arch. No one is buying that it would be smart to have a showdown with KI. A lot of us would like to have a good year and hope that LeBron decides to stay.
The way I see it, if we win or come pretty close to winning, LeBron probably stays. If we fall short, LeBron bolts. A showdown with Kyrie doesn’t have anything to do with LeBron’s impending free agency next July.
Get real! LeBron would like an ugly training camp holdout? Where do you get this stuff?
Yes LeBron will resign with the Cavs as long as training camp replicates an episode of “Friends.”
Would LeBron like a Kyrie training camp drama? No. Could he deal with it? Of course. He’s been in the spotlight for 15-plus years and has seen and dealt with almost everything.
It’s all moot how but I certainly would’ve liked more picks or a shot at Tatum or Brown. Even some second rounders would’ve been nice. Think they could’ve held a out for a couple weeks.
Or bring in a 3rd team to get a more suitable PG.
Maybe when he fails the physical
.
????????
Point 2: The CtB experts all state the fact that IT will be unplayable in the finals. I disagree. It will be a challenge figuring out how to make it work, but far from impossible. All you have to do is score more points than the other team, not shut them down. I was not a fan of IT, but was aware that he topped the NBA in various categories. I don’t think the Dubs have IT Kryptonite.
The Dubs (and not just them) would put IT in pick and rolls constantly, just as everyone (including the Cavs) does constantly in the playoffs. There is no magic antidote to this.
It doesn’t matter. The team with more points wins the game. If IT is producing more points than he is giving up, guess what?
He’s in a gym alone?
Bwah hahaaaa!
Great analysis!
He has to improve the offense by 20 points per 100 possessions to offset how he hurts the defense.
The Celtics were much better against the Dubs without IT. Unless IT suddenly grows 6 inches, the Dubs will take him out of the game, just like the Cavs have done.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-cavs-thread-the-needle-with-kyrie-megadeal/?addata=espn:nba:index
“A troubling omen: The Warriors feasted on Thomas’s lack of defense the past three seasons, scoring 108.6 points per 100 plays against the Celtics with Thomas on the court. For context, they only managed 87.2 points per 100 plays against Boston with Thomas on the bench, according to ESPN Stats & Information Group
You literally posted this earlier in the thread. Cols gets posts deleted for less. We get it.
Read raoul post, he might have not seen it.
Just curious, what was GSW ORtg with Kyrie on the court in the finals?
Alsi, IIRC, their numbers plummet with Crowder on court.
It would be bad in reg season but it is mute point since Kyrie won a championship against dubs.
Point 1: KI a quitter? Recall seven years ago that LeBron pretty much quit with about 60 seconds to go and down about nine in the last game of the LeBron 1 era. People rightly howled for years about that. Now consider the last game this year. (Correct the details) I think the Cavs were down about 3 or 4 with maybe 40 seconds; by no means out of reach. The ball gets passed in to KI. Everyone in the world knows you want to shoot with more than 24 on the clock. KI casually dribbles up the floor (the… Read more »
Who are you arguing with? As for Kyrie, I’m 100% with you in his horrible end to the season.
Yes Kyrie quit and was noodling around with “Clay.” Send him to kangaroo court!
You are good with quitting with the season on the line? A fanboy indeed.
No I don’t see any evidence that he “quit.”
Also I liked Kyrie, but he was never my favorite Cavalier. I was fine with trading him. As long as the return was taller than a middle schooler.
According to the play by play listing of Game 5 on Basketball Reference, the Cavs were down 129-115 with 42 seconds to play. They were down by double digits most of the last six minutes of the game.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/201706120GSW.html
We don’t deal in facts here!
OK, which game am I talking about? That is how one game ended.
Game 3 was the only game close enough to match the scenario you described.
Yes I was thinking of game three.
Game 3
It was Game 3, and people didn’t jump on Kyrie for quitting because we jumped on him for poor decision making and tunnel vision like we’d seen a million times before.
He almost blew Game 7 in 2016 on the possession after The Shot with a reckless 1 on 5 fast break that only through dumb luck avoided being a turnover.
This was always one of the things that made Kyrie exasperating: such a talent, but such a blockhead at times.
I agree with that. I talk about that 1 on 5 fast break all the time. LeBron passed it to him so quickly after he got the rebound on Steph’s brick. It was close enough that he thought the Dubs might foul.
“What was Kyrie Irving doing in transition?” – Jeff Van Gundy
Would IT for Melo be something that interests you guys. Frye and Shump as filler.
Makes us worse vs 28 teams, might make us better vs the Warriors. But most importantly Lebrons friend
Get off drugs.
New York wouldn’t want a 28 year old that is about the same level as 33 year old Melo? I don’t think its crazy talk. Unlikely but not out of the question
Melo has stated he will not waive his no trade clause for anywhere but Houston. Plus I’m not sure the Knicks want IT that badly that they would trade Melo. I’d do it though, but then you’d need a starting PG.
My guess is that he didn’t want to come because he wouldn’t have started with Irving here. But with Irving gone and Melo in the fold maybe he does.
1) Lebron
2) JR
3) Melo
4) Love
5) TT
You couldn’t play that group long because of the defense but you slide Crowder in for Melo early and then let Melo run the second unit… Just spit ballin here but it could work.
They would have just brought TT of the bench. I don’t know what goes on in Melo’s head, but it’s been reported he only wants Houston.
The Sam Amico audience would trade everyone on the team, Sans LeBron for Melo because they eat paint chips.
Paint chips would start to explain Amico…
???
To everyone
What amazing response to this post: almost well over 800 comments. I know you all don’t agree with everything we write or say, and we’d never want you to. But the the engagement, the passion, and the intelligence you all bring makes this place what it is. Thank you so much.
I think against every team in the league besides GSW, Cavs improved with this trade.
Against GSW, they got worse.
Great analysis (not sarcasm)
KLUBER SGOULD HAVE AT LEAST 4 MORE WINS IF THEY WOULD HAVE PROVIDED ANY SUPPORT —–THE GUY IS ” LIGHTS OUT “
Yep, best in the AL if you take into how good he is in the postseason.
Do you think this Cavs squad as constructed is good enough to get TO the Finals? If they face any other team besides for the Warriors, what chances are you giving the Cavs? I agree with Nate, Ben, and EG that the Cavs have zero shot against the Warriors BUT I’m not as down on as IT4 for the other rounds of the playoffs (so long as he is healthy). Yes, his numbers have dropped in the last 3 playoffs but Thomas has shown that he can be the main guy on a team that gets to the ECF. I… Read more »
Of course, highly doubtful Thomas would want to be relegated to 6th man in his contract year…
These are all legitimate concerns: Health, contract year, defense, how he will cope with reduced role, over dribbling etc.. After Isaiah has been traded from kings, here is what Cousins has to say. “…It’s not being overdribbled by anybody on the floor”.” Celts were able to get maximum out of Isaiah paring with him Avery and four plus defenders on floor. Not sure if Cavs have four plus defenders in whole team. It is still a good trade, IMO, because * NBA’s best bargain contract in Crowder who I think will have break out year without putting on eye popping… Read more »
They will definitely get to the finals. Boston could win a couple games if Stevens unlocks Irvings potential. I don’t think they have enough though to beat the cavs still. However, I think unless another move is made, the cavs are going to have serious problems with any team that comes out of the west. I think the 6th man role is something that seriously has to be considered for Thomas in the playoffs, although that would probably mean playing Rose more….so, not the ideal solution.
The bottom of the Indians order just put a four spot on Chris Sale in the second. Too bad Kluber is not pitching.
It’s the second time this month the Indians have scored 7 earned runs against Sale. His high against anyone else all season is 5 (once).
If Kluber beats out Sale for the Cy Young, he may owe it to the Indians’ bats in these two games.
Yep the Indians own Sale. Not a fan of Sale after his jersey slashing tantrum in Chicago. Seems like a real head case.
I plagiarised this in a tweet.
https://twitter.com/MLBastian/status/900874795025354756
MOST TRADES ARE MADE WITH THE AGREEMENT / CONTRACTUAL THAT ALL PLAYERS INVOLVED ARE HEALTHY/ PASS AN EXAMINATION—–WHAT HAPPPENS IF IT’S EXAM SHOWS SOMETHING PEMAMENTLY DISABLING—-IS THE TRADE VOID—IS KYRIE A CAV AGAIN —-DO WE START ALL OVER WITH THE DRAMA —IF SO– WERE IS KY’S MENTAL STATE / EMOTIONS AT AND ALSO THE ENTIRE ORGANIZATIONS / INCLUDING ALL OF US HERE AT CTB
My bet is they’d replace him with Marcus smart and a draft pick.
Tatum or cancel the deal…
I’d take Jaylen Brown, just for the Celtic fanboy outrage…that would be delicious…
I’m not convinced Jaylen Brown is particularly good at anything.
I could see him turning into a LeBron heel like Stanley Johnson.
Wow, Spurs signed Ginobli to a 2 year deal, which would make him 42 years old by the time that deal ended, unless he retires after this year.
He’s still usable and I would imagine an incredible asset in the locker room mentoring the young guys.
Yup.. and like Nate said, there’s probably no NBA org better at managing minutes/health than they are.
I meant from a financial standpoint, but your point is also true.
This is also why guys take less to play for San Antonio. cause they take care of you into your twilight
Anyone know when the cavs doctors are scheduled to examine IT’s hip?
If I were a smart owner/GM like MICHAEL JORDAN, I’d be trying to get Shumpert from the Cavs…
He and Rich cho are freaking geniuses.
I’m really worried they’re going to fleece the Cavs out of Shumpert.
Agree with Nate. That is the kind of worry I like.
I know another smart owner his name rhymes with Games Zolan! He’d probably could fool the Cavs into stealing Shump for the Zinger and Hernangomez.
In LeBron’s tweets from earlier today he used the words “coward” and “traitor” when describing fan behavior. Of course these were the words used in Dans Comic Sans letter.
To be fair burning jerseys is a little extreme. For instance, I hate Draymond’s actions on the court and he seems to be a bit of a jerk, but lots of people can seem to be superficially unpleasant especially if you don’t know them personally or have never met them in real life. However, they don’t deserve hate. And some of Gilbert’s actions could be seen as extreme and in the same vein as burning jerseys, though I do admit I have, perhaps hypocritically, less tolerance for the behavior of billionaires then I do for athletes or everyday people. If… Read more »
+1
Some here especially one poster can use this as daily reminder “Hating athletes or anyone for that matter, unless they truly are awful human beings off the court, as people is a little crazy.”
+1 on this. I really don’t get why people love Kyrie & think IT is a poor fit. One guy stinks on D but led the league in clutch shooting %, points per possession in isolation, & was #2 in 4th quarter scoring. The other guy is Kyrie Irving.
There is nothing close being a traitor in always sopprting your team. Some take it to far. But it is the opposite of treason = loyalty.
Just to be clear, LeBron didn’t say that about the fans, he quoted fans (cough cough Dan Gilbert) as the ones who have used those specific terms.
Listening to Jason Lloyd on 92.3, and he’s not a fan of the trade because of IT. He mentioned similar takes about IT, as in the pod and additionally notes how Lue likes to switch on PnR but you can’t do that with a 5’9 PG.
Jason is like a bunch of people here, fixated on everything about the trade that is not the best trade in history. He ought to know better. You have to look at the entire picture. For example, the locker room aspects of replacing an ultra talented star who is a lazy whiner with an overachiever who goes all out to win all the time.
Or he and we have a different opinion on the matter, which we’ve already highlighted Cols 2.0!
Preach it Raoul. Crowder & IT both give this team some hustle & fire on the court, which we need. And they’ll help in the locker room. Getting Irving out will also help. Osman & Zizic are supposed to be high energy guys who are combative types. I get all the IT concerns. But dude dropped 33 the day after his sister died & was #2 (or 1) in the league in 4th quarter scoring and was the most efficient in the clutch last year. With less help than he has now. I am not worried about IT’s offensse. FWIW,… Read more »
That Kool-Aide tastes pretty good huh????
WATCHED SOME MORE HIGHLIGHTS OF ZIZIC ( WATCHED SOME THE NIGHT OF THE TRADE ) AM MORE IMPRESSED—-“ANTE ” IN FOR ZIZIC
Me too. It would be phenomenal if he turned into a solid TT backup. He looks like he has better moves and can handle the ball. I’m pumped.
Really, anything’s probably better than Edy Taveres.
This podcast is depressing, we got a haul for Kyrie and it seems in the pod they are upset. If they can name a trade that was better a legitimate trade. The trade worked now and in the future. Isiah basically does what Kyrie does, and Crowder is a great defender on a good contract. Ante Zizic can eat up some backup big man minutes. brooklyns pick to top it off great trade.
Melo to the Nuggets, Pierce/KG to the Nets, Vlade Divac for Kobe Bryant to name a few…
Our lament is due to the fact that the Cavs are no longer competing for a championship with Isaiah. He does not do what Kyrie does as we iterated in the podcast. In the playoffs, Kyrie can rise to the level of a competent defender while Thomas will never, ever, be able to due to his height. Yes, Crowder is on a good contract, yes the pick could be good. But Neither Ben, EG, or Nate liked it.
I have to say, I think you guys are out of your minds on the Kyrie trade. Plum crazy. We had no shot to beat GSW as constructed unless Kyrie decided he wanted to use those handles to turn into Steve Nash. He doesn’t. The Cavs were awful with Ky on the court & James sitting. We were 24-7 in the last two years when Bron & Love played & Kyrie sat. That is 60 win pace. We got 85% of Kyrie with Thomas + Crowder + less of RJ, Shump, & Green. That is a win. Plus more rest… Read more »
As we said multiple times in the podcast, the playoffs are a different beast. We don’t care about win pace. Sure that will be nice but Kyrie at his best is transcendent sometimes even on defense. Isaiah at his best is a playoff wash and that is if his offense is otherworldly. Basically the premise is that there is a chance to win a ship (and yes, even beat GS) with Kyrie as the starting point guard. There’s no chance with Isaiah. None. Isaiah probably can’t play more that 15 a night against a good playoff team. Which means the… Read more »
You smart guys are collectively forgetting that the GSW will also have to play D. How much worse is the combo of Crowder and Thomas than Irving and Shumpert?
The problem is Thomas is almost literally unplayable against the Warriors. The Celtics got away with it because they had strong defenders on the court to compensate, especially guards. The Cavs as currently composed cannot do that.
Where did you hear that? How many times has IT played the Warriors with LeBron on his team?
You mean one of the best defensive teams in the NBA?
Fair enough. I still think you guys are being too much fanboys on this one. And way too irrational on the IT hate. And forgetting that James is the PG on this team. And you are way too dismissive of the opinion of virtually every smart hoops person who doesn’t work for this blog who thinks this was a great trade. Many of whom were watching & playing hoops before most of you guys were born. Wanna make it interesting? Over under is Cavs making it to the finals & taking 1 game. I’ll take the over. Wager void if… Read more »
Ok. And void if Thomas is traded? I’d never bet money but I’d do a dare or something for charity.
The loser has to drink actual Kool Aid!!! I have a group of friends who are mostly from around Martin’s Ferry, and are mostly Steelers fans. We would get a big gang to watch every time the Browns played the Steelers. Two guys who were roommates in college have a long standing “Spam Sandwich” bet.: after the game, the guy who’s team lost has to eat an entire can of raw Spam on white bread. Much hilarity ensues!
Right there you are wrong: The current Cavs have a much better chance of winning it than the last year group. Especially if Wade joins, which appears fairly likely. You are confusing the fact that KI has vastly more POTENTIAL than IT with the fact that IT plays better than KI. Josh Gordan has the potential to be the best receiver in the NFL and still might live up to it. But don’t hold your breath.
I think you’ve exceeded your limit for today Raoul…
http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/04-011.jpg
After the season we can decide who was on Kool Aid!
I just don’t think the guys can’t see this one with their usual clarity. Too much attachment to Irving due to that 3 game stretch + the shot. Understandable.
I am ready for camp to start, and we will start to see how things go. I think the Cavs are better than at this point a year ago. Crowder would have been a huge plus last year.
We could have a Big 5 with Zizik and Osman….
Is the sarcasm missing here I hope?
I’ll take the latter two.
Who can I compare him to in the NBA?
If you’re looking for players who played at a similar level to him prior to the NBA, Nikola Pekovic, Nikola Jokic and Jusuf Nurkic all played in the Adriatic League as big men before making it to the NBA.
https://www.sbnation.com/2017/8/22/16187168/kyrie-irving-isaiah-thomas-ante-zizic-trade
Ante Zizic strengths and weaknesses: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Ante-Zizic-68722/videos/
James is right on the narrow question of burning Thomas’ jersey. It is stupid. HE GOT TRADED! Plus after scoring 33 after his sister died? Playing at all. Boston fans are entitled brats.
Burning jerseys is stupid no matter the reason.
Cavaliers’ all-time roster on NBA 2K18 revealed
https://www.fearthesword.com/2017/8/24/16198816/cavaliers-all-time-roster-nba-2k18-revealed
It is way too early to judge this trade. The wheeling and dealing of the Cavs is far from over, it looks like. If we move IT or Crowder and the pick for a superstar or Shump and Crowder for a star or something like that, it will change the way we look at this trade. Could the Cavs FO have waited for better offers? Maybe. Could the wait, along with childish behaviour or an injury (remember Kyrie is very injury prone), have lowered the leverage of the Cavs in an Irving trade? That is more probable IMO. We will… Read more »
Continuing from above
On top of that, he is very injury prone.
In conclusion, I don’t have the slightest problem with the deal.
Good take. What do you think of Zizic?
To be honest, I didn’t watch a whole lot of Darussafaka this season, like 2 or 3 full games with the Greek teams and I didn’t notice him that much other than he was good for such a young player. My guess is as good as yours.
Thanks…I have only watched a few clips, and read some analysis…doesn’t appear to be very skilled, but can be a good rebounder and shot blocker, perhaps…
To be honest if I have to choose between Crowder and Shump I would choose Crowder.
LBJ on a twitter rant right now about IT and Heyward right now…. defending them. Can’t disagree at the end of the day.
LeBron more than anyone I’ve seen wants to have his cake and eat it too. Wants David Blatt gone, wants to make sure the media “gets it out there” that he had nothing to do with it. Wants the Cavs to be all-in on spending all the time but wants maximum flexibility for himself but also wants optimal team construction so he can win titles. Wants to save his energy by getting into bad habits but claims he wants to play more minutes and blames everyone else for defensive breakdowns. Wants to talk about how important fan loyalty is and… Read more »
Nice take, Tom. I am with you on this.
Honestly, the same unbridled and idiotic rage that fuels someone to burn a jersey (and in the case of IT it’s particularly idiotic) is the same unbridled and idiotic rage that has me losing my voice screaming at Iman Shumpert or nearly fainting watching a bunch of people playing a game that actually has zero effect on my life other than the ones I grant it. And it is this powerful force of evolution meant for survival against competing groups or warring countries that we’ve repurposed for a fun and exhilarating experience and a way to bond with others that…ahem…BANKROLLS… Read more »
Yeah, can’t disagree with any of this, Tom.
Yup for sure… I guess for me personally, I’m caring less and less as I get older. I think the detachment helps me enjoy more ironically, and being from Ohio and seeing the Browns leave, LBJ leave, living in Cincinnati with a crappy owner in Mike Brown, it’s just ingrained the idea it’s just business and entertainment… that’s really the only value to me.
When I was younger, I thought LBJ leaving was the ultimate betrayal. As I get older, I totally get it now… inept front office… gotta do what’s best for you.
LeBron did what Kevin Durant did. He was close a few times, he failed, he didn’t believe he was responsible, wanted an easier path to a title. Cavs were good enough to make the finals (and win) in ’09 and ’10. In ’09 they ran into a flukey buzz saw (it happens). In ’10 LeBron choked.
“he didn’t believe he was responsible”… that might be true, but no way to prove that… and not sure delving into psycho-analysis about people we have no personal relationship with. It’s fun to do that sometimes… but I’m not sure it makes it true or correct.
He surely choked in ’11. Or perhaps shrank is the better description. Still, even the great ones have bumpy moments. Lakers were refering to Magic as Tragic Johnson at one point.
Close but not quite. LeBron joining the Celtics or Lakers is the equivalent.
Yeah I don’t need professional athletes telling fans how they should feel.
Good post Tom. Preach, brother. Let me add to the irony of James’ approach. He wants maximum flexibility to bolt to hold the franchise to the fire for win now moves. This has two effects. One, all the future assets get purged & the roster gets old & he has a shorter window & has to flee (the Cavs youngest rotation player is TT who turns 27 this season). Two, he creates instability at the team he plays for. Making it harder for them to plan, retain, and recruit players. Thus making it harder to win titles.
I’m excited to watch Zizik and Osman. I think both played for Blatt.
Dream ceilings for this two: Osman turns into Ginobli, and Zizik turns into Jokic.
Pretty bold. I’ll settle for one Hall of Famer and one bust.
Me too. Or even just and All-Star caliber player.
Hell… I think if both are key bench players, that’s a win IMO.
That is a real opium dream…
Oh yeah!!!! ????
Cedi didn’t. Only Zizic did.
Blatt called him “Baby Shaq”
According to Steve Kyler, it sounded like the Cavs didn’t even want Crowder, and only needed him to make the math work:
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-am-kyrie-the-brooklyn-pick-and-lebron/amp/
If true, really dumb. Maybe they thought they were set at wing D with Shump…
Right. Not only is Crowder on a favorable contract, but he’s probably the best player coming over that can help today.
Have a hard time buying the Cavs didn’t want Crowder given his stats, position played and great contract.
Agreed
I’ll be honest. I’m pretty much out on Steve Kyler. One of my least favorite nba pundits.
Really… I thought you liked him. What changed?
I believe this was a fair trade, even though IT is not a good defender is not like Kyrie was great defensively. IT can playmake really well and he averaged 29ppg per playing with a bunch of scrubs so he should do well playing with LBJ and Co.
Also maybe Crawder can turn into the wing defender the Cavs need to give Lebron some needed rest on that end.
To me both teams got a fair deal.
Crowder really helps LeBron and by extension the Cavs in that hopefully they can rest him serious minutes in the regular season now. Even though he might be unplayable for a lot of the playoffs IT will probably help James rest indirectly in the regular season. It’s fine. They might have done better. But if LBJ is hyped about IT he may have pushed for it and then their hands would have been tied.
Probably because you said the same thing again about ten times. I applaud the deletions. Thanks CtB.
Three predictions:
–Once healthy, Thomas will have a very good regular season.
–Cols, after telling us for the past three years that the regular season doesn’t matter, will claim vindication on the trade before Thanksgiving.
–Thomas will struggle in the playoffs and fade into the background. Falling out of Lue’s shortened playoff rotation is not beyond the realm of possibility.
Probably accurate.
Considering Lue played Shump during the finals, I would say he will ride Thomas for 30+ minutes even if he knew he had a broken hip.
I think in evaluating this trade, most people are (consciously or unconsciously) looking at regular-season IT, because he hasn’t had much playoff experience. This year might have been his first year out of the first round.
But we aren’t going to get regular-season IT in the playoffs. His playoff offense may be better here, because it won’t be him against the world. But his defense may turn him into a bench player.
The main problem with this trade is Thomas and his inability to defend. In the playoffs, teams will exploit that ruthlessly, especially once you get to the second round and beyond.
Does anyone have a theory for how the Cavs can neutralize that weakness?
Play extremely smart help defense and order some 6 inch special platform sneakers from NIKE.
That would open up some new marketing possibilities.
Trade the pick for a rim protector.
The Cavs have been going all-in on offense for a while now. IT wasn’t the start of it
Hell, the NBA has been going all in on offense for awhile now LOL.
Although the warriors and Spurs are basically two of the best defensive teams in the league.
Great coaching plus great effort = great defense.
Honestly, not impressed by Lue so far… he was supposed to be the defensive architect for Doc Rivers.
To be fair, he hasn’t exactly had the greatest defensive personnel. Shump was fools gold. Smith wasn’t really know as a decent defender until recently and he still makes dumb mistakes. Kyrie was just ok during the playoffs even when he was engaged. TT isn’t a rim protector. The old guys are just too slow. LBJ was really the only plus defender on the wing during the playoffs.
Also, the Warriors and Spurs being great defenses really doesn’t invalid my point (or by extension, Tom’s point). The game of basketball will always be offensive-driven… rules change have super-charged this focus. Cavs just getting on board IMO.
But IT is at a whole ‘nother (lower) level. Unless they only expect him to be a role player off the bench.
Agreed. His DRPM is atrocious.
I don’t think he’s going to be a role player. I think there are going to try to outscore everyone.
20 minutes a night against bench units should be his playoff max.
I THINK ALSO WE PURSUE SIGNING “ENCHILADA ” WHICH MAKES SHUMP EVEN MORE TRADEABLE
YESSSSSSSS!
THAT IS MY (CAVS ALSO ) HOPE ALSO ARCH—-MAYBE WE GOT A DIAMOND IN THE ROUGH—QUALITY BACK UP POST
Zizic looks like he may have some potential. Here’s hoping he’s the next Jokic: http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine
He is, literally, the next Big Z. At minimum that is a win. ZZZZZZZ!
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2729269-jaylen-brown-says-celtics-fans-burning-isaiah-thomas-jersey-is-pathetic?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=programming-national
PRAYERS GO OUT TO NEWEST CAVS JAE CROWDER—IN LOSING HIS MOTHER TO CANCER—-WE ARE ALL FAMILY HERE JAE —” ALL FOR 1—1 FOR ALL “
Sending positive vibes to @CJC9BOSS and his family/friends.
Nice gesture Nomad.
Amen, Nomad. Very sad to hear about Crowder’s mother.
Trade exception side issues: https://kingjamesgospel.com/2017/08/24/cleveland-cavaliers-trade-exception-deal-boston/
AGREE WITH MOST OF THE BLOGGERS ON POSSIBLY WAITING —-BUT WHAT HAPPENS IF KY’S NUMBERS DROP OFF / ATTITUDE WORSENS / OR WORSE HE HAS A SERIOUS INJURY ——THEN WE PROBABLY GET FAR LESS—-KNOW IT IS A GAMBLE —BUT JUST SAYING
For anyone here saying how terrible this trade was, what exactly would you had done or asked for? Now put yourself on the other side of the equation. So you are Altman and you call NY for Porz, if you are NY’s GM, why would you do the trade? You got Porz for three more years at less than $7mill per. He can be an all time great and you have no reason to win now since you have no chance against LeBron or the Celtics(before the trade). So you bring Kyrie, lose Porz, still lose 40 games and Melo… Read more »
Instead of a draft pick you push for Tatum or Brown. Young talent that we have seen in college, summer league, or as a rookie already. If the lottery had already happened and we knew it was a top 3 pick in a stacked class that would be one thing. As of right now it is an ok return, not great. If you can’t get young players than you let Kyrie rot for a few months until he gets sick of not collecting a paycheck. Giving in is not the answer on trades. Ask Danny Ainge. In reality players with… Read more »
You could call his bluff but the Cavs are in win now mode, so you are not going to let your start pg sit out and make the situation worst by having other GM’s see what a hardheaded idiot he is, and lose games on top. For whatever the reason he doesn’t like LeBron, that’s quite obvious. He doesn’t want to help LeBron win another ring. He’s a multi-millionaire and could(I would imagine) afford to sit out a year if he wanted to. Would he? Who knows. But given the past two months, I think he’s that stupid to actually… Read more »
Yes. This. If he sits out, team sucks, KI’s value plummets, LBJ starts chirping in media, and then you have to make a panic trade for 20 cents on dollar.
You don’t have to make a panic trade. He’s under contract for TWO YEARS. Is he going to sit out two years?
Irving was unhappy for at least the past two years, which resulted in two Finals trips and one championship. If they don’t trade him, the Cavs might have been like the 1977-78 Yankees, with Nettles, Munson and Jackson fighting in the clubhouse but winning on the field.
But the differences are that during the last two years we didn’t hear anything from Kyrie’s camp nor anyone else regarding his resentment.
This year, it appears he’s had enough and won’t be going along for the ride anymore. Maybe his dislike for LeBron/role has gotten to the point that he doesn’t care (that’s obvious) about what anyone thinks and is done with it all.
I truly think he’s such an egocentric, hard headed idiot that he would sit out and not show up to training camp. Then what?
Wait him out, and wait for a better offer. Kyrie has his brand and endorsements to worry about — how much damage would he be willing to do to his reputation?
You have no chance of keeping LBJ if you keep Kyrie. I’d rather keep LBJ than Kyrie when push comes to shove, I don’t think it’s even a debate.
You’re right, it’s not a debate. But LeBron, and a team with LeBron, can handle the drama while waiting for a better offer.
And as some pointed out… that’s possibly an unbearable risk. Kyrie does get major injuries (wrist, knee). Also if Kyrie holds out, his value is not going to increase.
Why not push for Kevin Durant? Or, how about Superman?
You call his bluff always? On a guy who barely tried last year? At best this results in a more disgruntled KI, at worst he calls YOUR bluff and sits out. This is called Lose Lose.
Amen, Raoul. The risk of Kyrie sitting out camp is legitimate and ruins our trade value. I don’t understand what people expected to get for Kyrie. Once we move the BKLN pick for another piece, we will have IT, Crowder, another very good NBA player, and a young Center. It’s a great haul.
Fine he sits out. Are you saying demanding for Tatum or Brown instead of a unknown draft pick is the equivalent to going after Durant? I mean let’s not exaggerate that much. I don’t see how holding fast for one of the younger guys is unreasonable.
You think Altman didn’t ask for more? Maybe he left a message “We will take IT. Throw in something else for a kicker”? Has it occurred to you that maybe Boston said “No”?
It has occurred to me. However, there is a reason why Ainge generally has a track record of coming out on top during trades. I think everyone has caved before he has. I really think he wanted Irving, a lot. Do you think he would rather go into the season possibly without IT being able to play and subsequently fall way down in the standings or give up a little more to get the guy he clearly sees as the future? I don’t know. The cavs might not know. However, if Boston doesn’t have IT for a decent portion of… Read more »
The increasingly desperate attempts to bad rap the trade are easy to understand. You have been constructing an alternate history featuring Gilbert as the worst owner since Nero and Altman as a disaster. Now that Altman appears to have finessed one of the hardest tasks for GM in any sport (getting value for a disgruntled star), your fantasy theory goes down the drain.
There is no need to ‘rap the trade’…it will rap iteself if/ when the Cavs play the Warriors. I have seen more desperation from people trying to convince themselves the Cavs ‘won’ this trade. They only win it if they keep the pick and it turns into a star down the line.
I didn’t say he was the worst owner. The trade is fine. They probably could have done better. I don’t think Gilbert is great at running the organization and I won’t give him much credit for opening the pocketbook to please one guy when that guy basically doubles or triple the value of a franchise. Not everyone has to think that this trade was the greatest they could do. We don’t all have to buy what they are selling. If James wanted it done, then they had to do it. If not, I think they jumped the gun. I don’t… Read more »
I might have mixed you up with another CtB’er who has been constructing an alternate universe with Gilbert as the devil for several days.
I mean, I was incensed at the initial reported framework prior to the pick. That would have been a disaster. I make no secret that I don’t think Gilbert manages the team well, mostly based off his reactionary track record, his hirings of guys like Mike Brown and Chris Grant, and the moves the cavs made this summer prior to this trade. I am not sure anyone can deny that Green, Calderon, and Rose are terrible signings. I was not happy about the trade with the pick initially. Now I am ambivalent. It could turn out well. It could turn… Read more »
For the record, regardless of one’s attitude to the trade, I’m disturbed by the developing narrative that Kyrie “told the world” he didn’t want to be here. While his timing could have been better, dude couldn’t have been more by the book IMHO.
How could anyone question wether he wanted to be here or not? Maybe he ONLY told Dan behind closed doors but when he had the chance to quiet the rumors he decided to serenade his Instagram followers on his was back from China. How is that not telling anyone who cares that he didn’t want to be here?
I agree that the Cavs should have waited until the trade deadline to see if a better deal materialized. By then, an accurate status of IT’s hip injury would certainly be known. Also, the Bucks offer of Middleton (know he had a serious injury), Brogden and their #1 pick is a very close second to the trade made. Nevertheless, I wish the Cavs had waited as the Boston trade probably would have always been there given Ainge’s man crush on Irving. And I join the chorus that IT probably isn’t on the floor during crunch time against the Warriors. I… Read more »
Question is, was Kyrie really going to not show up to training camp as the rumors has said?
I don’t know what the ramifications would had been but I would imagine a 25yr old multi-millionaire could be extremely hard headed.
That is what he told Lue.
Yes. And if he sits out camp, our leverage plummets. I get why holding onto him longer MAY have been better, but there was massive risk with that strategy.
Yup… I think it would’ve been a risk with almost no upside.
Remember the Cavs did not wait to get a better deal on Wiggins for Love because of the theory that it is hard and disruptive to try to integrate a major player any time after the start of camp? That is a consideration.
Another good thing about the trade is that we have 2 first round picks now. With our 2019 out the door, we needed 2 to be able to trade 1. Dealing our pick could also net us some help at the deadline or help move Shump.
PG: Thomas, Rose, Calderon, Felder.
SG/SF: JR, Korver, Shump, Osman
SF/PF: James, Crowder, RJ, Green
PF/C: Love, Thompson, Frye
C: Zizic, Tavares
Nets are tertible. I laugh at people who think adding Crabbe, Russell, and Carroll is going to win many games. Better than the Hawks? Please. That pick is top 5.
Sounds like the pick is overrated in a shitty draft class:
https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/900332694147616768
Which is why I thought the Cavs got hosed. Danny Ainge must have all the sucker GMs on speed dial, with the Cavs in the top 5 behind Brooklyn.
Vegas Over unders
Nets 22.5
Suns 26
Bulls 28
Pacers 31.5
Lakers 32.5
Knicks 32.5
Hawks 33.5
Mavs 34.5
Magic 34.5
Also the top of the draft looks awesome. Which is all that matters
https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/8/15/16147900/2018-nba-draft-marvin-bagley-iii-luka-doncic-michael-porter-deandre-ayton
Bud is literally one of the best coaches in the NBA. He has Schroeder who is supposedly a top 15 PG. They have Dedmon and Bazemore. Thats alot more talent than Crabbe and Russell.
Orlando has to actual good players and Fourier who at one point seemed good.
Top end of the draft class looks good (on paper), but if the pick turns into 5 or worse, not so valuable.
I don’t understand why all of sudden people are irrationally negative about this pick. It is strange. The Bulls and Pacers were willing to trade PG13 and Butler for the pick and the Celtics valued it so much they KEPT it instead of taking PG13 and/or Butler. And the Cavs just traded Irving for the pick. How much more proof do we need that the GM’s in the league think it is VERY LIKELY to be a very high pick? Why do you give more weight to some random tweet that is overly optimistic about the Nets than, you know,… Read more »
And look how stupid the bulls and pacers were. There moves were the signs of awful, weak front offices. Do not use those franchise decisions as examples of sound leadership.
Their
I am not using them as examples of sound leadership. I am using them as examples that NBA GMs value the pick the Cavs have. Why are you working so hard to prove that the pick is not valued by NBA GMs? I don’t understand it. Maybe you personally believe it shouldn’t be valued? If so, that is fine. But what matters for the Cavs is whether NBA GMs value it. That is demonstrably true, and it is GOOD for the Cavs, your favorite team.
It has value. I never ever said it doesn’t. It is the only thing that makes the deal ok, something I have repeatedly said. It does not have as much value as a top end 2nd year player or rookie we have seen play in college and summer league. However demanding player like that in return instead of a pick that is not guaranteed to be a top pick is not unreasonable. Ainge really really wanted Irving. That much is clear. This trade is just fine. Not terrible, not the greatest trade ever in bball.