Recap – Bulls: Eleventy Billion, Cavs: A real (much smaller) number
2013-01-07Tonight was a bad night for TV. The Bachelor is back, much to the horror of husbands nationwide – Notre Dame reinforced the nauseating SEC domination narrative, and the Cavs got blown off the court by the Bulls minus Derrick Rose. And knowing this Cavs team, if Rose had played it probably would have been a close game until the Cavs blew the last 2 to 6 minutes. The recap’s going to be a little different tonight. Feel free to love or hate the format as it probably won’t continue in this matter either way. Colin, Dani, and I were live-emailing each other during the game posting our thoughts. They are posted with whatever context is needed for the game. To give the voices an identity I’ll put D, C, T. Necessary context will be in italics.
<- 1st Quarter ->
D – The warm feelings are coming on early for me tonight. Kyrie seems to be playing more methodically, perhaps looking to repent for his turnover-fest last night. Tristan had an ugly turnover, but he also had a powerful drive to get an easy layup against Boozer, and Tyler Zeller had one HELL of a block! We’ve got a 13-9 lead, and I couldn’t be happier. Actually, I could- a win and Kyrie’s third-straight 30-point game would do it. Kyrie Irving finished the 1st quarter with a healthy 9 points and 4 assists. The Cavs led by 8 after a very solid all around effort from the starters. The 3s were falling early too (a season-long trend).
T – CJ Miles continues his strong 1st quarters. 2 of 4 from 3. Nice balanced scoring from the Cavs. Keeping with the laws of KyrieISOball the Cavs wind down the clock and despite a double team they get no open look for anyone as Kyrie forces as airball. This play was more egregious hero ball than most because the Bulls actually doubled Kyrie on the drive, not just once he got in the paint. He still didn’t look for a teammate. Fortunately, the Cavs intercepted the outlet pass off the airball and CJ Miles almost canned a 30 foot three at the 1st quarter buzzer.
C – C.J. Miles makes no sense. It’s a wonder he holds together at a molecular level. He should open a dry-cleaning joint where half the time they return your clothes brighter and cleaner than ever and the other times they just draw dinosaurs all over them with permanent markers. I think I hate him.
<- 2nd Quarter ->
C – Tristan Thompson has decided, against maybe the best defensive post pairing in the league (Noah and Gibson), to grab every offensive rebound he can get his hands on and finish it with finesse. Am I happy right now? Is this what joy feels like? Thompson had a nice first half. He finished with 12 points including 100% of his free throws and as Colin alluded to, he had 7 rebounds in the first half including 4 offensive boards. Unfortunately all the Cavs success dried up quickly in the 2nd half. TT finished with a productive 14 and 8 in 32 minutes on 50% shooting.
D – Tristan with another fantastic move! Get that Wild Thing bum outta here! [Edited due to logical fallacy]
T – Bulls are methodically scoring now. Cavs need to get some stops to keep this one from slipping away. Chicago took it to the Cavs early in the 2nd against the Cleveland 2nd unit before the Cavs seemed to stop the bleeding on offense. But they never really stopped the Bulls from scoring, especially inside. The Bulls picked the Cavs apart with passing and when the Cavs collapsed the Bulls always swung it to an open 3 point shooter. They finished the game 10-14 (!) from 3 and 5 of those came in the 2nd quarter onslaught. Tristan Thompson scored 8 of the Cavs 20 second quarter points and the Wine and Gold went into the half down only 3.
<- 3rd Quarter ->
The 3rd quarter started out a back and forth affair between the research triangle (Boozer 6, Irving 3, Zeller 2). At 7:05 left in the 3rd, Nomadic Nate Robinson came in and began an aggravating night. He dished out 2 dimes keeping the Bulls assist-train rolling. (They finished the night with 34 assists on 44 baskets!) The only lifeline was some inspired play by Dion Waiters – he scored 8 straight points to try and stem the Bulls offensive exploitation of Cleveland’s interior D.
T – Really a terrible possession by Kyrie there. Irving received a screen from Thompson at the top of the key in which Tristan switched sides at the last second. It was a very effective screen and it gave Kyrie a healthy amount of free space. He could have easily pulled up from 15 (he was wide open) but choose to keep pounding it until the help came. Normally this wouldn’t be so bad but there was only a few seconds left on the clock when TT set the screen. Kyrie’s clock awareness was not there and he picked up his dribble with no one open to pass to as his pass attempt was tipped out of bounds by Chicago with the clock about to expire. Rather incredibly, with 0 seconds showing on the shot clock, the Cavs inbounded the ball to a leaping Zeller who tipped it in off the glass to save the possession.
D – Tom, you’ve been hating on Kyrie a lot recently. I agree he goes to isolation too quickly and too frequently, but when C.J. Miles and Tristan aren’t moving, and his other options are a Dion Waiters brick or a Tyler Zeller turnover….This is a great point, and turnovers have plagued the Cavs. More analysis on this comment in the closing remarks.
D – If Dion wasn’t heating up right now the game would be a lost cause. I hate Carlos Boozer.
C – Waiters really is improving at the rim, which will hopefully encourage him to rely on drives as his primary weapon on offense. Waiters was 6/6 from the line and was attacking often.
T – Yeah he has looked more comfortable finishing which is much needed.
C – It’s strange to watch the Bulls without Derrick Rose because they’re a slightly less effective team that’s in some ways more fun to watch. Their bigs move the ball really well and it gets them easy buckets near the rim. (Get well soon, D-Rose; I love to watch you play, etc., of course.) Watching the difference between the Bulls and the Cavs offensive sets is jarring. The Bulls waste no energy, make crisp, effective passes, and swing the ball from side to side. It goes without saying they have more talent and experience as the Cavs as well.
D – OMRI CASSPI SIGHTING. DION WAITERS AIRBALL. WOOHOO. Casspi checked in with 3:05 left in the 3rd.
C – “Obligatory Dion Waiters Airball” is a troubling meme.
T – I call it “another Dion Waiters Airball” – Obligatory implies a quota of 1.
D – Despite the huge deficit, Byron Scott will leave Kyrie out of the game until there’s 6:00 left in the fourth and we’re too far back to win anyways. Horrific third quarter; stagnant offense, stagnant defense. Sixteen points down. Gentlemen, take your bets: what’s your call for the final score? Cavs 101 Bulls 98 At the end of 3 the Cavs trailed 88 – 72, meaning Dani needed a 19 point 4th Quarter differential for his prediction to hold true, harking back to the Mike Brown Era.
C – Cavs: Silent Eternity, Bulls: Quiet Decimation, Colin: Beer
<- 4th Quarter ->
C – What is this lineup, by the way? Kevin Jones, C.J. Miles, Omri Casspi, Shaun Livingston, and Tyler Zeller? Who scores? (Rhetorical question, obvs. No one does.)
T – I like this lineup. Plus FREECASSPI!
C – Tom’s going to every Cavs game this year to sit in the upper deck and yell, “WHY WON’T YOU PLAY ONE OF THE CHOSEN PEOPLE?” at Byron Scott the whole time. On Cue, Omri had a nice pumpfake, 1 dribble, that led to a sweet mid-range J. He followed it up with a strong drive and a pretty feed to a cutting Shaun Livingston, cutting a once hopeless 22 point deficit to 16 before the Bulls called timeout.
D – If Omri Casspi gets us back in this game I’ll move to Israel.
T – I love this lineup. DISCERNIBLE OFFENSIVE SETS. Players receiving and passing out of the paint. Casspi pump faking people into shots, dribble drive n kicks, and no one dribbling repeatedly. I took this opportunity to reflect on what an actual offense with passing and cutting looks like – this brief few minutes was it. Unfortunately, running what looks aesthetically like a real offense is mutually exclusive with getting stops. And the Bulls quickly destroyed all hope out of the timeout.
T – Good ol Nate Robinson and his Sam Cassel Cheshire Cat Smile.
D – There might be nothing more depressing than watching Nate Robinson shoot your team out of a game. Nomadic Nate came out of the Bulls timeout and promptly drained 2 threes right in Dion’s eye all while taunting him. Robinson and Marco Belinelli had eerily similar (and dominant) stat lines tonight. Both were 5-8 from the field including 3-4 from distance, and both were +24 in 24 minutes. Bulls bench >>> Cavs bench.
T – Wait does the ref not realize that the unnatural leg kick is just part of Dion’s shot?! Dion looks to get an AND-1 on a 3 and although my sound was muted at that point, he was called for an offensive foul. Maybe it was for a previous push off that I didn’t see. If it was because he kicked his leg out, then this applies.
D – When Lebron or Kevin Durant beats you, at least it doesn’t seem shocking and demeaning all the way through- you know it’s coming. When Nate Robinson wins games, it’s like a baby beating the hell out of you with a toothpick.
And that about wrapped it up. The Bulls (this is not a typo) went 12-14 in the 4th quarter, and the 12 included 3 And-1s (in other words, fouling didn’t stop them), 3 triples, and 2 other long 2s. Total domination against Casspi, Leuer, and company.
T – Anyone think B Scott put Casspi and Leuer out there tonight to fail just to give CtB the finger? I do. I don’t.
And that concludes this live-email recap. I have one concluding remark. The Cavaliers do not trust their offense. Quite often, they will run a set, an entry pass will get tipped or a role player will fumble the ball away. And that’s that. They go away from it and revert to isolation hero-ball (for lack of a more creative term). They need to trust the system and make the necessary adjustments. There is nothing gained by giving up on trying to execute more complex plays and sticking to isolation and a two-man game on a team that is lottery bound.
Nate and Dani offered their post-game thoughts as well.
Dani:
-Fantastic first quarter from Kyrie. He came out firing and passing, and it was beautiful. Unfortunately, it was downhill from there. Ugly final three quarters from Kyrie. I’d be more disappointed with him, but the Bulls defense will do that to you- they have a tendency to turn every NBA offense into an iso-happy-mid-range-miss-fest
-Dion really turned it on in the third to keep us in the game when the Bulls started scoring, but he didn’t do much else. The ugly step-back jumpers continue, and they continue to suck. When he drove to the basket, good things tended to happen. Nice passing, though- he had a few inside feeds that took your breath away.
-Zeller was terrible. He kept on throwing the ball right to Luol Deng. Who knows why. Maybe he owed him several favors?
-Tristan was the beast we’ve grown accustomed to over the last few weeks. In the first half. After that, the Bulls interior D clamped down, and he responded meekly.
-Everyone else, well….whatever. Alonzo was a mixed bag as usual, although his defense was pretty awful tonight. Kevin Jones looked solid, although he continues to be very small for an NBA power forward. Omri Casspi sighting! He played well in garbage time. Maybe Byron will let him play next game? Over Luke Walton? That’d be nice. Coach Scott’s rotations continue to be unfathomable.
Nate:
-So there’s nothing like jumping up 10 points on a team in the 1st and still losing by 26.
-Nate Robinson: +24 in 24 minutes — or, there’s a reason Shaun Livingston was on the waiver wire.
– Cavs need a guy not afraid to put an elbow in Boozer’s grill. Preferably he’d have the last name Gund.
– Tyler Zeller is softer than the Stay Puff (sic) Marshmallow man.
-Will Cleveland lose by more or less than the Irish? I’m betting less. (Good bet. The Cavs lost by 26, the Irish by 28. What an AWFUL night for TV)
-Do the Cavs have to pay individual postage for mailing this game in, or can they just mail in the entire season in bulk?
-Tristan’s developing post game: a nice development, but the Bulls have already snuffed him out. He needs a counter off the hook shot — even if he is ambidextrous.
-Who’s the next Tom Thibodeau (sic – as in he might be feeling sick right now), and how do we find him?
-So the Starting Five for the all time Cavs hate team has to be Rasheed, Boozer, LeBron, DeShawn Stevenson, and Jordan, right? Throwing this one right to the commentariat. Who’s the Cavs all-time hate team?
I went to this game. The first qtr was great. I pissed off everyone around me… then the rest of the game happened.
Im surprised there isnt as much disgust for T. Zeller. I have never seen a player that big play that soft.
Mallory.
Its the players around him. Wall should take the next step with this wiz team in the 2nd half if they don’t then they have some issues.
Tyreke can’t shoot, and hasnt worked that part of his gm since entering the lg. Cousin is a head case, with elite talent, but im here telling everyone the obvious. Kyrie and the Cavs take the jump next season with the right pieces from the off season.
DiO- unfortunately, in the nba teams are often very evasive and secretive when it comes to injuries. Situations like the current one with Andy are still the exception, though.
Hey guys it’s my first comment here, I started to follow the CAVS campaign this season and I have a question.
Are the injury reports of NBA teams always as superficial as the ones we are getting for Andy?
Here in Brazil when a soccer player gets hurt, after two or three days we get very especific info on the injury he suffered, what is the treatment he will get, and the predicted time to heal, but in Andy’s case all we hear is “bruised knee”.
What’s that?!!
Is it in the joint itself?
Bone?
Cartilage?
Ligaments?
Muscle?
If we are in year three of the rebuild, then OKC was in like year 5 or whatever when they finally turned it around.
One quibble Mallory- you said there’s no reason we should be this bad 3 years after Lebron left. A major caveat Lebron leaving literally decimated the Cavs in a way few teams in the NBA have ever experienced. This wasn’t a typical rebuilding situation. Our roster was built around him, etc…..I don’t want to rehash old, bad memories. But I would argue that in terms of “years into the rebuild,” I think we’re two, not three. The team we fielded after Lebron left was truly pathetic- we had no talent.
it’s always somewhat satisfying to see Dion finish a game with at least 50 percent from the field.
Scuzz –
I understand that source of optimism, I do. I just wish there had been a progressive building of talent. Bonanzas always make me nervous.
Mallory
I get your point that the Clips, Warriors, and Griz didn’t become playoff teams the OKC way. But if the Cavs spend big in FA next season, then they aren’t really following the OKC model either. Would you agree? I think they will. Which is why I’m optimistic despite the losing.
Varejao now out three weeks with a “bone bruise.” At some point, are we going to get an actual story about what is going on? Because it’s beyond bone bruise territory.
Rich I’m hoping to get the actual story on what happened in the 2010 Boston series. Not sure I will ever get it. Also been waiting for Half-Life 3 for 8 years. But yeah, I’d like some real insight into Varejao and Casspi DNPs.
^^^^ SUCCESS!
I don’t know about any of this, but I love the Grumposaur T-shirt and want one of my own.
Mallory
No, he’s not. Of course, he wasn’t the GM when the Cavs brought in Ben Wallace, Shaq, Jamison, and others. That was Danny Ferry. But you get the point. He’s willing to green light a big FA expense, like P. Millsap.
Scuzz –
Dan Gilbert has, but as far as I can tell he’s not the GM of this team. He’s not the one calling agents/GMs trying to make a deal.
He just gets relayed messages saying “can I do x”
Carter, Maybe Joe JOhnson is a bit old. Lets say Danilo.
Carter –
I’m not really sure – I’ve been toying around with it. Someone in the Iguodala type make (obviously not him) who plays on a team that’s headed down, not up.
Joe Johnson would’ve been a PERFECT Candidate because we have a crap ton of cap room, he could play SF for us, and would actually make us better in the short term and provide leadership.
Like I said, drafting high shouldn’t be a necessity for us anymore. Drafting smart, though…
@ Mallory
“There’s been a lot of “wait, just wait! Chris Grant is going to mega deal!” – I’ll believe that when I see it.”
Hasn’t Dan Gilbert proven that he’s committed to winning, and he’s willing to spend big when necessary? To me, he has. We’ll see what happens after the season.
mallory, what’s the basement for how good that player would have to be?
By the way, my last comment follows my mindset that we’d be best served trading this upcoming pick, even if it’s the #1, for a real vet. No sure things in this draft, let some other team take their 1/5 shot in the dark. If we can swap that pick for a proven NBA player with some upside, I’d take it in a heartbeat.
Scuzz – The flaw with your thinking is that there are plenty of reasons to be concerned too. How many straight years were the TWolves awful? What about the Warriors? Clips? Grizz? NONE of those teams became contenders the “OKC” way. In fact, I’d go so far as to say they all did it by giving up on the lottery and actually looking for the best they can do. There’s been a lot of “wait, just wait! Chris Grant is going to mega deal!” – I’ll believe that when I see it. As I’ve said a million times, assets are… Read more »
Corey –
What’s the difference between John Wall, Kyrie Irving, Tyreke Evans, and Boogie Cousins? Is Kyrie’s “greatness” really that much greater than the others?
No way I’m reading through all this (it’s been a crazy busy day at work) but I’ll say this – I’ve been extremely consistent on my feelings of all this losing. I think the idea of losing to win makes sense only if you don’t have a superstar. The moment you get a star, your goal should be to SMARTLY (NOTE THAT) build a team around them. Allowing them to grow is important, but allowing them to grow into the player you need them to be is more important. One of the biggest concerns many Cavs fans have noticed is… Read more »
Our best play of the night was the inbounds play with .4 on the clock. Didnt think scott had it in him to get a play like that drawn up. Cavs are fine. Just sit back enjoy the development and take the losses in stride. Here comes Shabazz Muhammad/Noel/Bennett .. all in which if they don’t start will certainly pair nicely off the bench with CJ. Losing isn’t something great players get accustomed to either fellas. Never once after a loss did it ever sit well with me or any other athlete. It’s the competitive nature of the sport to… Read more »
@Scuzz – i guess the crux of my argument is hard to justify. But yes, I am arguing that it is not W/L or “they played a good team close for 3 3/4 quarter” or anything like that. That is sort of bottom line stuff and I recognize that for a very young team with middling talent and only 1 player in his prime (who has been out since mid December) the bottom line shouldn’t be expected to be very good. I guess many of the “good” things I see do not seem sustainable. A bit of a mirage if… Read more »
@Tom- interesting Hoosier reference there. Hadn’t considered that. But I think you’re right.
@ Tom I think the things you’ve criticized the Cavs for, blowing a large lead, not executing at a crucial point in the game are due to a lack of experience. In fact, I think you basically state the same thing in the last paragraph of your reply. The reason I’m not discouraged is that I think that is correctable. Actually, I would argue that it’s the most correctable of any flaws a player could have. I also stated that I believe the Cavs will be better after this season, because I think they will bring in some quality veteran… Read more »
Did I read in someone’s comment that there is no such thing as a culture of winning? That’s complete bollocks. The reason the cavs did not win between early 1990s and the lebron era is that they didn’t have any culture changers on their roster, in their front office, etc. Culture is everything. In the corporate world, in sports, etc. Lakers basketball success is all about their culture. It draws winners. Culture builds fan bases…it’s what drove the 1994-2000 Indians success, and what has kept Cleveland Cavs fans expectations high even after Lebron left, that we would develop a winner.… Read more »
s87twist,
Cols714 called “winning culture” BS as a rebutal to a point that I wasn’t actually trying to make.
In fairness to cols – if my NBA fan acumen led me to believe that all young players improve except JJ Hickson and Omri Casspi (and Boobie Gibson and Danny Green and Shannon Brown and Christian Eyenga and Ramon Sessions) I wouldn’t understand what all the fuss is either.
I liked this recap format a lot.
@grover – that is a very coherent comment. Thanks for adding to the value here. I will say that I have seen one of the symptoms of the losing mentality – the Cavs “core” players are losing trust in the system. Sometimes the Cavaliers actually do run an offense were all 5 players are in motion during a possession and there seems to be some decisive execution. The problem arises when a pass gets tipped or a player shuffles the feet or something goes awry (usually turnover related). Suddenly, Kyrie and Dion freeze up – and maybe they harken back… Read more »
There was one play in the first quarter last night where CJ Miles ran around two screens and caught a pass from Kyrie 15-feet from the basket, moving towards the basket, and I thought “wow, that looked like an offensive set.” That was cool.
That moment for me is preserved in this recap – where Omri Casspi drove by his defender, required a help defender, and made a slick dump off pass to a cutting Shaun Livingston who made the bucket. Everyone was moving on that play and it generated an open look.
@Nate – that’s all you’re giving him? How about 24 hour comment monster protection?
“Being in an analytical/forecasting job, one of the hardest things to explain to senior management is the effect of compounding- of layered risk. Individually, each one of the items I addressed in the first paragraph make sense for a team at this stage of development. But when you layer them all together….I’m becoming very concerened that we’re creating a losing mentality that these young players- however talented- won’t be able to grow out of. They’ll either underwhelm in their development, or leave for greener pastures at the first opportunity.” grover13+11 Quote of the year, so far, grover13. You just got… Read more »
@grover – did you see my response to you on the ‘Reading the Tea Leaves’ comment you just left?
OK guys – i have a request for feedback. Does the injection of non-basketball related themes/memes/media/references add, subtract, or do nothing to the overall experience here? For example the SNL Jeopardy reference and then Ghostbusters reference? Seems like there is very little if any commentary like “you guy think you’re clever and you’re not” or “Anyone know where I can find Ecto Cooler these days? Thanks for the nostalgia.”
SOUND OFF
I don’t mind acknowledging the fact that this is a young team, and they are going to lose. A lot. I don’t mind that we can get the young guys valuable minutes at the expense of wins, which will help them grow. I don’t mind that Grant is holding his free-agent gun powder for when the Cavs are closer to being competitve, and I don’t mind scarificing one more season to get a better draft pick. But it feels like it’s all getting piled on a bit thick here. It’s folly to think that just because a player gets 2-3… Read more »
Cols – Why don’t you jot down some notes during the next game. Just write your own recap in the comments. That way we can all see what it is you are watching and analyzing and we can all be much happier. The more data points the better.
Kevin – yeah I know. you are saying “player development” and your evidence will be in wins. I am also saying “player development” but I know if I say ‘reflected in wins’ people will throw a fit about how this team isn’t supposed to win. I agree with you that if they do the things I am looking for – wins will follow. But my expectations are so low and “patient” when it comes to record. The flip side is – I am not at all satisfied with 25 wins if it came on the back of playing the Wizards… Read more »
@Scuzz – I think in a vacuum – or maybe box score watching, you are right in saying the games are kinda close, no cause for alarm. I guess even if you look at margin of victory and notice that only Washington and Charlotte are worse you could still talk yourself into positive thoughts because -5.9 ppg isn’t like -9 or something REALLY bad. But if you watch the WAY the Cavs hang around games and the WAY they lose games – it is frustrating. The things they do well are not methodical or part of some gameplan or identity.… Read more »
Kevin, Not really but that’s hard to say. If we’re assuming a fully healthy roster, which is a pretty unlikely assumption, then 18 wins wouldn’t be pretty. But I wouldn’t rule it out. If by the end of that 18 win season, Dion was completely on the outs with Byron Scott, or Kyrie’s body language was getting really negative, Tristan’s trajectory plateaus, etc, then I would be pretty worried. If they only won 18, but were regularly competitive and in mostly close games I think I’ll still have a cautiously optimistic attitude. I am expecting and hopeful that the second… Read more »
Brian, Are you a student or a working person? If working, I assume your job has defined expectations and performance measures that you are expected to meet. How should we define the performance goals that determine whether the Cavs are meeting expectations…would it be based on the SG’s relationship with the coach or the PG’s body language? In a business that is very number driven (every outcome is defined by winner that produced a higher number than the loser), it seems we could come up with better performance indicators to gauge whether the team is on target. If the team… Read more »
Also @ Hot Sauce – this is a 2400 word post. 1,000 word posts are for the weak, not for me and CERTAINLY not for Nate. And I’m not sure why you think you are making some sort of obvious point with comparing the tone to last year with now. It’s a year later. in 15 years if the Cavs are still a bottom 5 team will you be upset because “geez guys the last 14 years you’ve been ok with the fact that the team is young and in flux?” At some point it’s time to win. Kevin think… Read more »
Tom Pestak,
When you note that I say now is the time to win, I will reiterate…25 wins…not exactly asking for night-in, night-out dominance. And really that hope for wins is completely tied to my hopes for player development. Game winners going in-and-out eventually balance out, but the general idea is that improving players will net W’s.
I do love that Kevin, Me, Mallory, and Nate are all arguing back then -and now we all write for the blog, continue to argue with each other, and there is this narrative that the blog has a group-think “tone”. Also – it’s really fun to see the attitudes back then.
Kevin, To go back for a second, I will concede on the “meaningless win” part of my original statement. I don’t think wins are meaningless, I just used a lazy cliche phrase. But I do stand by it being a good thing that Scott does not have to overly concerned about their win loss record at this point in time. We’re in complete disagreement about how quickly development starts to convert in to wins. And hopefullt all this losing is not all for nothing. Hopefully management is doing its job and teaching these guys some hard lessons and not letting… Read more »
Brian,
Just to be clear on our “complete disagreement about how quickly development starts to convert to wins”; are you ok with 18 wins this season?
Cols, who exactly is developing outside of TT? TT has been awesome and getting better, no doubt. He’s the only player besides andy on the upswing. Kyrie is awesome, but is in no way improved from last year outside of minutes per game. Dion is much worse now than the beginning of the year, even including last night, his first decent game in over a month. Gee has plateued, Omri came here to die, CJ miles has improved back to normal levels from the worst funk of his entire career that happened to coincide with him coming to play for… Read more »
Kevin No, the players improving does not have to lead to wins at all this year. Even when Kyrie and Dion and Tristan are performing well the bench is still pretty lousy. Lousy enough to lose games. The key is the development, not wins. Wins do not matter at all this year. There is no such thing as a “winning culture”. If there was then what was the magic that made the Cavs have a “winning culture” in the early 1990s, then lose that culture until LeBron arrives, then regaining it when LeBron is here and then losing it when… Read more »
Cols714,
I never said anything about a “winning culture”? I just said that players developing properly should lead to wins, approximately 25 this season. I stand by that.
Hot Sauce
Exactly. The vibe of this blog is that of a team with no future. Which is exactly the opposite of the feeling I get when I watch this team play.
Kevin, Point taken. They could very well take another step next season; start winning more and make a low-seeded playoff push. But there’s no guarantee of that. They could regress. I think my indication of a bright future is all the close games they have played with this roster. How many Cavs games have been decided in the last few minutes, like the Houston game? I’d have to take a good look later, but I’m willing to bet it’s over 12. I know you mentioned that you wanted to avoid long losing streaks (which is a very reasonable goal), but… Read more »
Scuzz, First, I don’t think the team can regress. They 100% certainly will be better next season than they are right now (18-win pace). My concerns are rooted in the idea that for Cleveland, there is a fine line in maximizing every resource available that will eventually separate the possibility of contending from also-ran status. At this point in the rebuild that fine-line may manifest itself as the difference between 19 and 25 wins. Eventually it could be the difference between 34 and 42 wins, and hopefully someday the difference between 50 wins and a second-round playoff exit or 58… Read more »
I think it’s fair to expect team development similar to what the Thunder went through. That means we win around 23 games this year, and we absolutely contend for the playoffs next season.
If we make the playoffs next year (despite the likely sweep in the first round) we will be right on track. Re-sign Lebron after next season and we’re back on top.
And to be clear. My point is not to troll your arguments. I appreciate the effort that goes into the blog. My point is to push back on the “world is ending” vibe that permeates a lot of the posts this year. Our team is in very good position. We just need to be patient to see how it shakes out.
Kevin, A quick review of the Archive produced this post from the end of last February: https://cavstheblog.com//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////?p=8401 Colin wrote it and it argues for losing: “But it’s an unnatural feeling, to be down ten with six minutes to play and half-hope one’s team doesn’t bridge the deficit. We’re supposed to use comebacks as an opportunity to bond with like-minded strangers, after all, and wins are the lifeblood of the fan beaten down by sub-par performances and losing streaks. But part of being human is the ability to let logic drive the bus once in awhile. Losing this season gives the… Read more »
Hot Sauce – my argument for losing wasn’t very strong. Here is it as written: “I love the attitude, I love the hard work. But at the end of the day, if a few more of these game winners rolled out, it would probably be better for the future of the franchise. The Cavs biggest priorities, however, should be to develop their own talent.” I’m glad my position hasn’t changed in 3 years. Developing their own talent is the key to the rebuild. I wouldn’t say I was pining for tanking. (I know I wasn’t because I was pissed at… Read more »
Tom – the counter to your counter:
It was a 4 point game with just under two minutes left, their superstar (Harden) took over, the Cavs superstar came up a little short. The game could have gone either way.
The point I’m trying to make is that if the Cavs are playing close games now with all the first and second year players, what will it be like when they get more experience? Or when they do go after some higher level free agents? I agree with Brian. There is reason to see a bright future.
Scuzz,
I don’t think anyone is disagreeing that “there is reason to see a bright future”; there is reason to maintain some level of wariness also. This is a team that can go alot of directions. Personally, as an indication of the bright future, I would like to see 25 wins.
Fair enough on the Rockets. I’m not familiar enough with their roster to make an argument, though I will say Harden is further along than Kyrie as a player and a leader as he’s played more seasons and brings championship experience with him. But I just don’t agree with player development=more wins this season. It doesn’t happen overnight. People were blasting TT last season and weeks ago, but if you watched him closely, even in the bad games, you could see things slowly starting to click. Seeing that transition is exciting to me. Zeller is not going to put on… Read more »
Brian – good argument. Here’s the counter.
The Rockets (who beat the Cavs AT the Q last week) are younger than the Cavs. They have only 2 players with over 500 minutes that have a PER over 15. Their “veterans” are Carlos Delfino and Daequan Cook and a guy that crapped his pants all over the NBA finals last year – James, the beard Harden. 3 year NBA “veteran”. 20 and 14 in a stacked conference and the only division with 3 20 win teams. And almost none of those guys have played together before this season.
Brian, Here’s another counter; can you find a comparable situation to Cleveland’s that resulted in near-term contending? The only real parallel that comes to mind for me is the 2008 – 2009 Thunder. That season, in Durant’s 2nd year, they finished their final 50 games with 20 wins. Overwhelmingly, their three leaders in minutes were Durant, Jeff Green and Westbrook in their 2nd, 2nd and 1st seasons. Those three played 43% of the team’s minutes and players 25-and-under took 63% of the playing time. Per minute, their weighted average age was 24.5, slightly younger than Cleveland. Again, I think “young… Read more »
CrimsonJoe!!! From the ARCHIVES!
Yes, my Dad STILL talks about that elbow Mahorn gave Price. My Dad said for a moment he thought he actually killed him. I was a little too young to remember stuff like that. Mostly just wins and losses and 3s and dunks. I know some college ballers that are now middle-aged men that say those Bad Boy Pistons teams almost ruined the NBA.
Upon further review – my all-time Cavalier hate team is: LeBron, Kobe, Jordan, Free Agents, and the 09 Magic team.
Kevin, the Cavs signed up for this when they didn’t bring in any free agents. Unless the rooks all have Kyrie Irving superstar potential, this team is not going to win much at all this year. Can you point to any other team that was this young with no veteran leadership and had success? We are starting 4 first and second year players and a D-league break through in Alonzo Gee. Hopefully over the course of this season and next, with a trade, or signing, and another draft pick, it will start taking shape. And it needs to next season… Read more »
Brian,
If the rooks all have Kyrie Irving superstar potential, then they win games. That’s not what I am arguing. Young players rarely have that immediate impact.
I am not asking for success, but merely:
– Avoid Blow-outs
– No long losing streaks
– Beat bad teams at home
It seems obvious to me that expecting these things over the second half of this season is reasonable. Maybe I’m crazy.
We played a veteran playoff team that plays incredible defense, gives incredible effort every night, has a brilliant coach, and has one of the deepest, most physical front lines on the road. And our third big men was Kevin Jones – a guy who was in the D-league last week!!?!?!? We got annihilated by a team that should of annihilated us. If anything, the fact that we played them close for 2.5 quarters using only 8 players was a minor miracle (only 3 of which were big men, 2 of which were rookies who were forced into rotation spots well… Read more »
Hot Sauce,
I was an anti-tanking advocate last season, and I think Mallory was also. Colin probably shaded towards accepting losing. Nate and Tom didn’t write for the blog during last season. Was Cavs: the Blog excessively opining on the Cavs winning too much last year?
Check it, Thompson had a good game, Dion had a good game, Kyrie not so much but he’s not a worry for us anyways.
Look guys, the young players are playing better. This is what the season is about. Wins do not matter here. At all.
Quit treating every game as a must win game. There are no must win games for this team. The key is improvement and we are seeing it.
Cols714, I agree that “young player development is this year’s key”, but don’t agree that “wins don’t matter”. As the season moves on, you realize these two ideas aren’t mutually exclusive, right? If the young players are improving, wins will come. This doesn’t have to completely wait until next season; accepting that idea is troublesome to me. I am not treating every game as must-win, but blow-outs, losses at home to crappy teams, and long losing streaks should not be routinely shrugged-off in 2013. Winning 40% of games in January – April should be considered as a necessary proof that… Read more »
Don’t pile on Tyler too hard Ben. This is why mid first round picks don’t normally start, or even usually get a ton of playing time. Like it or not this year is basically extended preseason. Young guys getting their toes wet, learning what they need to improve on for next year. Tyler looks in over his head now for sure, but he’s getting experience that most teams wouldn’t allow him because Scott doesn’t have to worry about securing his job with meaningless wins while sacrificing player development.
Brian,
At some point, player development = wins. Not 40 this year, but the second half of the season needs to see a lot less 26 point losses, long losing streaks, losing at home to bad teams with injured starters on the second night of their back-to-back while the Cavs are rested, etc. If those things don’t start happening, people need to stop playing the “meaningless wins and player development” card. The entirety of this season should not include a blank check of support for the coaching / team.
The worst thing about this game for me was Tyler Zeller. This was perhaps his worst game as a pro. I can almost forgive a guy for having short arms, a slim frame, and an inconsistent J. What I CANNOT forgive is his troubling habit of ball watching when he should be doing SOMETHING. This applies to defensive rebounding, where he frequently just watches the flight of the ball instead of boxing out, and in his defensive rotations, big to big, where here seems totally confused if the big whom he isn’t guarding has the ball. This is a guy… Read more »
In that vein, Kevin, I think the effects of veterans like Parker and Jamison cannot be underestimated. The Cavs lack of assertive veterans has hurt the development this year. That being said, I’m about ready to petition the US Postal Service for a commemorative Byron Scott postage stamp in honor of this season.
Agh Make it go away. We shouldn’t be this bad.
I watched the first half then went to work….I saw the way better half. Hawks game Wednesday. If you see a sloppy guy with unkempt hair who hasn’t shaved in a week vomiting up Christmas Ale and Dortmunder in the third row it’s me (can you be more specific))!
Horrible ending to a great start… Even when the Cavs show their potential, they aren’t keeping it up for the full game.
All time hate team: Boozer, LeBron, Rick Mahorn (still furious over his cheap shot to Price), Rashard Lewis (caught on steroids during the 2009 playoffs but not found out until a year too late)… I’ll put Dwyane Wade in the last spot, but no one else really rises to the level of the first four.
Lebron, Stevenson, Pietrus, Jordan, Lebron…Boozer doens’t matter enough to mention. Stevenson sucks…but he is annoying enough to matter. Boozer left before it hurt that bad. Lebron left and kicked us all in the balls. He takes boozer’s spot and his own. This game really showed up B Scott’s weaknesses. In allllllll kinds of ways.
My all time hate team:
LeBron, Sheed, Rafer Alston, Hedo Turkgoglu, Rashard Lewis.
This game haunts me. http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200905260ORL.html Look at that box score. Dwight Howard 7-9 from the foul line. Rafer alston 6 threes. Pietrus 5 threes. Unreal.
Tom, Regarding the Leuer / Casspi middle finger joke, I think you had a player development post in the works that probably details something along the lines of this comment. Casspi’s career season is still as a 21-year old in Sacramento; Leuer sported above average PER and adjusted plus-minus last year. Both have not exhibited growth while in Cleveland. Kyrie’s PER and assist rate are down from his rookie season; Dion’s shooting dropped calamitously from October / November to December from 38 / 36 / 77 to 34 / 21 / 63. Obviously, Tristan is taking nice steps forward, and… Read more »