Bench Week!
2013-03-25Really, this is a little late. With Kyrie and Dion out, the Livingston – Ellington – Miles – Walton – Speights second-unit ceases to exist. But the success of this group served as one of the more unique stories of the Cavalier season. And while the story received frequent recap coverage, we at Cavs: the Blog felt a more thorough memorialization was due. For six weeks, this crew, affectionately dubbed the Herculoids, unexpectedly provided one of the NBA’s better benches. Consider:
- None of these guys ever played together prior to January 2nd.
- Since joining the Cavs, Shaun Livingston’s PER is 15, better than any of his previous ten stints with an NBA team.
- During his three seasons in Minnesota and early part of this year with Memphis, Wayne Ellington never posted double-digit PER. In 600 minutes in Cleveland, he soars to a 15.4
- Same story for Mo Speights, an 18.3 PER exceeds anything done in Philly or Memphis.
- And of course, C.J. Miles joins in also. His 15.2 PER in 2012 – 2013 serves as a career-best.
- Unfortunately, Luke Walton’s PER is only his best since 2008 – 2009. His assist rate and assists-per-36-minutes easily reach peak levels though.
Not impressed yet? How about this then, from January 25th, when Ellington and Speights arrive, through March 10th (Kyrie’s last game)? The Cavs go 10 – 10 during this time, as:
- Walton ups his assists per 36 minutes to 8.8. His previous career-high rate was 5.6…from his rookie season. His assist to turnover ratio was 50% better than his career average (3.32 compared to 2.15)
- Livingston’s 6.5 assists per 36 minutes are only bested by his rookie season. His 3.67 assist to turnover ratio, which would rank 5th in the NBA, dwarfs the remainder of his career (2.22). Also, as a player with career 51% true shooting, Livingston scorched the nets with 61% during these six weeks.
- Per 36 minutes, CJ Miles scored 22 points on 63% True Shooting. Ellington posted 15 and 61% TS, and Speights dished-out 21 and 10 rebounds. They were killing it.
Each of these guys are 25-or-older. What facilitated them playing at peak levels at the exact same time? I mean, these guys were not highly-regarded NBA players. Is it luck associated with small sample size, or was something bigger going on? This week, Nate, Tom and I will explore that question.
Today: I will briefly talk about the things a player can’t control that may decide his success or failure.
Tuesday: Nate will talk about Shaun Livingston’s role on the Cavaliers. Just how have he and the coaching staff adjusted the offense and defense to enable to Shaun to have the best months of his career?
Wednesday: Tom will talk about the different approaches to the game between the core and the Herculoids and what the core needs to assimilate from their brethren.
Today, I focus primarily on Luke Walton and Wayne Ellington. Early this season, Walton was horrible, continuing a several year trend. Of Cavs fans, 99% assumed his usefulness ceased to exist. Of non-Cavs NBA-fans, 100% probably thought he retired. The slim super-minority supporting him (including Tom) weren’t saying “he is better than you guys think”; it was more like “he teaches the youngsters to play the right way” (which oftentimes meant without athleticism and with extremely errant jumpers). Basically, court-vision & passing serves as his only remaining, apparent skill.
Prior to joining Cleveland, Walton spent his entire career playing alongside Kobe; the offense did not run through Luke very often. Early this season, playing alongside ball-dominant guards like Jeremy Pargo or Dion Waiters; same story. And this makes sense – why would you build an offense around Luke Walton?
The Herculoids were perfectly suited for Walton’s skill-set though. The guards were low usage: one a skilled passer and the other a proficient floor-spacer. The Center offered a bruising low-post presence that picked up the rebounding-slack and spaced the floor. Suddenly, Cleveland started running the second-string offense through him, surrounded by solid shooters and smart cutters, and he looked like an offensive maestro.
For Ellington, his career began on a horribly dysfunctional 15 -win Timberwolves team, with the minutes and usage leaders being Al Jefferson and Jonny Flynn. The next season featured Michael Beasley and Anthony Randolph, and the assists leaders averaged 5.4 and 3.4 per game; during both seasons, Minnesota ranked bottom-four in the NBA for percentage of assisted field goals. By his third season, as the Wolves started getting fun, he was an afterthought, seemingly playing out his rookie-contract towards a short career. According to basketball-reference, the players most similar to him after three years were: Pace Mannion, Chris Corchiani, Gerald Glass, Mike Holton, Harold Ellis, and Franklin Edwards. Huh?
Then, traded twice in six months, the second as a salary dump, he suits-up for a new team and promptly posts career highs in PER, offensive rating, usage, defensive rebound rate and steal percentage. In 25 games with Cleveland, he matched his previous career total for Offensive Win Shares, accumulated over 229 games. Double huh? Given additional offensive freedom and matched with a pair of excellent passers, he showed enticing ability scoring off-the-dribble, cutting to the hoop, and with his trademark shooting (career 39% from three).
What does it all mean?
Basically, for every Kyrie Irving or Kevin Durant, players destined for stardom regardless of circumstance, there are one-hundred players whose NBA career hinges on forces not under their control. These aspects could include: coaching, system, organizational commitment, or a positional logjam. Within those, exist subsets; coaching could include the boss’s relationship with or confidence in a player, or the instruction received. Lack of fit with a system perhaps hinges on the actual play-calls or perhaps a mis-assignment of role within the given plays. Perhaps items as diverse as the quality of an organizations trainers, strength coaches, nutritionists, or doctors, even give a player advantages over a similar guy. And sometimes, all that is needed is an opportunity.
Obviously this isn’t an amazing, new idea. Matter of fact; here is a podcast from last season between Henry Abbott and David Thorpe, talking about Royal Jelly. For this quintet, their recent opportunity in Cleveland possibly changed the remainder of their careers. In Luke Walton’s case, it may just be another year in the league. For Ellington, the resultant perhaps comes through contractual security this off-season.
These considerations are also vital as Cleveland hopefully melds myriad youngsters into a contender. The brief discussion of Russell Westbrook in the “Royal Jelly” podcast made me think of Dion Waiters. In the right situation, the young Cavalier shooting-guard develops into a star; in less suitable circumstances, perhaps he devolves into an inefficient chucker. The value of opportunity, solid positional coaching, and organizational-confidence in a player already surfaces in young Tristan Thompson.
Anyways, I’ve lost sight of my theme. Come back the next two days, for an in-depth look into the inner-tickings of the unlikeliest, excellent bench squad the NBA witnessed this season. Tom and Nate promise to bring their “A” games, backing up this Monday post (and probably finishing +11, compared to my -8).
TV63 – I’m probably one of those over at FTS who argues with him (though not as much as many others.) I just wanted to dispute some very specific points of his opinion that have no factual basis for. It’s one thing to say that you dont’ think he’ll be elite/all-star. That’s OK. But to say he is not athletic is completely misguided IMO. Especially in a position as weak as SG, the odds of him becoming an All-Star are pretty good IMO.
@Ben Don’t pay too much attention to WiMi’s comments on Dion. He’s a regular on Fear the Sword Blog and everyone there knows how frequently he hates on Dion. Nothing new there even when Dion was lighting it up and made rookie of the month. It’s just one of those things with people. He gets people there too arguing with him. It’s a waste of time to argue with someone who has made up their mind that Dion has no skill and is a disappointment which BY NO MEANS HE IS NOT. Just letting you know. No sense in letting… Read more »
Okay, the aspects of Iggy’s game that make him a better than an average player are all based on his supreme athleticism. Once his leaping ability, speed and agility slip he won’t be worth close to a max contract, which is what the Cavs would have to offer him for him to consider signing with the Cavs. If anything he might use the Cavs for leverage for his next contract. I saw Gerald Wallace as a very similar player. It’s not looking good for Wallace in year one of a four year deal. Iggy will command millions more. If he… Read more »
Iggy looks good now. He’s not going to come to Cleveland unless they drastically over pay. For a guy who’s entire game is based on his elite athleticism rather than refined skill you have to make a wager on where he is going to be in three or four years. How agile will he be when he’s 33 or 34? Is he going to be a more expensive Gerald Wallace?
@Cory – Christian Eyenga’s entire game was based on athleticism. just because Iguodala is a freak athlete doesn’t mean his entire game is based on athleticism.
Whatever happens next year, please let’s start with a better bench than we did this year. I don’t think I can survive another Donald Sloan experience,
@WitMi: In regards to your Dion Comment: “I don’t see Dion’s ceiling being a star in any situation, he is not athletic or skilled enough for that.” He has a pretty darned good first step and above average handles for a SG (as well as pretty good court vision.) Not to mention he’s strong for a 2-guard that allows him to absorb contact…he has a semi-decent chance of being a star in this league, particularly at his position (which is admittedly a weak position in the NBA.) ********************** @The Nupe: In regards to your Dion Comment: “I like Dion, but… Read more »
Dion has shown far more than “promise” these last 2 and half months. He has shown production and increased efficiency and a willingness and ability to be a cruch time performer. I am unable to comprehend those who somehow think a guy who is (arguably) the 3rd best rookie of his class is anything but a success so far…
I agree that veteran leadership plays a role in developing a team. It’s nice to have older guys that have been under pressure before. What ultimately makes a team successful is the talent of the players. I Cleveland, talent comes through the draft. No big free agent is going to sign here without being overpaid and other teams don’t just give up great players. So
New Windhorst podcast. Lots of talk about LeBron in this one.
http://www.stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=70&c=476&f=1208331
Thanks, Cody!
Kevin, Great insight about just how much the situation can effect a player’s usefullness. From many of the comments here, I’m not sure people really understand the the term complementary role player as well as the importance of them to a team’s success. Those players are not just space fillers to put on the court with the stars. In many cases they are essential to allowing the stars to showcase their skills. People are so used to looking at the individual talents that compose a team they often overlook the overall picture. The Cavs bench might be a good example… Read more »
Meant to say that I think the frontcourt of Varejao and Speights would be really fun to watch, Varejao’s Rebounding/Passing makes up for Speights’ lapses and speight’s shooting and toughness complements Andy well
Fun thought: IMO Say Everybody is healthy… (Pretend this is a scrimmage this summer) Young Team vr. Old(er) Team Kyrie, Dion, Bazz/Porter, Tristen, Zeller, [Bench] 2014 Draft Picks… I picked Willie Cauley-Stein, Myck Kabongo, and Gorgui Dieng vr. Livingston, Ellington, Gee, Speights, Varejao [Bench] C.J. Miles, Luke Walton, Greg Oden (I Know he is far from healthy) I pick the young team because Kyrie is the best player on the floor by a decent margin…. Livingstons length would bother him tho Nobody on the Old team can really take advantage of Zeller… I cant really imagine Oden healthy even in… Read more »
Do I think it’s impossible that will happen? No. But if, one year from now, we’re sitting here talking about a 36 win team that missed the playoffs, will everyone still be happy with the rebuild?
$ did anyone suggest that? Come on – don’t be silly. The point is if you put together a team of 20-24 year olds plus Andy and then filler, which is essentially what people are suggesting, this team should still be improved enough to make a 20 win leap next year. I don’t necessarily agree with that.
So Mallorey if we resign the ol’ vet Luke Walton for 3 years/$24 million then we’ll be good for a championship in a couple years? I’m not sure what you’re suggesting…
Lots of things I agree with here, although I’ll say this – The problem, going forward, isn’t young/potential-ed player. The problem is lack of a consistent vet, and it’s the reason that, unless a big move happens, a 30 win season is as likely as a 45 win season. So the Cavs draft a young SF and/or a young center – is that player a definite average or above average player? No. The sink or swim mentality is fine – seeing what the team currently has/whether or not they can survive, But if you’re down with that, you have to… Read more »
I think Dion has developed quite a bit since the beginning of the season. Less hero ball chucking and more attacking the rim. He just won East Rookie of the month for February and was seriously stellar with Irving out of the lineup. HIs defense needs work, but he’s not as bad as Kyrie was last year on D.
All teams need a quality bench. However, that’s a secondary consideration after having/developing a quality starting unit. I’m comfortable with Kyrie as a starting PG (if healthy) and even TT as a starting PF (assuming continued development). However, I’m not convinced any other starter is really starting caliber for an contender. I like Dion, but he’s been too eneficient for me to be willing to consider him our starter 2-3 years from now. Obviously he can (has to) develop, but that hasn’t happened yet. I don’t believe Andy (age/health) or Zeller (skill/strength/size) are starter material, and Gee doesn’t belong in… Read more »
The NUPE,
Dion’s December was a complete travesty, but his January – March were a big step forward for his efficiency. From a 21 year old rookie, he definitely showed promise. You are undoubtedly right that he needs to keep developing though.
Gee is a back-up.
It’s too early to know what Atlanta and Boston will be. If Smooth leaves ATL and they can’t add another star via free agency they might throw their hat in the ring for tank off 2014. Several franchises are going to tank their asses off next year. Ferry has a shot to build a team from the ground up. Horford would be my top hypothetical trade targets for the Cavs. If Atlanta does go into tank mode I’d rather have him than Love. Bargain contract to boot. Celtics: Garnett and Pierce are never going to have a year better than… Read more »
I like the second unit this year. I just don’t have faith in them producing in the future. Is this the best season Ellington, Speights, Livingston and Walton have had in the past three years? Probably. I just don’t like the odds of them repeating it. Ellington is the only one I REALLY want back. Then Livingston in a utility role and Speights if he opts into his last year. Walton will retire and smoke weed and eat Funions with his dad on Zuma beach this time next year I do think the Cavs could be a .500 team next… Read more »
I would like to see stats comparing our bench to other second units. My guess is our group sees more total minutes together and a much better plus-minus than other second units.
Since I’m dreaming of two, not only one, top draft picks this year, I wonder which players of our top ten you would like to see replaced.
For example, I’d like to see Livingston and Ellington stay as the second unit backcourt and get a top SF in the draft. But who would that rookie SF replace? Gee or CJ?
Dadof4 – I would like to see Livingston and Ellington part of the roster going forward. I think C.J. Miles will be picked up if the Cavs goal is to make the playoffs next season – his contact is very valuable given his production. I kinda doubt Speights is resigned but we’ll see. I think the Cavs need to draft a rim-protector, and either the SF of the future, or best player available. Either way, the players they draft need to be long and have a lot of defensive upside. I think Alonzo Gee is best suited coming off the… Read more »
I agree with Tom and others about bringing back Livingston and Ellington. Let Speights walk. I think both Gee and Miles are back…in that scenario, depending on the draft, Gee could be the 11th man. Who would the roster be:
PG – Kyrie, Livingston
Wings – Waiters, Ellington, Miles, Gee, draft pick
Front Court – TT, Varejao, Zeller, draft pick, free agent (Luke Walton, twelfth man extraordinaire!)
Or maybe Chris Grant will pull some crazy trade and everything will be turned upside-down. Or noone will be re-signed. Predicting this stuff is impossible.
Hey anyone notice the Nuggets have won 15 straight and Andre “Cavs fans wouldn’t touch him with a 39 and a half-foot (roughly his vertical) pole” Iguodala is their best player?
Btw, I have a nickname for Aaron Craft.
The Mongoose.
What we’ve seen this season is that when our young starters are healthy (minus Varejao) and we’ve got a bench of lower tier NBA players, we are about a .500 team. Add another year of development from this year’s rookies/sophomores, add new rookies (up to four! of them), resign/ sign new NBA bench players, and we’ll have a playoff caliber team if we can stay reasonably healthy. The bench was a nice story but the focus should on our young starters and adding another couple good players in the draft. Walton, Speights, Livingston, Miles were good fill-ins this year but… Read more »
Cory – Yes, KI, Dion, and TT have all developed under Scott, but the reason this team suddenly turned it on in 2013 wasn’t as much the play from the young guys as much as the emergence of the bench. If, next year, the bench doesn’t gel as it did this year the results may not be as pretty as they were during Feb. Not that I don’t think it’s possible, but I think we’ve all overrated the supposed development. There need to be HUGE strides from the starters if, on a night to night basis for an entire season,… Read more »
Props to $ for defending Scott. I get that we are frustrated and impatient but I think Scotts done his most important job thus far-Kyrie, Dion and Thompson have all developed in their short time in the league. They were playing near .500 ball in 2013 until the backcourt got banged up. The current roster without AV, KI and DW is near Bobcats bad. The depth that was added from the Memphis deal is void without the starters. He has a mish mosh roster. Next year is probably the make or break year for Scott. Expectations will rise. If the… Read more »
Cory and $, I agree that Dion and Tristan improved during their time in Cleveland, and I do credit the coaching staff for that. I am hesitant to give credit for the bench’s play though. Nate wrote his first glowing recap on the bench on the second day that Speights and Ellington were on the team. Did Coach Scott stay up all night in his hotel room, in a brilliant moment of clarity, master-minding an offensive scheme that hinged on two players whom he only slightly knew their tendencies? If so, why did the first half of the season frequently… Read more »
Props to Byron Scott for being able to take a hodgepodge of NBA players that have been collecting dust on benches and turn them into a pretty good second unit. Scott is really good at emphasizing players’ strengths and hiding their weaknesses. I’m not concerned about resigning any individual in particular. I think Ellington would be best to resign since he’s young, cheap, and has the most potential in my opinion. But, we shouldn’t make big deals to any of these bench guys. Scott has shown that as long as you give him an actual NBA bench (not D-leaguers), he… Read more »
I would keep Ellington, let Luke walk, let Speights walk.
If we resign Speights it means we’re getting rid of Andy and Zeller soon/
I don’t see Dion’s ceiling being a star in any situation, he is not athletic or skilled enough for that.
Stars are either tier 1 athletes or extremely skilled players. Dion is neither.
He can still be very good however.
I could stand to watch another season of them. It’s been fun in an otherwise dismal season. But the reality of all the contracts working out and the return on value of damaged/older players is not there.
I’m glad that Chris Grant is the one making the contract calls. I wouldn’t want to have to offer new contracts to the bench. I love the Herculoids name because it is very fitting. The show was produced for one season and I can’t see this chop suey squad of cast offs producing for more than one season. This is as good as it gets for some of them. This is probably the ceiling.