#CavsRank #2 – LeBron Raymone James
2014-03-27
“It’s fitting in my mind that LeBron James finished in second on #CavsRank. He’s the most talented and decorated player to ever play for the Cavaliers. Whether you like it or not, at some point in the future the Cavaliers will retire his number for all that he accomplished on this team. But he was never able to get to that top spot in his time here; in his surrender and retreat he not only left an incomplete legacy, but a trail of destruction that the franchise is still trying to recover from to this day.”
[Justin Rowan – Fear the Sword]
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#CavsRank Introduction and Authors
#20: Mo Williams & Nate Thurmond by Carter Rodriguez, Real Cavs Fans.
#19: Craig Ehlo by David Zavac, Fear the Sword.
#18: Lenny Wilkens by Jacob Rosen, WFNY.
#17: Bingo Smith by Scott Raab.
#16: Ron Harper by Ben Cox, WFNY.
#15: Andre Miller by Kirk Lammers, WFNY.
#14: Jim Chones by Ryan Mourton, Fear the Sword.
#13: Campy Russell by Ryan Mourton, Fear the Sword.
#12: Shawn Kemp by Robert Attenweiler, Cavs: The Blog.
#11: Hot Rod Williams by Kevin Hetrick, Cavs: The Blog.
#10: World B. Free by Scott Sargent, WFNY.
#9: Anderson Varejao by Andrew Schnitkey, WFNY.
#8: Kyrie Irving by Mallory Factor, Cavs: The Blog.
#7: Terrell Brandon by Ben Cox, WFNY.
#6: Austin Carr by Cleveland Jackson, Stepien Rules.
#5: Zydrunas Ilgauskas by Kirk Lammers, WFNY. Nate Smith, Cavs: The Blog. Tom Pestak, Cavs: The Bog.
#4: Larry Nance by Robert Attenweiler, Cavs:The Blog.
#3: Brad Daughtery by Robert Attenweiler, Cavs: The Blog.
#2: LeBron James by Justin Rowan, FearTheSword
#1: Crowned at Cavs:TheBlog Friday.
#CavsRank2014
How in the world is MARK PRICE not on this list!!!!?
Quitters can’t be #1, lol.
Guts and a flat out refusal to give up is the MOST significant prerequisite for greatness in my book. This dude gave up, and then arrogantly thumbed his nose at the team and city. If he comes back and finishes his business, he can try to be number 1 next time, bless his heart, but for right now, he’ll just have to live with the “Most Talented Cavalier” title.
What uniform do you suppose he will take into the hall of fame?
It is a decent list… and, if you were to go strictly by the number, LBJ should be on top. That he chose to leave Cleveland doesn’t matter. How he chose to leave Cleveland was stupid. But that doesn’t factor in to it much for me. While he was with the team, he was an immature player… a guy handed everything, including the ball, as everyone else stood back and watched. There was no way that LeBron could have won a title in Cleveland. He just wasn’t good enough as a team player to be able to pull it off.… Read more »
Nate, not so clear about Jim Brown. He was a bit of rough around the edges in his younger days. According to press reports there was a teenager rape trial, beating up elderly people after an auto accident, threatening to throw girls off balconies. Oh, and he left the Browns in his prime to go to LaLa land.
OTOH, LBJ has an almost squeaky clean history. Actually, he just said his dumbest thing yesterday: “I wish there was no salary cap”. (and it was Christmas every day).
Hard to disagree with the MathTeach.
It’s not about stats. Mark Price was everything to the Cavs and he stayed a Cav. Totally 100% my vote.
For all of you LeBron apologists, sure, he did some nice things while he was here – but he didn’t win anything more important than Price or Daugherty for that matter in the end. And, when it mattered, he pissed on his own. Thus, regardless of being the so-called “chosen one” – you can take #23 and shove him up Akron’s behind. Mark Price, for you youths here, was awesome – and loved playing in Cleveland and for these fans – and was, and still is very approachable by one and all. A perfect choice for #1 if you ask… Read more »
Tom, I respect your thoughts on LeBron. A lot of others share them. They’re legit. It’s a poll.
Raoul. Sorry, there’s Jim Brown, and there’s everyone else when it comes to Cleveland sports. Bob Feller is the only one who could come close to him. I’d put Omar over LeBron in the Cleveland sports pantheon, and Lou Boudreau beats him on most all-time teams. So I guess that puts Lebron 6th after Mark Price.
Monster, let go of my last post.
Tom, Don’t let the flak get you upset. Most of us really appreciate the work that all of you do. And it is hard not to get carried away when you are arguing whatever point. The LBJ situation is probably the all time “hot issue” in Cleveland sports. His time here is probably the all time best time in Cleveland sports (except maybe the first 10 years for the Browns). Three years ago, I probably would also have left him off the list. Twenty years from now, even Kojo will vote him #1. It is an example of stages of… Read more »
Love Marc Price but any list that doesn’t have Lebron as the number 1 Cavalier of all-time is fatally flawed.
And I’ll admit I came across as overly snarky after you came and said you weren’t going to defend whether your decision is right. Your phrasing came off as overly dismissive of everyone else’s opinion who disagreed with you, which is incredibly frustrating when your opinion seems to be simply “I feel how I feel about it”. I’ve already said that this was a nice way to tell the stories of some Cavalier legends, and I’ll make sure what I take away from this whole thing. And I’ll ease off the gas pedal even though we seem to see this… Read more »
Steve – a point of clarification. My comment: “I’m not going to defend whether my decision was the correct one” was meant as an olive branch. Like, I’m not trying to say I’m RIGHT, but I think you should understand my thought process. I thought that was the right approach.
Tom, you’ve written a lot of words, but they amount to little more than “I feel how I feel, and THBBBBT! at anyone who disagrees” as you give your e-high-fives on twitter. I’ve offered some critiques that are more than fair, and you really don’t respond other than sarcastic tones mocking me. You’ve made it clear that you’re going with your gut here, and I guess that’s fine given the way-too-vague criteria used for #Cavsrank, but you also seem way too defensive when people point out how much they don’t like your thought process and the criteria. Despite what Kojo… Read more »
That LeBron actually finished as high as #2 tells me more about the fanbase / blogbase feeling about him than I was aware of. I thought he had his fans (a number that seems to grow every year), but I thought that a much larger percentage despised him.
So after reading this I’d conclude that he made a lot of people pretty mad . . . but they’d take him back nonetheless.
Underdog, I felt the same way. I remember when Kevin Hetrick sent out one of the first instruction sets and commented on how LeBron would probably be 1st in a bunch and not present at all in a bunch. But LeBron was the most consistently ranked player there, so those people fretting the compromised emotional states of their all-important bloggers can rest at ease, only 10% of experts are LeBron-deniers – we’ve almost reach climate scientist agreement just 4 years after the hockey stick graph.
Tom,
I don’t know why but I think Steve is really butt hurt about something. He actually got me to write a long response, 2 of em. Normally my posts are “well, gosh Deng!” Lol.
He wants to act like the decision never happened and will not see the connection between his decision and way he left, and his ranking on this list … On a blog. I mean gosh Deng it.
Kojo – on one hand I don’t have an issue with people being upset about this. It’s sports, the POINT is to get tribal and emotional and consume the product regardless of its relative value in the grand scheme. I also understand why someone would feel this is a kinda bush league that 18 out of 20 people ranked LeBron #1 but because 2 people left him off their ballot completely, his cumulative total was #2. But people shouldn’t make false statements like “this is because of Raab” or “the creators of this blog yada yada”. That’s incorrect, lazy, and… Read more »
Tom,
My metric is simple: LeBron is the best, most productive player the Cavs have ever employed. LeBron left a smoking crater where our dreams (and the Cavaliers) were. Barring a special, stand alone category, LeBron is #2. Unreasonable?
soultoronados – extremely reasonable.
Well, Tom, I’m glad you care enough to spout your opinions on the internet, but not enough to back them up with much more than “whatever, I’ll do what I want” when critiqued. I hope that works out well for you in the rest of your life.
“Those that voted him #1 acknowledge the undeniable dominance he holds over the rest of the players on the list. Those that left him off the ballot completely acknowledge the undeniable disrespect and devastation he imparted on the fanbase/franchise/his teammates. ” The way it’s written, you make them sound fairly mutually exclusive. As if you can’t be bothered to find a net result. How does the joy that Lebron brought to you as fan compare to how upset he made you by doing what he wanted instead of what you wanted one night? The people who voted him first still… Read more »
Steve, what the heck dude? Are you trolling me. I’ve written like half a bible here on why I did what I did, I explained exactly what happened to give full disclosure, I tried to impress upon you that you need not feel compelled to feel any certain way, and I even apologized if the results don’t reflect the reality (and then explained the reality so that there wouldn’t be confusion). And now you are accusing me of giving everyone the finger and saying “yeah, so what”? Since there is literally no possible outcome where I explain how I came… Read more »
“then there really were no consequences to the Decision, a move which shattered the psyche of a region and left a trail of destruction for the franchise from which it is still struggling to emerge”
Simply – Lebron didn’t do what I wanted him to do, so “LOUD NOISES!”
Steve, without hacks like me, you’d have no concept of good blogging. So, you’re welcome.
“I’m not going to defend whether my decision was the correct one, nor am I going to lose much sleep over your accusation. In truth, I am actually glad #CavsRank is generating some buzz, even if it is at my expense.”
So there we have it. Pestak doesn’t care that his decision was incorrect, just as long you click the next link. Wonderful.
boiling it all down to that?
To me, an unintended consequence of Lebron at #2 and Price at #1 is how the discussion about Price will shift from how great his tenure with the Cavs was to how crazy it is that he beat Lebron for the #1 spot. Price’s legacy therefore gets subsumed under this angry debate. I wish Price was ranked #2 for that reason, but also because . . .let’s face it, Lebron made the CAVS an incredibly great team while he was here, more so than any other CAV ever.
Azure, that’s fair if it turns out that way. Maybe wait until the Price post airs on Monday (sorry for the delay) before dealing with that anxiety. Steve, I’m not going to try to talk you out of your current state of mind – it seems like you want to be upset and mock me, and it’s the internet, so I can’t think of a better place for you to air your grievances. I can’t, however, accept you possibly wondering whether or not LeBron actually isn’t as great as you think he is, you know, late at night when my… Read more »
Leaving LeBron off entirely is extreme, considering the heights he almost singlehandedly took this team, but no way he deserves number one (and I’m still a huge fan of his). The ranking, based on the descriptions of players seems to be about performance in a Cavs jersey, impact on the team, and impact on fans. The question of LeBron hinges on whether you think at the time of the “Decision” he was a Cavalier. If you think he was Cavalier you can’t rank him #1 since the harm he causes in that moment undoes at least some the good he… Read more »
In retrospect, I had no idea that my calculated decision to completely leave LeBron off the ballot would earn some mild contempt from my colleagues and so for that, full disclosure is most fair. I’ve seen people lambasting Raab (who ranked LeBron #1), and all the “petulant children” (we do have some younger writers, like Justin Rowan, who penned an astoundingly strong piece on LeBron yesterday and yes, ranked him #1) for the result. If this was like the Coaches Rankings for College Football, LeBron would have an (18) next to his ranking, Mark Price would have a (1), and… Read more »
soultornados – I’ve seen these charge multiple times now, that it’s understandable “completely OK” to not rank LeBron #1, but it’s not OK to leave him off the ballot entirely. The thing is, by what metric would I have found LeBron to be #2? or 3? He’s so far and away the most talented, most productive, winningest player to play for the Cavaliers. There is no debate, like there could be over who was more valuable as a player: Mark Price or Larry Nance? It’s tough, you could say Price based on Win Shares, but based on Win Shares per… Read more »
Tom, you might be my favorite writer on the blog. Your writing is intelligent and insightful. You have a healthy respect for advanced analytics AND for what your eyes see on the court. So it’s extremely disappointing to hear you allowed your personal feelings to overrule sound judgment. No matter how you feel about LeBron or this team or this franchise, there is no justification to leave LeBron off the list of greatest Cavs of all time. It’s not how YOU FEEL about LeBron or any other player. That’s a personal bias, not an objective analysis. Both this blog and… Read more »
Brian, I’m not going to defend whether my decision was the correct one, nor am I going to lose much sleep over your accusation. In truth, I am actually glad #CavsRank is generating some buzz, even if it is at my expense. I work very hard (in my opinion) for this blog and I place a premium on objectivity, analysis, and correctness. I also do this because I love the Cavs. I’m an engineer, and no one is lining up in the Cavs organization, the sports media, or the NBA at large to offer me a career. There is plenty… Read more »
This blog loses all credibility by putting LeBron number 2. Also, if you are someone who didn’t even put LeBron on your ballot, you are a complete moron. I’ve always felt that Cleveland fans intense negativity has made it harder for us to field winning teams, with their over negativity and hate towards everything. The people who would take part in this vote and not put Lebron even on the list are exactly who I am talking about. You are obviously allowing your hurt feelings to get in the way of rational discussion. You know, it’s really tough to find… Read more »
I remember the decision, and it did suck that the clearly best player in the game didn’t want to continue to play for the Cavaliers. A huge part of the negative emotions was that Lebron wasn’t going to freely give us those positive emotions anymore. A lot of that negative reaction was on us. And I keep seeing vague qualifiers about how to pick these things, which fine, then we need to make it clear that the qualifiers were much too vague to glean anything useful with this list. It was a nice vehicle to produce some narratives about some… Read more »
The “Decision” news conference and that entire scene was total BS.
But, otherwise, the move is about the same as Jim Thome leaving the Cleveland Indians. (except maybe for more money!). You don’t hear anyone bad rapping Thome, and I think they are going to build a statue of him at the park.
Raoul,
He was still voted 2nd “Greatest” Cavalier of all time, and I haven’t seen a ton of unprovoked bad mouthing.
If a similar #IndiansRank was created and a group voted Vizquel higher than Thome would it be wrong?
To me this is perfect. He put us on theap but he also madenus what we are tody which is a laughing stock. Price was phenomenal. He’s the best white PG since the ABA merger exempting maybe Nash. Its not like Price beating LBJ is a travesty. LBJ in my opinion is the GOAT but he’s substantially better now than he was here, and he quit in the playoffs.
Admins,
2 comments long as balls got comment monsters. Please save them.
Son of a B my post got comment monstered. Raoul, I’m not saying that people still feel that way but the entire city definitely did. Steve, The entire city when LeBron left felt about every negative emotion you could feel. If what you got out of my comment was that I alone felt those emotions then you need new reading comprehension. That or you’re using ‘revisionist history’ to frame my comment to fit your argument. You act like Lebrons decision wasn’t as a Cav. (Blah blah blah he was a free agent) How a player decides to leave the Cavs… Read more »
Steve, Not sure if you remember ‘The Decision’ but the entire city felt about every negative emotion you can feel. It was all because of him. If you read my post and got out of it that I alone felt that way then you need new reading comprehension. When he made the decision he was still a Cavalier. Whatever, he was a free agent blah blah. A players decision to leave The Cavs should also weigh into ‘Greatest CAVALIER of all time’ not greatest player of all time that played in Cleveland. Two different things. No one is talking about… Read more »
Kojo – If you feel anger, pain, hatred from your entertainment, you should probably find a new form of entertainment. And besides, Tom made it clear “player’s time not in a Cleveland uniform should not be considered.” It seems like we’re being fairly selective in applying that rule. And in regards to his time here, Price played 9 years, Daugherty 8, Nance 6.5. Lebron’s 7 years shouldn’t be qualified by “only”. And I’m not sure who you think was the most talented player in the game at the time. This seems like a lot of revisionist history so that we… Read more »
Personally, I am long over most of the trauma of LBJ leaving. It took a while. My girlfriend says I refused to talk about the Cavs for a month or so. But you come to realize the sad fact that the Cavs failed to put a team around him that could win. And the Cavs needed to rebuild. Now, they are finally getting exciting. If he faked an injury, that is unforgivable. Is that documented? I know we all thought so at that time. But it is hard to know who is hurt and who is not. I am not… Read more »
Steve, “Did anyone bring greater joy to Cavs fans than Lebron James?” Probably not but has anyone ever brought more pain, anger, disgust, jealousy, hatred, betrayal, and negativity to the Cavs franchise and fan base? No. No one has done more for and against the Cavs than LeBron (except MJ). To vote someone who was only a Cav for 7 years then left the franchise, fan base and city to ‘witness’ the decision is ridiculous. No way he deserves to be number 1. I wouldn’t have voted him #1 even if he was the most talented player in the game… Read more »
If I could add 3 more to this list, it would be Delonte, Tyrone Hill, and Mike Mitchell (I think, too young to have actually seen him play).
My last three spot was Brad, Mark and LeBron, but to be honest, what LeBron did to Cavs , his teammates , to Ctown and the fans is unforgettable. Betraying and faking injury and I can go on for ever. Mark was and will be Mr Cavs not because of numbers or wins and losses, He represented the Cavs with grace , class and when he was on the court he gave it all . He wasn’t gifted physically but he was mentally a tuff kid, bloody and all he was never gonna back down and ambrace his teammates and… Read more »
How much do I have to pay someone to see all of the individual ballots? Haha. I’m dying to know what guys were left off and how many guys ranked Boobie and Delonte.
True, objectivity is sometimes lacking in sports, though I think you are misrepresenting the term a bit. Making a list like this asks for a bit of rational thought, a bit of objective recollection and analysis. The same sort of objectivity we begged for when the national media would entertain the “Kobe is the better closer!” nonsense. Or how Cavs fans sighed at the “he can’t come up clutch in the big games!” Fans were pretty well devoted to Lebron. Tom says “It was explicitly stated that the only rule should be that the player’s time not in a Cleveland… Read more »
What does objectivity have to do with being a sports fan? OBJECTIVELY none of this matters at all and we should just concentrate on processing nutrients and producing offspring. Lebron would undoubtedly also come in second on a list of Cleveland sports villains. He can sit on a wiener, I don’t care how good he was, is, or will be.
As a litmus test, imagine Lebron had simply vanished without a trace after he left the Cavs. He would be the obvious consensus for greatest Cavs player no matter the metric being used. There would be no “controversy”. He was transformative. Any writer that claims they OBJECTIVELY picked otherwise is either lying or completely disconnected from reality. Ok he left, he did it in a shit way, get over it. While he was here it was amazing.
This is a joke Lebron FAR AND AWAY was the best player in Cavs history. Dnt agree with how it ended (Game 4,5,6 against boston) but that doesn’t erase the fact he took the cavs to heights never before seen by any other player by a long shot! Mark Price is a great great player but HE AINT NO LEBRON JAMES thats a FACT!!!!
“Why should I, a diehard Cleveland Cavaliers, list LeBron as the “greatest” Cavalier of all time?”
Because, simply, he was. Especially if we’re only considered time spent in Cleveland, and not what was done after he was deemed available on the free agent market. Did anyone bring greater joy to Cavs fans than Lebron James?
Tom – “channelling our inner Raab” didn’t necessarily mean that Raab was the one who left him off. It meant that we were thinking in the same vein as when he was frothing at the mouth nightly. It’s good to know that Raab finally knocked off his schtick. It’s too bad he influenced so many people in an effort to make a few bucks off a book.
@ Tom you said it best, “why should I, a diehard Cavs fan, list Bron as the “greatest” Cavalier of all time?”….born and raised in California, I’ve been a diehard Cavs fan since 1987, and this statement says it all to the people that disagree with Bron being #2.
Keep in mind, folks, that this was not a unanimous vote on any of these. A huge percentage of the group voted him at 1
Disagree on the ranking. I suppose I’m a LeBron apologist at some level. Lord knows I still can’t help rooting for him when I watch Heat games. The guy was so amazingly good for a long time. Far and away the greatest athlete I ever saw in Cleveland, though I’m too young for Jim Brown and before. Still, he really hurt us. By conspiring with his friends and picking a different city — when he could have dictated terms. By making such a big deal of it with the damn TV special. So I see the case for knocking him… Read more »
Brian – the voters here are petulant kids.
Seriously, listing Mark Price ahead of LeBron, who will go down as one of the Top 4 NBA players of all time — is petty, silly, and makes the voters look like petulant kids. Oh, you got Lebron. You got ’em good. Geez.
Steve, Brian, and Chip – the #CavsRank was about ranking the “Greatest Cavaliers” not the most talented, most productive, winningest, or most win shares per 48. It was explicitly stated that the only rule should be that the player’s time not in a Cleveland uniform should not be considered. This is why someone like Nate Thurmond, named one of the 50 Greatest and Hall of Famer, was not ranked much higher. So, my counterpoints to your sour grapes: Steve – Raab voted LeBron #1, so your “channeling your inner Raab” comment fails. Brian – No one would argue LeBron isn’t… Read more »
This is more egregious than the Irving at #8 pick. Let’s stop channeling our petty inner Raabs and realize that what Lebron did for this franchise was bigger and more important than any other player, and maybe all those other players put together.
Nate,
I had forgotten that. That is by far MB’s greatest dumbbell move. Do you think that was planned (for who knows what reason), or MB spaced out? I think that was Z’s first DNP-CD.
I love Mark Price, but no one in his right mind is ranking him above you know who.
BTW, the ending of a couple games last night might affect some rosters next year.
I still say the Cavs mismanagement with their former franchise centerpiece, Z, made LeBron realize that loyalty was just lip service. After not playing him in his career games night, and then trading him, you could see that those things really effected Z, and LeBron was paying attention.
…i guess the Price is right….
“But he was never able to get to that top spot in his time here; in his surrender and retreat he not only left an incomplete legacy, but a trail of destruction that the franchise is still trying to recover from to this day” – well said – particularly regarding the surrender, retreat, and trail of destruction. While I agree, it is likely some day his # gets retired, I hope it doesn’t – let it happen down in fake-ville for him – aka Miami – after all, as we’ve heard so often, he’s not from Cleveland, he’s from Akron… Read more »
Yeah but they played the Spurs closely in the 2 games in Cleveland. Just couldn’t stop Ginobili/Parker/Duncan.
This was back when Ginobili was a 6th man and had better efficiency than Kobe.
The biggest “hindsight is a b**ch” of the LeBron era was the Spurs Finals series. LeBron and the Cavs seemed just happy to be there, and all had an “our time will come” vibe about them. You have to play every finals like it’s your last.