The Point Four-ward: Size Matters Edition
2014-07-04Four points I’m thinking about the Cleveland Cavaliers…
1.) In his post-draft press conference last Thursday, David Griffin re-opened a hole on the Cavaliers’ roster that fans thought had finally and mercifully been plugged. Andrew Wiggins, he said, would find his most success as “a big two-guard.” So, while admitting that Wiggins would play both shooting guard and small forward, it’s clear that Griffin (and, presumably, head coach, David Blatt, as well) envision an eventual starting back court of 6-2 Kyrie Irving and the 6-8 Wiggins. That’s right, Cavs fans, just when you thought the team was finally running in the general direction of a complete roster, they land their collective sneakers — squish, squish — right back into the steaming pile that has been their small forward position for the last few years.
The Cavs biggest non-Irving free agency news — the team’s quick cup of coffee with Gordon Hayward on Wednesday — seems to back up the idea that their small forward problems were not solved by adding Wiggins. Initially, this seemed like a strong sign the team would re-sign C.J. Miles, who would provide the outside shooting that both Griffin and Blatt covet. But Miles is now on his way to help in yet another off-season attempt at finding the Pacers a bench, giving the Cavs no natural small forward on their roster. 6-7 Sergey Karasev is alternately listed as a guard or a small forward, newly drafted swingman, Joe Harris, is 6-6 and … oh, yeah, don’t forget about 6-7 Scotty Hobson who, like Karasev could bounce between positions if he does not first bounce off to another team.
So, why let Miles walk when his skill set clearly checks off one of Griffin’s credo of “bigger, tougher, smarter, fit and shoot better?” Miles had trouble staying healthy last year, which probably fed into the decision somewhat. But, more than that, while Miles was, in fact, one of the Cavs better shooters, he was also listed at just 6-6. So, planting Wiggins at the two (eventually) and flirting with the 6-8 Hayward, a good shooter (and under-rated passer at his position) as an option at the three, Griffin seems to be saying, “Hey, we can actually go out and get some players who can do multiple things well” (that is assuming that you can say something like “so-and-so does tall well”…)
2.) Further, this suggests that we’ll see a whole lot less of 2013-14’s Lilliputian line-up of Irving, Jarrett Jack and Dion Waiters (if at all) because the team will (attempt to) be built so that such radical small-ball (which saw the 6-4 Waiters on the opposing team’s small forward) shouldn’t represent the team’s strongest line-up. Jack, in fact, could be on his way out, as rumors of a deal to the Nets for Waiters’ evil twin, Marcus Thornton, continue to fit and start.
Now, this isn’t to say, that Griffin’s just going to pull the trigger on the tallest person available, but if your best combos keep someone 6-6 or above at the three, at least the Cavs won’t be making their own tasks more difficult on the defensive end by constantly giving up inches of height and length.
3.) Where does this leave Waiters? I joked after Griffin made the comment about Wiggins being a guard that “our Dion watch starts now.” Since being drafted by the Cavaliers, Waiters has had an uneasy relationship with the sixth man role that made him so effective at Syracuse. He has made clear that he prefers to start — though he proved by the end of last year that he could be an effective starter or reserve for this team. The fact of the matter for Waiters, though, is that his GM just drafted a guy number one overall who he sees playing Waiters’s position long-term. So, either a.) this same GM is also looking at Waiters as a key reserve long-term or b.) this same GM sees Waiters’s skills as too redundant with Irving, he of the five-year $90 million extension, and will consider moving Waiters if he sees the right deal out there for the making.
In the short term, though, it does Waiters and Griffin best to stand pat. Because of the team’s rocky 2013-14 campaign — and Waiters infamous rage against “buddy ball” — public perception of the guard seems not to have caught up with what I’d argue his value should be and might yet become. Waiters doesn’t need to be a max player to get some of the big money that’s being thrown around for perimeter guys these days. He needs to continue to get more consistent with his shot, bring more consistent focus to the defensive end and figure out how to finish better at the rim. If that happens, he will get paid and he’ll absolutely deserve it. But dealing Waiters now might be selling him a bit too low. Likely, Griffin agrees, but he hasn’t really come out one way or the other on his feelings about Waiters.
If the season were to start tomorrow, Waiters would start next to Irving. Wiggins would start “out of position” at the three and move over to the two when Waiters or Irving rests. Waiters would continue to be the second unit’s primary ball handler next to Matthew Dellavedova (unless he is not re-signed … at which point Cavs fans will swallow their collective tongue), giving the Cavs a fairly flexible four-guard rotation. Whether that’s the right mix or not will be up to Griffin and Blatt (and… you know, our eyes) to decide.
But, of course, it’s still really early in what has already been a nuttso offseason. So, a lot can change. Adding an established vet at the three would likely push Wiggins to the bench allowing him develop at a speed slightly less than warp.
4.) With all of this attention to the size of the backcourt, what about the Cavs’ front court? It’s not exactly gargantuan either, isn’t it? Incumbent power forward, Tristan Thompson, is just a shade under 6-9 in shoes and sports a respectable 7-1 wingspan. His likely backup next season, Anthony Bennett, is 6-8, but makes up for some of that with a 7-2 wingspan. The teams center tandem (depending on what happens with Spencer Hawes in free agency) is 6-10 Anderson Varejao and 7-0 Tyler Zeller. So, the team’s front line isn’t awful when it comes to size. It’s just been awful (Varejao excluded) when it comes to shooting and defending the rim. But Griffin did take a flier in the second round on 6-11 face-up power forward, Dwight Powell, in the trade that sent Alonzo Gee to New Orleans. So, throughout the roster, the new regime is searching for ways to get better size and length at every position. All the attention has been on the wings, so far, but it will be interesting to see how the bigs will be utilized and if Bennett’s greater length (and reduced girth … finally) does anything to push Thompson from the starter’s spot.
CtB enthusiasts: Post your guesses on the likelihood of LeBron coming back!
Next week either Scott and the NaySayers (good name for a punk band!) will be able to say “told you so!”, — OR — NS…S, Raoul, and the YeaSayers will be able to say, “HaHa, I know it all along!”.
Then we can all get together at a game next year, and the losers can buy a beer for the winners! (hope they got PBR)
I’d be happy to be wrong. It’s kind of all or nothing if we seriously think the choices are Lebron or an Ariza/Frye combo (the latter, btw, is a horrible idea – both ariza and Frye are wildly over-rated).
The stories about Rich Paul are likely true – I recall that he tried to get Lebron to re-sign with the Cavs last time – or at least was opposed to The Decision – and lost out. Let’s hope he’s more influential this time around.
I’m pegging 80% LeBron returns. 50% with Allen. 5% on Bosh. I think Bosh would like to go home too. I could see DWade going into retirement or home and eventually getting a role similar to Z’s. LeBron knows this is his best chance at a title. He knows his friends are fading, and the Superfriends era might see a curtain call soon. He cares about his legacy. If the path to home is broken, why not fix it? What would a championship mean for Cleveland? Everything. We aren’t going to get it in the next 5 years unless we… Read more »
Broussard tweeting that he believes we’re the frontrunner now.
Next Cleveland legend: The afternoon Ilgauskas flew south:
http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2014/07/zydrunas_ilgauskas_flies_to_sou.html#incart_2box
What are the chances James, Bosh, and Allen fly back with him?
The chances are none. zero. zip. If James does decide t return, he’ll so so alone. More likely, James will sit down with Riley in a couple of days and agree to a two-year max deal with a player option for Y2. He’ll let Riley figure out the rest. Once Riley has James on board, Bosh and Wade will sign and Riley will land a free agent or two. Cleveland’s best hope for James’ return is to develop it’s young core and keep cap space availabe for next summer. I have to think that James will bolt if the Heat… Read more »
I’m going with 60% on James, 40% on James and Allen, and 20% on all three.
What sucks the most is that the only people not on the trade block are Kyrie (which yeah) but also Tristan and Andy, which are the first two I would try to trade. I think that’s because of LeBron but still.
@kojo – why are you so eager to trade Varejao? He was relatively healthy last year. He’s probably our best true big – he plays defense, roubounds like crazy and has a solid mid-range shot. He’s aloso one of the few veterans on the roster. At this point, I’d like to keep Varejao regardless of Lebron.
What do you expect to get for Varejao in a trade?
As for TT – I don’t think he has a very high trade value. Somehting akin to Marvin Williams.
Until Lebron James meets with the Cavs in person we shouldn’t believe the hype. Lebron’s dilemma is that he sees no clear path to a championship in 2014-15. If he returns to the Heat, he may well make the finals and suffer another finals loss because they are having a hard time re-tooling with anything better than vets on the downside playing for minimum contracts. Even if the big three rework their contracts, chances are that the best they’ll do is add a role player like Jameer Nelson or Trevor Ariza. If Lebron goes to the best roster with a… Read more »
That is an easy decision for a couple reasons. 1. It is a safe assumption he will not want to change teams each year. The Cavs are the only team with a long window. 2. Why do you think the Cavs are not ready to compete? If LeBron joins the current crew of Cavs, they are obviously the team to beat in the East. Who do you think would be favored to beat them? Not Miami or NY, for sure. Maybe the Hawks or Pacers. There might be a dark horse team that gets good, maybe Phily or Toronto. 3.… Read more »
I wish it were that simple – believe me, I’d love to have Lebron back. But it’s not so clear cut: 1. None of the Cavs core players beside Varejao have playoff experience (I’m not counting J. Jack because we’re trying to dump him for cap space). 2. We don’t know what to expect from Wiggins and Bennett. Rookies almost never make an impact on good teams – especially when they are 19 year old layers with only a year of college ball under their belts. Even if Bennett and Wiggins have all-star talent, it will likely take 2-3 years… Read more »
You are trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
1. You think Bennett and Wiggins will both be busts? Why? Very unlikely.
2. Without ANY more player movement, the Cavs should be in the top four in the East this year.
Interesting note: if the Cats get LBJ, the only untradeables are TT, Andy, and Kyrie: TT and Andy are LeBron’s boys.
TT as in Tristan Thompson? How did that bricklayer become one of Lebron’s boys?
They’ve been close for years. TT is also represented by Rich Paul.
If Lebron actually signs….then I think TT becomes a lot more valuable to the team as the hustle guy/garbage man. He’d be the Charles Oakley of the lineup. Defenses would have no choice but to leave him open and unchecked.
If Atlanta signs Greg Monroe and Detroit doesn’t match Al Horford could be on the market real fast. That’s a post player with shooting ability that Griffin could probably get without having to give up Wiggins.
I don’t think they should go after any large salaries other than Lebron. Love or Horford with Kyrie and Lebron leaves no room for anyone. Gilbert is willing to pay extra but it could quickly reach a hundred million extra. A lesser star like Wiggins with Dion making 7 mil each is a much better value than Love making 17 and hurt 20 games every year.
Andy should be on a 25 minute count each game and you don’t know what you’re going to get out of Bennett, Thompson and Zeller. They need a big they can count on for production. They don’t have one at the moment. Besides, t’s not our money. It’s Dan Gilbert’s. He paid Shaq’s corpse $20 million to guard Dwight Howard a playoff series that never happened. He paid $16 million to get the 8th best lottery odds. He’s willing to spend. I just can’t see Lebron coming here unless they get a second All-Star caliber veteran. Gilbert is going to… Read more »
if it is a sign and trade—-who are the players involved ??
supposedly Jamal Crawford …
ESPN says Jared Dudley and maybe Reggie Bullock…
If the reports are true that the Cavs want to dump Jack with a draft pick for cap space, they probably won’t do a S&T for Hawes.
Correct. And to expand, if the Cavs are going to “help” the Clippers (and that’s a big IF), it won’t happen until the dust settles on free agency.
Just noticed the Hawes deal, Barrett. I am in love with that deal. We don’t have to make a choice about him (though it seemed likely we weren’t THAT interested in him…but it’s nice he’s off the table. He did fun things in the game, but he also was probably a net minus as a roster spot for the minutes he played.
I really can’t believe they got him for that cheap. I guess the contract inflation this year isn’t as bad as people expected.
I’m very surprised we wouldn’t have offered $7M per, though. We’re thin at C and he was a nice piece.
We are very thin at C. I think it was Lebron influenced. His was a nice chunk of change NOT to have to offer someone before Lebron makes his choice. I’m sure $7M per would have snagged him, but us not even trying says one of two things to me: Blatt didn’t appreciate him much, or the talks with Lebron’s agent were more serious than token.
They can’t do it unless it’s a sign and trade, so we can just wait.
BR says Hawes signing is for mid-level exception slot. So, no need for sign-and-trade. No idea if this is legal…
Exactly, Scotch. Hawes has a nice skill-set, but he should be getting Matt Bonner type minutes, not heavy starter minutes. A team can hide his atrocious defense for 20 minutes a game, but not for 35 plus. I am absolutely thrilled.
I’m okay with them letting Hawes go. He’s perfect for the Clippers to mask some of Jordan’s shortcomings, but he’s not a starting caliber center.
He will definitely be back. He wouldn’t send a commissary to Cleveland for the “redemption” press only to not take us seriously. He wouldn’t do that. He just wouldn’t. …would he? Honestly, that seems out of character for him at this point. He has never seemed more into the spotlight than the people who surround him or the people who point it at him. He has always seemed like an honest person with some blind spots about how things will come off, rather than a calculating, cold hearted media hog. All I know is he does not want to take… Read more »
Hawes to the clips.. 4 yrs 23mill.
Wow, that’s a pretty good deal for the Clips, probably about what he’s worth. I thought he was going to get overpaid. He could have got more, but I guess he wants to play for a contender.
They are only gonna do it if we do a sign and trade though.
I’ve tried to keep myself from believing LeBron might actually come back. I can’t do it anymore. I’m a believer.
welcome. It sucks though.
I think of LeBron returning and I smile remembering how it was back in the 60s when we Browns fans thought about a return of Jim Brown. Never happened. Well, other than those sightings of Brown on the sidelines wearing that goofy multicolored beanie.
http://manginphotography.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/BMANGIN181.jpg
Just a quick reminder for all the folks who think Mia is still a championship contender: they lost to the Spurs by a far greater margin (per game AND overall) than did LBJ’s ’07 Cavs. LBJ bolted then, so it seems reasonable to think he is at least giving serious consideration to bolting again…
I hate to be in Pat Riley’s shoe right now. He is running around and asking every one for mental help, he told Haslem to opted out and then Wade and Bosh but still not enough. LBJ can take you to finals but he needs help and there are not much help out there. Raptors offered their talented guard 12 Mill and he took it, Who else Pat is going to go after Pau G is not going to take a mini deal while he can get a lot more money from somebody else. Pat should be great full for… Read more »
If the Cavs add a small forward vet, they’d probably push Dion to the bench and try to make him feel like the second unit is all his. Then Wiggins would start at the two and possibly sit the end of games to allow Dion back in. No way Wiggins doesn’t start, Blatt has to know how important it is to just get him playing time.
Wiggin’s isn’t ready, he can’t really shoot or dribble. I’m sorry have to play him off the bench. What rookie just comes in and starts for a supposed playoff team? That almost never happens.
If you’re drafting #1 picks to be bench players…
Wiggins can only get better one way. The talent is there. Go out and learn, kid!
That works for learning the game but the kid can learn to dribble.and shoot in the gym
I can’t help but think its another sham free agency tour by these guys. The things being leaked are way too perfect to actually believe this is an honest negotiation with any team. I thought this anyways but it cinched it for me when media reports and Broussard started reporting that when Wade, Bosh and James had their secretive meeting with each other, that they left it saying that Lebron was going his own way. If the 3 all opted out at the same time, it would be too convenient. So James opts out first, and then the other two… Read more »
Rick that definitely seems like a plausible scenario. On the other hand, it could be LeBron doing his own thing and everyone else on Miami trying to stay in the running (collusion minus one). From the outside we may never know the difference. Whichever, the way LeBron stays in Miami is that Bosh and Wade take pay cuts, LeBron gets the max deal, and they still have some left over for upgrading their role players. I think it comes down to GM LeBron’s sense of what can win. I’d be worried if I was Miami because Wade seems to have… Read more »
I don’t know if what is being reported about Lebron is way off base. If they have a private deal then having anything leaked about Lebron possibly wanting out only hurts them because it will dissuade free agents from signing until Lebron recommits (Miami may be in the same dilemma as Cleveland was in 2010). I think that Lebron may have said he will stay if they improve the team without asking him to sacrifice again. He is pissed at Miami for amnesting Miller and then not using all of its mid-level exemption. He feels that Miami already got a… Read more »
Collusion? Kirilenko taking 6.5 over 2 years to play for a shady russian billionaire stinks of collusion. 4 teammates giving up a bit of money trying to make their own team better? Not so much. If Kyrie had accepted a deal for 10 million a year and CJ had signed for 2 million a year, would that make the Cavs “shady, corrupt, and full of colluding interests”? Free agents choosing to play together (and/or take less money) really sucks for the teams that lost them and the teams that built their roster so they could get a shot at those… Read more »
Since they didn’t do that, yes it would.
Yes, Kirilenko and his deal was shady. One player who was already a free agent. Joe Smith back in the day was shady. MN got caught and reprimanded. No doubt there were other such one-off examples here and there. This is a whole organization working with multiple players to continue their fraud game. Does anyone honestly think these players are giving back money they are owed out of the goodness of their hearts? And giving it back to a billionaire at that? There was a piece the other day on ESPN about the value of Lebron James to the Heat… Read more »
“You’re not being played”
Man, it’s WE.
Ha, I might’ve said “we” if I was falling for it too. Last time I expected Lebron to leave and wouldn’t have blame him if he did. But what everyone who’s not a Cleveland fan don’t understand is the WAY he left. Just be a normal FA and go about it normally, He turned it into a spectacle and a big giant FU to us. Then I read and remembered all the things he did during the year, from changing his number and giving a lame reason for it, meeting with Riley during the season and calling it just a… Read more »
Finally, a voice of reason. Thanks Rick.
If the Lebron were to come back to Cavs, they could easily put together a better deal than anything Minnesota has been offered to date for Love by including Wiggins. They might also be able to do a deal that did not include Wiggins if they were creative. I think that the Cavs have had discussions with Minnesota about Love and have an idea of Minnesota is looking for in a deal.
No to trading Wiggins, he has potential to be Tmac2.0, you don’t trade that kind of talent especially, when we’re in Ohio!
In addition to getting assets, Minnesota wants to dump Martin’s 3 year contract for which they are on the hook for over $20 million. If the Cavs trade Jack for Thorton (1 year contract of $8 million)and then include Thorton in a deal for Love and Martin, Minnesota would be effectively exchanging Martin for Thorton and reducing its commitment by over $12 million. The Cavs could then give Minnesota Dion, their choice of TT or Bennett (or both if that would do the deal), their choice of Karasov or Zeller plus 2 first round picks their own 2015 pick and… Read more »
Things are looking up for the Cavs. Why do you want to give it away to Minnesota?
Because Love is the best power forward in basketball and would fit very well. If we start Wiggins we need a 4 who can space the floornsince Wiggins shooting will not be respected and u have to have 3 shooters on the floor in todays NBA.
Although I keep telling myself that LeBron will probably go back to Miami, I think I’m doing this more out of not wanting to get my hopes up only to see them get crushed. If you look at the realistic fits Miami are possibly the worst one. An ageing Wade, a slightly slower aging Bosh and no cap room to sign anyone of interest. If Miami were serious about resigning LeBron they should refuse to resign Wade. Obviously from a PR stand point it looks terrible and perhaps LeBron would be angry at them screwing over his mate but the… Read more »
LOL, I swear I was going to post something just like this~
James,
the reason why I haven’t been so pissed for the past 4 years is because since he left I have had dreams of him coming back and have thought that way since he left. Talk about being crushed. I’ve come to the mindset of ‘F it.’ If it happens awesome and if it doesn’t we are sitting in a good position for the future.
I’ve tried not commenting becuase I don’t want to unlock the darkness of my mind where ‘LeBron returning’ currently resides.
“Of course, when he resigns with Miami this weekend I’m gonna look at this comment and hate myself for ever dreaming…”
This is why I am afaid of posting anything optimistic. Thanks for sharng.
Why is Griffin so set on having Wiggins at the two? Is it just that he wants a gigantic line-up? He wouldn’t be a short 3 and he can defend either position.
I agree. I think we may be over interpreting Griffs comment about Wiggins as a 2. Griff has also said numerous time he loves guys that can play multiple positions, as it allows for lineup creativity. I don’t think they view Wiggins as a pure 2 and don’t think they will use him as such.
It’s because Wiggins is skinny, if he fills out then he’s a SF, if he doesn’t he’s a SG.
Maybe this comment was directed toward our free agency push at SF. So guys like Hayward, Parsons, and LBJ know they’d fit right in as starters.
Griffin is incredibly smart with semantics and strategic comments. I don’t think it’s much deeper than that.
One thing to note about LBJ that is in our favor -we are the only team in the East that had a meeting with him (excluding Miami of course). Staying East makes his life easier.
Miami is still my prediction, but I think Cavs are in this thing for realz.
Not until our owner says sorry to him in open public. Lebron with his ego, would never come back to the Cavs as he’d look like he was begging for redemption. I loved Lebron, I miss the old days when the Cavs were always nationally televised, when espn and nba analysts were always talking about the Cavs… I really hope next year will be the year, we finally get back into the ring hunt.
So you think that LeBron just added the Cavs to his list of final 4-5 teams for fun? Why are we in the final group? I think the Gilbert stuff is overblown. Both LBJ and Gilbert know they handled the Decision very poorly. And I am sure they both have acknowledge that to each other. If LBJ likes our roster, he would come back.
I would be astounded if LeBron gives a hoot about the letter, or even remembers. There are two other big things working in favor of Cavs for LeBron: 1. Changing teams is not easy, particularly for worldwide image. Thus it makes sense to find a place where he can win for a long time. The Cavs have BY FAR the best young talent of any team. 2. LeBron makes most of his money due to popularity and image. The botched “Decision” fiasco cost him big time. Moving anywhere now will cause a smaller hit to his image, but not zero.… Read more »
Well, I don’t know about Gilbert and Lebron’s situation. But in my opinion, Lebron likes to toy with the media and stir up discussions, sorry for being so pessimistic towards the matter, but every time I see Lebron, I remind myself of how he toyed with us and eventually announced he was taking his talents elsewhere. This whole free agency and meeting with the Cavs is a smokescreen, maybe he just wants to get some attention from the media or maybe get leverage on Riley before he returns to the Heat… No offense Hot Sauce, but I really don’t see… Read more »
No. That is a fair perspective. I totally understand your skepticism. Lebron may very well be just messing with people and enjoying the spotlight. But for some reason I still believe that he has a special connection to us, and that he values it. We’ll know soon.
Hot Sauce I hope so too!(fingers crossed)
Wasn’t Lebron a point guard his first year? I still think Lebron is coming back. South Beach is where you go for a vacation and the baby girl is another reason to go back home. He will want his boys playing at St. V and he will want to watch them. Our window to sign anyone to a big contract ends after this year and he knows it so just maybe we get lucky this year.
Don’t forget the big expiring contract they picked up in the Gee deal. It is too good to believe: Low cost for one year, then it balloons to a huge size (due to some amnesty rules).
“The Cavs biggest non-Irving free agency news — the team’s quick cup of coffee with Gordon Hayward on Wednesday” The fact that we are one of 4 teams granted a meeting with the best player in the world’s agent is bigger news. I think I understand why a lot Cavs fan refuse to write about LeBron, but the only thing that should matter to this team right now is sorting out LeBron. And, thankfully, I think it is. The team has been very quiet for a reason. I don’t think the Cavs are going to add any salary until LBJ… Read more »