The Point Four-ward: Love and Loveless Edition
2014-07-24Four points I’m thinking about the Cleveland Cavaliers…
1.) There’s a reason that the two sides of the Kevin Love/Andrew Wiggins debate are so equally passionate about the other side being horribly misguided. This is not necessarily an argument about the personnel moves made by a basketball team so much as it is a larger struggle between Reason and Imagination. Love, supporters of the trade that would send Minnesota a package headlined by the Cavs’ recent number one pick say, immediately makes this Cavs team a contender (at least in the East) and, still only 25, would keep the Cavs championship window open well through LeBron’s prime, the new extension on Kyrie Irving’s contract, as well as whatever new contract the Cavs cadre (Lake Erie’s new answer to the Miami mafia) convinces him is worth the signature either prior to or just after the 2014-15 season.
They are, of course, entirely right. If the only thing we can be sure of in professional sports is what we already know, then Love is a no-brainer. Whenever you have the assets to nab a top-12 player who has yet to enter his prime (which is really the scariest thought here) while still keeping the middle of your batting order together, you do it. You do not think about Anthony Bennett, reason says. You do not think about the type of player Andrew Wiggins might develop into.
Except thinking about the type of player Andre Wiggins might develop into is exactly what one does with a head already packed full with too much sports detritus, much of it now out of date and worth about as much as a Michael Olowokandi rookie card. Wiggins offers that spark to a Cavs fan’s imagination: that talent to watch blossom while wearing wine and gold; to watch explode through space with an athleticism that seems such a clear distillation of what is most exciting about watching professional basketball. Even Bill Simmons, who has long lauded his own sports common sense (Celtics notwithstanding), has called for the Cavs to give us even half a year of seeing what a LeBron/Wiggins team might look like before making the trade that makes the team make more sense. Let us have our look into what we imagine the future might look like even if what the future actually will be might be the better choice. Let us see two amazing NBA wing athletes (who would double as their team’s best rim protectors) turn opposing passing lanes into a human version of Whack-a-Mole, appearing as if from nowhere to change out dimes into pennies from heaven. Just give us a taste of the candy; we promise we’ll finish our boneless/skinless and our broccoli all in due measure.
But, of course, the league doesn’t operate like that. This is the NBA. This is serious business. And so the Cavaliers pursuit of acquiring just the right assets to land Love continues on.
2.) I wondered during Summer League if Carrick Felix had much of a future with this team. He was brought in by the Grant/Brown regime as a long wing defender whose shot was capable enough that he might be an adequate 3-and-D guy down the line. But with David Griffin stressing shooting so much, Felix didn’t seem quite knock-down enough to survive the ever-crowding roster. He had some moments in summer league, but he’s really a hustle guy who has not yet developed enough of a shot to make sense on this team. I’ll always be a Felix supporter after I got a chance to chat with him at summer league last year and I hope he finds a fit somewhere in the league.
3.) Tuesday’s trade that brought the non-guaranteed contracts of John Lucas III, Erik Murphy and Malcolm Thomas to the Cavs in exchange for Felix and a future second rounder is a clear indication that Griffin is putting foot to pedal on trying to trade for Love. But it’s far from meaning that the trade is a lock.
Remember, Griffin pulled the trigger on the deal that sent Jarrett Jack to the Nets well in advance of knowing that Northeast Ohio would be the winner of LeBron Lotto 2014. He still moved Jack, though, believing that getting out from under Jack’s contract would increase the team’s ability to make other moves to improve the team had the best player in the world not agreed to play on the roster he’s tasked with constructing.
Griffin has been incredibly proactive in making deals to put the team in just the right position to do what he wants to do. Imagine if the Chicago Bulls had moved enough salary around at the start of free agency to offer Carmelo Anthony a Max deal. Do you think that may have shown Anthony a level of seriousness in him that even the Knicks hadn’t shown? It would have, at the very least, been a hell of a bluff. And it may have been bluff enough to tip the scales Chicago’s way.
These are the type of little deals Griffin has been making because he knows even if LeBron falls through or Love falls through he’s given the team assets to immediately get things done. Eventually, one runs out of extra first or second round picks to sweeten the deal but, so long as Griffin is gambling with Chris Grant’s house money, these are moves he is wise to make.
In the short term — and, make no mistake, the short term is now the Cavs dominant term — non-guaranteed deals will always be of more immediate value to another team than a second round pick who wouldn’t have seen his way north of Canton for the Cavs this year.
4.) Now Sam Amico is reporting that the Philadelphia 76ers are interested in helping to “facilitate” a Love trade and covet Dion Waiters in return.
[Sigh]
If the Cavs trade Wiggins AND Waiters, they immediately become very suspect on the wing with their best option suddenly being begging Minnesota to include Kevin Martin’s bad contract in the deal (which, of course, they absolutely want to). Otherwise, you’re rolling out Mike Miller, James Jones, Ray Allen, Anthony Parker, Reggie Miller and Rick Barry at the two.
It will be interesting to see at what point in this deal-making process the Cavs channel their inner Popeye and say “I can’t stands no more!”
Seems the talk has died down but decision time approaches. Wiggins and Bennett have both been showing so much ability and progress in the summer league. San Antonio has shown that having a big three is no longer the answer. You need at least a really good, well oiled 7+ to make it all the way and that calls for oustanding playing at both ends. To expect Cleveland to go all the way in year 1 of LBJ’s return is unrealistic. When we look beyond year 1, keeping Wiggins and Bennett and the #1 draft pick from next year makes… Read more »
I have no problem with Love, the problem is with overpaying for him. Everyone on the “give up the farm for Love” bus seems to forget which team is going to lose at the end of the season if there is no trade.
The right deal is AB + several firsts + players to be cut to make it work. Just sit and wait for it. All the other teams are not going to overpay for one year.
So a lot of people are saying that we are overestimating Andrew Wiggins’ potential. Just to play Devil’s advocate, is it possible we are overestimating Kevin Love? Why are we attracted to him: he spaces the floor, he can score, he’s a good rebounder,… and he can pass (y’all wanna win, put boobie in). BUT, do his skills translate to our team? I think his ability to space the floor and hit threes does, as does his passing ability. His scoring will obviously drop dramatically being the third option on a team, and his rebounding will plummet more on a… Read more »
I’m on #TeamWiggins, but I think Love does bring a lot to the table. First, his shooting and passing will allow Lebron to play more in the post where, by the way, he is the most devastating player in the NBA. Love’s outlet passing will enable more fast breaks – again this plays to Lebron’s strengths and preferences (to run). Love’s ability as a scorer is extremely helpful to Lebron – more so that Kyrie’s. Here’s something to consider – would the Cavs be better off dealing Kyrie instead of Wiggins? What if we could get Love for Kyrie and… Read more »
“He spacs the floor, he can score, he can rebound, he can pass….but do those skills translate?”
You’re right. Teams in the NBA don’t need all that to win. They just need people who can dunk. I think Jamario Moon is still available…
The argument there is chiefly that I don’t think his “elite” rebounding numbers translate to a team that will make more shots and already has some very good rebounders. His scoring numbers will likewise decrease. Additionally, he doesn’t play good defense. And if I wanted a dunker, why not go with Christian Eyenga? SKYenga!!!
He is primarily a defensive rebounder. The main concern if one is worried about his rebounding stats is if he and Andy were in the game for a lot of minutes together because they ae both elite rebounders.
Generally, I agree with what you said, except for I think that Love would end up being the 2nd leading scorer on this team, and on many nights be 1st. Kyrie will be able to ge back to being a pass first type of player. That will be taught to him by Lebron. He is an excellent distributor of the ball. He is after all our point gaurd. The floor would be like a grand buffet for him…more space…less double teaming on him…and when necessary, of course can get his own shot. And I really don’t believe Love’s stats will… Read more »
I agree that Love is better than Bosh…Bosh was not known for the things that he changed to compliment in Miami (by the way when Bosh was in Toronto he never won a playoff series in the Eastern Conference)…Kevin Love is that…spaces the floor but can rebound a hell of a lot better. Also in the NBA paint defense has a lot to do with your guards containing the ball (Rubio/Barrea/Martin) if the guards can’t contain the ball the big man is going to have trouble (fouls or paint points). I think that trading Bennett and Wiggins and a first… Read more »
Now that Wiggins is officially signed, I hope we all can collectively take a sigh of relief. I am still torn between which side to take on the Love/Wiggins + pieces debate, but at the very least, it gives Cavs management some more time to rethink how much we are willing to part ways with. About the potential Ray Allen signing, it looks like we are going to be playing a lot of small ball this season. Given the current roster, there would be a log jam at SG/SF and LeBron would see a lot of time at the 4.… Read more »
I’m much more worried about the Bulls.
We know how great Lebron is – it will be fascinating to see how Kyrie and Dion play. Let’s see how talented they really are when they have to play off the ball sometimes and when they have open shots. I hope the Cavs aren’t planning on playing Miller and Jones a lot of minutes. Same goes for Ray Allen (if he decides to sign with the Cavs) – I love Allen’s professionalism and fearlessness, but I don’t want him playing more than 15 minutes a game. The Bulls are going to be a really good team if Rose and… Read more »
I think we need an equation for trade value. There’s a lot of variables to consider, but maybe something like: C = Years of Guaranteed control P = Total price of contract/ 1,000,000 W = Average projected win total during years of guaranteed control I = 1 – ([0.5 * % of games missed due to “fluke” injury over past 3 years] + % of games missed due to degenerative injury over the past three years) T = Total trade value So: T = C/P * (0.9 + [C/10]) * W * I Or something like that. So if we’re… Read more »
But you aren’t just simply trading for one year of Love. You’re trading for that year, and his bird rights and the ability to pay him more than anyone else next summer. You have a certain expectation (a fairly high one I’d say) of having more than one year of Love. Similarly, you’d have an expectation of more than four years of Wiggins.
See my second to last paragraph. Even if you project Love out to five years, his value is less than Wiggins using my brand new ridiculous formula…
Well, I’m unable to recreate your results from the same formula, so, I’m not sure where it’s breaking down. But most notably, we aren’t looking to maximize our wins per dollar ratio. We’re looking to maximize our wins. Period.
But, with a limited number of dollars to spend, you do want to get the maximum amount of wins per dollar. That’s the point. Yes, I know we can go over the cap with trades and bird rights and whatnots, I get that. But the basic formula is still roughly the same, despite that: get your wins as efficiently as possible, and thus you can afford more of them. I realize you can only play so many players and there are only so many minutes to spread among your “win earners.” But we have more than enough minutes for all… Read more »
As to being unable to replicate my results, I’m not sure why. I may have formatted something wrong, but I’m not sure where that would be.
Found the problem. Should be:
T (KLove) = 1/15.7 * (0.9+1/10) * 14.3 * .825 = ~.75
and:
T (Wiggins) = 4/30 * (0.9+4/10) * 6.83 * .95 = ~1.12
I think this works better with SWAgR than win shares, but that’s harder to find, sadly.
It would be nice to at least get a look at Wiggins before dealing him – agree with Bill Simmons there. But let’s be clear: If you can nab a top 12 NBA player without giving up 1 or more of the same, you probably have to do it! And maybe you’ll have to do it before the ideal time. Ideal timing would be after watching the kid play a couple of months of NBA games….but I would not risk losing the opportunity. I also think Love is being underrated by many on this thread. Sure, he’s not a shot… Read more »
Look, I know very few of you trust anything Pelton writes cuz he uses numbers and other scary concepts, but he wrote a nice article explaining why Love is not thehorrible defender so many claim. Or rather, he found very little evidence for it.
Lot of group-think going on with both Love and Wiggins…
And his opinion of Wiggins isn’t as exciting as many Cavs fans hope either.
tom and damon thank you for the ( SHOUTS ON MY CAPS )—–just got done mowing the lawn where I do most ( and accordinf to my wife ) my only thinking/ reflecting—we bloggers/ cavs fans are a ” hearty / enduring ” bunch—look at what we have persevered thru the last 4months ( not to mention the last 4 yrs )—are we going to trade/ resign kyrie—–who are we going to draft at the 9th spot—hooray we won the lottery—who are we going to draft at # 1—-oh no embiid has injuries / concerns—–is it wiggins or parker /… Read more »
I’ll be at the games as I was last season. Not all but a lot…Whatever they do I will be there cheering them on, but I will always have an “I Told You So” or “They Were Right” card in my pocket to play.
great to have you hear, nomad!
I do my thinking while cutting the grass too.
just wondering where people stand on this: who will have a better PER and win-shares, Dion or Wiggins? I fully appreciate both metrics and understand their utility. But, that said, I truly doubt Wiggins will meet Dion’s numbers. Potential aside, we have to consider where players are now and at what cost. If I was a betting man, I bet LBJ let Gilbert and Griffin know the time is now not later. His Lee Jenkins article was more PR. His real feelings were established in the privacy of the office. Griffin is aligned with win now. We will see how… Read more »
Wiggins, by virtue of more steals, rebounds, and finishing ability, once he rounds into form, will have a better WS number than Dion and PER. However, Dion will continue to ascend in RAPM and APM. (but he needs to shoot free throws better).
I was going more from experience and potential playing time. I sometimes wonder if Wiggins will see less time because of athletic fit. Now if Wiggins starts over Dion I bet you are right. It will be a fascianting thing to watch unfold if the the trade does not happen. I can only wish but I doubt we could create a Dion package to Philly that could net us Noel. That is my own pipe dream I am sure. Whomever starts next to Kyrie at the 2 will probably get carry over stat effects by virtue of just being there.… Read more »
by athletic fit I mean wiggins on the second unit could be matchup problems for most 2nd units. i am not suggesting dion is more athletic than wiggins. sorry for the potential misnomer
That would be too much talent on the front end. We need some one to bring excitement off the bench. Although Dion can do that but not like a Wiggins/Bennett tandem could. Bennett will be more competitive this year, because he will not see his younger homeboy come in and out perform him.
What would make you think Wiggins will have more steals? Surely not his entirely pedestrian steal numbers in college? As for finishing, again, based on what? His below par percentage at the rim in college?
Typical over-rating of athletic ability projection based on no known facts…
Dion’s PER will be higher…
No… Kj! I’m not saying that Wiggins is better than Dion. I like Dion a lot with his competitive chip on the shoulder attitude. But, I do understand having a tool means more if you know how to properly use it. First of all, Dion doesn’t want to come off the bench this year and rightfully so he has earned a starting spot at shooting guard. Second, Wiggins would perform better within his class without too much expectation, veteran leadership with the second unit and playing alongside his Native Canadian Ally in Anthony Bennett. That’s my perception and it could… Read more »
Someone mentioned this the other day and it bears mentioning again: how did Minnesota end up dealing from a position of strength? We are the only suitors in line to pursue Love. Does anyone seriously believe the Bulls–who just signed Pau Gasol–are going to trade most of their young assets away to get Love for 1 year? Will Love resign with them even if Lebron is still heavily recruiting him when he hits free agency next year? I don’t think so. Meanwhile, Golden State refuses to give up Klay Thompson, so Love isn’t getting traded there. Personally, I could care… Read more »
Nate’s original analysis of this trade gives us a really good quantitative reason to not do this. Simply based on the dollars per win projection, it doesn’t make sense to send Wiggins, especially while he’s on his rookie contract. When you consider that we’ll likely have to take back Barea or Martin, as well as sending out Dion and Bennett and possibly an additional pick, this trade is just awful from a dollars per win perspective. Even if we’re getting Dieng back…he’s not good enough to balance that equation. If we can make it a three way trade and we’re… Read more »
You’re right Josh except I can’t see getting rid of Dion at all nor Wiggins. Maybe Bennet but that could come back to haunt you even. A roster with 4 number 1 picks who perform and produce at a high level shit can keep Lebron playing til he’s 50 and winning rings. To The Cavaliers Organization; Give US a chance to witness our players develop from a rookie to the end.. Give US something we can hang our hats on..
There are some things I respectfully would like to understand from the pro-Love camp. If Love is acquired, we can assume Wiggins is gone in this scenario, as are Bennett and/or Dion + first round picks. So without even considering cap implications, qualities of unknown quantities, etc., let’s never forget that this is ALL about LeBron James and how we maximize his window. So keeping in mind that James will be 30 in December AND left Miami with the intention of lessening his nightly burden, if you are David Blatt: Can you reduce LeBron’s minutes so that he’s not playing… Read more »
Only in the event the Cavs give up Wiggins, Bennett, Dion, AND draft picks to get Love will I be truly disappointed.
The high octane teams with no D don’t win titles. All the recent ones had a few above average defenders starting. A great point was made above, the Cavs don’t need more scoring. Wiggins would contribute just by bothering the other teams best player. He doesn’t need to drop 20 a night and if allowed to grow he could become that guy as Lebron passes the torch in 4 years.
The team with Love wouldn’t have no D. It wouldn’t be great, but it wouldn’t be awful. But that’s actually how the Spurs have operated the past couples of years. With their aging stars they can’t play hyper attentive defense anymore, so they focused on hyper efficient offense which pummeled a very good defensive team into submission in the finals. The offense that the Cavs would be putting on the court with LeBron, Kyrie, Love, and Blatt’s vision….that’s straight up scary.
I understand and hear what you are saying vic—but those 3 have a very high basketball i.q. and are tremendous passers/ see the floor exceptionally well and are coached by a a coach ( blatt ) that is very innovative off.—-his saying is ” THE BALL HAS ENERGY ” —I THINK THAT IS WHAT IS INTRIGUING FOR THE CAVS TRYING TO GET LOVE is to see what these 3 along with blatts coaching could accomplish ( could be very exciting )—I believe in defense / and I would hate to part with wiggins but this could be very special for… Read more »
I agree with all the comments about what will the Cavs do about their defense I they acquire Love. If the Love deal goes down, the team is going to be run and gunning their way to 110 plus a night.
Now that we hVe LeBron I think the team can take a true locker room risk, and, I know Nate hates any mention of this, try to get Larry Sanders. He’s quick enough to run the pick and roll and can offer rim protection.
Cavs don’t have the money. Maybe next year with Haywood’s contract. Also, Kidd wants to repair that relationship. Which if anyone could turn a hard-partying jerk into a productive player, it’s Kidd. That’s kind of his bio.
the problem with picking KLove over Wiggins is that a trio of Irving Lebron Love is not a big 3. Its a big 2. Irving & Love are all offense. There’s only 1 ball. If you put Irving, Wiggins, Lebron, Thompson/Bennett, Varejao You immediately have the best 1-3 offensively AND defensively. You immediately have a lineup of 3 or FOUR plus defenders, Wiggins killing in transition, and Irving/Lebron dominating the halfcourt. (remember, there’s only 1 ball). But that’s just too smart for Cleveland to do… so I fully expect the Cavs to make the dumb move and trade Wiggins for… Read more »
The next time you think that your idea is “too smart” for an NBA front office, you should probably reconsider hitting send.
Wow. You have clearly not ever seem Kevin Love play. I truly believe that he is a future Hall of Famer. Who are you leaving out of the new Big 3? Kyrie? Kevin Love is improving every year, he is only 25 andhe loves to play this game…he is a HUGE competitor…and would continue to improve playing along side LBJ. He is the perfect compliment to LeBron..rebounding, outlet passing and shooting…No wone in the leauge would benefit more from this opportunity than KLove. Also, not to mention that Kloe is a perfect fit for Blatt’s style of play. I think… Read more »
Disagree. The lineup of Irving, Wiggins, Lebron, Thompson and Varajao has no shooters except Lebron and Kyrie, who will both be trying to take the ball into the paint. You need someone starting with them to space the floor, this is not happening with Thompson or Varejao, or Wiggins, who has not developed his outside shot yet. Now the paint is clogged. Love gives you the elite rebounding and post presence but also brings 3 point shooting, and spaces the floor for Lebron and Kyrie to penetrate into the paint and finish or kick the ball back out. This is… Read more »
The line up should be Lebron, Kyrie, Dion, Andy, and Tristan… Everybody else comes off the bench as they earn their roster spot in rotation.
I’m pumped about Ray Allen joining the team. We needed shooting and now with Allen and Miller we have it. Plus they are veterans who know how to get it done in the playoffs. Go Griffin go!!!
I’m relatively neutral on the trade, slightly leaning Love may be overrated because I value defense more than most and have been proven wrong so have learned that teams can win in all sorts of ways. But the random inclusion of Olowokandi is a dodgy rhetorical move. That needs to be backed up with more than their draft position. I don’t believe Wiggins is a sure fire star, but he is an incredibly skilled baller and someone who does not deserve to be dropped in with Olowokandi in serious analysis without a justification, as they look nothing like each other.… Read more »
have the cavs given any thought to possibly signing sessions ( I know this just makes everything more confusing / things to ponder ) you sign sessions ( who in my opinion is vastly underrated —he has a great relationship with kyrie )—allows you to possibly make the trade with phil ( needs to work in our favor )—miller your starting shooting gd —-sessions back up pt / or play him at starting pt/ kyrie shooting gd on occasion —heard allen is pretty sure he will sign with cavs —-I know a lot to digest and mull over —it is… Read more »
Sessions is very underrated. I’ve always liked him. Quality backup guard.
Yet, as a shooter, he doesn’t make a ton of sense. Mo Williams is a better complementary piece, but Sessions is a better initiator. Thing is, Cavs as it stands now, have 3 initiators, and not enough complementary shooters who aren’t geriatric.
Sessons = Jack. Ball dominant undersized combo guard.
For anyone complaining about the Zeller, Karasev, Jack dump, please realize we also signed Miller, Jones, and likely Allen. We still have a hole from Zeller (no doubt), but we have lost nothing with regard to Jack and Karasev. Also, you know, we SIGNED LEBRON JAMES with cap space we cleared.
There is no rational argument against the Zeller trade. There just isn’t.
Of course there is. The Cavs were responding to an irrational demand. Rich Paul said, “Clear cap space!” So the Cavs did it, and paid a steep price to do so: the equivalent of three first round picks, including a starting big (Zeller would make a million times more sense starting over Tristan). A rational agent would have said, “LeBron is coming. Clear cap space, but don’t decimate your team to do so.” It’s a bit shocking that the Cavs couldn’t find a taker for Jack, but they were trading from a position of weakness. Trading Bennett for a future… Read more »
Zeller was the missing link! With him still on the roster, the Cavs would have the look of a pretty complete team.
You can be utterly ridiculous at times. First of all, you are the KING of hindsight and anything you have to do to get the best player in the game, YOU DO IT. Sweet Jesus…
Of course you do it. I’m just saying that a little more communication from Rich Paul and LeBron would have made the Cavs’ moves a little easier to execute. Dumping three first rounders just to clear room is not exactly a path to winning.
“Trading Bennett for a future first
LOL.
Point taken.
I prefer Cleveland cartel, but cadre works. Losing Zeller was a bitch. I wouldn’t feel the drastic need to trade for a center if he was still here. He filled the lane really well last year and with the attention Lebron gets from defenses he’d get plenty of good looks. I’m not gonna flip out if they trade for Love. It’s a good problem to have, but I’d honestly prefer them to trade a smaller package for a center that doesn’t include Wiggins. Lebron can be your stretch 4. He averaged a sizzling .392 from downtown the last two seasons.… Read more »
I wouldn’t argue against it, but I’m still sad to see Zeller go. I liked him.
That doesn’t mean I’m not okay with the deal,though.
Okay, You make my point for me.. but, that would have been great if they had stopped there instead of getting all these washed miami players in the process then there would be no argument. But, for everyone we lost we get junk back. Maybe Mike Miller can re-establish his game to mediocre. Maybe.. but James Jones? Tyler din’t cost much, but was worth more than the two “Mike and J.Jones” combined. There’s always a rational out-look Hot Sauce, when I make an analysis.
So, you’re saying we shouldn’t be complaining about giving away a young center and SF with versatility by replacing them with three geriatric shooting guards. Got it.
A SF with versatility that was supposed to be a shooter, and couldn’t shoot.
I think you are overlooking that the move also allowed us to sign LEBRON JAMES.
Originally my position was now way should Wiggins be a part of a Love trade. But…I think we’re putting too much value into young Andrew. There’s a theory in behavioral economics called the Endowment Effect. Not that, as Cavs fans, we assume that Wiggins has a huge penis but rather that since he’s ours we ascribe too much worth to his unproven talents. He could be a top-five player in a few years, perennial all-star, dynamic two-way player or he could be yet another top draft pick that never lived up to the hype. He is essentially the mystery box… Read more »
i was thinking something similar to this endowment effect. didnt know it has a name. i am an organic chemist who works with sugars and there are many scientific parallels to this situation. a known variable is much preferable to an unknown potential to us chemistry types.
personally i think the deal must be made. preferably before multiple suitors present complexities. also, it is gilberts money to blow. if he is obliged to run deficit spending then ok. if the cavs brass need to scrape and pinch then make the team attractive enough that others will play for veteran minimums.
You make a nice point about the most recent players to be signed — they do not seem to be long term signings so it’s curious what the Cavs intentions behind closed doors may really be. However, there is clearly a reason Minnesota refuses to make the deal without Wiggins. Especially considering the Cavs can still trump any other offer for Love without Wiggins. Minnesota is negotiating from a position of power, which is strange for a team that could lose Love for nothing next summer… It would be terrible business to allow Minnesota to dictate the terms of this… Read more »
“Especially considering the Cavs can still trump any other offer for Love without Wiggins”
This is so ridiculously false. I have no idea why anyone believes it other than wishcasting.
What’s a better deal? Lee and Harrison Barnes???????? Jimmy Butler, McDermott, and DUNLEAVY??? We have 3 first round picks next year, and Waiters is already better than Barnes, and a better offensive player than any of the bulls offers. We’re the only team that can offer PIECES TO USE NOW (bennett, waiters, thompson) that still have potential. Please, convince me that a deal with Waiters/Thompson/bennett and a pick or two isn’t better than those two offers. Let me help. Harrison Barnes is all potential (waiters played a ton better than he did last year). Lee is digressing and getting worse.… Read more »
Actually two picks. They traded one in the Jack/Zeller/Karasev deal, I believe.
We can only move two of those picks, but we still have three.
We could always include another 1st rounder a couple years down the line…if the Wolves have interest in our 2018 1st round pick.
Quite right, Peter. My mistake. The Cavs couldn’t trade 2015’s first rounder because they promised the Bulls the ability to swap. The Celtics own Cleveland’s 2016 first rounder.
Aaron you cannot compare a dude who have been in the league for that long in Kevin Love’s game to wiggins.. The Dude has been in the league for this long and his team has not finished over .500 nor has been in the playoffs. He is not a good defender as well! Listen is about a team not a freaking fantasy basketball game! San Antonio team had guys whom i didn’t even know their names and together they whipped Wade, Bosh and the bast player in the world like little junior high school team. But when you compared the… Read more »
You’re right, I can’t. Because Wiggins is totally unproven thus far. What I can do is look at Love (26,12) did with a coach that checked out on a bad team in a stacked conference. Barkley played on a sub .500 team (’88), so did Garnett (’06)and Jordan (’85, ’87.) Sometimes its the case that your coach and team just aren’t good enough. According to ESPN’s real plus-minus, Love is an above-average defender http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/6 If yours is a defensive mindset then possibly Wiggins is the way to go – but that still needs to be proven. I’d prefer to see… Read more »
According to your link, Love is 21st in DRPM for power forwards and 92 overall…a tick above David Lee (who’s not known for being a stellar defender). So, he’s not abysmal (as some claim), but that on most nights the other team is starting a better defender at PF. http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/7/sort/DRPM I’ve also read that Love ranks 49th out of 74 eligible big men in defense against the PNR (allowing .832 ppp), that Love allows a high FG% in the paint (57%), and that the Wovles were 29th in the league in allowing points in the paint. He also is 101st… Read more »
DRPM is a rebounding stat. “For individual players, defensive rebounding is not as valuable as offensive rebounding because many defensive rebounds are discretionary — another defender will get the rebound if one individual does not — but it’s still part of defense, and the Timberwolves have had a better defensive rebound percentage with Love on the court every season of his career. Last season, per NBA.com/Stats, they rebounded 75.3 percent of opponents’ misses with Love and 72.4 percent when he was on the bench” And please take into account that Adelman had them play not to foul. So, they allowed… Read more »
Aaron-
For the espn real plus/minus page we were both using, drpm stands for defensive real plus/minus.
Thanks Peter, I got lost in the sea of number. Also, I enjoy your contribution not to just this thread but to the overall discussion – its rooted in fact and convivial (instead of screaming opinion.)
Also- I don’t think our team has a problem taking the scoring burden off LeBron/Kyrie.
Dion has turned up his game and is an excellent at the catch and shoot. Miller, Jones and soon maybe Ray will help spread the floor. Others will help by contributing 8-12 ppg (Andy, TT, AW, AB).
I like Dion but he thinks a) he’s a ball handler and b) he should be a starter. I disagree. I love it when he either catch-and-shoots or drives to the rim. (As long as he doesn’t break himself in the process of trying to break the basket.)
We’re not saying that Love is bad, we’re just saying giving up too much for a player that we can have next year is bad. There be a chance for Love to join the Cavs if he really wants to win. I think if we get him this year, he’ll sign with a west cost team like Lakers or Golden State or something, does anybody remember Buzzer and the hand job?
I mentioned in a late blog llast night ( will repeat today ) –believe we are all getting a case of ” PARALYSIS BY ANALYSIS “—- we have all over analyzed this trade for the past 2 weeks that we are all fearful of ” pulling the trigger ” in fear it may be the wrong decision—there are many questions / consequences to mull over and now amico reports that phil. might cloud the picture even more with their interest in being part of the trade—it is difficult to be patient but sometimes the KNOWN IS WORST THAN THE UNKNOWN… Read more »
Guys – nomad fixes his caps lock key! ::3 Cheers!::
HOORAY!!! HOORAY!!! HOORAY!!!
Hip Hip HOORAAAYYyyyyeee!!!
It’s not only about “known” and “not known.” It’s about having $60+MM locked up in three salaries when the salary cap is $63MM. Two of the three locks are “known” to be injury prone. The post, for which they have no back up – and even now are having trouble finding resources to get a BACK UP – is also injury prone.
This may sound odd, but the Cavs don’t need Love’s scoring or rebounding. They have plenty of both. They need a team. They need another post.
I don’t get why some people focus on Love’s scoring and point out they the Cavs could get those numbers elsewhere. It’s not the points that are going to have the impact. He is a legit threat in both the post and from behind the arc, so depending on where he is on the court he is going to help get someone a bunch of uncontested threes or a wide open lane.
Hey bw… If The Cavs felt they needed this type of player then why didn’t the keep Spencer Hawes? He can do they same as Love but better. Furthermore, he wouldn’t have required a big contract nor would they have to give up all of their young talent and draft picks to sign him. Do you think for one second that K.Love would be the go to man on this Cleveland team then you would be in denial. Love will not record the same numbers here as he did in Minnesota. Therefore we don’t need his scoring or rebounds. We… Read more »
They don’t have Hawes because they were keeping the cap space clear to sign LeBron. I am ok with how that worked out.
“He can do the same as Love but better.”
That was sarcasm, right?
No that was not sarcasm… Didn’t you watch the Cavs last season after acquiring Hawes? He was just as effect. Don’t be fooled by the stats and take time to analyze the situation. Hawes is a good post player with greater size, an excellent outside shooter and deadly from 3 point range. Plus he plays some defense.. Maybe not a great defensive player but adequate enough to get the job done with the line-up that the Cavs have now.
I don’t agree at all that Hawes could do that better than Love, but it’s beside the point as Nate said. If we could have worked it out I probably would have been on board with keeping Wiggins and Hawes. The way things fell in to place, we had to let Hawes walk, and obviously he preferred to play out west as he took a significant pay cut to go to LA. I don’t think for a second we could have kept him at that price. And my point wasn’t assuming that he’d be the “go to” guy on the… Read more »
Okay, I would agree with you guys except for the fact that The Cavs are still back in the market for a big man with the skills that Hawes has. As far as clearing up cap space for Lebron it would have made more since to trade Wiggins, Bennett, and a 2015 first rond draft pick for Lebron than for Love. So they have cleared up space for Lebron, but still have space for Love. It just don’t compute. They had Spencer Hawes they should have signed him and we would be talking a lineup of Spencer Hawes, Kyrie Irving,… Read more »
Spencer Hawes (and I love him) does not do “the same as Love but better.”
Did you just compare Spencer Hawes to Kevin Love? I’m going to continue reading your comment as if Circus music was playing in the background and someone was reading it to me and winking the whole time…
Alongside Bron and Kyrie, Hawes would be nearly as productive as Love, and twice the value. true story.
I think the point is that between the multiple dynamic scoring options the Cavs have in Kyrie, LeBron and Dion + contributions from the others, offense is not a major concern. Love definitely adds a good post presence and interior passing, but either way the difference in offense is not enormous. Adding Love would cause a major setback on depth and defense, however, and to many people (myself included) this leaves the Cavs with a less complete team.
Defensively I get the concern, mainly because of what a sieve Kyrie is, but LeBron alone does a lot for me to keep from panicking. I think without Love the offense if good, not great. I think he would be the trump card. We saw how congested the paint was last season, and what a difference Hawes made. If we end up trading for Love, Dion is the player I’m most excited to see the effect this has on his game. At least on defense we’ll know that you better score on your first shot every time because I don’t… Read more »
LeBron does a good job I just don’t think we should be riding him on defense, which is all about effort/energy, as he enters his 30s. He also just left Miami because he was depended on to do too much. Plus the addition of shooters will also open the floor, albeit not in the way Love would as a dual post threat. Rebounding is another area where Love’s skill set becomes redundant, because Andy, Tristan, Kyrie, and LeBron all are some of the best rebounders at their positions in the league. I just think getting Love adds too little in… Read more »
I couldn’t have said it better myself… People don’t think the future means anything. Any businessman understands that you don’t sell away your organization’s longevity to compete with an industries market unless you are going to make all the money you can now and close out. I’m not sorry to say that the potential alone of “Andrew Wiggins” a franchise team building francihse changing player, who have a huge impact on the organization’s culture for winning is worth much more value than one man who can get his own stats but don’t have an effect on the franchise as a… Read more »
Cupid you have hit the nail right on the head! Even if LOVE is that great of a player, he will get tired right? Lebron will get tired too right? who the hell is gonna fill it in? Cleveland fans should not allow for another super team which pays 3 players so much and have a bunch of old minimum players who would not be able to run with fast young teams like san antonio, OKC, the Blazers and the like. LOVE trade doesn’t make that much sense NOW. At least next year it will make sense NOT this year!
Randall Roland, I am glad that we can see eye to eye or post to post… Many people aren’t viewing that aspect. You’re… there is a new breed of NBA players, and playing styles. Cleveland was on trek to compete within that culture but they keep dealing away their future and even their present. Not only will we struggle to compete in the run and gun with the west we will also struggle with the east. There are teams like Washington, Charlotte and Toronto that’s being overlooked. These are the most dangerous teams because you don’t see them coming. While… Read more »
According to the metrics, Love’s defense isn’t near as bad as people are painting it. Plus his rebounding helps make up for it (defense ends when the ball is in the defense’s possession).
Some people go over the top, but not all the metrics paint a pretty pciture. Plus we’re already set on rebounding.
I’ve read that Love allows a very high percentage FG% in the paint (57%), that the Timberwolves were 29th in the league in allowing points in the pain, and according to Synergy Love allows 0.832 ppp on pick and rolls, which is 49th out of 74 eligible big men.
I don’t believe that Love is a terrible defender, average may be closer to the truth and average is not what we’re shooting for.
So, If Wiggins turns into a star in 4 years, you will be against giving him a max deal, because, hey, you can’t tie up that much cap space in three guys?
We don’t have to lose him, Gilbert always paid extra for tax. It’s our player and we can go way over the cap to keep him.
That’s such a straw-man argument.
To sign Wiggins to a max in 4 years we don’t have to give up Dion, or Bennett, or any of our 1st rounders, or the flexibility to make a move next summer. At that point we can go over to the cap to keep our players, in this situation we’d be getting rid of our high-upside young players and our picks and our flexibility. Hardly the same.
James 21mil + 15 for Kyrie = 36 just for the two, Kevin Love will ask for a max contract if he stays and where in the hell Cavs can dish out the kind of money that he wants , say around 18 to 20 mil + we have to give up Wiggins + Dion + Bennett + a first rounder next year to complete the deal. We end up with Love , James , Kyrie, AV, Delly, TT and who else, say Jones? . This Love deal will makes the LBJ think about another trip to another wonderland in… Read more »
I agree with Tony.
Dumping a few assets to get Lebron is a no-brainer. However, the notion that we should get Love at any cost is DUMB. This isn’t fantasy sports. Things like defense, chemistry, and salary cap implications matter.
There is no way that Love + Martin or Berea > Wiggins+ Bennett + Waiters + draft picks
Tony – You keep saying we have to give up Wiggins, Dion, Bennet and First rounder. Where are hearing that? Obviously that would be insane. I don’t think anyone is proposing that deal, so I am not sure why anyone is using it in an argument about why the trade is bad. Re: the salary issues you raise, whether we acquire Love or not, with Kyrie and LBJ contracts we are going to operating as a capped team for the foreseeable future. With Love, we would simply be farther over the cap. If Gilbert is willing to pay the luxury… Read more »
Haven’t you heard…. What Tony is saying is true. In order to land Love the Cavs has to do some re-contructing of the roster in order to make this a reality. Other teams like Philly and Utah is getting involved… Utah already has a great young talent of ours in Carrick Felix and now The 76ers want Dion Waiters… What did we get from Utah, but some garbage and they still have to pay money and next years second round pick. Lord knows what Philly deal will go down like when they steal Waiters. Then, if we get Love there… Read more »
Carrick Felix is a “great young talent”? I think that is news even to his own Mom.
And as other people have tried to tell you, resigning Spencer Hawes was not possible if they wanted to give Lebron a max contract. It’s a tough choice, but I think I’ll go with signing Lebron over Hawes by just a hair.
I agree with Tony and Cupid. The cavs are moving backwards!!!! they are bringing Miami to Cleveland. Superstar team with max contracts doesn’t win!!! Who the hell is gonna play defense with Lebron, Love, James Jones, Ray Allen and Mike Miller, Kyrie? Now lebron will have to do it all again and he will get tired and the team will lose miserably and the finger pointing will start. Like I have a saying, ” when you use your index finger to point at things, three other fingers point at you but the funny thing is you never see that those… Read more »
Now they’re saying that Bulls are in it for Love too” my ass” Who’s to say that it’s a game that Wolves coach and GM is playing and telling Chicago to get involve so they can bleed Cavs of more picks and totally drain them for good, the reason for Bulls , a weak Cavs is in their division and they know for sure that with James and current roster Cavs will be there at the end and they be collecting dust. After all we waited 64 years for a prade , I think we can wait another year and… Read more »
Cleveland tends to be its own Nemesis. The organization always trade away its young and they shine somewhere. Wasn’t Danny Greene drafted by Cleveland? Cleveland always trade away its draft picks and complain years down the line why their team sucks. If they do this trade of Wiggins and trade away all their number one picks, I will start comparing this franchise to the NY knicks. The Knicks always trade away their young draft picks and their future picks. That’s why they will suck for a long time. The Cavs shouldn’t go that rout because I believe that the team… Read more »
Promising JJ????? Did you watch Jack last year? Could have called him Jarrett Jack-Up-A-Long-Two