Midseason 5 on 5
2015-01-26Cavs fans, here’s five questions for five Cavs the Bloggers. And when you’re done with this, head on over to Red94.net, for a peak at the newly created weekly TrueHoop Network Roundup. We’re really trying hard to create an “ESPN TrueHoop Network Revival.” Please take a minute or ten to check out the great content on our sister sites. In the mean time, here are the questions that have been burning a hole in our brains.
1. How are you feelings about the Wiggins/Love trade now?
Tom: I hadn’t slept in weeks so I decided to check myself into therapy. Now I realize this is all my parents fault. If they hadn’t nurtured me and put up that basketball hoop in my driveway I never would have fallen in love with this God-forsaken sport. [Reaches for pills…hands shaking]
John: Not good. I was against making the trade at the time it happened, because I LOVED Wiggins as a 3-and-D with athleticism guy who could pick up LeBron’s defensive slack, run the floor with him, and finish off of easy set-ups. Then again, the team needed a stretch 4 in the worst way, and Kevin Love is possibly the best stretch four of all time. (Dirk is more of a mid-range shooter with 3-point range.)
So basically, I wanted both guys, because I am greedy, and hoped the Cavs would at least let some time pass and make the Timberwolves sweat before going all-in with a lineup with so many defensive question marks. But when it came down to an unproven rookie who had disappointed in college vs. Kevin freaking Love, it seemed like the Cavs did what they had to do. Now Wiggins is hitting 40% of his threes, has been a house of fire this past month, and looks like a future stud.
Here’s how I rationalize it: Wiggins is, right now, a good stats/horrible team guy. Love was an AMAZING stats/mediocre team guy. Wiggins’ defense would be the big upgrade, and the Wolves are dead-last in defensive efficiency. Gun to your head, who’s more likely to be the 2nd or 3rd best player on a championship team within the next 3 years? I still say Love. So that’s what I cling to. That said, on both ends of the deal, this could not be shaping up worse so far.
Nate: I’ve spent the last two months going through the 10 stages of grief over this trade. I’m past “shock” (after I watched Wiggins play a game). As for “emotional release,” for 20 minutes one night, I screamed on my porch at the sky when it was like five degrees and the Cavs had just laid an egg. I spent a long time on “depression” and “physical symptoms” in the month of December. I don’t think I really had the 21 day flu, I just had a Wiggins deficiency. “Anxiety, fear, and panic” was a long stage. I felt like the Cavs were existentially doomed. I read a lot of Camus and listened to Autobahn albums. Then I moved on to “hostility and Anger”. I really raged in the comment section. I even dubbed Kevin, Kevinnaw, for a while — as in Kevin, Not Andrew Wiggins.
Guilt: “could I have done more to stop it?” I asked myself . “Not without inducing a restraining order,” was the answer. Then I was on to “hesitancy to renew normal activities.” I don’t think I wrote for like two weeks at one point. Finally, I’m somewhere between “Renewed Hopes and the Healing of Memories,” and “Acceptance of one’s new role and readjusting to reality.”
Wiggins is gone. The fallout will be palpable in the coming years. But if this season had an inflection point, it was Kevin Love taking that charge in L.A., bad back and all. I’ve come to accept and cherish Hoops Hershel Walker, and really hope he is a part of a long and glorious run of basketball success for the Cavs over the next few years. I want the Cavs to fully invest in putting Kevin “Bowie” Love in the best position to succeed (the high post) for the foreseeable future. And no, I haven’t moved to the final stage just because Wiggins has hit the “Rookie Wall.”
Ben: Roughly the same as before. I was against the trade from the start. I was as high on Wiggins as anyone and still didn’t expect him to be this polished as a rookie. His balance on his jump shot has improved far more quickly than I could have imagined. His upper body form was already fantastic. With good balance, he is lethal from deep. Even if Love were playing at 90% of last year’s production instead of 60%, I wouldn’t be happy. The Cavs must win a championship with Love. Otherwise, it will go down as one of the worst moves in NBA history.
David: I’m feeling positive because I haven’t invented a time machine and am so rational I won’t judge something I can’t change. Seriously though, I think Kevin has looked better on defense, since Blatt changed to a more conservative scheme. Offensively, Kevin needs proper sets to be effective. Once Blatt runs these for Love, and he fails I’ll be worried. I do think Andrew Wiggins could have been a game changer on the Cavs without great schemes in place, but 90% of that is because of how athletic he is. Is he a smart basketball player who can fit into a scheme yet? I’m doubtful he is, and I think he would have enabled Blatt to avoid implementing his motion offense this season, which needs to be done if the team wants to get out of the East.
2. What grade would you give Griffin on his recent trades for Mozgov, Smith, and Shumpert?
John: A. I’ll go with a freaking “A.” J.R. Smith has always been better than Dion Waiters, and he’s stepped in and been a better version of Waiters on the Cavs since day one. Mozgov is just another example of how good LeBron can make someone who can catch, finish, and be seven feet tall — he’s been a bulkier version of Birdman/Varejao, with a mid-range jumper to boot. And he’s a true five, which lets Love play at the four and LeBron play at the 3, where his weight loss has put him after being a hybrid 3/4 his last two seasons in Miami. And anyone who’s watched LeBron the last two seasons knows the team desperately needed to get him a defensive bodyguard on the wing, which Shumpert will be.
Nate: The Waiters trade in retrospect is an A+. If luxury tax isn’t a concern (and apparently it isn’t), then getting two rotation wings and a first rounder for Dion is a steal. Smith, until this last game was a barnburner, and Shumpert will shine as a stopper. I already saw a fantastic strip on Reggie Jackson yesterday. Dion looks like the same player that he was here: not as good as he thinks he is. I think we all had blinders of affection on for Dion. The Mozgov trade seems like an “A” too. I didn’t like giving up two first rounders for him, but he’s a good young big on a reasonable two year deal, and that Thunder pick may not even end up in New York next year, as the protections on it are pretty strict. OKC keeps it if they don’t make the playoffs (which is looking like a possibility). Oh, and I’ve been blown away so far by the man I call, The Iron Curtain.
David: At first, I was mad about the trade from a salary cap stand point, but I realized, regardless of that trade, the Cavs would have been in a poor cap spot after the season no matter what. I give Griffin an “A.” He traded one athletic guy for three. That’s a come up. Mozgov has also looked like the Berlin Wall around the rim, so that’s made me like the trade a bit more.
Tom: Based on everything I’d known about the players and what Griff gave up, I’d say a “B.” David was bargaining from a position of weakness, but given that, he came out alright. Now if you look at how well Moz and Smith have played you’d give it an A – but I don’t think anyone thought they would be this good. Shumpert was, in some ways, the highlight of this trade for me – and we haven’t really seen what he can do yet. I think he’s a bit overrated, but like the other two – these moves were about fit – and the fit is good.
Ben: B+. Dion and a protected first for the three new guys is not a bad deal. Still, I wish the Cavs had been able to get Moz in the off-season. It probably wasn’t plausible at the time, but the season would have gone quite differently had Mozgov patrolled the paint from the start. I wanted to see a Mozgov/Andy frontcourt. Alas. If Shump plays within himself and J.R. continues to be a surprisingly good locker room guy, I will give it an A.
3. The roster stands at 14 players, who would you add for the final spot?
Ben: Andray Blatche. He is still in China until late Feb at the earliest, but the Cavs could use his mix of size and skill. He is obviously a risky addition. He tends to get Iso happy and has never been particularly concerned with staying in shape. Still, guys frequently grow up a bit when they play abroad. J.R. Smith won Sixth Man of the Year after his Chinese season. Blatche is supremely talented. If he has matured, the Cavs should sign the Syracuse, NY born Filipino.
Tom: I’d look at Ed Davis, the six-foot-ten power forward on the hapless Lakers. The Cavs really only have three big men: Moz, TT, and KLove. K Love is injury prone, and you just can’t play Brendan Haywood in meaningful games. They need some insurance up front.
David: Is John Henson available? Larry Sanders is out for the Bucks, and he may be bought out. I’d risk the locker room for him and bet on the fact that Cleveland doesn’t have legal weed dispensaries yet or easy drug access like Milwaukee. Otherwise, I want the team to try out a bunch of big D-leaguers.
John: Ray Allen or who cares. I’ve been disappointed in Delly this season, and think Allen would be an upgrade even with his defense being a train wreck, but I’d honestly like Allen more for the locker-room stuff; he really is that good of a guy, and has the kind of work ethic that rubs off on other guys.
Nate: What do Andray Blatch, Ed Davis, John Henson, and Larry Sanders have in common with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny? All six of them have no shot at playing with the Cavs this year. Agree with Tom that Ed Davis would be nice, but I think L.A. tries to sell him on sticking around next year. Been hearing lots of rumblings that the Cavs want multiple guys, and that Haywood and Harris might be gone too. Bobby Brown from China sounds intriguing. The guy once scored 74 in a game there. Of course, then I watched the footage. It looked like he was beating up on high-schoolers. Honestly there’s no one that thrills me, including Ray Allen. Rotate some D-Leaguers and veterans through some 10 day contracts and see if you find the next Hassan Whiteside.
4. What are your predictions for the second half of the season?
Nate: Cleveland catches Toronto and maybe Washington for the second or third playoff seed. It’s crucial to get past the fourth or fifth seed and to avoid a second round matchup with the Hawks. I want the Cavs to beat up on Milwaukee in the first round, let the Bulls grind down the Hawks in the second, and then take down Atlanta for a Finals spot. Whoever gets out of the West is going to have survived a war.
David: They’ll end the season at 50-32. Blatt is going to get his offensive sets implemented one way or another, and they’ll stumble a little because of that.
John: I’m thinking a finish somewhere in the 48-53 win area, a solid puncher’s chance against any team in the East, because not even the Hawks can stop the Cavs if LeBron goes Deus Ex LeBron, and if Love and Kyrie are hitting on all cylinders at that point, there’s no team that can take 4 of 7 on the Cavs. The West will be a problem. “Puncher’s chance against any team in the playoffs” is going to be the refrain from me from now until the season ends.
Tom: The Cavaliers will not win a single game. They will be the worst team in the league by a wide margin. David Blatt will choke-slam Matthew Dellavedova which will set off an international conflict.
Ben: The Cavs need to play .700 ball for the rest of the season in order to reach 50-plus wins. Mozgov’s presence has drastically altered the mentality of the squad. The effects on the floor are obvious. His effect off the floor might be as important. Griffin went out and got Blatt his Russian bigman. It shows the players that the front office is behind Blatt. It provides a voice in the locker room who knows of the coach’s success. Call me an optimist, but I think they have turned a corner. Wins should follow.
5. What is your go restaurant/bar near the Q before a game?
Tom: I have children – no time for such things. I’ve been to one game in the last four years (only because Mark Price requested to meet me #HUMBLEBRAG). But my pre-game meal consists of Pizza Lunchables and Ecto Cooler.
Ben: Unfortunately, I haven’t been to a game in Cleveland since 2004. Germany is far away.
Nate: Does the Winking Lizard across from Walsh University in Canton count? Probably not. In Cleveland, I like Zocalo (Mexican) on 4th street. Went to Noodlecat the other day too. It was carbalicious — plus they had Brooklyn Sirachi Ace on draft, so win/win.
David: I haven’t been to a Cavs game for a while now. In Chicago, I would go to Billy Goat’s Tavern after Bulls games and shout, “Tornover, Tornover, Tornover,” instead of “Cheezborger, Cheezeborger, Cheezeborger.” In Cleveland, I always go to the Wagon Wheel for games.
John: I live in New Orleans, so nothing is all that near the Q, but I’m a fan of St. Joe’s on Magazine Street. It’s cheap, quiet, and has a nice outdoor-ish area where you can sit at a table and have some relative quiet.
I still think the Love/Wiggins lament is based purely on conjecture and seems to overlook reality. I’ve seen the Wiggins highlights, he’s definitely a really good, athletic rookie. He’s also on a bad team that gives him alot of opportunities with very little expectation. Kevin Love is an established NBA specialist, with several outstanding tools in an arsenal that fits very well next to Lebron, on a team that is only just now finding a balanced rotation, much less offensive framework. All of those things aside, and Kevin Love has still been better than Andrew Wiggins this season! This season,… Read more »
Just to make sure I didn’t leave out any advanced stat lovers:
This season, on a team in flux, as the 3rd option for the most part, Love has…
Far better Net Rating (+2.2 – -11.2)
Higher EFG% (35.4 – 33.5)
Higher AST Ratio (11.4 – 9.3)
Far higher REB% (17.1 – 7.4)
Higher TS% (56.2 – 50.4)
Equal USG% (22.3 – 22.2)
[Stats courtesy of NBA.com, 2014-2015 regular season averages] (Love – Wiggins)
Agreed. Kevin Love is a superior player to Andrew Wiggins right now. People want to get all excited about Wiggins going for 30 points or scoring 20+ in 5 straight games, but they fail to realize he’s putting up lots of points in games that Minnesota is getting their butts kicked. Whether people want to admit it or not, Wiggins has zero pressure and is playing teams who are often playing with 80% effort in the second half because Minnesota is such an awful team. Meanwhile, Kevin Love, while “struggling,” is averaging 19 and 10 and is only improving. He… Read more »
I think Blatt should rest LeBron tonight against Detroit. We’re on a roll, but we have Portland tomorrow night which will be our third game in four nights, and our second of a back-to-back. I don’t think anyone believes that LeBron can play heavy minutes every game for the rest of the season and not revert back to early-season, half-injured LeBron. I’d sit him tonight against Detroit, let Love, Irving, and Smith carry the offensive load, and beat the 17-28 Pistons who just lost Brandon Jennings for the season. Then, LeBron can play heavy minutes against Portland against a legitimate… Read more »
Then more rest against the likes of Sacramento, Minnesota, and Philadelphia.
Disagree. He’s only played above 40 minutes once since he’s been back and that was against the Clips when they didn’t have KLove. With Blatt’s new rotation of LBJ, he’s averaging just over 36 minutes per game since his return. That’s not bad. Why mess with it while they’re on a roll and doing well? If anything, if they can play like they did against Charlotte on Friday, then LBJ will only have to play around 27 minutes and can rest the fourth quarter.
Consistency has been the word used by most of the team as being the key to success so I’m all in for a little less minutes but not no minutes. Go Cavs!
Completely disagree. LeBron is the key to this team sniffing a title not just this year, but for the next 5 years.
Playing the “36 minutes isn’t bad” game is a recipe for disaster.
Going from a 6 to a 7 game win streak simply isn’t important. Ensuring LeBron can continue to play with the energy he has since returning is astronomically more important than anything else.
Who are you, Brian Windhorst? Seriously dude, try selling “going from a 6 to a 7 win streak simply isn’t important” to actual NBA players. Cavs need every win they can get, unless you’d prefer them being the 5 seed and playing on the road in Chicago, then if they get through that, going to play the Hawks in Atlanta in round two. I care about winning ONE FREAKING TITLE which NO TEAM has done in 50 YEARS AND COUNTING. So, that’s all I really care about. If they’re in the hunt for the next five years, then that’s great,… Read more »
David Blatt, the J.R. Whisperer: http://www.fearthesword.com/2015/1/26/7890837/david-blatt-the-j-r-whisperer
Cavs need to #CallWillieUp… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfFJSzUJdew
Man, that dude gets UP! Seems like he’s had a few opportunities with NBA teams (Memphis, Sacto, Indy, Brooklyn) but either hasn’t had the opportunity or next level talent to stick. Be an interesting look on a 10-day maybe though…
Nice ups/post game, but do the Cavs need an undersized four, with no three point game, like at all? If you’re going that route, just go get Jeff Adrien, who can be an enforcer, rebound, and score.
I don’t know if I’d call him undersized necessarily… Dude is 6’10” and averaging 2.5 blocks per game this year…
If Quincy Miller doesn’t stick with the Kings, that’s the guy I’d go after. Was the best D-League forward for most of the year.
Missed this the other day, but Jason Lloyd posted this funny story about JR in his Cavs rundown after the Charlotte game…
Funny moment pregame. I noticed Smith walking out of the shower prior to the game, which struck me as odd and led to this exchange.
Me: “You shower before every game?”
Him: “Yep.”
Me: “Gotta look good at all times, huh?”
Him: “Yep. You never know when your future wife might be in the stands.”
JR is better than Dion in almost every way. I feel like they need to interview him regularly no matter what. Actually, I think the Blog needs to d s podcast interview with him. Such a crazy cat!
rant sports just had a column on 4 players that cavs should go after before trade deadline—- GARY NEAL / RODNEY STUCKEY / TAYSHEWN PRINCE / MO WILLIAMS—–
Not advocating for it, but how fitting would it be to bring back Mo? Doubt Cavs would want to deal with the Wolves again though…
It would be sweet!
most fun idea of the year! that would be awesome! He was everyone’s favorite little swagger man. oh man i wish it could happen. Would minny take Dellavadova?
But then Cols would have nobody to hate on ;)
I thought Mo was part of the Love deal when they signed him. Sadly not.
Gary Neal: terrible lately, and a general locker room problem when things aren’t going well. Wouldn’t mind him but keep him on a short leash and don’t give up anything to get him. Mo Williams: won’t work salary wise unless Minnesota buys him out Rodney Stuckey: Color me intrigued… combo guard with size who can play either spot on a vet minimum contract. Not sure Cavs have anything Indy wants, though. Chemistry is the problem here. Delly doesn’t pout if he’s out of the rotation, but I can’t say that about Stucky. Plus, lots of duplication of skills with Shump,… Read more »
A lot of great and more than a few amusing takes and dining recommendations. thanks, all! My kitchen is across the street from my TV. plus: free parking. The Cavs are just starting to gel. Love is an odd piece to integrate, but he’s a shooter and rebounder who just needs to develop a new kind of groove congruent with Blatt’s schemes. To me the big double trade was scary when I heard about the deals, but, as it turns out, having careers rejuvenated by playing next to The King pays immediate dividends on the court. Ray Allen??!?? I’d rather… Read more »
Interesting read on Bleacher Report on the current streak and how the Cavs can still beat Atlanta to win the east…
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2342051-how-cleveland-cavaliers-can-still-be-eastern-conferences-best-team
Portland won’t be playing in NY tonight because of the blizzard so they will be well rested on Wednesday. They’re already in Cleveland.
Time for some dedicated Cleveland-based Cavs fans to start pulling some fire alarms at whichever hotel the Blazers are staying at for the next two nights…
I love stuff like this…
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12232884/golden-state-warriors-wear-special-chinese-new-year-uniforms
I kinda miss the days when the Cavs did more of the throwback or alternate jerseys. I don’t feel like I’ve seen the “hot dog on a stick” unis all that much this year. Maybe they got superstitious after losing the home opener in them.
There’s something a little boring about the current yellow jerseys IMHO…
As a walsh student I love the winking lizard drop. Happened to be there for opening night and many other games. Big fan of this blog. I don’t know who else you bring on this team. We have enough 3-point hear check guys who can’t play D ( miller, jones) without bringing in another just off of name. I think Okafor is worth atleast a look, same with jermaine o’neal if he decides to sign with a team. Other than that, if just let this team begin to figure things out without more shuffling. If there’s a theme to this… Read more »
It sounds like Okafor is going to wait until next year…
http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/nba/rumors/post/_/id/32339/why-emeka-okafor-will-delay-comeback
Not sure what the latest on J O”Neal is.
Still hoping Prokhorov decides to pull a fire sale and somehow the Cavs pick up KG on a vet minimum…
KG is going to the Clips if he’s bought out. He won’t even return Griff’s phone call.
what a great name. okafor, depending on his medical records wouldnt cause problems. i even think he wouldnt mind using all 6 fouls in 10-15 minutes if necessary. i hope the cavs big learn to use the foul the way ac and fred have begged them for months
Wonder how many other CtB readers are in the area. I’m at that Lizard at least once a week now. That area desperately needed a good bar.
You’re not kidding there. And I’d venture to say that there are a few more in the past few months than there were just last year… Probably like there are probably more fans at the wink for CAVS games then there were last year
@ All- Started reading the blog thoroughly about a week ago. Really appreciate the high bb iq by all. I went back and forth about Love/Wiggins and the bottom line is…. it doesn’t matter anymore.
I’m more interested in who to pick up for the last spot. I agree that Ray Allen is not the answer. I agree with EG to go get another big/enforcer.
If you want good duck fat fries try Bar Cento on West 25th. Awesome!
Interestingly, Pelton had this to say regarding why he thinks Kevin Love SHOULD be named an All Star Reserve…
“Love has been maligned all season for his poor defense and difficulty fitting in with the Cavaliers. Yet he is still tops among East frontcourt players in WARP, and it’s harder than you might think to find evidence that Love is the biggest problem with the Cleveland defense. Per NBA.com/Stats, the Cavaliers allow fewer points per possession with Love on the court than any of their other big men.”
I chalk that up entirely to correlation effects and how bad the Cavs bench was for stretches.
I’m not saying I agree with Pelton (especially since I’d rather KLove get a week off to rest his back), just that it’s an interesting look at the numbers…
I kind of feel like this a glaring example of a “make reality fit my analytics” kind of article by Pelton. Regardless of what you think of advanced metrics, guys like Pelton do this kind of stuff all the time. And why not, they figure? They have stats. If people say “the conclusion you are drawing from your stats is not consistent with why I am actually seeing on the floor” they can just say “you have no stats, so that’s just your subjective observation, and subjective observation always loses to stats”. But this supposed dichotomy between advanced metrics vs.… Read more »
Couldn’t agree more with your take on metrics vs fandom, Mac. I guess I was less interested in how Pelton got there, as I was in his suggesting that KLove deserves to be an All Star. But you’re right. If you go by the eyeball test from watching the games as a fan, you definitely don’t look at Love and say “man, he’s having a really good year so far.” And I think I’d rather gut myself with a rusty pair of lawn shears and slowly bleed out on my patio than listen to any podcast that features Windbag, Slime… Read more »
Just thinking about something (investment returns) that usually I have with older colleagues at work. Future expectations about realistic returns and the real return on investment are often widely divergent. If it is about a measurable (money in investments) it can be easier to see what was a better choice. But in this case with Wiggins and Love the 2 are widely divergent to start. Part of my problem communicating to others here is that my paranoia about investment disaster (Love leaving for nothing). I have no clue where I could be going with these thoughts, but I know one… Read more »
You likely suffer from the “skilled” side of the Dunning-Kruger effect and the “Curse of Knowledge.“
I never knew it was called that but I think you are on to something. I often reject the idea that when colleagues ask me question outside of my primary function i give a disclaimer “I am a sugar chemist, I have no clue that will help you in this area.” it is mainly i dont want to be responsible for their outcomes. Similar to the many times sports journalists have said on espn that would could pivot into a front office position in sports. the knowledge might not transfer and could be a disaster. thanks nate for the wiki… Read more »
I’m kind of bummed that no one got the Autobahn reference.
Damn! Sorry Nate! Got so wrapped up in chiming in on the questions that I forgot to give you kudos on that! And I just watched Big Lebowski again this weekend! SHOMER SHABBOS!
Yes, I was especially disappointed in you. Good to know you caught it!
I might just have a white Russian and listen to Carter Burwell scores all night now…
1. Wiggins/Love trade – who cares and not sure why anyone would continue an argument about non comparable players, especially one being a rookie. We all knew Love’s numbers would go down when on cavs and they have but still respectable….Wiggins looks good because he is dominant ball handler, which he wouldn’t be here. We also all knew Love was poor defender and he has proven that though he lately has tried harder and looked ok and Mozgov has helped as well 2. Griffin grade – I would say an A because the team has played extremely well once all… Read more »
Here’s the thing about the Hawks versus previous years’ Hawks teams, and last year’s Pacers. The previous teams all had chemistry problems: Josh Smith and Joe Johnson. Indiana had even bigger chemistry problems: everyone hated DeShawn Stephenson and Roy Hibbert. It just got to be too much of a show. That Atlanta team? They really do seem like the Spurs east.
that is what keeps me interested in them but terrified of a playoff matchup. even with their front office drama, they are an impressive product on the court. waiting to see what kind of sale they might generate. not like the clipper i bet but it will put a nail in the owners side when/if a new work stoppage happens
Curious as to your take on this Nate, but while I find the Spurs East analogy fits for the Hawks for regular season play, I’m not sure it will translate as well in the post-season. True the Hawks share the ball better than nearly any other team in the league (certainly the EC anyway). Legler even had a piece on SportsCenter last night where he diagrammed out a couple of possessions and how many times they passed the ball before shooting. However, once you get into playoff scenarios and passing lanes become more clogged, individual talent tends to win the… Read more »
I cant wait to watch these themes unfold in this coming 5-6 months genius. only an injury to horford or teague might derail you finding this answer. if i had the league pass i might watch more of their games too. millsap is my favorite of their bunch because he reminds me a bit of anthony mason of the 90’s knicks teams
Good analogy to Anthony Mason. I also think his game is a little like David West in his prime in New Orleans when he played with CP3.
Hmm, or perhaps their individual talent is just underrated. Jeff Teague? Al Horford? Paul Millsap? One is coming into his own, one is finally healthy, and one has been criminally underrated his entire career. Add defense shifting Kyle Korver to that mix, and it’s a narrative of guys who have just found the right niche. Reminds me of San Antonio. Parker: underrated in the extreme. Ginobili: the best non-starter ever? I actually prefer Manu to Kobe for a lot of reasons. This all falls apart with Duncan who’s now in the conversation for the GOAT (what he’s doing on defense… Read more »
Great comment Nate. The Hawks are underrated to a man. Best starting 5 in bball.
I think I’d still rather have LBJ, Kyrie, Love, Mozgov and JR over Millsap, Teague, Carroll, Horford and Korver…
I definitely would put up a few other starting fives against theirs and come out on top, imo. In fact I think it’s exactly what will hurt them come playoff time, because rotations get tightened and their starting five can’t compete with the starting five of the bulls or cavs or really even toronto when those teams keep their starters in for nearly 40 minutes each. and whoever comes out of the west will rake them over because of their lack of talent and experience. Not saying anyone else in the east will do any better…but talent is definitely an… Read more »
It will be interesting to see if they’re able to sustain it. While I think Teague has played well, I don’t know that he’s playing better than Curry, Lowry, Westbrook, Lillard or even Kyrie at times. He’s a good point guard, but not a star yet. And I think Klay Thompson might have something to say about “no one shooting better than Korver right now.” I’ve always been a fan of Horfords, and agree that Millsap has been very underrated throughout his career. But neither of these guys is a LeBron, Durant, Duncan, etc. game changer. I’m certainly not dismissing… Read more »
Especially since the Spurs have had years to perfect this system. Also, Bud’s a good coach, but he ain’t Pop…
The Spurs have 3 HOF players and Leonard. The Hawks have no HOf players. We will easily beat them in a 7 game series.
They haven’t really dealt with a significant injury yet and their SOS is 27th.
Now THAT’s a really good point. I didn’t realize how weak their SOS was…
Just realized a huge part of why Lebron pushed the Wiggins-for-Love trade… he was threatened by the dude. Remember how he (ominously) didn’t mention Wiggins in The Essay? I am ecstatic to see resurgent Lebron looking like 90% of his old self, but that old hurting guy who started the season? He wanted no part of sharing “his team” with the future MVP who could’ve made him look bad/over-the-hill at times. Still, signs of life from Love are encouraging — and once Blatt starts running (or team starts executing) more high post plays for him, it’ll be a real weapon… Read more »
I’m not sure why Lebron would be threatened by him. If anything Wiggins would have eventually given him more rest. Lebron doesn’t want to be surrounded by bums.
Your realization is not really a realization. I would put lots and lots of money on wiggins never winning the mvp voting. Partly because he isn’t near good enough, and mostly because he’s in the same nba as The Brow, Damian Lillard, Lebron for the next three years, Kevin Durant for the next 5, etc. He also is stuck in minny for the foreseeable future with no real chance of making a playoff run for what, 4 years minimum? Lebron wasn’t interested in wiggins because he was unproven, would take time to develop into a player with enough self confidence… Read more »
I like to park on Vincent St. It’s cheap parking $4-5 and you can walk through the Arcade to the Q. And in the Arcade they have a really good Pizza place called Vincenza’s. The other nice aspect of parking on Vincent is that you don’t have to deal with the traffic after the game.
next time in in cleveland i will check out the arcade and the pizza. it could be double trouble because anytime my boys see an arcade i think of our last disney trip. they liked the arcades better than the theme parks.
It’s not an actual arcade, although it used to be. It’s just a large mall-ish stretch that allows you to walk indoors when it’s cold.
that is good to know. that means i will only spend money on pizza and not on games that could prevent us from seeing the real game. i think a late february game is on the calendar for us but i am not sure. i can talk myself out of live games because of hassle of traffic
Agreed. That’s why I park on Vincent. It’s a 10 min walk but easy access to I-90 with very little traffic.
New article on Wiggins/Love just up on Grantland:
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/andrew-wiggins-kevin-love-timberwolves-rookies/
Nice analysis on volume of Wiggins shots. No way would he be getting that many minutes or touches here. Nor would that kind of shooting percentage be helpful for a contending team.
I read that and am drooling: cut out the mid-rangers that he wouldn’t be getting here, and make it mostly three point attempts and shots around the rim and Wiggins’ efficiency would shoot way up. He’d be like supercharged Jamario Moon.
1) While I wasn’t in favor of the trade, I’ve come to terms with it and still think it’s far too early to determine the success/failure of the Wiggins for Love trade. Yes Wiggins has looked much better than many thought possible. Yes Love has struggled (sometimes mightily) and hasn’t yet looked truly like the player many thought we were getting. However, here’s an alternate scenario to consider… Let’s say the Cavs decided not to make the trade and take their chances with Wiggins. Since I don’t believe that the Warriors would have EVER given up Klay Thompson for Love,… Read more »
“Ultimately, Wiggins may turn out to be a hell of a player in this league. However, I would put a large sum of cash against the idea that he will ever turn the TWolves into a contender. KG couldn’t. Love couldn’t. Chances are Wig won’t either. Sure he’ll probably be there for the requisite 6-7 years, but then will have to follow the model of those who came before and either force a trade or sign elsewhere in free agency to become truly relevant.” This statement implies that you don’t think Wiggins will be a Lebron-type franchise player. If that… Read more »
Yes, that was the implication that I was going for. I don’t think Wig will ever be an LBJ/Durant/Kobe level franchise player. I could be wrong, but I’d bet strongly against it. I think he’ll be an exciting player. I think he’ll probably be an all-star eventually. But I don’t think he’ll be transcendent enough to lead a team on a deep playoff run.
Wiggins is NOT a Lebron type franchise player. He is every bit the athlete with none of the bball iq. Lebron and Kobe and wade and Jordan and any other franchise wing you can think of used their smarts first and their athleticism as an asset. Wiggins is not that good
The world (Cavs Nation) is no longer patient as it once was with developing youth. Both Waiters and Delly are still very young in the NBA and need more development which means minutes that will lead to inevitable mistakes. That patience went out the door when the Cavs traded a promising star In Wiggins for an experienced Love. The way Blatt was playing the youth; it is doubtful Wiggins would have seen the floor . Guess what? The question brought forth would be the opposite. Wiggins isn’t producing. We should have gotten Love. How could we have been so stupid.?… Read more »
Good call on Moz affecting shots at the rim without it necessarily showing up in the boxscore.
#19. I used to go to Langer’s once a week when I lived in Larchmont. Slyman’s corned beef tops anything in LA, but the pastrami out there is soooo much better.
You really can’t beat the #19, that’s for sure. Gonna have to try Slyman’s though…
I should be doing a Vegas/LA trip the week of February 22nd if ya wanna grab a brew or a #19. Sunday night at the Kibitz is an absolute freak show.
Sounds awesome! Hit me up when it gets closer and we’ll figure out a time. Maybe we can grab a drink and watch the Cavs/Warriors showdown on the 26th
I might be in the minority, but why on earth would Ray Allen be the best player to bring aboard at this point? He’ll be out of shape and is already a defensive liability given his age. Considering we have LeBron, Kyrie, Love, and Smith who can all get hot and rain three pointers, and defense is still the biggest “weakness” on this team, why bring on a defensive liability? No thanks. Also, I think Love is really going to turn a corner for us. Now that we have Mozgov in the middle and Shump on the wing, our defense… Read more »
He’s the best fit strictly because we don’t need to rely on him for much. He can ride the pine, show the young guys how to really work hard and be a professional, and help us extend leads against bad teams we don’t want to waste heavy minutes for the starters on. There really isn’t a spot in the rotation for another 20 minute a night player, so Ray makes the greatest sense because he can make an impact without playing at all
I assumed that as well, although recent rumors and reports have stated that Ray actually wants to go to a team where he can be a rotation player and make an impact. Not sure if that’s the smartest thing for him to do if he truly wants another ring, but I’d assume he’d probably get more run on a team like the Wiz, Clips or Bulls.
1. I think the trade was made for getting 1 title sooner rather than later. I trick myself into the narrative on would I rather have a long title window (wiggins) or a best shot at one sooner (love). suffering cavs fan that i am, so i go for immediate gratification. 2. A. It had to be done considering the billionaire in the room probably turned up the heat on griffin and blatt. 3. Nobody. Though my son would like to see luke harangody just for the chance to get out his hard hat from the home depot kids collection.… Read more »
Trading for a 25 year old is the exact opposite of winning now at the cost of later. We get Kevin Love in his prime for the next 4-5 years. That’s an incredible thing to have on a team that also has 22 year old Irving and a still in his prime LeBron.
It wasn’t a win now vs later deal. It was a win now and later deal.
What happened to your new nickname Matt?? ;)
I know. I had it in there and it reverted back.
Part of that Cols is my paranoia around Love actually bolting. If he resigns or doesnt opt out, I might be on better terms with your points. Until then, I just cant get over the fact this could very well become the most dangerous and lopsided deal recent memory. Even larger than Dwight Howard turning his back on Kobe.
Mama Santa’s in Little Italy is the best pizza in the world IMO
they have good everything! god i miss cleveland
The tuneup restaurant/bar for me varies depending on how I do at the Horseshoe. I’ve been pretty fortunate (won over $900 while blacked out just before the TLC WWE PPV on roulette and craps). If I win a couple hundred or more, Dan Gilbert buys me Morton’s or Lola and I gorge like Caligula during Saturnalia. If I lose, I go to Ontario St. Cafe for some rally juice. It’s a hole in the wall across from Horseshoe with $5 pitchers of beer and $3 top shelf liquor…This is going to be my next article.
The issue with Kevin Love is that he’s been exploited on defense and (yesterday’s game aside) he hasn’t made up for it on the other end. All the talk about what the Cavs have done wrong with him…the guy gets plenty of post touches and has the ball swung around to him in his sweet spots on the perimeter time and again.
I’m hoping he’s just dealing with nagging back spasms that go away.
LeBron reborn has been awesome – maybe Kevin Love needs a 2-week vacation
Well, I doubt he makes the All-Star team, so he should be getting a week off pretty soon anyway…
Love’s back is definitely still bothering him. When he runs in the open court, he isn’t free and easy; he’s laboring to protect his back. (Been there.) It’s plain as day.
In yesterday’s game thread, Nate mentioned the idea of giving Love an LBJ-like break to let him get better. I think it’s a good idea. The downside is, these guys are still learning to play together, so it would set back that process.
Not worried about Love’s “production.” His value is not measured in points and rebounds alone. What, did Jalen Rose hand out talking points for everyone?
That said, I hope he toughens up. Playing through the spasms in LA might have been his way of sending a message to his teammates that he’s not going to be labeled soft. Otherwise, he will be isolated in the playoffs like Boston did to Jamison in 2010. We know how that turned out. I wish they could bottle Kyrie’s newfound intensity on that end and distribute to Love.
Love is about 100 x the player that Jamison was. He’s not easy to neutralize.
I meant on defense. Man to man, in the playoffs, he will need to be more effective on that end than he has been.
He has already proven to be. Even in the couple games before Mozgov Blatt made adjustments to how Love showed on pick and roll, and his defense stiffened. With Mozgov and tt able to keep the biggest opponents in check he looks absolutely adequate on defense.
It’s not just about the shots Love takes. It’s the wide open shots other players get because the other team has to pay attention to Love. He’s also pulling down major boards and throwing nice passes. He does have flaws, but I think people are underrating him. If Love doesn’t re-sign, however, then the trade looks awful.
There’s no chance of Love leaving. They wouldn’t make this trade if they thought he was going to leave.
I do completely agree with you here, Cols. LeBron and Love are absolutely not going anywhere. Obviously each has his own reasons, but fans shouldn’t be worried about it just because national media members feel obliged to mention it whenever the team loses.
Lots of good comments on the Love trade. I feel better now. When he gets his shot working better and they run the Blatt offense more, his production is going to go up noticeably. He is a fine player — love his passing the last couple games — and its great having him on the team. I think they get to 50 wins. Unfortunately, this probably puts them in the 4th spot and they get Chicago and then Atlanta in the second round. I think something bad has to happen to Toronto for them to catch them. March 6 at… Read more »
Greenhouse is great, The duckfat fries are ridiculous. I almost mentioned that place but, they’re a little pricy for my taste (of course, what isn’t down there). This from the guy that dropped $14 for the world’s greatest Chicken Noodle soup last week at Noodlecat. So yeah, big ups for Greenhouse Tavern. Also, they’ll take care of you if you’re a vegetarian (I’m a fallen one).
Yeah, they are my “favorite place to go before the game” , but I only get to 1 or 2 games a year, so what’s one more splurge. Speaking of which, I gotta book a spring trip soon.
If the Cavs keep playing like they are now, they have a shot to get to second or third place. For example, the Hawks are now playing .818 winning percentage for the season. If the Cavs match that the rest of the way, in 37 games they would win 30, for a 55 – 27 record, a .671 WP. The top five WP’s in the East right now are .818, .677, .659, .630, and (Cavs) .556. They would probably need a major Hawks losing streak to get to first.
1.)I also hated the trade (timing, not Love) at first. But in hindsight, it might not have been easier or cheaper to trade for Love mid-season. If Love went Stat-beast again on a crappy Minny and as other teams accumulate injuries his services might have been in high demand. THEN how does it look to trade Wiggins? AB would have had no trade value at that point. Also consider how slow Love has been adapting to the Cavs defensively (as slow and bad as 17.5/10 can be). He might have train wrecked the club trying to adapt to Blatt mid-season.… Read more »
Love these questionnaires. Not as many varied opinions as usual from our fabulous bloggers. I will never understand how it takes “explanation” to give the dion trade a grade. He was an undersized, overhyped, overrated, under-performing wet blanket. We got rid of a useless piece, a couple picks (which were themselves worth more than dion) for three pieces we desperately (see our record after the first win streak) needed. It wasn’t an A trade. It was a coup that probably caused OKC to get worse rather than better.
like happy mentioned the average fan doesn’t see what everything that love ( and also timo ) bring to the table every game —-wiggins has hit ” the wall ” / teams are scouting/ keying on him / would have happened here also give griff an a for the trade —dion just was not going to buy in / change in this environment —every time I see j.r drain a silky 3 pt shot I think back of dion’s forced long 2 pt shots—Shumpert in his short stints has already given us a glimpse of his strengths/ game would like… Read more »
I was at game 4 against the Pistons in 2009 where the Cavs were steam rolling through the first two rounds. Will Bynum scored 11 points in like 3 minutes and actually gave the Pistons a temporary lead. he ended up with 22 on 12 shots in 20-some minutes. I remember thinking he was going to “Will” them to their lone victory.
Nate, do you live in North Canton? We’ll have to catch a game next time I am in town.
I do. Drop me an email.
1) I feel a bit worse about the trade than I did at the time it was made, which was: I wasn’t a big fan, but understand that the Cavs had to take the shot, and don’t blame them for doing so. I feel a bit worse because Kevin has more bigger holes in his game than I thought he had when he played in Minny, and I thought Wiggins might have been a potential bust, which we now know is clearly not going to be the case. All that being said….the championship window in (the downside of) Lebron’s prime… Read more »
I was fairly strongly against the trade – largely because it would destroy our salary cap flexibility. I’ve put it behind me now. (You guys gotta put it behind you.) For this year, and the next two, it will be better that we have Love. These are the years when we have the best chance of winning a championship. I don’t think we could win one with Wiggins over that time frame. We gave up two first rounders for Mozgov. Was that too much? Probably yes. Was it the right thing to do. Definitely yes. I’m not surprised or disappointed… Read more »
The thing is – Waiters isn’t that explosive. He’s no where near Westbrook’s level. It wasn’t until this year that he had any success finishing at the basket, and now his outside shot has dried up.
The thing is – He IS explosive. It’s true that he doesn’t finish well, but I haven’t seen anybody that can keep him from getting to the basket. If he wasn’t explosive we would have completely written him off after about a year and a half. Instead, we waited, hoping that explosion would turn into production.
The point is – Explosiveness does not always predict super stardom, or even success.
I don’t know, he still looked pretty explosive on those consecutive drives to the rack against Kyrie in the third quarter yesterday…
A lot of good points here.
I was also against the trade, but realized the team probably knew more than me, so decided it was probably a good idea. I experienced some backsliding when the Cavs had a stretch of “can’t do anything right (without LeBron)”, and gave some thought to various “what is the worst thing that can happen” scenarios. A lot of us are still scarred by the memory of trading Ron Harper and 3 firsts for Danny Ferry!
The recent pair of trades has totally put things in a different light.
I’m glad you brought up the Danny Ferry for Ron Harper trade. I was going to mention it also, but mostly to say that KLove is a much better commodity than Ferry was in that infamous trade. That trade is still the worst ever Cavs trade IMHO. Even though Harper turned out to be just a pretty decent player, the three firsts were a killer in terms of extending that Cavs run of good teams.
The worst trade ever was a 1st round pick for Jiri Welsch. Hands down.
That one was so bad, I had blocked it out of my memory. Ugh. My word that was AWFUL!
baron Davis and an unprotected first for mo Williams was pretty bad by the clips
I kind of at least understood why the Clips did that though. They were desperate to get out from under the Baron Davis contract, and how small were those odds that the Cavs wound up hitting on the Kyrie ping-pong ball. Just awful bad luck (and some stupidity) by the Sterling-run Clips.
You forgot the part where Wiggins has a gorgeous jump shot and a really sophisticated post up game… His step backs are also pretty money. He isn’t JUST a human highlight reel…
You haven’t really watched a lot of jump shots if you think Wig’s jumper is “gorgeous”
1 – Great trade for both teams. Just because it looks really good for Minnesota, doesn’t mean it’s NOT good for us. Great example of a good player getting more touches and looking better than he actually is. He would not be getting the minutes with us and not developing as quickly… Love is not being used like he was before – he has been less active in the post and trying to find his rhythm with he “sacrifices” he has made to be a part of this offense. It takes time… 2 – A+, and anyone who says otherwise… Read more »
1. I feel great about the trade. Without Love we are wondering where we are going to get a big man who can score, rebound, and pass. Wiggins would be buried on this team, scoring maybe 8 ppg in 15 or so minutes. Considering how well Love fits the needs of this team, how varied his skillset is, and how young he is, that was a great trade. Keeps the team young while allowing for contention right away. 2. Like Ralphie’s christmas essay. Griffin get an A++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. He somehow got us JR, Iman, and the Iron Curtain for Waiters and… Read more »
Living in Denver, I’m surprised you haven’t commented more on the Mozgov trade. Then again, I don’t think you pay much attention to non All Stars.
Mozgov has been much much better than advertised. I think he’s a really really really really really really really really rich man’s Tyler Zeller. He rebounds, runs the floor, and shoots. Just a great trade.
Love the Christmas Story reference, Cols. Great stuff
I’d like for Cols to post sometime after he’s had 300% more beer… Now that would be fun…
I’m trying to imagine Cols with 300% more optimism, but it would seem to violate a fundamental law of physics.
I know we’ve got a ton of chemists on this site… but is there a theoretical physicist in the house to quantify this for us?
Hey Cols…Do you live in Louisville, CO?
He didn’t give away our first this year because he already traded our 2016 first to Boston…Stepien Rule bro.
On a related note, our draft pick cupboard is BARE. This team will be relegated to signing corpses on veteran minimum for the next two off seasons. Better hope we don’t blow our “the worse of our or Chicago’s” pick this year. Last chance we have to add youth for a while.
Way to stay positive…bro.
Umm, last time I checked most of our rotation guys were still 30 or under so I’m not sure they’re all that worried about adding youth for the next two years…
I’m not worried about youth at all right now. , also they’ll be able to buy some draft picks over the next couple seasons. You can find developmental bigs after the lottery.
Berlin Wall reference!
Love’s stats are getting Boshed, except more so, since he was *REALLY* optimizing his stats (which is fair, given that he was stuck on a team that pretty much held nothing else for him). Tough to see a team winning it all with their three maxed players on the wings, and Wiggins would be a fancy 3-n-D role player with Kyrie already established. In OKC, they had 3 max-level guys at the 1, 2, and 3-spot and Harden ended up leaving because he wasn’t getting enough touches (wasn’t even starting). Wiggins is gonna be really good, but he wouldn’t be… Read more »
What? Harden left because OKC decided they weren’t going to offer him max money and they traded him. Harden did not choose to leave.
Also, I think it’s tough to back up your “can’t win with 3 max level guys on the outside” and point to OKC. James Harden was traded when he was really becoming the superstar that he is. If they had kept him and traded Ibaka instead (their defensive guy), who’s to say they wouldn’t have won a ring? They made it to the Finals in a loaded West with Westbrook-Durant-Harden.
They haven’t returned since.
They didn’t have to trade anyone. It was a stupid short sighted move by OKC.
I was kind of following what you were saying… right up until the point where you said you’d trade Love for Bosh in a heartbeat…
The Noodlecat fried chicken steamed bun is a thing of absolute beauty. Every time I go to CLE I get it, often before a Cavs game. They do other things well, but that one is transcendent.
Stopped reading after the first question. Wiggins isn’t good on defense yet and he’s getting LeBron touches for the Timberwolves.
…last year when the statpadder Love was geting those touches they were a top 10 SRS team. This year with Wiggins getting Love’s touches they are a top 29 SRS team. Kevin Love is making sacrifices this year though and the average fan isn’t intelligent enough to realize it.
Amazing comment. Thank you Happy. The idea that we can look at Wiggins production on the Wolves and make ANY inference about how valuable he would be with the Cavs right now is just silly.
The Cavs are MUCH better with Love this year and probably next year. After that, we’ll have to see what Wiggins grows into. But Wiggins value on the Cavs this year would have been incredibly low.
Also, because I know the Wiggins fans love small sample size – Wiggins is 36% / 9% / 63% in his last 4 games.
Yep. I actually think Love will be the better player for the next 4 years at least. Love is still so young that giving up Wiggins wasn’t trading win later for win now. It was trading maybe win later for win Now and Later.
That’s what swung this trade for me; Love is only 26. If we didn’t turn him into a glorified jump-shooter, his numbers would be a lot different. There was some stat that came out before the trade that love either scored or recovered his own miss a combined 71% of the time when shooting within 6 ft of the basket. Put him near the hoop!
We didn’t turn Love into anything. Have you seen him try to go to work in the post?
Because none of the answers are tongue in cheek or nuanced…Seriously, if you’re going to comment on the article without actually reading the content, why bother?
The biggest question I’ve been going over is whether re-signing Varejao will be looked at as a massive mistake. We have 3 guys who want max money. Assuming we decide to sign all of them we’ve also committed to giving Andy a very decent salary ($10m) for the next 3 years. I love Andy as much as anyone but if Mozgov keeps playing like he is would it not have been better to have used that money to resign TT (a younger less polished but far more durable Andy) or let them both walk and add a couple of smaller… Read more »
If the Varejao signing had anything to do with bringing LeBron back, it can’t be a bad thing. But your points are well-made – he could be a costly, oft-injured cap-clogger.
I think Andy’s contract was a “good fiath payment” made as a reward for his service in years past. We knew he was injury prone, but that doesn’t mean we thought that he was at risk to shred his Achilles, a truly devastating injury for a big man. Now that contract is going to look like an albatross. He might be the next Brandon Haywood contract for some other team next year, sad as it is for me to say. Still, if he can give us 60 games a year after this + playoffs, it’ll still be an ok contract.… Read more »
TT is a restricted free agent so the Cavs can, and probably will, match any offer he receives. The Varejao signing does not affect this. It does harm the team’s ability to obtain outside help for the foreseeable future however.
Also, if Andy struggles, look at the Cavs to stretch pay the final two years of that extension to minimize its impact. Hope he comes back better than ever.
Yes, the Andy deal was a mini version of the Lakers deal with Kobe. Done for past service and unfortunately a little prohibitive with his injury history going forward. I still believe that Andy will be a valuable piece next year and should be a terror next to Moz.
Exactly. If Andy is free from the true bigman heavy lifting, he can extend his career. Mozgov and Andy will be an absolutely fantastic combo. And an Achilles is not like tearing up your knee. It has a pretty good track record. The cap is going to go way up after next year. If Andy is healthy for next year’s playoffs, it will still be a good deal. Sometimes you pay a guy to show the league that you have a class organization. The Cavs also realize that Andy is many fans’ favorite player. The cap situation wouldn’t be drastically… Read more »