On Big Men :: Colin McGowan
2011-06-27Nearly every team that has competed for a championship in the last decade has controlled the paint. Tyson Chandler anchored the 2010-11 Mavericks’ defense. Orlando, who reached the Eastern Conference Finals in 2009-10 and the NBA Finals in 2008-09, have Dwight Howard. In the early part of the decade, the Lakers had Shaq; now they have Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, and Lamar Odom. Until the Jeff Green Trade, Kendrick Perkins and Kevin Garnett were the backbone of the Celtics’ vaunted defense. There’s a reason Hubie Brown inflates like a canary’s chest when he talks about “the painted area.”
Here’s a list of the starting centers for both NBA Finals teams over the past decade:
Tyson Chandler (Mavericks) and Joel Anthony (Heat) in 2011
Andrew Bynum (Lakers) and Kendrick Perkins (Celtics) in 2010
Andrew Bynum (Lakers) and Dwight Howard (Magic) in 2009
Pau Gasol (Lakers) and Kendrick Perkins (Celtics) in 2008
Fabricio Oberto (Spurs) and Zydrunas Ilgauskas (Cavaliers) in 2007
Shaquille O’Neal (Heat) and Erick Dampier (Mavericks) in 2006
Nazr Mohammed (Spurs) and Ben Wallace (Pistons) in 2005
Ben Wallace (Pistons) and Shaquille O’Neal (Lakers) in 2004
David Robinson (Spurs) and Jason Collins (Nets) in 2003
Shaquille O’Neal (Lakers) and Jason Collins (Nets) in 2002
The list is misleading in a couple places. Tim Duncan played a lot of minutes at center for those Spurs teams, and Andrew Bynum only played about 20 MPG for the Lakers in 2009, but the list largely represents who each team’s interior presence was during their championship run. With a few exceptions, the guys listed above are efficient players on the offensive end. Players like Shaq or Gasol are incredibly efficient due to their tremendous post-up games, but most of these players (Chandler and Perkins in particular) are efficient because they bust their butts on the offensive glass, convert put-backs, and flush the ball when a teammate hits them with a good pass. On the defensive end, nearly all of the above players are difference-makers due to their shot-blocking ability (Howard, Bynum), ability to guard the other team’s best post player one-on-one (Perkins, Anthony, even Collins), and/or relentless activity levels (Chandler, Oberto, Wallace). And nearly everyone on this list is a good to great rebounder on both ends of the floor, with my highest compliments to Pau Gasol and Tyson Chandler, who are masters at tipping offensive rebounds to teammates.
You’ll also notice, if you swap Tim Duncan in for the two Spurs centers in 2005 and 2007 (neither of whom played more than 23 MPG during the playoffs), the team with the better center has won eight of the last ten championships. Not all of those center matchups are a clash of titans (David Robinson vs. Jason Collins is a deceptively irrelevant because Robinson reeked of embalming fluid by the 2003 Finals), but most of them were crucial in their own way, even when they weren’t the key matchup in the series. LeBron’s struggles aside, if Joel Anthony plays Tyson Chandler to a standstill, Miami hoists the Larry O’Brien Trophy, and the world is spared a million blustery proclamations about how Dallas won a championship “the right way.”
This pseudo-analysis (I’m conceding that stat nerds might want to hit me right now) reveals a couple of problems with Tristan Thompson. He does a lot of things that the centers above do (block shots, get offensive rebounds, work hard on both ends of the floor), but he’s 6’9”. This might prove Thompson’s fatal flaw. Were he a few inches taller, his game wouldn’t need nearly as much work. A Tristan Thompson standing 6’11” would need to learn how to box out better on defense, shoot free throws at a capable clip, and maybe hit the weight room. If he developed a post-up or face-up game or a 16-footer, he would be considered one of the best four or five centers in the league.
But 6’9” Thompson needs that 16-footer just to be an effective offensive player, and, by extension, not considered a bust. Because centers don’t score prodigiously. During the 2010-11 NBA season, only two centers averaged more than 16 points per game: Dwight Howard and Brook Lopez. By contrast, 16 power forwards scored at least 16 points per game. Centers defend and pick up garbage buckets, but power forwards need to have a more polished offensive game. This makes sense because if a team possesses a starting PF/C tandem that averages, say, 21 points per game, it places a tremendous burden on the rest of the team’s starters—players who are more likely to rely on jumpers and whose games are less efficient by definition. Thompson needs to develop offensively because it’s difficult to envision a Cavalier starting lineup that features three Kevin Martin-like perimeter scorers. Upon that jumper (and face-up game? Has he mentioned a face-up game? He should develop a face-up game!) rests his having any semblance of an offensive game, and, by extension, the Cavs being worth a damn.
So, the Cavs drafted a super-athletic 6’9” guy with a center’s game. Which would be intriguing at #8 or understandable if they did not have the option of drafting a 7-footer with a center’s game. It has been written by others (cheers, Kevin), but I find it baffling that the Cavaliers, when confronted with the choice of selecting either: A.) the 7-footer who could become Euro Joakim Noah or B.) the athletic power forward with no offensive game who could become Tyrus Thomas if Tyrus Thomas was, like, good, they chose the power forward. One paradigm is definitely a cog in a championship squad; the other paradigm is… well, since Tyrus Thomas is sort of horrible, we have no idea.
Which is why Chris Grant will be serenaded with Pritchardian praise if the young Canadian-turned-Texan-turned-Clevelander pans out. If Thompson is posting some sublime, bizarre stat-lines in five years, Grant will have carved his name into Conventional Wisdom’s wrinkly backside. I’m all for it in theory. The Who Needs Positions? Revolution, for example, is alluring to me as someone who would like to see the Laws of What Works in Basketball bend and warp beneath the scorching heat of talent and athleticism. So, Actually Good Tyrus Thomas is fascinating to me. But I’m a coward at heart; in the interim I’ll be perplexedly pacing around my kitchen, mumbling something about how much I love Tyson Chandler.
Yup at least we have erden. Maybe he will take a step forward next year and be putting up 10 ppg and 7 rpg. But thats probably not going to happen.
Well we at least got Erden and after rehab from the surgery he should be good to go.
Ah, I did. Thanks, Vesus; it’s fixed now.
Vesus, I wish there was more I could say about Tristan Thompson from my “glass half full” perspective. For the NBA, it’s easy to access opponent’s PER, defensive rating, adjusted + / -, defensive per possession on-court / off-court, etc. I would love to have this information for Thompson and be able to say, “Tristan Thompson was dominant defensively”. I don’t have those numbers, but obviously the Cavs do (plus alot of other information). So…It’s alot easier to discuss Valanciunas glowingly. Remember that the only video you’ve seen of him is as a 17 or 18 year old, so he’s… Read more »
Thanks Kevin. JV’s PER in Euroleague is pretty insane. There really are no Euro comparables of him in the current NBA. Erden and Asik are as close as we can get, but they also were not nearly as prolific as JV.
All the talk about Valanciunas won’t mean anything if the kid doesn’t add some weight. If he’s still skinny when he comes over, he’ll get dominated in the NBA…and the Thompson pick will reek of genius.
Oberto’s first name is Fabricio. You mixed him up with Francisco Elson…another no-namer from that Spurs squad that swept us in 2007.
As much as I like these players, by the end of next season I would like to see Andy, jj, and jamison all on a different teams roster. Some people would like the cavs to keep at least one of them but I just dont see how thats possible. Antawn is obviously too old and is on a valuable expiring contract, Verajeo is my favorite of the 3, but he will be about 35 years old when we are serious contenders and will have no trade value, which he has a lot of right now. And finally, hickson is a… Read more »
I’m hoping that TT can be a player a bit like Nene, maybe with better defensive ability, though not a C and 2-in shorter. Energy, athleticism, high FG%, finishing like a demon at the rim. I would be higher on JV if I saw lots of promising true Centers in the league. Used to be that you had to have somebody to go against Shaq, or Duncan. Now, that’s not really the case. Only Howard is a dominating C, and he plays for a team that can be beaten other ways. Give me a front line with some athletic 6-9… Read more »
I was as surprised as anyone about picking TT instead of JV. There were reports prior to the draft that the Cavs might go that direction with or without Kanter being on the board. I’m not sure if it was because of the JV buyout situation that pushed them more this direction (I hope/suspect not) or if it was because TT was just that good in workouts. I’m still under the impressions/assumption that there is a trade in the works that involves maybe Andy/JJ and TPE for Marc Gasol – maybe even Pau (less likely but there have been roumurs).… Read more »
You guys (Colin and John) need to stop with this Jonas V stuff. The Cavs made it pretty clear they wanted a player to mature alongside Kyrie this year.
Kanter was off the board. Jonas couldn’t be bought out. Vesely only dunks. And other players just weren’t what we were looking at #4. This also makes JJ a great trade chip.
Tristan has made athleticism and can grow WITH Kyrie. Dan Gilbert wants some excitement this year. Players sitting across the Atlantic don’t do it. (See Kaun, Sasha).
Kevin, My point is not that it is defenitive. My point is simply that it has a very strong track record (relatively speaking, the draft is very hard to predict for everyone) and that between his rating and the Cavs collective rating, I trust that info much more than I trust ours. Also, if you look at the past big men ratings at TT’s level, I believe there has been basically one bust, wihch is Sweetney, and that was clearly due to weight/attitude issues, not ability. I’m not saying Hollingers ratings should be an end all to this debate. That… Read more »
Josh, Regarding Hollinger…I certainly respect Hollinger’s basketball mind more than ours, but he advises to take his Draft Rater as a helpful tool, not as his most definitive work. He started this year’s Draft Rater article with “It’s a fools errand, but lets do it anyways.” About highly rated big men he says (paraphrased, but close): “the big guys…some have become superstars, others have merely been decent players. A couple with high ratings haven’t been able to play at all.” One reason is due to the players attitudes however he also includes reasons such as “stats translate better for (high… Read more »
Ben Wallace= 6’9 listed height. That’s probably being generous. Thompson and Hickson (if he’s still around. If not any other offensive minded PF/C.) can play together. If Hickson could pull off playing center against 95 percent of the teams in the NBA (which he did reasonably well last year) with zero defensive instincts, Thompson certainly can. If Tristan Thompson doesn’t work out, it will have almost nothing to do with him being “only” 6’9. As I said on Kevins articles, I too wanted JV, but two basketball minds that I respect much more than my own or anyones here, Hollinger… Read more »
Mark,
The problem is, as of right now, there are no center prospects worthy of taking in the lottery next year. Of course, that could change over the course of the college/euro season, but none will be picked as high as enes or JV. Next years draft is loaded, but mostly at the 2 and 3 positions (which, by the way, might be bigger needs than center). There will most likely be no pg’s as good as kyrie irving, and no center as good as kanter/JV. Again, all of this can change in one year, but it is not likely.
I forgot to mention that an average NBA team plays about 5 possessions per 36 minutes (8%) faster than an average European team. This shouldn’t affect PER comparisons from league to league, but does affect per minute comparisons slightly. Equivalent NBA per possession stats should be reduced by 8%.
I feel like there must be a different opinion in the Cavs’ front office re: JV’s likelihood of success in the NBA. As to TT, I would see him fitting in more like Kirelinko in his prime, being that disruptive front-court force who is athletic enough to deal with the perimeter as well. Problem is a)Jazz never seriously contended for a title with him and b) Jazz had Okur at center to balance out the need for scoring At the end of the day, I think this speaks to the lack of faith in Hickson, and maybe the Cavs’ are… Read more »
Bryan, Here is some random information that may or may not help answer your question. Across all 61 of Valanciunas’ games this year, he averaged 19 points per 36 minutes (pp36), 13 rp36, 2.2 bp36 and shot 68% from the field and 80% from the ft line. In his 15 Euroleague games, his PER was 26. He played the full season as an 18 year old. These numbers are definitely better than fellow first rounders Jan Vesely and Donata Motiejunas, who both played their European seasons at 20 years old. The numbers are also much better than Darko Milicic as… Read more »
His height hardly matters when he jumps like a freak. Did you see that sports science video? He was jumping 2 ft above the rim. TT is an athlete, seems like a serious hustler with a lot of energy and a great D game. He’s also got a good personality that fits. His O game needs work but I assume that the Cavs think they can sort that because of what else he brings. I wanted JV too – have you seen his FT stats – but let’s give him a couple of seasons before we write off TT. It… Read more »
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/joel_anthony/index.html
Height: 6-9
Just sayin :)
Colin: I’ve wondered the same thing. If Valanciunas is projected to be similar to Noah, why would anyone pass on that? We already have a one dimensional PF. I think for TT to be a success he must develop into Serge Ibaka. Most teams have a “hustle” center who gets rebounds and blocks while pairing him with a scoring PF. Although it is very possible to change from that formula, it is the most common combination. We can be successful with a shutdown defender at PF, especially one like TT who has the potential to guard larger SFs. As long… Read more »
Question for the Jonas fans: I admit I have not followed this issue as much as others, but I think (from what I have read) that the allure of Jonas is based mostly on his statistics in the Euroleague this year. When those stats are inflated to 36 mins per game, they are incredible (especially his rates). Given that the Euroleague is the 2nd best league behind the NBA, and he is only 19, he is a huge prospect. So here is the question: Does anyone know if numbers from Euroleague tend to translate to the NBA differently across different… Read more »
I get what your saying about what PFs do and what Cs do on offense, but those are old ideas about what players are supposed to do at their position. If we were to pair Thompson with a C with an array of offensive moves and an jumpshot, for example Andrea Bargnani, Thompson wouldn’t necessarily have to develop all those offensive moves to be a good pick, although it would sure be nice of course. If it makes people feel better, Sam Presti was slammed for picking Russell Westbrook at #4 when he hadn’t displayed skills normally associated with PGs… Read more »