Podcap: Cleveland 90, Phoenix 88 (or, Stealing Wins & Immortality)
2023-01-05Donovan Mitchell and the Cleveland Cavaliers have stolen their last two wins. Most recently, an utter grindfest Wednesday against Phoenix where they were limited to just 33 points in the first half, Wednesday, but absolutely willed themselves back in a game they shot sub 40%, got out-rebounded, were outshot, and turned the ball over more than the Suns. The Cavs only led for about four minutes of game time and trailed by seven With five and a half minutes to go before Donovan (20/6/9) , Caris (21/6/2), Cedi, and Evan grinded out a win against a feisty Suns team missing Devin Booker, but featured a vintage performance from Chris Paul (25/4/8).
More transcendently, we discussed what may have been the greatest regular season offensive performance since Wilt scored 100: Donovan Mitchell scoring 71 and dropping11 assists against the Bulls Monday. Elijah Kim was in the building and gave Nate Smith and Chris Francis a first hand account of what it was like to experience immortality first hand. The gents also talked about the free throw putback at the end of regulation, the Bulls’ whining, and the surprise that the officials got it right in the moment and wrong on the two minute report. The trio also discussed the burden of having “one of the only players that matters” on their team and whether the teams owes it to Donovan to do everything they can to win now.
The guys brought up our old friend J.B. Bickerstaff and whether he’s optimizing winning with his coaching style (the last two thefts notwithstanding), and threw out the obligatory trade targets. Finally, crew went around the league and discussed what is wrong with officiating and right with the scoring, looked at the Cavs upcoming schedule, and just reveled in immortality.
Listen below, download the full audio file, or listen on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, TuneIn, or Spotify.
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WALTON —MOVE ON …???????……………..MAYBE I HAVE HAD ” TOO MUCH MORE BEER PLEASE “–BUT SORRY WBF—DO NOT COMPREHEND —–HELP US ALL OUT FOR YOUR REASONING
Poor Luke, first it was the friend with the bullshit sexual allegations, now CtB… hahaha
OK…. didn’t mean to stir the pot so provocatively! Unless I’m mistaken, Luke was brought in to help JB with the offense. All I’m saying is that — at least to this point in the season — I see no evidence of that having happened. We’ll always have the Herculoids, of course (though I’m more of a Marreese than Luke guy) but I ain’t buying the LW offensive genius PR so far…
The DG as a defensive liability dialogue might be correct, so is Curry, Kyrie, JA Morant… and some of the most impactful players in the league. Obviously their offensive upside is greater than their defensive limitations. Learning to play defense in the system and having teammates, which the Cavs do, to make up that deficit certainly worked for the warriors. We’re the best defense in the NBA with two small guards, sure the playoffs are a different animal, but the opposing team also has to figure out how to defend two incredible scoring guards that can distribute as well.
thanks for the continued injection of sanity into the discussion. it has been in short supply around here lately.
Nate just likes to stir shit so we have something to talk about. I’m still salty about last years the “stealth tank” talk. Haha
Lol. 🧂I still say the stealth tank was a thing. but you are right that if we all just agreed on everything, it would be boring here, so I mix it up.
Stealth tank agenda was absolutely vindicated LMFAOOO
agree. hard to say if it was intentional, but it worked. The LM/DM trade might not have happened otherwise.
JB’s offense is a disgrace, agreed. But you can’t underestimate his impact on the culture and how much the players seem to like a respect him. Without JB, there’s no resurgence of K Love, no JYD, no willingness of players to embrace more limited roles.
The second biggest upgrade this team needs is moving on from Luke Walton.
What problems did Luke Walton cause?
Yeah. What scotch said.
Garland for Wagner??? What the hell are you guys talking about??? And you think the Magic would say no???
Why are we even trading Garland? Mitchell/Garland/Mobley/Allen is such an unbelievable core! Good lord you maniacs wanna blow the locker room up for Franz Wagner who couldn’t defend Dylan Windler in his wheelchair.
I didn’t listen to the podcast, but if it involved DG trade possibilities, I am disappointed. Has somehow barely beating the bulls twice and the Suns sans Booker made anyone think this team functions better without Garland? I admit the late-game backcourt may be crowded when Rubio returns, but unless the Cavs have a VERY specific, championship-swaying player in mind, I would hold on to most of the rotation as it now exists. They haven’ had enough time or health to gain an accurate picture of what they are capable of as a group. Love the Wagner comment. He’s not… Read more »
I hope you guys are all right, and that DG isn’t a defensive liability that will cost us in the playoffs. I just fear that he’ll be exposed. It will be interesting to see how we’ll all be discussing this in July.
I forgot to mention, there’s also somewhat of a redundancy in still sets between DG and DM. In theory, the Cavs would be better off packing DG for a stud wing. I repeat, in theory (not something that I would actually want to happen)…
The comment on Wagner was “who could they get for Garland?” Then we had the conversation. I agree. If that’s the return, it’s probably not worth it. But, if everyone just agrees everything is awesome, it’s a pretty boring pod ast.
are “you guys” on drugs? why are you putting such BS on CtB? is this April 1?
WCC—AS USUAL YOU MAKE SOME VERY GOOD POINTS—–ESPECIALLY THE “CULTURE” THAT THE CAVS HAVE CREATED // THAT IS SOOOO VITAL —PLAYERS // FANS FEED OFF THAT WHICH TO ME THE TRADING OF LEVERT IS A ‘ FINE LINE ‘ TO WALK —YES HE CAN BE FRUSTRATING AT TIMES BUT ON THE OTHER HAND HE HAS BEEN HUGE IN SEVERAL GAMES THIS YEAR AND HAS EMBRACED HIS ROLE // REALLY IMPROVED HIS DEFENSE AND FROM WHAT I SEE// HEAR IS A VERY POSITIVE INFLUENCE// HIGH CHARACTER PERSON WHO WANTS TO BE HERE —-SO CAVS BE CAREFUL // SMART IN THE POSSIBLE… Read more »
Agreed – he’s been a pleasant surprise this year. But I still have a heart attack when he drives to the hoop at the end of games. His handle always looks so shaky.
And with an expiring contract, are we really going to re-sign him next year? Seems like there are better uses of $20 mil/yr… though maybe he doesn’t fetch anywhere close to that given his inconsistency since his last contract…
$20mm doesn’t get you what it used to these days. This is another tough call for the Cavs bc CL is contributing, is versatile, and is a great locker room fit. Trading him seemed to me like a no brainer before, but now, less so IMO (despite his poop-your-pants inducing handle)
Not to mention his mind-boggling pull-up game in the paint. Elite at rising up and creating space… Division 4 scrub level at making the shot.
RAOUL– SAW THAT LAURI HAD 49 –GOOD FOR HIM—-I THOUGHT AFTER HIS FAST START THIS SEASON HIS GAME // NUMBERS MIGHT TAPER OFF—JUST THE OPPOSITE– THEY HAVE IMPROVED—-HE IS THE MAIN MAN ON THE JAZZ // GETTING THE SHOTS—-DO NOT THINK THAT WAS IN THE PLANS FOR HIM HERE—PROBABLY 3RD OR EVEN 4TH OPTION
I hated that we had to trade him. Have always been a fan of his potential – he’s realizing it this year.
Me, too. It’s a fool’s errand to revisit this, but you have to wonder whether there wasn’t any other version of the Spida trade Ainge might have gone for that didn’t involve Lauri. Swap him out for Levert & Okoro or something?
Damn, we’d be SO good with him at the 3…
Agreed. If Utah was in full rebuild mode, could they have been convinced an expiring $20 million contract (LeVert) and a young wing with a few years left (Okoro) would help them tank better?
But if you’re in full rebuild mode then a big expiring is not necessarily what you want; you want as much draft capital as possible, and a high ceiling young player if such is available. Okoro “could” still be considered the latter, but obviously Ainge liked Markennen. Koby’s body of work so far with trades is excellent; I don’t understand why people think he just threw Markennen in unnecessarily.
I think we can all safely assume Koby tried every other trade permutation possible that would have matched salaries, BEFORE agreeing to give up Markannen. Ainge is not a fool and neither is Koby.
I’m not sure Koby and JB valued Lauri more than Okoro until this season… and almost certain they didn’t value him more than Okoro and Levert. Before the Mitchell trade, they kept promoting them as two of the guys who were supposed to help us make the leap this year — Vert because we hadn’t gotten a true sample size with the foot injury last year, and Ice because this was the year JB was gonna “unlock” him offensively… to which I can’t help but ask WHY DID YOU LOCK HIM UP IN THE FIRST PLACE?
the main reason a GM would be “promoting” a player would be to increase trade value. and I doubt if anyone was valuing Ice over Lauri.
LOOKS LIKE HALF THE TEAM WILL BE OUT AGAINST DENVER –OH WELL——MY ” DREAM// WISH FOR THE CAVS” BRICE SENSABAUGH // THE OHIO STATE BUCKEYES AS THEIR NEXT WING—KID HAS A VERY BRIGHT FUTURE
Rest loss. Should have signed someone to a ten day
One of your best pods to date. We’re talking about hall passes for both husband and wife that includes men and women – how very 2023 of you guys!! But more seriously, I’ve had this nagging feeling for a few weeks that we’re going to look at DG as a tradeable asset by the end of this season (or maybe in 2 seasons) – we have an infrastructural issue here with 2 small guards, where no defensive scheming is going to cover up for DG being targeted in playoff games. I hate to say this, bc I’m a big fan… Read more »
LMFAOOO hey raffy good see your name pop up! We are equal opportunity hall monitors here LMFAOOOOOO
Appreciate you understanding the deep dive on the Cavs roster, I think the main problem is really the best wing at the right age is Tatum in Boston, it’s impossible to trade for him but we’d have a guaranteed ring if we had him!
don’t worry. Koby is not an idiot.
Finally got through the pod and now I understand why my wife has taken more of an interest in watching Cavs games this season.
Thanks Nate.
my girlfriend had an interest when Anderson Varejão was playing.
The Cavs might have the best culture in the league. This team plays for each other, both LeVert and Mitchell have embraced being two way players where their previous play was anything but that. We’re developing young talent into all stars, potential super stars and maybe HoF. That’s Koby bringing in talent with character and JB emphasizing long term values. I might not agree with rotations and minutes and plays out of timeouts, but shat he’s doing can only be evaluated in the long view. Imagine a fully realized Mobley playing with seasoned all stars DG, JA and a super… Read more »
anyone talking about trading DG needs to get back on their meds.
Lauri with 49
Was hoping the Nuggets would have a tussle with the Clips tonight as we play them tomorrow.
With 2+ minutes left in the 2nd, 63-25 Nuggets. Clips 1-18 from 3.
Yeah they putting on a clinic!
The idea that the offense sucks (11th in the league) is just not true. Top half. And in case you missed it, DG has not been present lately. And has missed 25% of the games. Wade has played 17/39. Rubio none. Do I think JB is a great offensive mind? No. Do I think he is more defense first than I would prefer? Yes. But Chris, your #2 in point diff argument applies to the coaches as well. JB on thin ice with our record & point diff is just asinine. That is a take that is not worthy of… Read more »
The vibes are immaculate. #2 point diff. #1 defense. Almost a top 3rd offense (11th) despite a lot of injuries up and down the lineup. With a young team and a major new piece.
We don’t really have a problem in my view. If we did, we wouldn’t be where we are. Tinkering rather than a big move. Hire an offensive minded assistant coach. Use the mid-level on a SF. Maybe entertain a LeVert/Love trade if it helps us. But let them cook awhile.
Also I fully appreciate your contribution to the blog and in no way mean to seem as perturbed as I seem
Jason i dont think anyone is saying fire JB today. But respond to the relevant stats…our expected wins is only up to 10th or 11th because of miraculous comebacks and vice versa in the last several. Otherwise we are still in the bottom 5 against expected wins. We have a legitimately warriors 2015 level roster if JB played the veterans mins. DG missing has gone better, not worse. Our record without him is 9-0. JB has not been able to integrate mitchell with the team yet. He just staggers DG and dm to make it simpler for him. It has… Read more »
CP3 changed his diet completely after Houston.
Chris, you still miss the point.
The coach is not the problem when you have the 2nd best point diff in the league.
Not correlative at all.
Yup, we’re underperforming according to Pythagorean win expectancy, bottom 5 in the NBA for bulk of the season, and missing the chance for top seed horse race.
Nate needs to just stop on the Markannen stuff. Just stop, please. Garland for Wagner? GTFOOH with that. Maybe Banchero & Wagner.
I am with Chris on that. 100%.
Untouchable: Mobley & DG.
Close: Allen
Great pod, guys.
Guys who matter. Jimmy Buckets & Morant the big omissions.
Giannis, Steph, Jokic, Embiid, KD, Tatum, Butler, Morant, Zion, Booker, Mitchell, LeBron. Kawhi & Davis if healthy.
Face of NBA post Bron, Steph, KD & beyond Giannis.
Luka, Morant, Zion are all WAAY more face of NBA than Mitchell.
On the trade, I don’t think anyone got fleeced. I kid Nate, but I think he’s moved on from his “we got fleeced” take. And long ago.
But that Jazz team was tearing down. Fired the coach. O’Neale to Nets for a 1st. Gobert. Mitchell. He got what he wanted.
Agree the Knicks look silly.
Re: the 71. 1st half: 16. 2nd half: 42. OT: 13
In terms of points & assists, efficiency, ponts accounted for, and needing every point, it may be the greatest regular season performance ever. 2nd best points accounted for (to Wilt’s 104). Fewest FGAs in a 70+ game.
However, that does take into account defense or rebounding. Or the fact that that the game was OT.
But he’s definitely across the line WAAY before the ball hits the rim.
Now, you wanna argue they rarely call it, fair. But the idea it wasn’t a violation is crazy talk. Still an awesome play. The perfect miss, and the fantastic finish. But it still should not have counted.
by that logic the huge amount of baskets due to the “rarely called travel violation” should have not counted.
Even looking at first half versus second/OT does not tell the whole story. He really started his run in the final minutes of Q2, I think he scored 10 pts in the final minutes before halftime which is how he got to 16. So from that stretch onward, he scored 65 points in less than 35 minutes of game time!
Williams has been back for a bit for Boston. Just not starting.
We need to keep voting for Donovan so he can start in the all star game !
Rubio coming back should unlock more offense for the bigs. Donovan is great but he doesn’t create (imo) for Mobley/JA as well as our top tier PGs. Once the bigs get rolling out offense should really open up.
I hope the Rubio minutes mean less Levert tho because I do not enjoy watching that man play basketball (ducks)
It will certainly mean less LeVerr as a ball-handler/initiator. Right now, he is #3 if Neto is not playing. #2 if DG/Spida are out.
Agree 100% that Rubio should help unlock the bigs more. He’ll also be better for spot up shooters (Love, Garland, Spida, Wade, Cedi), and cutters (Cedi, Okoro).
KJG JUST RAN AN ARTICLE —-MUST BE READING MY POSTS —-ABOUT THE CAVS SHOULD PURSUE SIGNING SAM ” MY MAN ” MERRILL TO A 10 DAY CONTRACT /// JUST TO SEE WHAT HIS SHARPSHOOTING MAY POSSIBLY BRING TO THE CAVS
WOW RAOUL —I HAVE NEVER BEEN ACCUSED OF –” THINKING TOO HARD ” :-)——HEY HOW ABOUT WHAT I POSTED EARLIER —THE 3 AMIGOS—-ME // YOU // BUCKAROO DO A CTB PODCAST—I WILL BUY !!
I like it! We can share the hard thinking!
WHAT I AM GOING TO POST IS GOING TO INITIATE —-WTF NOMAD ARE YOU FRIGGIN CRAZY–( DO NOT ASK THE MRS NOMAD TO REPLY TO THAT QUESTION )—–IF WE WERE DOING THE DRAFT OVER AGAIN AND WE NOW KNOW EACH PLAYERS TALENT // SKILL // FIT // ETC ——WOULD YOU TAKE S BARNES OVER MOBES ——I AM JUST PLAYING ” DEVILS ADVOCATE ” HERE ——I STILL WANT MOBES AND WHAT HE BRINGS AND WHAT I STILL BELIEVE HIS CEILING IS
you are thinking too hard
Mobley 10/10 times, Barnes sucks Mobley was robbed of Rookie of the Year
“ALL IN ” FOR “—- NETOVEDOVA TIME “
Seconding the CTB Raul Neto agenda… Netovedova Time!
Among East guards, Brooklyn’s Kyrie Irving leads with 2,071,715 votes, and Cleveland’s Donovan Mitchell is second with 1,637,374.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/35386073/lebron-james-kevin-durant-lead-early-nba-all-star-starter-voting
wow. from anti-semitic outcast to all-star darling in a month. americans will forgive anything if you win!
ARCH. AS SOON AS I FINISH THE MRS NOMADS HONEY DO LIST I WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR PODCAST DUTY —- WOULD HAVE TO HAVE ON WITH ME FELLOW “OL FARTS BUCKAROO AND RAOUL AND MUCH….” MORE BEER 🍺 PLEASE “🤪
Great Pod! Like the back and forth on JB. I’ll say if we are mad about anything I hope it’s not W/L where the team is 1.5 GB in the East before the 1/2 way point. And let’s please not give up on DG yet!
Thanks DaveR!
If you’re looking to get a new coach, then Quin Snyder is available.
Great point Arch, prior history with Spida and he did a helluva job in Utah in retrospect… hopefully he’s learned something about adjustments in the playoffs tho.
Im 100% sure they didnt draw up the game winning shot to be for 1-for-9-playing-like-trash Mobley, but Im glad he got to take and make it. Hoping it proves inspirational for him
I actually think they did, or at least if you go back and watch the end of the game, there’s clearly a conversation that takes place between Spida and Mobley just before the timeout is over… could easily see MItchell telling him “when I drive, move to the open spot and be ready for the pass.” Great players make plays happen without coaches involved.
I do remember that and was thinking about it – just feel like it couldn’t be a play for him. One of those situations you’d love to know the truth about along with if there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll.
LMFAOOOO indeed!!!
Currently listening to the pod. I think the big 4 is “essentially” untouchable for the next couple of years. You have to give them a shot to see how they work/grow together. After that it’s managing expectations with this group, and there are a lot of variables to come into play with salary, fit, comfortability with the organization/city, etc. So it’s too difficult to predict. That being said, if Boston is going to offer you Tatum for Garland, you do it now and today (even though that is not happening). If someone is going to offer Allen for Embiid, then… Read more »
Good post, Rubio and Wade back is when the real fun begins.
Such trades wouldn’t work anyway due to salary differences.
The chances of any trade in the next few years involving the big four being a good idea are about zero.
I am talking real world, not fantasy world. There seems to be a lot of confusion on this.
When is NOMAD making the pod?
Any time he wants!
Chris we might not need a replacement for JB. I dont think we did for Mike Brown to win except for the roided magic. But we definitely need another mind controlling the design of the offense. Luke walton was supposed to be the guy to develop mobley…but might need to take charge of the offensive scheme in general. Herculoids were electric with him at the center of it
Open to any all suggestions, hate watching bad offense.
Eli isnt the only dynasty of the last 10 years 100% guard Centric? Not to mention they play a small 5 in their best lineups. Its all about fit and execution.
This is a good counter. My argument was having two smaller guards has not been the blueprint but Klay is a little unique as a “guard” with how long he is.
KLay is definitely bigger and a better defender. The counter to that is tower city on d. If mobley puts together a legit big Z level jumper and or 3 point stroke…this team can dominate as currently constructed. Just need a 3 and d at the sf from somehwere
Definitely need a 3&D wing. Ironically I still think Harrison Barnes fits this team.. and he obviously fit the 73 win warriors too…
If we could get him for Okoro is that worth it? I still dont know what to make of Okoro. Could still blossom.
OKC 150 was without SGA.
Bucks were up 21 with 4 minutes left in Toronto. It went to OT.
Don’t count Miami out. Butler missed a lot of time early. They will be up to 6th soon. I’d say a top 6.
Sponsorship! Cheap Rum! Not too shabby!
A ringing endorsement!
LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO @COSTCO $$$$$$$$
Holy lord the turn from discussing basketball to nate and wife’s hall passes on the team was so unexpected and nearly made me spit take my coffee. Take notes other sports’ shows…this is how you make sports ball commentary worth listening to again!
LMFAOOOOo when Nate starts riffing >>>>>>>>>>>>
You guys have not been paying attention to the Lakers. They have been better lately. They had been 13th for a while. Utah is now 2 games under .500 in 10th, the Suns are crashing without Booker/Johnson/Crowder. This is the best shape they have been in in all season. Tank? Please.
They are pot committed to aging or unhealthy focal points. Cant tank now unless they unload them
Suns are missing more than Booker.
Cam Johnson & Crowder & now Payne.
Okoro had a lot of tap outs/keeping the ball alive plays.
FWIW, minutes per game is about right:
30+: Mitchell (36.7), DG (35.9), Mobley (33.9), JA (33.7), LeVert (31.1).
18-25: Wade (24.1), Osman (23.6), Stevens (22.1), Love (21.0), Okoro (18.9).
FWIW, JB should NOT be optimizing winning, IMHO. Winning every game, or any particular game, is always a priority, but usually not THE priority until we get to late in the regular or post-season.
Keeping guys healthy, figuring out rotations/fits, and trying to put younger players in positions to succeed & develop are also priorities. More so on a team with younger players, major new pieces, and only an outside shot at winning it all.
Plus, if you do those things early on in the season successfully, it enhances your odds of being better later in the year, when it matters most. If you coach every game like it is Game 7, it can actually hurt you later. That would mean shorter rotations, shorter minutes for most guys, bigger minutes for the core 4, and shorter leashes for everyone else. Less development. Less confidence.
Does JB lean a little too defensive for my tastes? Yes. But it is working.
But we were way better than expected last year. We are better than I thought we’d be this year. Despite a lot of injuries both years. Team morale is good. I have only very minor issues with the coach (out of TO playcalling, minor rotational quibnles, etc).
Look at Kerr. He absolutely tanks games in the name of rest & player development.
Popovich? Ditto. Bud? Yep.
Devils advocate cuz I wholeheartedly agree…but Job security may lend itself toward giving those coaches the freedom to do that.
Not sure if you’re responding to the copy above or the pod. But for sure we’re nt arguing about playing every game like it’s game 7. Optimizing winning in the regular season is about balancing the rotation, buying rest, and not putting square pegs in round holes.
thank you Nate, exactly what i was gonna say…. I literally started the play Isaiah Mobley, Diakite, Raul Neto Agendas LMFAOOO
I am also in favor of more time for those guys.
I also realize maybe that is why I am not the coach.
totally agree!
Neto finally gets enough minutes to earn a JYD award. Good for him, and this is most definitely good for the team.
Just in time for Rubio to get healthy & take all his minutes. But I am hoping as we enter the dog days, JB does expand the circle of trust a bit in terms of rotation minutes.
Still, we’ve had every player under contract start a game except Cedi, Neto, and I. Mobley.
Congrats to Elijah for being in the building.
Neto is a valuable cog. He can go into full out “hound the ball handler” mode, which really tires the other team out.