Live Thread: Cavs @ Knicks
2024-10-28Good evening CtB!
The Cavs are in Manhattan for a big time, early season Eastern Conference showdown against the New York Knicks. After three games in which the Cavs demolished their competition, here comes a real test against a recent nemesis. The Cavs’ offense stunk against New York’s defense in the playoffs and the Cavs got out-physicaled and out-rebounded by the Knicks too. Can Coach Kenny Atkinson change those recent trends and do the Knicks still have that toughness post-Karl Anthony Towns trade? Stay tuned…
Tip off is scheduled for 7:30PM Eastern time and will be broadcasted live on Fanduel Sports Network Ohio, Go Cavs!
LT up
It’s pretty insane how KA has turned Merrill/Niang/Caris into a supernova 2nd unit…. they’re the reason we’re dominating teams, the first unit gets a lead and the 2nd unit expands it. Will be watching to see if the trend continues.
Kenny does a much better job so far splitting up the core 4 with quick rotations. It’s going to wear most teams down and hopefully make life easier for the role players.
yeah, what a difference.
I was among those who thought JB deserved a chance to see if he could figure out how to run an offense and figure it out. He got it, and didn’t make much progress. oh well.
now we see what a top coach can do!
I’m not quite I’m there with respect to Niang, but I do recognize the plus/minus.
The Merrill / Niang / DG minutes are terrifying but they have been generating open looks
With JA/Mobes and another good defender (Ice/Wade/Caris) it can still work.
We are squishing people, everyone is a plus.
For me at least, the ON court number is what counts. OFF court speaks to strength of others vs other teams, but if the team is positive with you out there, then you are making a positive contribution.
ON court: LeVert +26.4, Spida +25.9, Mobes +25.3, Merrill +22.3, Niang +20.0, Wade +18.4, Allen +12.6, Garland +12.6, Jerome +11.4, Okoro +10.9.
DG’s performance in NY has me very optimistic on the Cavs. Most since the 9-1 start two years ago.
If DG can hold up defensively and play like a max guy on offense, AND Mobley makes forward progress offensively, then the Cavs are in business with the Core 4.
Essentially, that was the wager the Cavs made with the Mitchell trade. That the Core 4 could contend with the right pieces around them.
They doubled down on that with extensions for Mitchell & Mobley this offseason, and bringing Ice back. If the early returns (sans Strus, mind you) bear out, I think that we are as good as anyone not named Boston.
Let’s assume, for a bit, that the current Core 4 Cavs are a contender. And that no Core 4 member will be traded soon (FA years: DM PO in 27/28, DG 28/29, JA 29/30, EM 30/31).
How should the Cavs proceed?
I think let KA cook for a bit and then see where we are with some of our role players mid-season/off-season. ICE and Caris are the most tradeable but even still we don’t have a lot in the ol’ cabinet to trade. Internal growth + seasoning for some of our younger guys (Tyson) plus a trade for a shooting wing with size could be the ticket. I think as currently constructed that we would not beat BOS in a 7 game series with both squads fully healthy. That said… injuries can happen at any time and I think this current… Read more »
agree. but don’t think too far ahead to the ECF with BOS — as often as not, luck plays the big card, and maybe it is Boston’s turn for some bad luck.
If the current roster holds, the Cava are just into the luxury tax ($170 mil). Just barely. The 1st apron is $8 mil beyond that (cannot acquire via S&T, must fully match in trades, etc). 2nd apron is $10 mil beyond that. This year the Core 4 make just over $103 mil. Next year? $144.5 mil. Roughly $162 the year after. The cap can only go up 10% per year. Max 1st apron next year is $192. 2nd $202. Core 4 + Strus & Wade is $167 mil next year. Throw in Tyson and we are at over $170 for… Read more »
My point is, making moves around the periphery will be much easier this year when we are not an apron team, compated to next year, when we likely will be.
If we think the Core 4 is the backbone of a contender, and for this exercise assume yes, then we should be letting KA cook and see who is a keeper or not. But those decisions may need to be made prior to the deadline this year, when making trades & signing players will be less restrictive for us
LeVert, Jerome, and Merrill are FA’s after this year. TT too, but he is a min guy at this stage. We have full Bird on Caris, and Merrill I think (3rd season but partial first), but only partial on Jerome. Wade (26/27), Okoro (27/28), and Niang (26/27) are all full Bird. On our own guys, Jerome is the only real pressing one. If he plays well, we might have trouble matching an offer. In terms of bringing in an outside FA of significant value, that will be virtually impossible. Tax payer MLE is best case. And trades will be much… Read more »
certainly want to tweak.
most of us hope that Ice will take a big step up (sooner or later). if not, …
sit back and see if a quality player falls into our hands. fluke things happen all the time in the NBA — recall that we got JA basically for free.
True, but that is a trade we could not make next year as an apron team. We have to match salary in trades. That’s my point.
We took on Allen & Prince & sent out Exum. An apron team cannot make that deal.
OK, good point
We are in a strange spot. With Mobley & Mitchell’s extensions kicking in next year, we are surely a tax team and likely first apron. Only way to avoid that would be to shed salary (let Levert walk, offload Ice/Niang).
But Ice & Gorgeous Georges don’t get you much, and you’ll likely have to take back salary OR give up picks for a team to eat salary (even 2nds). Those are valuable as we cannot trade 1sts
The smart thinklg is to let KA evaluate & go from there. But decisions may have to be made sooner. If LeVert walks, for instance, we cannot just buy a FA to replace him.
We are not in a straight jacket, yet. The Core 4 have value. Strus does. There is an escape hatch. But on the flip side, I think we may be one smart move and some bad Beantown luck away from a title. And a move will be easier to make this year, rather than next.
I think I’d look to package Okoro, CPJ, and Niang to extend Jerome, Wade and Vert. Would probably pay draft capital for that if you are comfortable with Tysons internal development and Wades health.
If there’s opportunity at the deadline then do it then. If not, first thing in the off-season. LeVert really does seem like a valuable and versatile playmaker in this system and Jerome would benefit from a longer term home.
might be able to follow the Guardian’s usual plan of finding players who fall thru the cracks.
We’ve done pretty well there with Merrill, CPJ, Wade, Jerome, etc
This is the correct idea…. LeVert is almost at the point where’s he’s untouchable given how well he’s started the season.
he started last season awesome too but it was such a janky mess that it went under the national radar.
i love him even when he’s not cooking offensively b/c he still moves the ball, produces rim pressure and has to be respected: Kenny has him a little more decisive and a little more north-south than last year but he’s always been awesome with a lot of skills but a lot of variance in production.
I’m low on Okoro and CPJ in this offense
Okoro has not been rewarding our faith very often
a couple of writers “out there” have been suggesting that GG + a second or two will bring back LNJ, who will cost a couple $M/y more. I have no clue if these guys know anything, or that would be a good idea.
LNJ wasn’t all that good for us from 18-20. He’s functional though. I might actually replace the 2nd with Okoro, see if we can get something back from NOP
Thru 4 games, # times leading the team in scoring:
Mitchell: 2 (19 v Det, 30 v Wiz)
Garland: 1 (34 v NY)
Mobley: 1 (25 v Raps)
Wade: 1 (19 v Det)
# of Cavs in double figures each game: at Tor (6), Det (6), at Wash (7), at NY (4).
Player, # times at 10/20/30+, high
Mitchell: 4/3/1, 30
Mobley: 4/1/0, 25
Allen: 4/1/0, 23
Garland: 3/2/1, 34
———–
Wade: 1/0/0, 19
LeVert: 2/0/0, 19
Jerome: 3/0/0, 14
Niang: 1/0/0, 11
Merrill: 1/0/0, 11
Ice has not cracked double figures yet.
Not to get too far ahead of ourselves, but with Philly & Milwaukee dealing with major 8njuries early, and Indy struggling, a hot start could put some space between us and some of the other top 4 contenders in the East.
After LeBron’s visit, we have Orlando at home and a home+home with Milwaukee. A chance for an early lead on the #2 seed.
right!
Milwaukee looks SLOW but we have them on a B2B so iono.
Orlando at least we have at home and we should be able to utilize more depth against them and MIL.
we’re a top 3 team from the jump… Boston, Cleveland, Orlando are the contenders…. obviously big gap between Boston and everyone else.
I thought things had a decent chance of falling out that way. The 76’ers and Bucks seem to be rather fragle and the Knicks have taken a step down talent wise.
Brunson usually kills us. 8 of 24 with Ice playing under 10 minutes. The others held up well against him. DG in particular.
This is the most optimistic I have been since that 9-1 start early in the Spida era when we had the injuries.
I only saw the last 9 minutes, but what I did see was Brunson well defended, as were the rest of the knicks shooters. Defenders didn’t leave their feet. That’s coaching. I like the discipline the team are showing!!
I mean, if DG can get back to 21-22 DG offensively, AND now can D up elite small guards like Brunson when the team needs it – the ceiling is very high.
He’s always been a gamer against guys like Trae, Maxey and Ja
Love that Atkinson has Merrill firmly in the rotation. Even if he isn’t putting up too many shots, he creates space for everyone else. JB never fully embraced this concept.
KNICKS MISS RANDLE / HARD ROCK/ DIVEN……——TOUGHNESS——— CAVS MATCH UP BETTER—— GLAD OUR REBOUNDING IMPROVED AFTER HALF TIME/ THANK YOU KA ——- WATCHING REPLAY NOW
It’s the toughness but more than that the playmaking. Randle is good off the dribble, DDV lees the ball moving and is a good secondary playmaker, Hartenstein is good off the short roll.
The ball really sticks with KAT and Bridges and Brunson: and unfortunately most of the other East contenders (Boston, Magic, Cleveland, maaaaybe Philly) have enough guys to guard those three one on one without giving up much.
Not having to deal with Harty is such a relief.
Also, to the people all over who were pushing for some ridiculous JA for Ingram trade for months, get bent. Nobody wants the future BI contract, nor should they.
In my view, JA was our 2nd best player last year. Steadily a positive on both ends. Only negative is no 3 pt range. But he is a C, and I think he can do a bit more than we ask on O.
yup, you heard me insulting them all summer.
even now, the idiot “experts” are still proposing JA for some bums trades, and part of their rationale is that there were a “lot of rumors about JA being on the block last summer”. Right — the rumors were from themselves and other idiots.
Chris Fedor reported less than a month ago JA or DG or both could still be out if they don’t perform before the trade deadline… luckily they’re performing so Kenny Atkinson seems to be the magic fix for now.
well sure, if things don’t jell it might be time to reboot, but I am not seeing any signs of that at all.
Fedor might have some inside info, or he might be making up crap like most sports writers. On a related note, for decades I have read Terry Pluto — great writer, extra nice guy, has some sources, loves NE Ohio sports — but the analysis is nothing special.
Fedor certainly has inside info, he’s pretty much Koby’s mouthpiece which is why his declaration regarding DG and JA is meaningful, the rumors weren’t bullshit as you alleged, they’re very real.
I hope they were bullshit, because trading JA would be really stupid.
what could be better than the NYY ** ALMOST ** pulling Game 3 out in the bottom of the ninth?
so sad!
Damn great job managing the bench by Atkinson… played the guys that were hot (Niang, Merrill, Caris) benched the guys that had nothing (Okoro, Jerome).
good point.
our faith that a better coach was the only change the Cavs really needed is looking point on!
Good point, Chris.
He isn’t married to his rotations no matter what is unfolding during the game. JB was not either, though he seemed a bit more dogmatic about it. Usually waiting until crunch time to make any changes. KA was a oittle earlier.
It was pretty obvious the guys outside the Core 4 were struggling last night. Good game to tighten things up.
hope the Lakers pull it out tonight to build drama for Wednesday! they will have to play Bronnie, and that isn’t likely to go well
Other than the Core 4 all playing well at MSG, DG breaking out on both ends, only allowing 2 O-boards in the 2nd half, I’d like to mention we won the TO battle, and had more steals & more blocks.
Knicks have not really integrated KAT into the O yet, but lost some toughness (Randle, DDV, Robinson, I-Hart). Hart & Brunson are gritty, no one else, though.
The NYK offense is basically going to have to be Houston’s Harden offense: they had some success posting the wings on DG and Merrill but that’s not really great.
Holy crap. What a game. Knicks looked like they didn’t have enough depth and the Cavs’ took away the 50/50 balls in the second half. Honestly great game from Niang and LeVert who were huge from a defense and hustle standpoint off the bench
yeah! whatever it is that Niang does, it only shows up in the +/-, where he has usually looked good.
Kenny pulled him immediately after he started fucking up too
this is what they said on the radio, Knicks depth took a big hit.
I will continue to say I don’t think KAT is a legit #1 type player.
The Knicks did not want to pay Randle, and I get that. KAT is locked up for longer & they can play 5 out with KAT at C. Brunson, Hart, OG, Bridges, and KAT is a nasty 5. And McBride looked pretty good.
A trade/draft/FA for a rim running C and more depth probably feel easier to accomplish. The starters are locked in. But in the short term, I will take Randle + DDV over KAT.
Nice game to get, and great to see Darius have a big night. Improved strength gotta be of help against guys like Brunson and Hart.
Loved the last timeout, even though it was that last one, to really secure the lead with the ball.
Zero doubt in my mind that JB loses this game, probably by double digits. Atkinson had it under control, only thing I would question is the first half foul challenge. So happy to have a true professional staff.
So happy for DG, he should be able to have games like this more often than not. I’ll enjoy this win for a long, long, long time.
Onward and upward.
I think he kind of got hosed on it. Originally it was Mobley’s third foul, and then it ended up being on Mitchell.
Yeah, wonder if he challenged because he thought it was on Mobley, which would have been understandable.
It was better than one of the many challenges jb refused to use Friday
right, the “limited challange” aspect leads to a dilemme: “save until needed” (and maybe never use it), or “be sure to use it” (and maybe not have it in crunch time). pick your poison. it is probably best to be somewhere in the middle, and JB certainly is not.
continuing: I have long thought an improved system would have three outcomes: “confirmed”, “overturned”, and “inconclusive, call stands”. the difference would be that “inconclusive” would NOT result in using a challange.
Spida laying into DG critics. “Y’all stay over there, don’t come over here. I know who a lot of you are”. 🔥🔥🔥
what happened to Gods Favorite Mikal tonight?
Pistons lose again… 0-4 under JB
I dove headfirst off the Garland bandwagon about a year ago. Man, I hope I’m wrong about him. I’m slowly jogging back towards the bandwagon and am hoping that nobody notices me. He looked awesome tonight!
I did my share of dragging Garland here last season. More than happy to eat some crow if this keeps up!
Also the first thing I looked for was the final rebounding numbers, which I thought were encouraging considering the past track record – almost a draw, 41-43 – and now I see from the game thread that it started out badly and got better second half. When Okoro didn’t play. Hmm. Definitely think he “has” to rebound better to be a positive difference maker against the Knicks in particular.
Okoro won’t get the same minutes under KA.
Thank God, finally a coach with eyes.
If DG can hold up better defensively, it will be a huge boon.
Still, Ice has to learn to rebound better. Especially when playing SF minutes. PT will be harder to come by once Strus is back. But I like the 10 man most nights. He is still our best perimeter defender by a good bit.
Missed this, but from the box score it sure looks like DG took the personal challenge to step up at MSG – had his best game by far of the season’s first week and outscored Brunson 33-21! Love it!
Darius FUCKING Garland.
Apologize to me, ye of little fuckin faith. I been here all along, y’all just visiting
GREAT TO SEE DG BEING DG 👍👍
LATE PRACTICE/ OTHER DUTIES—- NICE WIN /—- TY / ICE GET HURT—- PLEASE TELL ME NO
No they were ineffective
Not the best Wade game… 28 minutes, 1 pt, 3 rebounds, -14
Boobie dropping Sonic n Knuckles as a nickname for DG and Mitchell 😂
Nice
ha-ha — like it!
Also, really nice DG game. Offensively and defensively.
Totally in the flow.Not forcing anything.
He kicked ass. Was great to see.
That was a nice gritty win. Away vs a bogey team for us recently. Down Strus. Behind in the 3rd.
Dang near got back to 50% FGs as well. Despite no one other than the Core 4 shooting really well.
Great Win!
Let’s go Dodgers!
And the Yankees are losing too!
Don’t believe JB would have made the same adjustments. For example, Jerome was ineffective and played only one shift
JB would’ve rode Okoro on offense.
That should do it!
Great comeback!
Absolutely!
Didn’t think I’d enjoy a win at this point in the season as much as this.
Yeah fun game
Not sure I’d give it to Wade to shoot FTs
He didn’t seem to trust his shot.
Why is Mobley bringing the ball up in the clutch,. Like this ain’t the time when we got extra pressure.
That’s my one beef with him. Constantly trying to do too much.
Dear lord. “Buzzer beater” level time out call there.
Liking the Wade/Levert defense/offense switching
Knicks looking to flop there way to a win 😂
Well done coach!!!!
DG with some great D late on.
Superb. He looks older somehow this season.
Brunson with a moving screen