Podcast Episode 143: Until We Meet Again, Uncle Drew
2017-08-22https://soundcloud.com/ctb-5/episode-143-until-we-meet-again-uncle-drew
Happy Trails, Kyrie. With the news of Mr. Irving’s trade to the Celtics we sounded the conch and Tom Pestak, Ben Werth, Nate Smith, and EvilGenius assembled in the podcast booth to break it all down. We all gave our knee jerk reactions to the trade and gave our yays or nays to Isaiah Thomas, Jay Crowder, (up the) Ante Zizic, and the Nets’ 2018 draft pick. We also discussed the enigma that is Kyrie Irving and whether this trade makes the Cavs better in the long term and short term. Playing the imp’s advocate was Tom Pestak who held out hope that Isaiah Thomas and Jay Crowder could improve the Cavs. The rest of us were more… skeptical.
Other topics included: are the Cavs’ still a finals team? What are LeBron’s plans for the Summer of 2018? (Including some inside dirt on the Lakers situation). What is going to happen with the rest of the roster? Can Boston beat the Cavs in the playoffs, (or are they even the East’s second best team anymore)? Are the Cavs’ still a finals team? We take on all this and more as we wish a fond farewell to Uncle Drew.
As always, listen above, on Soundcloud, iTunes, or Google Play.
https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/900374134999457792
https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/900374773053755393
RWTW
News Flash: IT lead the Celts to a better record than the Cavs last year! Lots of his stats were better than KI’s. So who is drinking Kool Aid?
Yeah… one game better because LBJ sat out the final week basically… and y’all are starting to bore me with the niggling “but stats!” nonsense argument… IT had maybe the best year he’s ever going to have (especially now with the hip injury), and he was just barely ahead of Kyrie in the regular season stats… not so much in the post-season ones where it ACTUALLY matters…
http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/06-01a-koolaid.jpg
Didn’t we do this last night? Was Raoul involved or was it someone else?
Last night it was Rodney Mac who drank too much Kool Aid…
It’s that goldschlager flavored wine IMO.
As Ben noted, Irving may be the laziest player in NBA history. He hardly tried in the regular season. I also saw (and have seen in previous seasons) IT get crushed like a bug in the postseason. I say this as someone who likes KI less than most of the people here.
You may not be getting regular season version of Isaiah but post season version who was hurt. Any case, getting that Nets pick and Crowder already makes this a good trade for Cavs given circumstances, even if Isaiah plays smaller role. I believe you can get an all star or borderline all star at trade deadline for that pick.
Who do you think they can pick up other than “Boogie on a Reggae Woman”?
But we got Derrick Rose who scored 17 points a game on the crappy Knicks, says the Amico Hoops observer.
Rose has averaged over 28 vs GSW over the last couple years. If it comes to that, flip their roles vs GSW. Yeesh.
What matters is that we have 3 players who are excellent at attacking the rim/getting to the line in James, Rose, & Thomas. That is how you beat GSW, attacking their weak interior D relentlessly. Get Dray in foul trouble.
Thomas and the Celtics played hard in the regular season. Cavs and Irving didn’t.
What’s Thomas’s playoff history? Those are the games that count.
I am not a Melo fan, but it is interesting that after the trade he now wants to go to the Cavs:
http://amicohoops.net/nba-rumors-carmelo-anthony-cleveland-cavaliers-new-york-knicks/
He must not monitor CtB.
http://www.funnyshirts.net/media/catalog/product/cache/1/large_preview/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/d/o/dont-drink-the-kool-aid-tshirt-preview.png
I don’t understand why it’s good business to cave to a pouty player’s trade demand. He was under control for two years. Unless you’re getting back something that clearly moves you closer to a ring, just let him sit out for two years. Sets a precedent. You signed the contract. Shut up and play. He’d be in uniform by December. and probably grows up and is a better player for it.
http://cafemfa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/HPB-Bell2.jpg
that’s what I thought the Cavs would do too – just ride it out.
Because he didn’t try the entire lasst regular season and you got an awesome package for him. I believe they were probably going to just ride with him but were blown away by the Celtics offer
http://www.paperkingdom.com/essays/misc_images/awesome_package.jpg
Or they had a disfunctional organization with an interim GM turned GM, with a meddling owner micromanaging his every move, and thought well what the “F” this is probably the best deal we could get?!?!? Let’s not actually work in this space and try to win the “press conference.”
Gilbert is an excellent GM. he gave Leb the max last few seasons, no other GM would have had the foresight to do that.
This would be the most Cavs thing ever.
https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/900520823085301761
Didn’t EG here something on this?
They were discussing this very point on NBA radio today… the whole physical/what do the Cavs know or not know/how much info was turned over on IT’s hip was in question…
Please nix the deal. ??
A lot of people’s opinion on this deal comes down to: Sacramento, Indiana, and Chicago made terrible trades for their stars. The Cavs got. More than they did. Must be a good trade.
Remember when Boston traded KG and Pierce to the Nets? And they fleeced the Nets? And they are still fleecing the Nets…
Melo-yo-yo…
https://twitter.com/AmicoHoops/status/900564440420110340
This may not be a popular opinion but I think I’d rather have Crowder over Melo for this team.
Plus I pretty much expected Melo to get bought out, so giving up assets for him seems counterproductive at this point. The Knicks didn’t want to put Portzingas in a trade, so I’d be pretty hardball-ish on this stance.
I just threw up. If the Cavs trade Melo for Crowder, it could kill me.
Melo and Zinger for TT, Shump and Nets pick?
Do it!!! Banana boat in CLE!!! LBJ retires a Cav.
https://twitter.com/JohnKrolik/status/900517585795424256
Of course!
but Isaiah will be playing with Lebron now, :-)
Considering whom they had to pass it to, this stat should surprise no one.
It is impossible to predict how any trade will turn out, and this more so than usual. But we can say that the vast majority of knowledgeable observers think it is either even, a Cavs win, or the Cavs drank the Celts milkshake. Except for half a dozen CtB’ers who are desperately trying to find something bad about it. What is the deal with that?
Better than desperately trying to drink the Kool Aid about this trade…
Which side of the debate so you think is drinking Kool Aid?
Those trying to talk themselves into the pieces the Cavs got back making them better this year…
What is it you don’t get about the fact that KI was forcing his way out?
What is it you don’t get about the fact that KI was under contract for two more years and the Cavs could tell him to go pound sand until they got a better deal?
Probably his agent and his father would encourage him to sit it out. You think that would be a good way to go into the season?
Does it matter? Cavs have shown they barely care about the regular season anyway… I bet they’d have more teams clamoring for him by the trade deadline…
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1d1VEf9aHOg/TeW1eq8ekbI/AAAAAAAAAEA/eW9oxdhFXC0/s1600/kool-aid.jpg
? We have an opinion. we expressed it. As I told Cols earlier. I trust Tom, Ben, and my gut more than any national voice. We’ve never sugar coated things and we’ve told things the way we see them regardless of what we think people want to hear. It’s not always popular. I got absolutely killed when I trashed Anthony Bennett when he was drafted and when I suggested he was a bust after less than ten games. But if you want to hear your opinions repeated back to you or if you want us to echo the national groupthink,… Read more »
I can’t believe you got killed for your opinion of Anthony Bennett? That seems even more silly to me. I hated that pick more than Steph Curry’s herpes infested mouth guard.
https://cavstheblog.com//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////?p=23024
there’s a lot of uncertainty around the value of these players and a lot of uncertainty about what the mitigating circumstances might be with regards to Kyrie demanding a trade.
definitely too early to tell. Seems reasonable people can disagree about the trade, much like our poll shows.
No this trade has a deadline IMO. Does IT,
Crowder, and that stupid pick people obsess over, help the Cavs in the playoffs, specifically the Finals? There’s a clear answer coming in April – June.
Perhaps you can explain why a top pick is stupid to have? Also, there is maybe a 10% chance that anyone will beat the Dubs this year in the finals. So are you setting yourself up for a 90% chance of saying “The trade sucked!”? Also, you might want a refresher on how KI dribbled the clock down while being covered by KT, and took a DUMB shot at the end of a game we could have won. The chances of KI winning anything without LeBron are a lot worse than the chance of IT winning with LeBron.
If you think there’s a 10% chance that anyone will beat the Dubs this year, then why watch at all?
I for one am looking forward to the season. I think there is a good chance the Cavs will be a lot better than last year.
Yes in the regular season.
Crappy week for Jae Crowder. My best to him and his family.
https://twitter.com/LeadingSports_/status/900474031647858688
Ugh. Horrible news!
As a side note. Can we all agree that Dan is really good at hiring GM’s. Grant missed on some picks but was ok.
The rest have been outstanding
Is this a serious question? If so, no he’s pretty bad at hiring GM’s otherwise he’d have a more consistent front office.
Pretty good at hiring. Terrible at retaining.
He is so good at hiring GMs, he keeps firing them or letting them walk so he can hire more!
Yep. Cavs building to 4 straight Finals is impressive.
What’s impressive is that LeBron is from NE Ohio.
Worst first round pick in NBA history is not a. “miss.” Ferry, Grant, and Altman were all pretty bad.
Altman???
Ferry improved the team here every year with 0 assets and only one year with cap space. Then he went to Atlanta and did the impossible, traded one of the worst contracts in the NBA and turned that into a 60 win team without a super star. Ferry was incredible. Grant drafted Bennett and he was terrible but the first 10 picks in that draft are pretty damn weak. Definitely not the worse pick of all-time. Olidpo is best suited on the bench and Noel can’t get a contract offer. He got an unprotected 1st for Mo. He turned Bynum… Read more »
https://www.fearthesword.com/platform/amp/2017/8/23/16187906/kyrie-irving-trade-fan-reaction
I liked that
Me too.
Some good points here: http://www.viewfrom216.com/blog/2017/8/23/kyrie-irving-trade-ramblings-8-23-17
Well pretty much summed up my concerns.
Sorry, anyone who whines about IT’s playoff performance this year, with his sister getting killed & the injury, is kind of an idiot. Past two years, fine. I saw him kill Chicago one game. Or perhaps it was in round two. Clutch play after clutch play. Amazing stuff. Let’s see how he does with James, Love, JR, Korver, Frye, and Crowder out there with him.
I think that having IT (no not Stephen King’s “it,” although appropriate) play with LeBron will certainly help his productivity in certain situations, like the regular season. I just think he’s a net negative when teams game plan for him in a playoff series. I see him unplayable against the Dubs and now probably Boston. Sorry for feeling that way, but I also felt the same way when he was a Celtic, which is why I don’t get this sudden love for IT? I’m not even sure he’s an appropriate back up PG against the Warriors. Maybe he will surprise… Read more »
Dude, you seem to have a serious man crush on IT… some of us just don’t love his style of play where he throws himself into defenders to try and draw foul calls… works in the regular season, not so much in the playoffs… I hope the guy succeeds here, but I’m not going to just pretend that I love his game since he wears Cleveland on his chest now… jeez
I liked that.
Kluber drills Nunez in retaliation.
One thing I haven’t seen talked about is the report that Kyrie wasn’t going to report to camp…. It was probably a motivating factor for the Cavs to move him before the season started. Unfortanately, Kyrie’s attitude forced the Cavs hand yet again.
Because it was speculation… and doubtful he’d hold out long once he started missing game checks…
You’re probably right, though it’s tough to say IMO because of his unique personality.
But even a few weeks is a MAJOR distraction. You are clutching at straws to avoid the reality that KA appears to have made a really good trade.
Hardly clutching at straws… and I don’t believe for a second that Gilbert wasn’t pulling the strings here…
I think Gilbert has a job. You think he also puts all his time into micro managing the Cavs?
http://blog.inversioncredit.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/200-3.gif
Since The Return, have we flipped the GM, Head Coach, and entire roster? With Kyrie’s departure, is there anything left of the 2014 Cavs roster / front office?
On the roster, Tristan is still here. I think he’s the only one.
Yep, just TT and @CavsDan…
w
Kevin McHale thinks it is “scary” that Isaiah Thomas hasn’t been cleared for basketball activities yet- McHale on IT hip injury
I hope that IT is ok. It would really suck if the Cavs gave up Kyrie for nothing.
I would have to assume the trade is only completely officially cleared after he has his physical. The cavs would have to be crazy if that wasn’t the case.
He probably fails a physical at this point in time, so Cavs would likely have to waive that (per NBA radio today)
That would be stupid.
Just repeating what I heard on NBA radio today…
My guess is the trade was made with some general understanding of Thomas’s condition. Cavs will check him out to confirm he’s where he’s supposed to be. Unless they find something surprising, they’ll accept him as is — and take on the risk of the rest of his recovery.
I would be entirely shocked if the Cavs made a trade that was not contingent on IT’s health. But, what do I know?
It wouldn’t be a look for GM Gilbert and co, that is for sure.
The trade can’t be contingent on Thomas being healthy today, because he isn’t. But they will check him out. From cleveland.com:
The Cavs are in the process of bringing Thomas to Cleveland, where he will be examined by team doctors, including Dr. Richard Parker of the Cleveland Clinic — a renowned orthopedic surgeon. A team source said the Cavs were not overly concerned with Thomas’ injury.
He is still recuperating, and cavs agreed knowing that, so don’t see trade rescinded because of fitness issues.
Damn it. I hate Boston right now, despite much of my family being from there.
Well, they hate Cleveland a lot more, and really will when the playoffs get here.
Also was thinking about this earlier today… When David Griffin went on The Jump to talk about the Cavs, he mentioned several times that Kyrie had Boston/Stevens on his preferred list, even though SAS/NYK/MIN/MIA were the four teams that Kyrie purportedly wanted to go to. Think Griffin knew something re: Boston?
Of course.
Interesting to hear about the Love/IT4 connection… maybe Love will be able to “sell” the idea of Thomas to LeBron – certainly bodes well for their chemistry. The Love/Thomas PNR should be fun to watch!
You don’t think LeBron is already good with the trade? He might have designed it.
Red Sox pitcher, Pomeranz, who of course came from the Tribe, is head hunting (probably accidental, or called in by Irving?!?!?! He drilled Jay Bruce in the shoulder.
Kyrie probably doesn’t care… I don’t think he was ever among the Cavs contingent that went to Tribe games last year…
I know he did a Tribe day once and Trevor Bauer had a Duke freak out. I think he may have had a connection with Kipnis, I know he gave him his KI sneakers (kyrispie kreme) last season.
I think those were all from a while ago and not last year’s playoff run…
You are correct!
http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Kyrie+Irving+Los+Angeles+Angels+Anaheim+v+I4e0IDJkMC4l.jpg
http://mlb.mlb.com/assets/images/6/2/0/206212620/cuts/Cavs_ALCS_Game_2_iaayrijm_ku6abzwj.jpg
https://cdn1.lockerdomecdn.com/uploads/b38759fd904ff75d6fc4318b22c9f7bd6a3d4d2a7143287f50633cfb4fdfe9b3_large
Kyrie does not look like a natural there. First time ever on a baseball field?
my favorite thing about kyrie was that he was drafted the year after lebron left and was going to stay in cleveland his whole career.
That doesn’t happen any more.
The biggest thing will be going somewhere that offers him a better chance at a championship. Question is where?
This was a response to Kevin’s question regarding LeBron. Not sure why it posted as a separate comment.
Nowhere in the West… that’s for sure…
Minnesota and OKC(if PG stays) could give them a run.
Why would he go either place (small market, none of his Banana Boat Buddies), or anywhere in the West for that matter so he can face the Dubs before the Finals? Makes no sense…
His banana boat buddies are all past their prime. I’m sure LeBron is more worried about winning 2-3 more rings than playing with his buds.
What other team, as currently built and with the addition of LeBron, can give the Dubs a run for their money?
A team with freakishly athletic two-way players… like the Bucks or Sixers in a couple years…
Are the Bucks and 76’rs currently better than OKC and Minn? Not in a couple of years, I’m talking next season if PG stays?
I don’t understand why facing the Dubs in the finals is any easier than facing them in the WCF. Once you get past them out west, you can pretty much guarantee a ring with the shit competition that will come out of the East.
Dude, he’s not going to Minny or OKC… The one place I could see him going is NY to team up with Zinger, CP3 and some vets.
Bron likes getting to the Finals. Staying in the EC guarantees he gets there pretty much until he chooses to retire… and without much effort.
I’m not saying he WILL go anywhere. I don’t think he will. I answered Kevin’s question as to why would he and my answer was to go to a team that gives him the best chances of winning more rings and catching MJ. From that I added that there are only a few teams that as currently built and with the addition of LeBron can compete against the Dubs. My opinion is that if PG13 was to stay in OKC and with the addition of Butler to Minnesota, those two would be good destinations. You said the Bucks and 76’rs.… Read more »
I don’t believe he will either… and I don’t think that either OKC or Minny would still have enough, and I really don’t think PG-13 will ultimately stay in OKC anyway. And, I do actually think LBJ cares about making the Finals, and that the path there is easier in the East.
The longest run of finals appearances is not a bad record. This is one of the many reasons why he is likely to sign the four year extension, and is likely to be in the finals 12 straight years. The Dubs are not likely to be able to keep their juggernaut going more than a couple years.
I agree about the Bucks. They are going to be really good pretty soon.
Spurs, Rockets, Celtics(hah!), Raptors, OKC, Wizards, Bucks. Denver, Portland, and Minny would likely be short, but fun as hell.
LeBron is very concerned about his long term reputation and place in basketball history. Desperate ring chasing is not a good look for an elder statesman.
What does LeBron have to gain by leaving?
Only the Banana Boat dream potentially… and he could very well have that in Cleveland…
His banana boat buddies are all past their prime. If you were to assemble them right now, the four of them plus whatever center and bench you wanted, they would probably lose to the Dubs in 5.
Right. And there is a good chance DW will be here this year. And the Cavs can win it this year.
Join another team that can win 60 games and a chip thats shaped like a banana boat. What does he have to gain by staying?
A SuperMax deal and the opportunity to still win more chips…
Boston really trolling Cleveland now:
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/08/red-sox-to-acquire-rajai-davis.html
if you listened to podcast about this trade for first time you would have thought Cavs traded Kyrie for two homeless guys who play pick up basketball and then a draft pick. Thanks to Tom Pestak for keeping level head throughout and showing that Cavs did get nice pieces in return. Great pod overall even though I thought hysteria was bit odd.
Kyrie was the best player in this trade… and will continue to be for the foreseeable future… I’d say it was more disappointment than hysteria… but thanks for listening…
Exactly. I enjoyed all comments on the pod. Good work as usual.
I’ll agree to a point – would say IT4 was statistically better than Kyrie despite a much poorer supporting cast. Cant recall if it was discussed, but Crowder easily replaces Shump in bench rotation and thats something that can’t be argued. Just think everyone thought there were way better deals, but lot of those deals never really came to fruition and were just rumor trades to keep a conversation going. I also felt those arguments against this trade were based on subjective rumors and nothing that was in place. I think the Cavs came away well in this trade even… Read more »
Statistically better in the regular season.
Based on one regular season, but not over the course of their respective careers… and the difference was negligible. Kyrie is also the much more experienced and proven playoff performer, the superior shot creator, the superior finisher at the rim, five years younger and doesn’t have a questionable hip injury. We may never know the full range of the deals that were out there, but if it were up to me, I would have waited until the trade deadline where there would likely be more options, even if it forced an unhappy Kyrie to stick it out for a few… Read more »
Exactly this. Plus if Kyrie wasn’t speaking to teammates for days in the playoffs, what does it matter if he’s disgruntled during the regular season? So he’s not speaking to his teammates —- business as usual. I think there was a better deal available.
Sure. Robertson, Russell, and Wilt plus some picks.
The Bucks reportedly offered Khris Middleton, Malcolm Brogdon and a first round pick for Irving. The Bucks could have paired Irving with Giannis Antetokounmpo and Jabari Parker.
https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/247243/Bucks-Offered-Khris-Middleton-Malcolm-Brogdon-FRP-For-Kyrie-Irving
according to ESPN, Cavs offered Kyrie for Klay also. Other players offered for Klay over the years include PG13, Harden and Love, yet Klay remains a dub.
Posted this and the Klay rumor below.
The one thing thT scares me is Irving taking a leap.
Which is entirely possible…. been trained by LBJ, and now has something to prove.
LeBron set an example for Kyrie. I doubt if much of it stuck.
I could see him having a monster year with Boston and getting serious MVP consideration. He will be the guy after all. If Jaylen Brown takes a leap, they will more or less not have lost any production at the 3. They will gain scoring at the 2 with Hayward. Brown is going to be very good, sooner rather than later I think. He has future two way all star written all over him.
Stevens would be the coach to help him achieve that
You mean this guy?
I don’t know what you’re talking about?
Gangsta!
Why does that scare you any more than any other teams player taking a leap?
What kind of leap do you think he is capable of? Getting religion on defense? Not dribbling around till the clock runs down? Preferring to win over personal glory?
I worry about KI falling off the edge of the Earth. I think you can see it from Boston!
…. you mean more than IT taking leap under Lebron ?
Did you know Trump has access to “The Button”?
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-cavs-thread-the-needle-with-kyrie-megadeal/?addata=espn:nba:index “A troubling omen: The Warriors feasted on Thomas’s lack of defense the past three seasons, scoring 108.6 points per 100 plays against the Celtics with Thomas on the court. For context, they only managed 87.2 points per 100 plays against Boston with Thomas on the bench, according to ESPN Stats & Information Group.2 Besides being a liability on one end of the floor, Thomas, a 28-year-old who figures to want a max contract next summer, is still slowly working through the hip injury that sidelined him for the final three games of the Eastern Conference finals last postseason. If… Read more »
Uh huh. Jives with the playoff numbers I have seen and the eye test of watching how not just the cavs but every team cuts off his go to shots. But we are the cavs so he will be better, because you know the cavs are an elixir for all defensively challenged players. Oh, wait…
Thanks for sharing this
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing.
This trade is fine. Just fine, not good, not bad, just ok. It is not the best trade they could have made, nor the worst. They didn’t want to wait and test Irving, so they pulled the trigger. The only thing that saves it from being bad is the pick. We don’t know how that pick turns out or whether it will be a top 5 pick, or whether this draft class will be as strong as this year’s. In other words that pick is ok, but at this point not anywhere near getting a known young budding player back… Read more »
IT has been doubted his whole career so no surprise it’s the same here. I think he’s being severely underestimated. He’s not going to be traded at the deadline and I’ll just say it – he will surprise most and be better than most think. And it helps tremendously that he’s not the best player on the team.
I think most people do think he is better than he is because people can’t or won’t differentiate between regular season and playoff performance. He was 5th in MVP voting last year which is ludicrous. That means the overall perception with casual fans and the nba writers is that he is a hugely talented player. Of course most NBA writers are pretty awful when it comes to MVP voting and evaluating player talent, e.g. Steve Nash 2.0, Jordan not winning MVP every year, etc. Narrative is everything to them.
I more or less agree with that. The thing is – would you say he’s the third the best player on the team now? And if so can an NBA team win a title with him as the third best player? Cuz obviously a team can’t win it all if IT is the best player on the team.
To be frank, if you take into account plus minus or his overall effect on the floor while he is in during the playoffs, I don’t think he will be more productive in the than even Crowder, TT, or Smith. Not only that, I truly do worry that he will be completely unplayable against GS and many other eastern lineups, or if he does play that his defense will be so abjectly terrible, he will hurt more than help. That is the worst case scenario but it would mean more or less wasting what could be Jame’s last run with… Read more »
I also want to make clear I have nothing against IT the guy. By all accounts he is a great teammate and a decent guy off the court. I certainly have no issues with him like I do Rose. His ability to work around his height disadvantage to the extent he has is inspiring. I do want him to succeed if the cavs keep him, but I fear that there won’t be a solution to his issues on defense.
Speaking of the Bucks :)… I am now a Thon Maker fan! https://thepointsguy.com/2017/08/nba-player-moves-to-economy-seat/
Listening to this Ringer podcast with Bill Simmons… there’s an Ohio guy who played AAU ball saying guys who play together on AAU are really close. He thinks IT and KLOVE have basically been lifelong friends.
Yep. IT used to stay at KL’s parents house when they were on youth teams together back in the day. Interesting side aspect of the trade. That might turn out to be a very good thing.
Definitely agree.
CLF, I was listening to that too. One of the wrongest things they say is that Irving will have better spacing in Boston which is completely wrong and hilarious. Playing on Boston next to non-shooters like Smart, Brown, and Tatum is not going to be better spacing than playing with LeBron, JR, Love, Frye, etc.
Thomas is going to have much more room to operate in this Cleveland offense than he ever had in Boston.
Tatum can definitely shoot… agree with the rest.
I think it’s refreshing to get two guys who will be hungry to destroy their old team and wanting a title. Competing for championships I guess wasn’t good enough for Kyrie, so it’ll be nice getting a motivated IT, our Mini-Cav. Yeah everybody knows his limitations, but he becomes a better player by playing next to LeBron.
No hard feelings to Kyrie, I thank him for a lot of memories and making the biggest shot in Cavs history, but good riddance and I hope we kick his ass every time we play him.
I love your guys’ idea with trading to the Knicks, taking on Noah’s awful contract. I’d even consider doing Tristan + Shumper for Melo and Noah…but too much salary coming back. I generally agree with you guys – Isaiah Thomas is not a top 30 player in the league. But the Cavs offense stagnated too frequently when LeBron went to the bench. Maybe he can spark enough playoff games. Still tho, I think Cavs are worse today. I want to see them move that pick. Maybe hold onto it til the trade deadline, and see if the Pelicans or another… Read more »
Just to follow up on the idea that IT4 can’t play off the ball (implication: “like Kyrie can”): IT4 averaged 1.5 made “Catch and Shoot” 3s a game last season. Kyrie averaged 1.1. (Bonus, Crowder averaged 1.8 made Catch and Shoot 3s a game, which is right up there with Korver (1.9), JR (1.9) and Frye (1.8). (Kevin Love was 3rd in the NBA with 2.3) Kyrie shot a better percentage (47.8%) on catch and shoot 3s than IT4 (40.4%), but the fact that all those other Cavaliers are getting twice as many attempts on catch and shoot 3s despite… Read more »
Yep. It’s also not fair to say that Thomas sucks in the playoffs. He’s never played with a team with as much spacing and LEBRON JAMES.
This podcast made me sad for the piling on that happened. And I know Nate hates this, but this is literally the only podcast I’ve listened to about this trade that absolutely hates the trade for the Cavs. I think maybe you guys should read about the trade and maybe try to re-think it.
I’d have to research, but I’m virtually positive you have posted on this very site (multiple times) that Thomas sucks in the playoffs.
Yes. For the Celtics he sucked. That does not mean he’s going to suck when on a team as great as this Cavs team.
He sucks on the Celtics, but on the Cavs he’s the best player ever.
Career 40% shooter from the floor and 30% shooter from three.
No. We won’t rethink it. I trust EG, Tom, Ben, and my gut more than any national voice. We’ve never sugar coated things and we’ve told things the way we see them regardless of what we think people want to hear. It’s not always popular. I got absolutely killed when I trashed Anthony Bennett when he was drafted and when I suggested he was a bust after less than ten games. But if you want to hear your opinions repeated back to you or if you want us to echo the national groupthink, go somewhere else.
Time to use it dude…
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/058/911/GTFO.gif
Tom, you’re in mid-season form! Solid statistical analysis!
Listening to Ringer podcast with Bill Simmons, they agree with you. They said IT is great off-ball… ran a ton of plays for him off-ball with Rozier or Smart initiating offense.
To which I (channeling Ben Werth) would say, “Yeah, that’s all of Thomas’s little pet plays that work in the regular season that won’t work against good playoff teams.”
I’m not sure how to take that comment… it’s so vague and devoid of tangible evidence.
I mean I see pet plays for for Curry work really well in the post-season. I just see no evidence either way that makes this opinion rooted on factual information.
Games 1-3 2017 ECF.
That’s not really strong evidence based on the rosters we’re talking about.
Horford rosier and smart weren’t on that team ?
Is that in anyway comparable to LBJ initiating offense with JR/Kyle Korver/KLOVE spacing the floor?
My point about rosters was that Boston’s roster sucked… so just double IT, which is exactly what CLE did. You can’t do that against CLE (TT notwithstanding).
Since when did IT play in Game 3?
FWIW, last year, Shump was 4th in minutes played, Jefferson 6th, Frye 7th, Liggins 10th. Korver 9th & he got here mid-season.
We are much deeper this year. We have 7-8 starter level players (Korver being 8th). More bench options. Guys who were mainstays last year are borderline this: Shump/RJ.
Hopefully Shump doesn’t see the court. Unless we are trying to trade him, so throw him out there to pat his stats a bit.
Gah. His podcast is getting off the rails. You guys except for Tom are all way wrong.
Because no matter what the cavs do, it is always the best move. Drink that coolaid.
If Kyrie had been traded without asking for a trade and wanting to stay in Cleveland, then yeah, this trade would had been horrid. But we all know that is not the case.
“A three-for-one trade dramatically changes the depth contrast between the teams. Factor in Cleveland signing experienced Jeff Green and Derrick Rose for the veteran’s minimum and players on the Cavaliers’ current roster combined to play a staggering 24,377 minutes last season, far and away the highest total for any team. (For context, a team would play 19,680 minutes over an 82-game schedule without any overtimes.)”
Meaning, the Cavs suddenly have 24,377 2016-minutes-worth of playing time to apply to about 20,000 2017-minutes-worth of required 2017 playing time.
Looks like LBJ finally gets some rest
Tom, I do think Cavs got deeper and perhaps better. I think Korver and Frye would actually expect ball in 4th quarters and ready to shoot, so some of clutch shot making by Kyrie could well be replaced with better options. I don’t buy in the notion of star players must take the clutch shot when you have very good shooters who could be wide open. Rose and Isaiah are role players on Cavs team, how they handle the new role need to be seen. They are both one way players, so their minutes need to be limited anyway. Isaiah… Read more »
I have a hard time believing IT will be willing to come off the bench but maybe staggered with LeBron after the 1st quarter or something.
yes, that is why I feel like Isaiah will be traded by deadline, his priority may not be making finals.
JE likes it! http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/20434277/how-much-does-kyrie-irving-isaiah-thomas-trade-shake-east-standings-nba
He loves it. Hates Kyrie.
doesn’t hate on Kyrie so much as he love Crowder.
True.
Always been a fan, myself.
For everyone saying that IT was shut down in the playoffs by Ky/JR, ah yeah… he was their main weapon so all we had to do was worry about him. If Curry had been with the Celtics as opposed to IT, it would had been the same. That won’t be the case now that he’s next to LeBron/Love/JR/KK/Rose. You can’t just focus solely on IT like we were able to. Why do you think we lost the first game he didn’t play? Because the plan revolved around him. Let’s see how good Kyrie does now that he will be the… Read more »
I am with you 100%. Though I think IT will be option #2 & Love will stay #3. I do think Love will get more shots with IT as Thomas requires more handoffs and pick & rolls to be effective. It will create more action & movement than Kyrie’s iso, thus more shots for others.
Not to mention that his effectiveness was certainly limited by that hip injury…
What was Boston thinking? https://www.si.com/nba/2017/08/23/celtics-cavaliers-kyrie-irving-trade-isaiah-thomas-danny-ainge
Also, the point of that article was that Paul George and Jimmy Butler are better than Irving, which I agree with. It’s not that the Cavs got the better end of the deal.
Boston Fans: http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/08/boston-celtics-isaiah-thomas-kyrie-irving-trade-cleveland-cavaliers-jersey-burning-what-why-videos
If we’re looking to Boston fans to provide intelligent analysis, we’ve already lost.
You all don’t see the real plan, don’t you? That draft pick IS for LeBron. LeBron has realized what we have all done as well, that no one can beat the current Warriors. LeBron is planning on cryofreezing his body. We will thaw him out in 5 years and he can play with the next round of season studs for CLE.
Good theory. Freeze Lebron, tank for Zion Williamson in 2019.
https://twitter.com/ArashMarkazi/status/900397546786258944
I’m excited about this season…. I think chemistry is going to be that missing ingredient from last year’s hangover.
IT & Crowder are both very good chemistry guys who play with max effort. Zizic & Cedi are in that mold as well. We can use some more of that type of energy.
I’m excited. More depth. Better chemistry. A chip for improvement later on (this year or next). 2 Euro youngsters. Wade seemingly likely. I think we have a shot.
LeBron will be carrying him to his seat.to avoid hip strain.
Maybe they can do those team photo shoots again at mid-court and LeBron can carry IT like he does with Bronny?
Dude literally said “the draft picks are a wash”. Meaning kyrie/booker/Jackson are just as bad as the nets. My brain hurts listening to this.. pestak is too polite bc he should be eating all these kids lunch
How are Kyrie, Booker, Jackson not awful out west?
You’re still slotted in w the east teams for the draft.. you guys are killing the trade bc kyrie is so great yet don’t think he’d add to the suns to at least make them better than the nets??
Because Kyrie is meh in the regular season and the rest of that team sucks.
Define “meh” for me. That’s the problem with all of your whole arguments. You just say dumb stuff and expect it to stick. Bc if “meh” means 25ppg on good shooting and clutch 4Q play then “meh” is good enough to beat THE NETS
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2017/07/25/the-one-red-flag-a-team-trading-for-kyrie-irving-needs-to-know/?utm_term=.732a9dec658f In 2014-15 Cleveland had a net rating of plus-0.9 with Irving on the court and James on the bench. The next season that declined to minus-0.5 and then again to minus-8 in 2016-17, a mark lower than the 26-win Los Angeles Lakers (minus-7.2 net rating) last season. When Irving was without the services of James and Kevin Love, the team’s net rating dropped even further to minus-12.8. This is at the heart of Irving’s value to a team: Unless he has a strong supporting cast, perhaps including one (or two) players who are feared at least as much as… Read more »
These are quotes. In addition the Suns with Kyrie are still a bottom three, maybe bottom two team in the West because the West is that good. Below I identified at least five teams in the league that the Nets could be better than. I’ll stand by my statement. The difference between the Nets and the Suns with Kyrie is at most a 10-15% difference in lottery balls. We repeated over and over in the podcast our thesis: Kyrie is middling (or meh) player at best regular season player when taken on average when it comes to actually scoring more… Read more »
Meh = Does not give a shit
Better?
Anyway, from what I’ve been told the Phoenix pick already has a bunch of weird protections on it, so it’s not equal. In a vacuum though? Totally equal.
I was thinking the same thing. Tom was holding back way too much
Other than “Boogie on a Reggae Woman,” who do you think the Cavs could target in a trade, using the Brooklyn 1st?
I’m not sure what is going on with Wiggins but there seems to be some term oil. The Brooklyn pick and Shump for Wiggins.
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yajdqq98
“Turmoil”
I liked “term oil” better.
I’m in.
Cmon you know its going to be boogie. It always had to be boogie.
Our Point Guard depth: Injured 5’9″ Isiah Thomas, washed up Derrick Rose, washed up Jose Calderon, 5’9″ Kay Felder. That. Is. Ugly.
Don’r worry, Felder will be taking his talents somewhere else…China perhaps.
LeBron- healthy. Cool
I like the idea of KLove as the 2nd option.
I think KLOVE is going to be a beast…. He’s a willing passer… very few NBA players can stop him in the post. And his 3 point shooting is only going to get better IMO.
Two months ago, would any of you have liked this trade? Anyone? No. Because it doesn’t make the Cavs better and we lose the best player in the deal. Two months ago, the hypothetical three player trade that didn’t happen, of Kyrie for Bledsoe and Paul George – we would have liked that trade, as much as we liked Kyrie. George for Kyrie straight up would have been accepted with open arms, likely. Kyrie for Butler, probably the same thing. This trade sucks, not because it wasn’t the best one we could get – it may be – it sucks… Read more »
I was worried you weren’t going to work Boogie in somehow. Good save.
Of course. :)
Yep. Hilarious to see people talking themselves into it. May be grrat long term if the Cavs get lucky in the lottery, but it’s a wash at best for now. And nobody knows how IT’s hip will affect his play.
I decided late last night that I am going to take the Tom stance and just stop viewing things through the lense of “Will we compete against the Warriors?” It is just going to ruin everything for me. I love basketball. I love the Cavs. No matter what else is the case, IT4 is a talented scorer. Jae Crowder is an above average defender. The Nets pick is the best pick we have had since we traded Wiggins for Love. Those are all good things. If I can stay in this light, I will enjoy like 82 games of basketball.… Read more »
I agree… it’s self-defeating. Reminds me a story about Popovich. He basically doesn’t care about scouting reports about opponents. The primary focus Popovich has is self-scouting…. constantly focused on how they can improve themselves. That’s why you hear guys saying, “if we play our own game, we will win.”
Here’s the article. http://uproxx.com/dimemag/san-antonio-spurs-david-west-scouting-report/
We got 4 quarters for a dollar, and the Finals machine only accepts bills.
Great Improvement! JoeyB has gone from talking crazy to talking in riddles! He obviously has not had any rest, so he must have remembered his meds.
I need meds if I’m to understand what the hell you are talking about.
We got 85 cents on the dollar. Maybe more when we see how IT fits and how he performs with more shooting & talent around him. Could be close to a wash. IT will be more efficient here, Kyrie less in Boston. Plus we’ve added Crowder to take RJ’s spot & he can fill gor JR on bad nights and moves Shump to the #5 wing (James, JR, Crowder, Korver). Rose is an upgrade over Williams. Throw in Zizic & the Nets pick and I don’t see any way in the world we aren’t a bettet team with more ways… Read more »
Oops, meant starter quality wing.
Nice line. I may steal that.
https://twitter.com/SportsCenter/status/900397981509332993
I would have LOVED to send Kyrie to the Warriors, simply because he would so clearly not be “the man” on that team. Would’ve been hilarious.
I think Kyrie is better than Klay, but you could make an argument that Klay is better than Kyrie. So I think it’s a fair swap. I think it depends on where they play.
IMO, no way you could make the argument that Klay is better than Kyrie in a vacuum. Klay understands his role and fits the team perfectly…. that’s why GSW would never do the trade.
I think they’re both ranked in the 15-20 range for best players in the NBA. I think Kyrie has more potential than Klay. Klay seems to be more of a system guy. I could see both arguments as to who is better.
I think Klay has length, strength, and willingness to defend. All other things, Kyrie is better.
https://twitter.com/JustinESports/status/900143908163731456
This is super funny and underrated.
https://twitter.com/BenAxelrod/status/900396020957409280
https://twitter.com/AaronM5959/status/900416695860441091
If not for the Warriors superteam, we’d all be pretty excited about this deal. Because IT doesn’t matchup well with GS, a lot of people here think it’s a bad trade. We absolutely crushed this deal considering all circumstances. National media thinks Altman did a fantastic job. I understand GS is in the way of another title, but at the end of the day, even if we kept Kyrie, I don’t know that we had any way of adding another piece to be able to top GS. This trade was great. I will be rooting for Brooklyn to suck SO… Read more »
Do we really care that much about what the national media thinks? I mean I feel like most people rip the national media half the time for trolling Cleveland.
No, other barry. No we do not.
Fake News
You sound like a Trump supporter.
I actually disagree about the Warriors comparison. IT was shut down by Kyrie and JR. He’s going to be shut down by Boston, by Milwaukee, by anyone, really, with a half decent playoff intensity defense. He was a net negative in the playoffs. We essentially traded Kyrie for Crowder and the first round pick. If we resign IT, it will make this trade ten times worse.
That’s just a dumb stance. So IT is worthless? Top 5 in MVP voting, a PER on par with LeBron’s? 29/6 is now worthless?
This is exactly why listening to Cavs fans, who would only be happy if we traded Kyrie for Kyrie, is blinding. Everyone else thinks we did a great job. Cavs fans want to cry about it.
I guess we should have received Anthony Davis and Boogie in exchange for Kyrie. Maybe New Orleans could throw in a pick, too?
Don’t say “Cavs Fans”. Most Cavs fans are neutral or happy with the trade. Don’t know what is causing “Naysayer Nate” and “JoeyB Bummed” so much angst. Prior to this development, JoeyB was advancing his pet theory that Gilbert is the worst owner in the history of sports and so what if the Cavs were in the Finals three years in a row. Nate is usually pretty sane.
I don’t think Gilbert sucks is a pet theory. It’s pretty accepted that he sucks. I don’t say IT is worthless, I say he’s worthless in the playoffs. Every single action against IT in the playoffs will be to isolate him on D, where he will be helpless. Someone will have to leave their man to help, and viola, easy points. And what does he give us on the offensive end to counteract the points he bleeds on D? Steph Curry 3pt efficiency? Kyrie mastery at the hoop? James Harden foul drawing? no, no and no. He’s a decent third… Read more »
I do think the regular season should be more fun, maybe less drama. I will root for Isiah, and do agree with Tom that he will be a fan favorite of sorts.
Honestly, I don’t think Cavs are as far from the Warriors as most think. Front office needs to figure out something for Isaiah. We need to either move him or have a defensive guard like Avery Bradley to sub in for him in critical junctures.
I honestly think Cavs would have won the finals this year if they had a guy like Crowder instead of Shump. Shump killed us.
The Warriors had no one that could stop Kyrie. They have 12 guys that can stop IT. We have lost a significant dimension in our offense that isn’t being replaced. Period.
Rose averages over 28 ppg vs GSW. Kyrie is a unique guy. No one is a better iso player. However, that has drawbacks, especially when a player goes iso too often, and Kyrie did. He was sullen when we swept the first two rounds because he was poor in both. He was great vs Boston and had 1 great game vs GSW.
They seemed to do well the first two games and the end of game 3.
https://twitter.com/3JMcCollum/status/900121369387704320
The thing about IT’s fouls – despite how he will be called in a tighter setting, I never got the sense from watching him that he was just trying to draw fouls. Always looked like he was trying hell or high water to score.
“I can’t be allowed to be held and grabbed”…. well that’s how the playoffs usually pan out, especially against a team like the Warriors.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19334695/boston-celtics-isaiah-thomas-frustrated-lack-referee-calls-game-4-loss-washington-wizards
I don’t think he’s nearly as bad as Harden, no one is, but I do think he flops quite a bit to draw fouls and complains a ton the refs.
This is why Crowder is the most valuable piece coming to the Cavs today.
https://twitter.com/bball_ref/status/900412380273836032
limited sample size, but his combo of size, strength, and foot speed makes him a good candidate against a team like that. Also he’s a very tough player – Cavs don’t have enough of them imo.
Fair point.
https://twitter.com/RealGM/status/900411971014545408
That’s not as good IT, Crowder, and Nets pick imo.
Hm, its close tho right?
Disagree. I think Thomas is completely and utterly useless.
Right. The guy who was the 3rd leading scorer in the league & best player on a team that had a better record than the Cavs, despite only 1 all-star, is useless? Oh, there is something useless alright, it is not IT.
So you think Brogdon is better than IT4? That’s a hard sell for me. Is Middleton better than Crowder? They’re statistically very similar. Is the Bucks first round pick going to be better than the Nets first round pick? No.
Will Thomas still get the calls now that he’s on a LeBron team? Or are those touch fouls reserved only for the warriors?
He won’t get those calls in the playoffs.
The Kraken should make a mighty return. Thomas is much more of a downhill driver than Kyrie. LeBron trailing or weak side for the tomahawk jams would make me giddy
Yep
The other thing that bothers me about IT is that he relys on getting foul calls. That works more often in the regular season, and not so much in the playoffs. I feel the same way about Harden, who is worse at this flopping tactic.
Pretty sure IT was top five or maybe top 3 for FTA last year. Again bodes well for the “meaningless” regular season.
He was 7th.
https://www.sportingcharts.com/nba/stats/player-free-throw-attempts-per-game/2016/
Apparently the Cavs tried to trade Irving to the Dubs for Klay Thompson.
Yeah… why in the world would the Dubs do that???
I’m loathing the prospect of a Derrick Rose as the third ball-handling guard because Rose and IT pretty much shouldn’t share the floor with their defensive shortcomings and the fact that neither are a good off-the-ball player. Feel like Rose and Calderon (HAHAHAHA and Felder) are the worst bench guards to pair with Thomas. Ugh. And I forgot about Shump.
Every Rose has its thorn!
Then throw in Jeff Green!