Live Thread: Pacers @ Cavs
2022-12-16Good evening CtB!
First off apologies for the lack of recaps this past week, life is getting in the way but stay tuned for some retrospectives as soon as yours truly can kick this nasty cold virus. The Cavs welcome the Indiana Pacers to the shores of Lake Erie. The Pacers are one of the more surprising stories of this NBA season, with Rick Carlisle guiding his squad to an over .500 record in spite of all the speculation that they’d be tanking for Wemby or Scoot. They were able to snag Tyrese Haliburton and Buddy Hield from the Sacramento Kings, and drafted one of the more impressive rookies in this class in Bennedict Mathurin. The future is looking solid for the Hoosier State team, although they will have to make a decision about Myles Turner’s future with the team. The Pacers being 7-8 point underdogs seems very off as the Pacers have always given the Cavs a good test. Yours truly expects no different tonight.
This game will be a clash of styles as the Cavs will look to slow this game to a dirge and dominate the paint, whereas the Pacers want to run and launch threes… styles make fights so this should be a great test regarding whether the Cavs can impose their will (or not) on their opponent.
INJURY UPDATES:
#Cavs head coach J.B. Bickerstaff said that having the next six games at home will help a lot in regard to Ricky Rubio's recovery and return to the floor.
Bickerstaff said that the hope is for Rubio to practice with the team in some capacity on Tuesday.
— Evan Dammarell (@AmNotEvan) December 16, 2022
#Cavs head coach J.B. Bickerstaff shared that Dean Wade is slowly progressing from his left shoulder injury.
— Evan Dammarell (@AmNotEvan) December 16, 2022
Tip off is scheduled for 7:30PM Eastern time and will be broadcasted live on Bally Sports Ohio/Great Lakes, GO CAVS!
LT up, Go Browns!!!
My last JB apologist post. I just think he, philosophically, is trying to establish a defensive identity. He believes defense wins championships. Our 2 best scorers are 6’1″ guards who are not great defenders and need pushed on that end. Constantly. Our interior D is great with JA & EM, post perimeter D with DG & DM is weak (and small). He is gonna make defense a requirement for the starting SF (LeVert, Wade, Okoro, Stevens, Diakite) and will generally play guys who play good D more than guys with questionable D who are better offensively. Though he will ride… Read more »
100% agree re: JB being defense first, no question
that’s how he landed on the Okoro/Stevens/Allen lineup that was awful in the first half.
That’s also how he landed on the #1 defensive team in the NBA, with the 2nd best point differential, and the 3rd most wins.
Talk about not being able to see the forest for the trees.
Are you kidding me with this dumb bullshit??? LMFAOOO
JA and Mobley are the reason not JB LMFAOOOO
Cavs 8.5 point favorites tonight
Hopefully we TCB (take care of business) early and are looking at Neto & Lopez in the 4th.
that is when I would be hoping the coach would put me in!
Had to rewatch those last 10 minutes! One thing I noticed is the Pacers looked to trap Darius when he crossed half court on the Cavs’ second to last possession (up 117-112), and the Cavs clearly were prepared for this. As soon as the two Pacers made their move towards Darius, Mobley moved from left corner to the top of the key, and when Darius passed it to him Mobley already knew where Jarrett was and whipped almost a no-look to him to draw the shooting foul.
I think the Cavs are VERY confident in Mobley’s ability to get it at the top of the key and distribute when we have a man advantage out of traps/double teams/blitzes.
Mobes is gonna make mistakes, but the vision, ball-handling, and passing ability are there. The better he gets, the more reluctant teams will be to trap/blitz DG or Mitchell.
what a class act spida be.. impressive from every angle.. the 216 is very blessed to have the fellow representing the city and supporting the growth of the young talent.. he is the anti-kray-rie
https://twitter.com/cayleighgriffin/status/1604165479102177282?s=20&t=IjqsRH2ZifNRcom0YFpClw
We should wind this but this could become a trap game.
might get a Neto sighting!!!
I think we know better after SA. It’s really interesting that we have the second best point diff in the NBA. Our losses have been really tough but we are still in pretty much every game, including the MIL and MIN games for a half or so each
TOTALLY L AGREE WITH YOU CLF ON JB BEING REPRIMANDED FOR BENCHING CEDI —-TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR// UNPROFESSIONAL —–AS A COACH YOU HAVE A ‘ MANO ON MANO ” TALK WITH YOUR PLAYER(S) AND LET THEM KNOW WHAT IS EXPECTED OUT OF THEM ——TOTALLY IGNORING THEM IS TOTALLY ” IGNORANT ” !!!—–CAN YOU HEAR ALL OF US HERE AT CTB JB
Saw a stat on ESPN that Cedi Osman has the BEST total plus/minus of any player coming off the bench in the NBA. I was kind of surprised by that but is proof he should be getting regular minutes for sure.
Look, I get the criticism if JB & not playing Cedi some nights. But it should be noted, the game you are griping about Cedi not playing, we won by 15. Whatever “matchup” JB was wanting in that game, it worked. IMHO, you guys look silly b!tching about the rotations in a game we won comfortably. Furthermore, the player who did not play responded well and played great the very next game. And helped us win. You guys take that as evidence he should have played the night before. I take it as evidence the coach worked the matchups and… Read more »
thanks for the much needed sanity
???? We lost to the Spurs LMFAOOOO
The Spurs game it looked like Cedi got benched for something he did early in the game. Hard to tell, but he played only 7 minutes. Mavs game, obviously, was an intentional adjustment to the Luka matchup. Last night, it was Stevens getting cooked on D, not for lack of effort but he’s just not quick enough for the Pacers’ wings. He was the only significant “-“ (-11) but played 22 mins. I think at minimum JB gives a longer leash to some guys than others.
I think it’s more about not burning out your starters in November and December. Tighter lineups makes more sense at the end of the season IMO.
His tactical adjustments when down or in close games are just to play DG, DM, Mobley, and Allen more. That is bad tactical coaching. Actually that isn’t coaching. Anyone can grind their best guys to dust to win a few more regular season games or to compensate for lack of creativity on offense.
yup, Cedi deserved a shot at the starting 3 job after Wade went down.
Cedi’s best moments have been coming off the bench. Why mess with what is working?
because he earned it by playing well, that’s how things work in sports.
Winning the title is the goal, not worrying about who has earned what.
???? you win a title by playing the guys who have earned their minutes by playing well???
WAS THINKING THE SAME SCOTCH—CARIS WAS A +17—-THINK HE IS VERY UNDERRATED AS HIS IMPORTANCE TO THIS TEAM—–HOPING KLOVE HEALS AND CAN RETURN TO LAST SEASONS FORM—-IF JB SITS// IGNORES CEDI AGAIN// HE SHOULD BE FIRED !!!
Caris has emerged as an essential swiss army knife in the cavs current season. He plays shockingly good defense and has the ability to relieve the ball handling and initiating tasks from DG and DM. And also…he can find angles I dont remember any cav finding for layups since Kyrie Irving. And his passing is elite. The cavs dont have a personell problem. They are deep as all get out. They have a lineup construction problem. When JB plays 9-10 guys and gives our guards rest we are lethal finishing a game. But when he fails to choose the right… Read more »
Amen Scotch… agree on both counts. Caris’ ability to drive into the paint and pass is massive for our big buys, he gets free dunks for Tower City all the time. Also he was the only player who could stay in front of Hali with any consistency.
Benching Cedi was egregiously dumb, JB should’ve been reprimanded for that by someone, ANYONE.
Caris and Mobley becoming good secondary playmakers / passers means it’s over
THATS RIGHT MRSTEAL LETS GOOOOOOOO
Small sample size alerts, but just for fun, compare lineup date with the Core 4 + 1. Minutes played, and the +/-.
LeVert: 118:59; +4.4
Stevens: 109:41; -1.5
Osman: 12:37; +58.0
Wade: 6.1 min: -7.0
Okoro: 8.4 min; -1.8
How small do you mean? Cuz if this is the current season…JB should probably be fired. Without garland available in bet Cedi’s stats get even more egregious
Well, there have not been that many games with DG, Mitchell, and Allen all available. Wade is also now hurt.
JB is doing a great job.
+/- is a reductionary stat that means little to nothing in small sample sizes (which was the point I was trying to make). Some people use it WAAAY to much. Especially the versions that expand/project it to 48/36 min.
I mean, it is worth noting. But I put much more stock in the 2-3-4 man lineup data because it has larger sample sizes.
For instance, though the sample sizes are still relatively low:
DG, DM, EM, JA: 277 min, +3.8. That’s proof of concept that the core 4 works, regardless of who the 5th is.
DM, CL, EM, JA: 252 minutes, +9.0. Proof of concept that LeVert works well with 2 bigs + DM. If you are evaluating if he is worth keeping, that is good preliminary data.
I like AT LEAST 250 min (5 games) of a lineup together. I’d prefer 500 or more (especially for 2-3-4 man lineups). Tougher for 5 man groups to get that # of min.
I want to see how DG+DM works with one big. Better with one rather than the other? Does it depend on whi the 4th/5th are? Then throw Caris in there. Either as the 4th or instead of DM or DG. How does that work?
Conversely, how do 2 bigs work with only one of DG/DM? About the same? Throw Caris in there. As the 4th or instead of DG/DM. How does that look?
Again, I am always going to hesitate to draw conclusions too early. The sample size is small. We brought in a big new piece that is not that familiar with the other guys. LeVert is pretty new as well. Plus it is a young team that is still growing their games, and the league is learning/adjusting to them in new ways. We have had guys in and out of the lineup. Hard to find a groove.
OK, caveats done: the team overall is +6.1.
DG, DM, EM, JA: 277, +3.8
DG, CL, EM, JA: 172, +5.3
DM, CL, EM, JA: 252, +9.0
——————–
DG, DM, CL, JA: 152, +6.2
DG, DM, CL, EM: 172, +3.3
Good news. We are net positive with the core 4, or 3 if the core 4 + LeVert in any combo. This points strongly to Caris being a keeper. Early days, however.
Best 4 man (of the top 20 in MP):
DM, CL, DW, JA: 88 min, +28.5
DG, IO, CO, EM: 89 min, +26.2
DM, CL, DW, EM: 78 min +25.7
DM, CL, CO, JA: 79 min, +22.0
DM, CL, KL, JA: 74 min, +15.7
DM, DW, EM, JA: 75 min, +15.0
DM, CO, EM, JA: 69 min, +12.1
CL, DW, EM, JA: 69 min, +10.6
DM, CL, EM, JA: 252 min, +9.0
DG, DM, CL, JA: 152 min, +6.2
Those are the 10 4 man lineups that are above the team net of +6.1.
# of appearances in them, per player:
8: Mitchell, Allen
7: LeVert
6: Mobley
4: Wade
3: Osman
2: Garland
1: Okoro, Love
Most played 4 man lineups:
DG, DM, EM, JA: 277 min, +3.8
DM, CL, EM, JA: 252 min, +9.0
DG, DM, LS, EM: 186 min, +0.2
DG, DM, CL, EM: 172 min, +3.3
DG, CL, EM, JA: 172 min, +5.3
DG, LS, EM, JA: 170 min, +4.2
DG, DM, CL, JA: 152 min, +6.2
DG, DM, LS, JA: 136 min, +0.4
DM, LS, EM, JA: 134 min, +1.3
Everything else is under 100.
I really like your analysis, Jason. Perhaps there is something about CL+DM that really clicks. Overall, a pretty convincing case for Levert (which runs against my bias). I’m with you that as the season progresses and the minutes pile up, it will be interesting to revisit this. Right now, one or two blowout wins would probably skew things too much.
Yep. Or a bad stretch where we are cold and the other team scorching. Or one lineup got a lot of minutes vs Orlando and Detroit while another got Milwaukee and GSW.
I want enough minutes together where hot/cold streaks and opponent strength even out. On the 5 man ones, we are not there yet. 4 man, just starting to get there for the most used ones.
Another thing, that can be frustrating about JB, is that he leans hard into defense first. By some metrics we are the #1 defensive team in the league. The guys JB has started at SF (LeVert, Wade, Stevens, Diakite) are all plus defenders (DW, LS, MD) or have played like it this year (CL).
But we really struggle to find that 3rd scorer. Especially on the perimeter. Mobley is not there yet (though his 2pt efficiency/FG% is up 5 pts). We ignore Allen too much for me. More than a dunker IMHO. Neither provides spacing even when scoring.
So when someone does give us that 3rd option from deep, we get a huge bump. We can beat anyone, and have. We blow teams away. LeVert drops 41. Love goes nuts. Wade makes multiple 3s. Cedi gets hot & sparks us. Heck, even Stevens & Okoro have done it a time or two (14-18 pts).
But none of them do it consistently. Consistently enough for the D to not leave them on the perimeter. Love won’t get left, but he has obvious defensive issues, cannot play big minutes, and has been chilly since the injury.
Part of it is how teams play us. If they play the 5th guy honestly, they get roasted by DG penetration/P&R or Mitchell kills them. Even with 2 non-stretch bigs out there. So teams are gonna play off LeVert, Osman, Wade, Stevens, Diakite, or Okoro. Clog the lane, and try to make life hard for JA/EM inside and limit DG/DM to jumpers and hope for an off night. None of those guys are really good enough shooters for teams to change their approach. JB knows this and usually opts for the best 3PT threats who can also shoot/space some (LeVert… Read more »
Where is gets dicey is that if due to injuries or needing Caris to run the bench unit, JB opts for the better defending/more offensively challenged Stevens/Okoro rather than the better shooting/worse defensively Osman. Cedi has to be scorching to stay on the court.
We all see us blow people away when he gets hot or sparks us and want more of it. While the wins with Stevens/Okoro getting those minutes are laborious affairs where we rely on Spida/DG to carry us on O & elite D.
But I get what JB does, even if I don’t always agree. You need someone to play some perimeter D. JA & Mobley cannot erase everything, and DG & DM are often pretty porous on D. Love is poor, and Cedi’s awareness isn’t always the best. With Wade & Rubio out, JB still prefers the better defender to play more minutes. Play elite D to keep us in it & hope for: a) Spida/DG/JA/EM to score enough to keep us in it or even win it. b) A good night on O from LS/IO c) A big spark from Love/Cedi… Read more »
But if DG or Mitchell are off, it can get ugly quick.
The something that clicks about CL + DM is the defense…. Donovan’s not a good defender, but is strong and body up PGs pretty well, and Caris is 6’6″ and athletic.
Eye test says Allen due to him being a much better screener than EM but who knows
Caris/DG/Spida/Mobley/JA lineup was +104.9 tonight LFMAOOOO
honorable mention caris/Love/cedi/mobley/garland +20.8
AD injured….foot.
Good win. Caught the replay. Indy plays very physical and moves bodies on offense. Not surprising with a Carlisle team. Mathurin is going to be special. Haliburton has tremendous vision (that one literal no look pass was wild). DM and Mobley were incredible and DG was good in the second half. Cedi was extremely impactful in various parts of the game. Loved the refusal to give up the ball after DM got called for the foul on Mathurin. They showed some lockdown d in the second half of the fourth and some great hustle. Also Mobley really seems to have… Read more »
Mobes really has been more aggressive on the boards as the season progresses. Great to see.
Mobes 2022 vs 2021:
PPG/RPG/APG/SPG/BPG
2021: 15.0/8.3/2.5/0.8/1.7 in 33.8 mpg.
2022: 15.1/9.4/2.6/0.8/1.4 in 34.4mpg.
FG%/3PT%/FT%, 2PT%, FGA/G, 3PTA/G, TS%
2021: 50.8/25.0/66.3, 54.1, 12.0, 1.3, 54.9
2022: 55.8/25.0/69.9, 59.1, 10.9, 1.1, 60.0
Boards are up. 2PT FG% & FG% way up. More efficient. FT% up. Andit seems he’s taken, and made, more crunch time 3’s. No evidence for the latter.
I’m here for the corn.
https://twitter.com/chrisfedor/status/1603961121475543042?s=46&t=uPXueiGg-5YThMMjSPNMfw
Haha love the corn!
screw Chris’ editorializing that’s goes hard, Fedor’s the corny one!
Not corny. That was a big moment.
Lowe likes what he is seeing from Mobley:
https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/35260889/lowe-10-things-superstar-arrivals-cleveland-memphis-epic-rip-fail-workable-russ
I thought the title was referencing Mitchell, but nope. Mobley. If he ever gets to the point where he is a respectable 3PT shooter, we’ll be unbelievably good as a team. We’ll have 4 shooters at almost all times (unless Okoro/Stevens are out there with JA). And lineups where both bigs can shoot (Mobley + Love/Wade) are plentiful.
A lot of East teams a streaking.
Knicks have won six, Nets 5, Philly 4, Miami 3. Thise are the teams behind us. Further down, 5 in a row for Orlando.
With this homestand, we need to reel off some W’s.
Bucks and Nets will be tough games and Toronto seems to play us tough.
Statement games forthcoming…
Yep. No gimmies. Mavs & Jazz as well.
really nice to see DG find his inner dawg in the 2nd half, was taken to woodshed by Hali and responded with some fire, ride that wave DG!!!!
https://twitter.com/oldseaminer/status/1603957212640165889?s=20&t=KrLB6OZKaceorBZAxq8bbg
The 80’s called and they want to meet you at RadioShack!
😂😂😂
This world is a surreal place.
Looks like a Bounce Battle Christmas lol…
I hesitate to comment since I bailed mid 3rd quarter (and they did rally without me!), but do you guys think that once Rubio gets back & up to speed, LeVert reverts to starting at SF? JB won’t do hockey line changes, he’ll want 1 of JA/Mobes on the floor at all times. And 1 of DG/Spida will be close to it, even with Rubio back.
Starters: DG, Spida, LeVert, Mobley, Allen.
Bench: Rubio, Osman, Wade, Love
10th man: Okoro/Stevens
Spot minutes: Neto/Lopez
Inactive/Injured: Windler
It’s hard to know with Rubio. He hasn’t played in a year.
I saw Ingles was returning to the Bucks this week. I think they got hurt around the same time.
Rubio will take a while to get back up to speed, but if he’s anywhere close to 2021 Rubio, he’ll help us a ton.
is that a good idea?
LeVert is better as a sixth man. Stevens and Wade are better as starters.
you might have missed the last game where Stevens make Luka look mediocre.
Stevens on Luka was great scouting. Matchups need analysis.
NBA shoulda put Cavs on Christmas Day… their loss…
Cleveland against the world. As usual.
TALK TO EM EG!!!!
I am good with flying under the radar.
Bron got the Lakers in full Walking Dead mode…
Nuggets are a weird team… I can’t figure out how they are good outside of Joker…
Neither can they.
Murray was unbelievable before he got hurt offensively. Gordon is a nice piece who holds it all together (LNJ, Draymond, etc). Porter can rebound and is a good 3PT shooter when healthy. Joker is off the charts offensively.
Oh for sure. But that Murray injury really screwed em up.
Be great if he can get back to pre-injury form again. Always loved watching his game.
Joker is worth the ticket price.
statistically one of the biggest overachieving teams last i checked.
Warriors continue to stink it up on the road
They’re done. Wasted an epic roster with absolutely awful drafting.
No Curry for a few weeks tho also…
That stings for them. 2-14 on the road.
Without Steph, it ain’t gonna get better. He was playing out of his mind, and they were still .500.
Personally, this was my favorite game to watch so far this season, even topping the Celtics wins. Because the Pacers were absolutely playing out of their minds at least on offense—this effort would have gotten them a win in most arenas on most nights. Yet the Cavs hung in there and then took it from them in the 4th! Favorite moments: (1) Mobley splashing a no hesitation 3 off of Garland’s drive and kick to cut it to 1, from that moment I knew they would finish the comeback; (2) Garland with a “grown man” rebound with 30 seconds left… Read more »
Great points! I also loved Mitchell not letting go of the ball with Mathurin… that exchange really seemed to get Spida and the Cavs going…
my fav play, alpha dawg behavior!!!
I stopped watching & they pulledit out without me. I swear, they play better when I don’t watch.
Tonight, I was a -12 watching and they were +18 after I stopped. So my +/- was -30 for the night! I should never watch!
Amazing Spida man again, with 41. DG with 20/10.
I love that you’re keeping your own +/- stats lol…
-30 net rating. Gotta step up your game.
Nets surging… only a game behind us now.
Need to send a message on Boxing Day…
Watanabe looks like a keeper.
Time for Kyrie to say something galactically moronic. I have full confidence in him.
I was thinking the same thing. But I’m not sure I’m ready for that or the country is ready.
NGL. The hot tub did take a bit of sacrifice. But I’m glad I could be there for the team.
Junk Yard Dog right here!
It will rust in the hot tub… be careful…
Mavs also playing tonight, so that’s good news.
Terrible loss at home for the C’s… LOL
Orlando one of the few teams as long and tall as the cavs and boston
They are the only other team to beat the C’s in the Garden besides the Cavs…
Bulls also beat them in the garden
damn that’s a great stat!
LOVE IT!!!!
Sad…
Who’s not happy? What guy?
I’m hearing reports President Stevens has just shot Lucky behind the woodshed.
What? who?
This guy…
Magic beat the Celtics in Boston
Does boston have injuries or is scouting catching up with them a little? Havent paid attention. I know robert williams is trying to reintegrate
I’m not sure what’s going on over there?
only 2 1/2 back if bos falls to orlando,,
Had to miss the second half, but great to see the Cavs scrap it out!
EG LIVE THREADS UNDEFEATED!!!!!!!
Held Pacers to 18 in the last. Gonna win a lot of games with that kind of effort.
Mitchell almost out scored the Pacers in the 4th
You could feel it coming baby! JB deserves credit for the way he managed rest for DM honestly. Few complaints about JB this game honestly. He pushed a lot of correct buttons
Played an actual 9-man rotation “and” made sure to leave the 9th man (Okoro) on the bench down the stretch. Can’t argue with any of that!
Everyone got double digit mins played and Cedi and Love got 20 a piece basically. Freakin great job
Mitchell is so freaking good that he can score 40 and it’s just him doing normal Spida things. Unbelievable!
CEDI HUGE OFF THE BENCH, YOU LIKE WHAT YOU SEE JB????????????
He held serve while we got some rest for the starters…his energy and aggressiveness getting to the rim changed the way they defended us on the 4th. Love made a few key shots to end pacer runs too
YUP, JB talking about it right now…. said guys got in late from Dallas.
Cedí does not eff around after a DNP! He was focused all night – at the FT line, on D, with the ball in his hand, just everywhere.
Kinda good point yeah
Great team win, the original starting lineup with Caris at the 3 looked frigging dominant.