The Point Four-ward: Making Things Difficult
2016-02-24Four points I’m thinking about the Cleveland Cavaliers…
1.) You can say that the Cavs “struggle with success.” You can chalk it up to fatigue and call them “bed bug bitten” (though not if you’re like me and a thorough case of New York City-bred entomophobia causes you to shudder at the mere thought of… of that kind of bug). Or you can side with ESPN’s Tim Legler who, following the Cavs 96-88 loss to the Detroit Pistons Monday at The Q, broke down what he saw as the biggest self-erected barrier between the boys in wine and gold and the city’s ever-elusive championship: the tendency for LeBron James and Kyrie Irving to just dribble, dribble, dribble.
Regardless of which symptoms you choose to focus on, the disease remains real. Whenever it looks like this Cavs team has finally figured out which key goes in the ignition, they turn it only to find themselves stuck behind the wheel of a 1976 Ford Pinto.
Legler is not the first to draw attention to the problems that James’ and Irving’s over-dribbling are causing this offense. CtB’s own Ben Werth, Nate Smith and Tom Pestak discussed it in a recent podcast. But, one day after the Cavs’ offense looked crisp and balanced (and that they were actually running plays!) with James and Matthew Dellavedova manning the point, all that dried up against the Pistons with Irving’s return.
If you just look at the box score, you’d think that Irving and Kevin Love were the only players who showed up. The Cavs’ point guard scored 30 points on 11-21 shooting from the floor, including 3-7 from three, with five assists and just two turnovers. But, watching the game was a different story. Irving failed the eye test as he continuously passed up the easy play and dribbled into a more difficult one.
2.) Years ago, 82games.com ran an article on dribble/shot splits in which they factored the number of dribbles players take before a shot into efficiency league-wide. While the stats they’re using have some dust on them, they still carry some clear lessons as to what continues to ail this Cavs team.
From 82games.com:
George Karl is one of a number of coaches who preach that once you get the ball you need to do something right away otherwise you’re just allowing the defense to reset…and he’s right! In the NBA the players are so fast and so good, that any momentary advantage the offense creates can easily be nullified if the defense gets any time to react.
… The numbers though show that the worst efficiency comes with the most dribbles, so over-dribbling can be a real problem: on 6+ dribbles the league as a whole shoots a woeful .398 FG% and averages a meek 81.5 points per 100 possessions. What you’re really looking for is a guy with a great handle who also makes smart decisions, ideally being able to pass and shoot with the best.
Perhaps, it shouldn’t be surprising that the Cavs have two of the bigger over-dribblers in the league. Both James and Irving come so close to the ideal player described above. James (usually) makes smart decisions and can pass with the best. He just can’t shoot anymore. Irving, meanwhile, can pass and shoot with the best. It’s his decision making that is often questionable. So, both players can get stuck dribbling, waiting for the defense to allow them to do what they do best.
But, as James recently said of Irving after a torrid stretch of mid-range shooting, he is a player who belies advanced stats. He takes the highest percentage of his shots (38.9%) after seven or more dribbles, per nba.com, and converts those at a 51.4% clip. Only 23% of his shots are taken between 0-1 dribbles and he’s only hitting 40.4% of those shots and just 30% on catch-and-shoot jumpers.
Compare that to another scoring points guard, Steph Curry of the Golden State Warriors, who shoots… well, the way he’s supposed to. 46.9% of his shots — basically half of the many, many shots he takes (and usually makes) — are between 0-1 dribbles and he hits 52.7% of those shots.
So, when most statistical measures say Irving should be worse, he’s actually more efficient. When he should be more, he’s less.
And you wonder why it’s been so difficult for the Cavs to figure out how to run a pass-happy offense when Irving’s on the floor…
3.) Like most Cavs fans — including many of the writers on the site — the news that the Cavs had traded Anderson Varejao in a salary dump that later allowed them to acquire Channing Frye made me feel pretty icky.
It’s not that I disagreed that, from a purely on-court performance aspect, the Cavs were made better by the dealing their longest tenured player. I think they probably were, if only marginally so.
And it’s not that I think the trade disrespected Andy’s loyalty and service to the team. Varejao must have known that, following his recent contract extension that was, in turn, followed by a career-altering injury, that this day would come. He was well compensated for his time in Cleveland.
With the escalating salary cap making soon-to-be-expiring deals like Varejao’s less valuable to other teams and with the Cavs feeling every movement of the second hand on their ticking championship clock like a tremor, the team was left with only one deal to make. They dealt one of their most popular players and gave up assets to convince another team to take that player on. On Sunday, the cheers produced by the Cavs big time win in Oklahoma City just barely masked the collective groan when news broke that Varejao had decided to sign with the Golden State Warriors, making what would already be a tense Finals rematch, should it happen, just a little more… well, icky.
4.) The trade did allow for some reflection on the fine career Varejao made for himself in Cleveland. By the time he left, he was robbed of much of the quickness, athleticism and the ability to keep his motor going at full bore that he initially used to carve out a place for himself in this league. To compensate, he’d become a reliable shooter from the elbows, as well as a much better passer. He’d also become a much smarter player.
For much of Varejao’s tenure with the Cavs, he was, for me, inextricably linked to one play in the closing seconds of Game 3 of the 2007 NBA Finals. This play was later immortalized by Scott Henkle in the 2014 edition of Cleveland Jackson’s CavsZine and it went exactly like this:
That’s right. In a whirl of hair and indecision, Andy decided to take a potential game-tying shot. Clearly, not the best basketball decision.
But late(r)-career Varejao completely washed away that missed shot as my defining image of him. He was one of the few players who seemed to fundamentally understand how to play with LeBron James. Just imagine if Timofey Mozgov were able to be the kind of pick-and-roll partner for James that Varejao was… if Timo could anticipate (let alone catch and finish) a James pass rocketing through traffic that the Brazilian big man had made the bread of his offense, until his elbow jumper developed enough to be the butter.
Anderson Varejao may have come to the Cavs as a high-motor guy, but he left as one hell of a basketball player. Thanks, Andy.
In a tie game in the dwindling minutes of the 4th quarter, there is no Cav I want to have the ball more than Magnum KI
You guys are killing me… if you think Kyrie’s “dribbling” lost the game against the Pistons, you’re delusional. How about the horrific defense? How about Lebron??? He was a walking turnover and his defense was laughable Monday night! I think the Cavs would have won if Lebron sat Monday. Kyrie is a dynamic scorer on a team with Lebron James, Kevin Love and JR Smith. Let him score!! He’s the best scorer on the team. The issue is when Lebron plays iso and concedes to shooting from the outside. If and when all three stars are aggressive, their offense is… Read more »
Isaiah Thomas, Damian Lillard, Andre Miller, and our own Mo Williams are currently rated better than Kyrie in real defensive plus-minus. That is horrifying.
Offensively, Kyrie is an otherworldly talent that helps his team score. That doesn’t mean that he is doing it as efficiently as he should be, or playing intelligent basketball. Just because someone is great, doesn’t preclude him from being better. Maybe Kryie’s dribbling gets HIM into a good shot, but it doesn’t get the team into a great flow. I love watching Uncle Drew on the black top. It just gets old on the hardwood.
His defense is terrible. Against OKC he was taken off RW almost immediately because of RW torching him, so what’s he do? Gets put on Dion (safe enough, right?), and Dion immediately takes him to the hole like no one was even trying to guard him. Naturally DW blew the dunk, but that’s besides the point.
IMHO, defense is the reason to sit KI, not offense. Could and should he be better/smarter on offense? Absolutely. But defensively he HAS to stop opponents from driving so easily, especially with our poor rim protection.
Well stated. Also. I thought that KI was way too dismissive of the stats Lue put on the locker room blackboard a few weeks ago.As you’ll recall, it showed a higher shooting% based on each increase in the the number of passe for a possession. LrBron quoted the stats in his next day presser, and KI called the numbers interesting.
KI’s D has never caught up this year. Last year I thought he really improved. This year’s its been ugly. My theory is he is still not 100% with the knee, and I think he will get back to the level of last year by playoffs.
I agree, Hot Sauce. When you look at how inconsistent Irving still is on offense — his bread and butter — it’s unrealistic to expect his defense to be where it was in the latter stages of last season. ACLs and such have become so common that we take full recoveries for granted. But this was a major injury with an extended period of inactivity/limited activity, where Irving has had to consciously re-learn how to do things with his legs that were just natural before. I’m optimistic that he can become the same player he was, including an adequate defender,… Read more »
I don’t think he’s back offensively either. It’s obvious that his 3 point shot has been off, but he’s also not getting to the rim as well as in the past. Which leads to extra dribbling and more midrange jumpers, though he’s been making those.
Such a good post. Especially the point that KI’s dribbling gets HIM a good shot. Absolutely spot on. KI helps this offense the most when he is nailing 3s. I don’t give a crap about his ‘awesome handles’ unless his ‘awesome handles’ are helping the Cavs win games.
I don’t mean to undermine Robert’s piece here or any of the statistical evidences provided. Always enjoy the point four-wards, as well as when Robert is on podcasts. But this statistic of Kyrie’s shooting percentage after 10 dribbles being so high at 51.4% and then Curry’s percentage of 52.4% off 0-1 dribbles is misleading. A deeper finding is needed on how many times Kyrie dribbles over 10 dribbles in a game, How many times does he take on multiple defenders at a time. Now what is Curry’s percentage after a certain degree of off ball movement. More importantly what is… Read more »
If you don’t like those numbers how about these. The Cavs score 115.1 points per 100 possessions with Kyrie on the floor and 107.1 pp 100 with him off the floor. The next highest Cav is Lebron at 113.9 pp 100 when on the floor.
Yep. You are correct. We have 3 really good stars who are really awesome at what they do. Griffin is smart so he will keep them all.
I don’t think you can take Kyrie’s dribbling away from him, but, as Robert suggests, he really needs to work on his decision making. That’s a matter of film study and practice with teammates, i.e., when I split a double team and your defenders comes to help, you go here and I’ll go here. I’ve always thought Kyrie and Love should really work hard to develop a two man chemistry. Love is automatic near the hoop and a good catch and shoot player. If he setting pick and rolls/pops for Kyrie, it really puts the defense in a bad position.… Read more »
I think Lebron and K-Love play together tremendously. The thing with Kyrie is his handling, speed and shot making can come in handy perfectly in the open court. Getting a rebound and turning the other way to go 0-60 in 2.5 seconds is what Kyrie can do to utilize his tremendous abilities. And few in the world could it as well as him. But he needs to understand that the same does not apply in the half-court offense. You can not dribble to get to a spot, you have to pass and move off the ball to get good looks… Read more »
You make great points. I agree that Love and Lebron work very well together – I was more thinking about staggering Kyrie’s and LeBron’s court time. I also believe that the long term future of this franchise is more dependent on Love and Kyrie working well together than either of them with Lebron. Long term meaning when their current contracts expire in 4 or 5 years. How great would it be for Kyrie and Love to have the kind of synergy that Duncan and Tony Parker had after 5 years together? The only thing I might disagree with is that… Read more »
I like your comments a lot. I hope that they have the time to try out and implement some of these. I agree that there is still a lot of upside for this team. They need to maximize it. Hope that only takes about a month to do.
Interesting thoughts on Kyrie’s dribbling. Can Kyrie change his game this season? Would this be desirable? Would suggesting to Kyrie that he stop over-dribbling be like telling Lebron (or me) to stop biting his fingernails? KI’s dribble drives are both a strength and a weakness. I was hoping that maybe instead of trying to change Kyrie, that the rest of the team should move without the ball when he has it. But part of the effectiveness of his dribble drives are the unpredictability. No one knows when or where he is going to go with the ball. So for a… Read more »
Thanks Robert! Just listened to James interview from today’s shoot around. Good stuff to ridiculous questions. You can tell how much the regular season is just tune up for him, post season is totally different. Big believer that the best is yet to come and we will be playing at our best come June. Barring anything drastic we will have so many more scoring options and defense will be at least as good as last year. Pressure will then be on warriors after the golden season to win it all and we Witnessed how Lebron and grit team plays as… Read more »
Tonight two of my least favorite teams square off against each other, the Heat and the Dubs.
I agree and it will be one of the few times I will be pulling for Miami. Or maybe a Whiteside physical defensive of game.
Geez, of all the things for us to reflect on Andy, you choose that play for us to remember him by? That play isn’t his defining moment as a Cav nor does it make me feel any better that he is gone. Andy has volumes of good plays throughout his career only to be peppered by so many injuries It is the plethora list of injuries that are the bad memories not the single play from 8 years ago. I am salty to have been denied watching at least 1 year of Andy’s high energy plays that did make a… Read more »
Well said. TT has often credited Andy with mentoring him, and making him a better rebounder. We will see if Fye moves the needle any, but trading Andy certainly can’t be labeled as galvanizing the team. It would be hard to watch Andy celebrating at the Q in a GS uniform. That would be much tougher than a champagne smell in the visitor’s locker room.
His dedication to sitting on the bench and cashing checks the last 5 years was unprecedented. That’s where I see the legacy of Anderson Varejao.
That’s really disrespectful and a low blow coming from you. Why go there? He’s gone now. This was a good-bye tribute I was giving. Not sure why a conscience doesn’t kindly say to you, “IF you have nothing good to say, than say nothing”
Actually it’s about the 10th goodbye tribute you’ve given. You forgot to say how close he was to curing AIDS and inventing a vehicle that runs on water btw….
Oh, come on, Cols. There are so many players who were better at sitting on the bench and cashing checks than Varejao. I mean, wasn’t there a dude a few years ago that signed a contract just so the team could trade it? Greg Oden had a run that put Varejao to shame.
If you’re going to pick on Andy, at least pick on something he deserves, like insisting on looking like a cocaine dealer from Miami Vice.
To be fair, I said that play USED TO BE how I remembered Varejao. Went on to say that the player he developed into wiped that away.
I guess I missed the list good points you high lighted. My bad.
KYRIE IS VERY TALENTED IN HIS BALLHANDLING SKILLS AND VERY CONFIDENT ( SOMETIMES TOO CONFIDENT ) THIS IS WHAT ALLOWS FOR STAGNANT/ OVERDRIBBLE OFFENSE —-DON’T WANT TO TAKE THAT ” DRIBBLE TALENT ” AWAY FROM HIM JUST ” REEL ” IT IN —“-KNOW WHEN TO GO AND WHEN TO FLOW”
If he can hone it, he will be able to start catching bullets with his teeth!
I am starting to think that the Cavs play a lot better with Delly at the point rather than Kyrie. This would suggest that we won’t fare better against the Warriors or Spurs in the playoffs, because Kyrie will get more PT…
In any case, if the Cavs were to try to unload Kyrie, who should they target? It strikes me that they would need a backup PG for Delly (preferably, a pass-first PG); and potentially a big (efficient) scorer who could play along with LeBron or spell LeBron when he’s not on the court.
There have been games where the 3 of them can make it work. They just have to figure out how to get back to that point. I think a lot of people point to that Boston series last season as evidence.
I sure hope we don’t talk about trading him again. Game 1 of the finals he almost won that game for us. He will get more balanced and we need him to score at high clip. Playing a little more w second unit and Delly playing a little more with starters seems like a good transition but please no Kyrie trade.
Games 2 and 3 of the Finals we actually won.
Advantage, Pestak.
Maybe I am crazy, but I still think, with the proper coaching, he has time to turn himself into Steph Curry lite in how efficient he is with his actions and dribbling on offense. On the other hand, if he has truly reached his potential, well…but I don’t think he has.
Maybe, but he has yet to demonstrate that he can be a team player. Curry, for all the points he scores, strikes me as anything but selfish. I wish I could say the same for KI.
So Kyrie is more efficient on over-dribble shots, which most players are less efficient on. That’s weird, but kind of makes sense in a way. I think his handle gets him into his offense. He’s not just a catch and shoot player, but he needs to find a happy balance. Because, although he’s more efficient on those types of plays, he’s freezing the offense and letting the defense relax. It looks like Lue has started putting Kyrie in with the second unit, which might be a good thing for this type of play.
I’ve played with guys like that, whose handle let’s them get a feel for the ball. They’re tough to play with and against.
I’ll throw something else out about Kyrie’s handle – when he breaks 2 or 3 dudes’ ankles, even when there are better shots available, it starts to wear down an opponents psyche and they’ll start ignoring the other guys on the Court. The challenge for KI is recognizing when that is happening and passing off. He’s actually pretty good at it already.
I just think this becomes less reliable in the post season. You’re playing better teams and they will defend against this much better. But I think it’s effective in fast break situations to a certain extent.
GOT THE ANSWER FOR ALL OUR PROBLEMS —LET’S REUNITE BOTH KEV AND LEBRON WITH THE “STILL YOUNG ” MICHAEL BEASLEY ———SARCASM !!!………..WHAT A SHAME– HAD IMMENSE TALENT / IMMENSELY POOR ATTITUDE !!!—–WILL ANYONE GAMBLE AND PICK HIM UP
BED BUGS / BACK TO BACK / OVER DRIBBLE / NEW COACH–NEW PROCESS ——GOING TO STAY AWAY FROM ” PANIC BUTTON MODE ” THE REST OF THE REGULAR SEASON —–CHILL /RELAX / DRINK SOME ALES AND ENJOY CAVS BASKETBALL——COME THIS MAY / JUNE EITHER WE “DO ” OR WE ” DON’T ” AND THEN REGARDING THE OUTCOME —LET THE OPINIONS / NARRATIVES FLY …………. HOPING FOR A ” BOUNCE BACK ( NOT OVER DRIBBLE ) GAME ” TONIGHT —-GO CAVS !!!————-APPPEARS AS IF KEVIN MARTIN MIGHT BE MORE OF A CAVS TARGET THAN JOE JOHNSON –DID NOT KNOW MARTIN WAS… Read more »
Only problem with Martin is that he is probably the worst defender in the league.
Agreed. I’m not sure we need more offense. We need to play better defense.
Yeah, I was interested in Martin a couple years ago when he could at least still stay in front of someone. I knew he was from Zanesville because so am I!
What I’d really love to see is Memphis let Vince Carter go. I’d love to have him for 10 minutes a night, especially with Shump injured. VC and RJ are both smart vets with skill that can give you 10 good minutes, but they’ll die if you play them more than 20.
I know its fun to complain about the offense, particularly aesthetic elements of it that contrast with some ideal vision that everyone has in their head (based on the silly notion that GSW’s approach can be replicated without the historically unique roster/collection of talent they have), but the Cavs offense is very very very efficient. When you have LBJ, KI, KD, RW, CP3, BG, JH, etc., it is efficient to use ISO concepts in your offense. I DO AGREE the Cavs can be even better, and that KI (as insanely good as he is on O) can get even better… Read more »
In short, my main thesis is that people are just mad when we lose and happy when we win, and then make up narratives to fit their emotions.
#AppreciateThisTeam #ItsReallyGoodButItWillStillPlayBadGamesSometimes #BadGamesDontRequireNewDeepTheoriesAboutBasketballStrategy #TheyAreJustOneGame
You said it. I almost quoted you from a day ago. We love and hate the ISO here based on the win column.
The issue is where the isolation is and how much dribble is involved. When LeBron catches and holds, especially in the post or on the wing, he’s a triple threat. But when he dribbles the air out of the ball from above the elbow, his efficiency goes down, and his shot becomes much more predictable. Robert is not arguing against isolation or post ups, he’s arguing against slow decision making and lazy offense that allows the defense to reset when the ball swings.
I do think that when Love gets the ball in the post, it has a better chance to be passed back to someone if the shot isn’t there. When Kyrie gets to his dribbling mode, the ball too many times never gets to anyone else, and he drives too much into heavy traffic.
Boom. Yep. This exactly. Hot Sauce should write for this site.
The defense is more concerning to me. We’ll lose to GS in 5 if we don’t get to playing the great defense we played late last year and in the playoffs.
There’s no reason we wouldn’t. In fact it’ll probably be better.
But love or lebron postups at least get a relatively high percentage, close range shot that has far more potential of drawing fouls than a 20 foot midrange jump shot. Still not ideal offense for us normally, as good defenses can usually trap or loadup on postups without some off ball cutting to draw help away. However the cavs were scorching from three that game. JR made some ridiculous shots that are not going in normally. By normally, I mean not likely 4 out of 7 games against a defense that contests really well. James also shot well from 3.… Read more »
Im chalking it up to being tired on a btb. Yep the Cavs aren’t the Warriors or Spurs. If Lebron rested as Lue said he should have we’d be done with this game. We’ll see how they look rested tonight.
Your first two points are interesting ones. Many on CtB recoiled when Irving-for-Conley proposals were floated, and I get it. Irving is young, dynamic, and locked up for years. But the games in which Kyrie sits (which in effect, mimics trading him for no return) our offense actually plays BETTER. It wouldn’t take much convincing for me to trade Kyrie, as long as the PG we’d get back can shoot and defend. Unless Lue and the team are able to make this work somehow. My fear is that a Finals (or pre-Finals) loss would cause an offseason shakeup in which… Read more »
Also, Kyrie is a scoring machine. But in reality, most opposing PGs end up being scoring machines on nights they play the Cavs.
I agree. If anyone becomes a casualty – assuming we get the right players(s) – in the off season; it should be KI and not Love. Preferably neither, if we can play great defense against the Warriors. I have to think that in the locker room and/or the film room; Lue has got to be telling KI to stop the dribblemania. KI just gets torched too much on defense, and unless he plays a stellar offensive game, too often it’s a wash for his offense vs defense. For my eye test, the caveat is that I do wear glasses, Love… Read more »
Actually you’re wrong; They may look better without him, but with him they score more. The offense with KI on the floor has a ORtg of 115.1 which is the best on the Cavs. His defense isn’t very good to be sure, but as far as offensively, he’s not the problem.
Good stuff, as always, Robert. My question: why aren’t you on more CtB podcasts??
Thanks for the kind words MikeO. My podcast absence is just schedule-related. I’m sure I’ll be on one soon.
You should definitely be on.