Kyrie Irving Is The Best One-On-One Player In the League, So What?
2017-08-18Ever since Kyrie Irving asked to be traded away from the Cavs, there has been a lot of talk about what he can bring to another team. The consensus seems to be that he is an amazing one-on-one player. He may even be the best one-on-one guy in the NBA right now. And, I see no reason to debate that.
Irving has cemented his legacy in Cleveland with that skill. It’s in a banner in the rafters. It’s also in the minds of thousands of Cavs fans who can still remember him rising up over Stephen Curry to score a contested 3-pointer in game seven of the NBA Finals, which ultimately won the Cavs the title.
That shot came after the Cavs had bounced back from being down 3-1 in the series. That shot came after neither team had been able to score for three minutes and 56 seconds. That shot came after arguably the best block in NBA history.
And, when I tell my someday kids about that finishing blow, I will mention all of the above to them and show them the clip of it. It will be a quick clip, probably just five second long, the amount of time Irving took to size up Curry and launch after Klay Thompson switched off of him. I will conclude my remarks saying, “that’s ‘The Shot’ that replaced Michael Jordan’s soul crushing ‘The Shot,’ (which sent a Finals bound Cavs team home early in 1989).”
I’m a Cavs fan though. I’m not a general manager in the NBA. GMs saw all the same things as me in June of 2016, but they remember a tiny bit more about that shot.
Here’s the thing about Irving’s shot in that game seven: it was actually anything but a one-on-one play in the most literal sense. What came before The Shot matters and who was on the floor is what really matters. After J.R. Smith inbounded the ball to Irving out of a timeout, he set a screen for him on Klay Thompson. The Warriors were forced to switch Curry onto Ky.
They were forced to switch solely because of the threat of 3-point shooters the Cavs had on the floor. Richard Jefferson shot 39.3% from 3-land during the title run. Kevin Love shot 41.4%. The King hit 34.0% of his long attempts, and J.R. Smith drained 43.0% of his tosses, while Irving was shooting 44.0% from downtown. The Cavs were red hot from deep; the Warriors were scared. That shooting is ultimately what allowed Irving to square up against Curry. The Warriors couldn’t cheat and help at all with the group of Cavs that was on the floor for that shot.
Other teams know that, and that’s the biggest reason why Irving won’t get traded for the haul a lot of people think he will.
Irving is ultimately the same player he was three years ago before James returned home. He rocked a plus-minus of -3.1, -3.0, and -3.1 his first three years in the league. When James returned, he posted plus-minuses of +5.6, +3.9, and +4.6 in each the following regular seasons (playoff numbers of +4.2,+6.9,and +6.9). Those are solid numbers at first glance for sure, but those are LeBron bolstered numbers.
During the regular season last year when LeBron was off of the floor Irving had a rating of -1.3. He posted a rating of +6.1 when he shared the floor with him. And, when it really mattered in the playoffs, Irving was -1.7 with him off the floor and +8.6 with him on it.
With Kevin Love on the floor, Irving was a+6.4 and +.5 with him off of it. It’s clear Irving benefits from having the league’s best player next to him.
When Irving played without LeBron, he really struggled last season. His offensive rating went down from 117.5 to just 103.1. That non-LBJ offensive rating is what some of the bottom ten teams in the league had in the regular season. And, that’s not some weird number that Kyrie wasn’t influencing. His usage rate was a world crushing 41.7% when James sat, up from 26.8% when he had to share the floor with him. He scored more when looking at per 36 numbers, but his make percentage went down and his turnovers went up.
If those numbers don’t make you question how effective Irving is, let’s have a gander at some of his non-LeBron lineup numbers. During the regular season, the most used lineup for Irving that didn’t feature James had RJ, Love, TT, and Shump in it. They played a total of 46 minutes and were -3 during that time, -0.2 per game. His next most featured non-King group included Love, Shump, Smith, and TT. They played for 39 total minutes and were just +4 over the year, +0.3 per game.
Those numbers are throw back numbers to the dark days of the Wine & Gold. The Cavs super lineup of the 2013-2014 season, the lineup that was supposed to propel them to the playoffs and a fifth seed if you read any of the nonsense I spouted back then, consisted of Spencer Hawes, Luol Deng, Irving, Jarrett Jack, and TT. They put up a positive rating of +0.7 per game. When Irving was teamed with C.J. Miles, Deng, Anderson Varejao, and TT, they were +1.4 per game. I don’t want to go too far and say Irving has digressed as far as carrying a unit goes since LeBron returned, but he sure hasn’t improved much.
And, that fact means a lot. Teams are noticing this stagnation. He’s not like other stars that have wanted to venture out on their own or just leave to a different situation.
When Kevin Durant left the Thunder after the 2015-2016 season ended, he was +5.2 with Russell Westbrook on the floor and +0.5 with him off of it. That’s not the same drop off Kyrie experiences when the King sits.
And, when you look at the James Harden trade to Houston, which occurred after the 2011-2012 season, Irving’s numbers are even more revealing. When the beard left the Thunder, he was posting a plus-minus of +5.9. When he shared the floor with Kevin Durant, he was +4.8, and when Durant was off he was +1.1. When he shared the floor with Russell Westrbrook, he was +4.6. He was +1.3 when Westbrook sat. Again, Irving doesn’t have that same ability to keep a team in the positive when their best player sits leaving him as the main man. This Harden example is especially poignant; it’s the only comparative of a guy leaving a team with two other super-stars.
I don’t think anyone will ever really understand why Irving wants to leave a team that is a lock to make the Finals for the fourth straight year and go to a team he probably won’t be able to get into the playoffs, but I have a theory behind his thinking. It’s easy to think the grass is greener other places. Irving probably could be the face of a franchise elsewhere. He could score more. He could take even more shots, despite taking the most on the Cavs and having the highest usage rate on the team. The grass very well might be greener for him in a new place.
It won’t be green for his teammates though. That’s the part of leaving the Cavs that Kyrie is missing. The Shot was the result of everyone on the floor standing on some finely manicured grass. Opposing players couldn’t help but stand on that pretty landscaping and see what it was doing. When Irving leaves and gets his own team, there’s sure to be some players on it with weeds in their yards. There will be some players with dirt too, even burnt crappy straw like grass in their yards. And, no opposing players want to stand on some sub-par yard coverings. They are all going to head over to the pristine turf Kyrie has manicured for himself. When that happens, the best one-on-one player in the league isn’t going to be playing one-on-one anymore. Any team that trades for Kyrie in the coming months is asking, “can Kyrie be the best one-on-two player or even best one-on-three player in the league?”
https://twitter.com/BryanAGraham/status/899681898196324352
Makes more sense accompanied by this…
https://twitter.com/lukezim/status/899682994516090880
I can see why Gilbert fired Griffin for not making that trade. Oh well.
Why you think it was Griffin? Gilbert was supposedly the one that wouldn’t pull the trigger without LBJ committing. Gilbert didn’t want to pull trigger. Stop defending Gilbert by twisting facts.
I think Griffin got fired for not trading Kyrie for Bledsoe and PG. No wonder Gilbert was mad at him.
If there was really a scenario where the Cavs ended with Bledsoe and PG for Ky, and Griff didn’t do it, he deserved to get fired. I highly doubtful there ever was.
Griff knew how Cols jumped on anyone who didn’t think KI was perfect, and he was worried that this trade would set him off, and take his attention away from WarriorsFan!
Sounds like Gilbert nixed the deal when Lebron would give him no assurances. So if you should be mad at anyone, it should be Gilbert. (if that trade was even on the table) But I know you have your alternative facts that conform to your world view.
BTW, Griffin wasn’t fired, he quit. That’s at least equally true as your lame ‘fired’ assertions.
BELIEVE IF LAKERS ARE GUILTY WE ARE TALKING OF LOSING DRAFT PICKS ( OH DARN )——WISH THIS SUMMER OFF SEASON WOULD HURRY AND ” ECLIPSE ” INTO TRAINING CAMP —-35 DAYS I BELIEVE UNTIL THEN !!
Paul George Tampering? http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20398462/magic-johnson-los-angeles-lakers-being-investigated-possible-tampering-regarding-paul-george
Doubt anything happens with this, as it sounds like this happens all the time.
It probably does happen all the time. But this time, a team has filed a formal complaint, and an investigation is ongoing. Hard to say if anything will come of it. The story has a couple slight connections with the Cavs.
AND, …, the fact that Kyrie won’t talk to the team, …, ??
Dan Gilbert did the same thing when LeBron bolted to Miami:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thestar.com/amp/sports/basketball/2010/12/01/report_cavs_probing_possible_tampering_by_miami_to_sign_lebron_james.html
Things seem to be shaking out differently in this case. Like the article states, it is hard to prove anything. So my guess is that this goes nowhere. But who knows.
Teacher tells his kids not to be a coward like a Durant.
https://sports.yahoo.com/teacher-tells-students-not-like-kevin-durant-much-chagrin-kevin-durant-190342487.html
Nice! Should also mention what charities durant could have supported with the $10m a year he spent on further stacking his own deck
That is one clueless teacher, who has no right to influence students with his personal bias. Am pretty sure there were lot more articles like this came when Lebron went to Miami. This is strange world when a bigot not only have voice, but rule the country. Durant is one of the nicest person in NBA, of course that wouldn’t stop some people have the narratives they chose to go with. No one is more loyal to their team than KD, the most undeserving fans.
Great article by OKC fan, goes real deep on KD’s departure and OKC’s fans.
http://www.theroot.com/oklahoma-city-fans-need-to-check-their-history-before-t-1790855900
Teachers calling out Durant and you can’t handle it. Sucks for you man.
Read that article
Why would I? Durant choked away a 3-1 lead then joined the team that beat him. That’s cowardice. The teachers know this and use Durant and the perfect example of a coward. It’s wonderful.
Read that article or you should shut up about Durant, one of the nicest guy, very competitive and
While Lebron was filming for ‘The decision’, Durant simply tweeted that he extended with OKC. There is lot more to why Durant left to OKC than you will ever understand.
Teachers “Now, for an example of extreme cowardice, see Kevin Durant”
You two are secretly married, aren’t you?
sorry, I take an exception of you putting me in the sentence as that guy, who is as clueless as it gets, trumpf of the blog.
Nope, that is your stupid take.
Ok, pump the breaks man. This is basketball the teacher is talking about. A sport. And while many of us, myself included, take sports very seriously, as someone who has taught in a classroom and is married to a teacher, influencing students on favorite athletes and sports is not high up on the list of things teachers have no right to do… Not even ESPN concerns themselves with remaining unbiased about sports…
You just said this: “No one is more loyal to their team than KD.” If you can’t objectively see that that is a dumb comment, you are blind. I would say the same thing about LBJ. Dude is not loyal to his team. Most players aren’t. Doesn’t make them bad people, but don’t act like KD was loyal. He clearly wasn’t. Doesn’t matter that he’s a nice guy.
1. The supposed trade everyone is talking about comes from a Chris Broussard report in FTS.
2. How often does Chris Broussard know what he is talking about?
3. FTS is kind of a mix, but a large fraction of the writers there are beyond clueless.
4. Even the FTS writer says something like “if this is true”.
5. Nothing is said about why the Suns would make that trade then, but won’t now.
This trade was out there after the draft (but there was a lot of noise), so it’s not the first I’ve heard of it. But also, perhaps the suns didn’t think Jackson would drop to fourth. The moral of this story is that you don’t leak trade details till the trade happens,even if it is to try to get LeBron to commit long term.
The Pacers would have said no because they didn’t want to trade George to the east. I think it’s Griffin sour apples.
Cols will find the leaker!
Point 5 is a good one. I am skeptical that the report is 100% true. Maybe bits and peices of it are partically true. I personally hope its not true.
I think a disgruntled unemployed Griffin is leaking stuff to make him seem like the hero so everyone blames Gilbert and LeBron.
Fact Check: Pants on fire! ?
Either that, or Gilbert makes terrible decisions related to basketball. Wonder which one is more likely?
Let’s see: Gilbert opened his checkbook to get LeBron. What decisions are you talking about?
Opening his wallet for Kay Felder? Writing a ridiculous letter slamming the best player in the game? I’m sure there is much more….oh, firing a good GM and not having a backup in place? There’s more…
Hiring Mike Brown twice.
You should think about becoming a white house press secretary
Great piece… https://articles.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2017/08/the_old_man_and_the_seat_why_r.amp
Alright, I’ll chum the water:
http://www.slamonline.com/nba/kyrie-irving-thought-lebron-james-wanted-trade-him/#WQWxu1uT77mIkCht.97
https://twitter.com/oldseaminer/status/898756538172669952
I am so annoyed Gilbert didn’t pull tigger on Bldesoe/George trade (assuming it was real). That is a huge upgrade.
Also, the report that LBJ wouldn’t commit even with that trade on the table is not great (if true). I know everyone here assumes LBJ will 100% re-sign. But most of those arguments center on the idea that CLE offers the best chance to maximize chips. If he is trying to maximize chips AND is 100% not leaving, why would he not jump at that deal?
I mean I get why he wouldn’t commit a year out. PG would potentially be a 1-year rental.
I guess. If LBJ is 100% staying, I am pretty sure he could convince PG to sign on with a team of Bledsoe, PG, LBJ, Love, TT, Rose/Smith/Korver/Green/Shump, etc.
Yes probably right, especially if they win the championship.
Whether Lebron gave them any assurance or not, if that trade was on the table, they were morons not to do it.
I agree.
Double agree.
Triple agree. You can’t double stamp a triple stamp!!!
A truly great player would have leapt at that deal and said I am in. A truly great owner would have made the deal anyway.
Well that puts Irving’s decision into more perspective. Clearly felt jilted, though Love has gone through the same thing multiple times and hasn’t reacted the same way.
Enjoyed the piece, David. Kyrie is a weird player. Theoretically, he has a couple years to go to hit his peak, but he is injury prone, lackadaisical on defense, can be a ball stopper, and makes baffling decisions late in games. However, he is an absolute closer with the ball late in games, if, as David noted, the shooters are there to get him a one-on-one look. He is also a closer at the free throw line. He has absolute skills for making difficult shots and drives but seems to have tunnel vision and at times an inability to run… Read more »
Has anyone noticed that the trade machine isn’t working correctly?
How so?
It’s failing trades that should pass, and not giving reasons. Seems more common with multi-player deals.
I thought you meant the insane trades people were putting in it. It probably went bad like a washing machine with an off balance load!
I must have broken it! Oops!
I noticed it as well. But Cedi is now available in a trade.
Great stuff, David!
The most important skill in basketball is not the ability to make tough shots but the ability to get easy shots. It’s what separates MJ from Kobe. Kobe is the greatest tough shot maker ever- nobody scares the bejeezuz out of the opponents when going for the game winning shot than Kobe. Yet Kobe is ranked outside of the 10 greatests ever by most experts .
38 DAYS ( ROUGH ESTIMATE ) UNTIL TRAINING CAMP STARTS ——-PLEASE HURRY !!—–WANT TO START READING / TALKING / POSTING ABOUT “REAL ” BASKETBALL INSTEAD OF ” SUMMER MELO-DRAMA’S AND KY-JINKS “——–MOUTUMBO CLOSE TO ASSEMBLING GROUP TO PURCHASE THE ROCKETS DOES THIS MAYBE INTICE LEBRON TO LOOK AT GOING TO HOUSTON
Kevin Durant Weighs In On Cavaliers’ Situation
August 18th, 2017 at 4:38pm CST • By Chris Crouse
It may seem like the Cavaliers have a unique problem on their hands with Kyrie Irving requesting a trade. However, Kevin Durant tells Chris Haynes of ESPN.com that trade requests routinely occur behind the scenes without the media learning of them.
“It’s just a regular NBA problem, right? A lot of teams have gone through this before,” Durant said. “They’ll figure it out. That’s a great organization, a championship organization. They’ll figure it out.”
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2017/08/kevin-durant-weighs-in-on-cavaliers-situation.html?fv-home=true&post-id=72334
BTW, best ISO player(closest to 1-1 player stat) based on AFG% for reg season was Kyrie
For playoffs(among players >8 playoff games) it is Derozan closely followed by Curry.
http://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/#!?CF=PPG*GE*2:GP*GE*8&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=aFG&dir=1
Reg season: http://stats.nba.com/players/isolation/#!?CF=PPG*GE*2:GP*GE*8&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=aFG&dir=1
LeBron is the best 1 on 1 player in the NBA. Durant is 2nd. Then there’s a dropoff. It may not look better for a 6’10 guy to beat anyone off the dribble and make a layup, but it’s waaay more efficient than a midrange off the dribble. Especially for LeBron, who’s left-handed but equally strong with his right. Kyrie is probably the best shotmaker in the league, overtaking Kobe’s mantle. He is a truly an awesome offensive player, and he’s unstoppable when he’s going. But his value is in his potential – his offensive potential is as high as… Read more »
Left handed LeBron? https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=AwrBT7QyUZdZGBsA.cNXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0M3UyOWI4BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjM5MzZfMQRzZWMDcGl2cw–?p=lebron+shooting&fr2=piv-web&fr=tightropetb
He’s left handed but shoots right. Writes with his left hand, etc.
I’m the same. I shoot, bat, etc. with my right hand, but write with my left. You could consider me LeBron 2.0. Key word there is “could.”
THOSE NUMBERS /STATS ARE SOMEWHAT DECEIVING AS YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER WHO ( HERCULOIDS ) HE WAS PLAYING WITH ( TEAMMATES ) SO NO MATTER WHO HE MIGHT BE TRADED TO HE WILL HAVE A BETTER CAST OF PLAYERS SURROUNDING HIM ( ALBEIT NOT LEBRON )—-THINK ALOT OF G.M.’S ARE SMART ENOUGH NOT TO GET CAUGHT UP TOO MUCH IN THE ” + / – ” NUMBERS GAME AND JUST VIEW THE PLAYER AND POTENTIAL THAT KY BRINGS
Yep. Smart guys like Zach Lowe have talked about how super valuable Irving’s skills are in today’s NBA.
What? There certainly isn’t that guarantee, and David’s point about Shooters is salient.
Kyrie will probably get into a similar situation as another off guard, Allen Iverson with 76ers. Allen Iverson had green light to score anyway possible when he had the rock. He was surrounded by role players and defense first players. Iverson, in the meanwhile, hit the floor more than I ever seen because he was the only offensive threat. So, bottom line, Kyrie can be successful in his own way as an inefficient player who can lead a team to playoffs in east if the team is tailor made for him which itself will take couple of years. If I… Read more »
And Kyrie will probably once again get riddled with injuries, because he has to carry the offensive torch.
Iverson single handedly carried his team to the Finals. One of the greatest players ever. And he never once begged and cried for another player to come save him.
lol, he was not all saint as you are making him out. Did you forget that he was colliding with coaches all the time, missing practices etc..
Better than begging on your hands and knees….
lol, are you dreaming about Curry ? do you get those images in your mind ? If Cavs had cap, Lebron would have recruited Durant too. You are clueless and don’t get things normal.
Nah. LeBron has proven he is the best player on a championship team. Curry has yet to show he can do this. Iggy was MVP in 2015 Finals.
News for you, Curry, not Iguodala should have been MVP. Curry didn’t get MVP because he fell short of his own standards, the defensive attention Curry gets helps others in the team. Warriors know this(don’t tell anyone), Curry was the man behind Durant’s performance, up by >10% in TS%, Curry is behind that. Of course, Lue realised after two games that focusing too much on Curry meant open lanes and dunks for Durant, little too late. You are jealous, you so wish that Kyrie is Curry.
You went off the edge on this one. LeBron should have been the MVP. He was vastly better than anyone else. Curry was so/so, far from MVP. Remember that they followed tradition of almost always picking someone from the winning team, and the best they could do was Iguodala because he slightly slowed LeBron down enough for the Warriors to win, but only after Love, Irving, and Delly were out. The Cavs probably win that series 4-0 will a full team.
Sorry, disagree with that. Warriors were simply better team. Warriors would have still won that championship. You saw how much Kevin Love helps against warriors. Any case, I won’t offer any excuses for warriors blowing 3-1 lead, Cavs won fair and square that one.
btw, Lebron did everything he can and should to win in that series but in the process he became a player he didn’t really enjoy being, a volume shooter and inefficient shooter, low %ages unheard for MVP.
Can someone pls start warriors:the blog so I dont have to worship at durant and curry’s knees every other thread?
I didn’t start warriors conversation but noted.
Everyone buy two are happy to have you here. But, you are dreaming if you think the warriors were an easy win two years ago. It would have been 50/50 if Delly hadn’t gone down. With Love and Irving, you think the first two games would have gone to overtime? Not! It would have been 3-0 when the dubs pulled out the Igoudoua defense plan, which would have had to work for four straight games. Love or Irving or both would have had a couple hot games.
Thanks Raoul. I don’t have a problem with your narrative, the ‘ifs’ is what makes sports intriguing. Warriors were holding back on starting Iguodala though they knew that was their best lineup. Mozgov(along with Delly) was x factor in Cleveland getting up 2-1 lead, Kyrie and KLove, it was their first playoffs, they wouldn’t have made much difference int he finals. Infact, Cavs lost the game Kyrie played 40+ minutes but won next two with Delly playing bigger role.
Plenty of evidence suggests that the Warriors weren’t holding back on starting Igoudala because they wanted to wait for some “key point” in the series or whatever to make the switch. The “death lineup” if you will, was statistically significantly less effective when it was used as something other than a change of pace lineup. That was one of the reasons why it was a big deal that Bogut went down. After he was no longer able to anchor that team, they needed to use the death lineup for longer minutes. It allowed the Cavs to adjust and helped us… Read more »
btw, I think you will enjoy this article, https://sports.yahoo.com/teacher-tells-students-not-like-kevin-durant-much-chagrin-kevin-durant-190342487.html
Zach lowe’s article on the same topic.
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-good-and-bad-of-the-lebron-juggernaut/
I’ve said this here before, but while I am no fan of Iverson’s game, I agree with you, he dragged a crappy team to the Finals. Unless KI changes a LOT, I don’t see him doing that. Also, Iverson was if nothing else tough as nails, something I wouldn’t exactly say about KI.
Great work David! Enjoyed the article.
Nah. Irving is awesome and one of the top few guys who can score in tough situations like the playoffs. That’s what makes him so valuable and so hard to replace. You can get a guy to be a cog in the regular season, but come playoff time you need guys like him or else you end up losing because you rely on a system and don’t have the talent to pull through.
I think you’re missing the point though. The point is that his trade value may not be as high as we’d like it to be. If he were being traded to a team like the Spurs with another elite talent (Leonard) and a great system, he’s super valuable. The Spurs don’t have the assets to trade for him. If you trade him to a team like Phoenix that actually has the assets we’d like in return, you have to hope Phoenix believes they can build around him as the #1 guy. I think the article speaks to the fact that… Read more »